PC Upgrade Advice - Mobo & memory

My intention a solid bang-for-buck Win XP PC without an interest to
upgrade. Paying extra upfront for future upgrade possibilities never
seems to be quite worth it. I'm a gamer and I'm still doing my
homework, but one of the harder parts about building a PC is making
sure I don't bottleneck the system by one component or another. That
said, I'm looking for some advice for how to best compliment the
following core hardware components. Beyond that, although I've done it
in the past, I'd rather not mess will overclocking anymore unless it's
extremely mild. I'm looking to make a purchase within the next couple
months. My plan is to buy again in a couple years.

I'm building the PC around these components.
Radeon 1900 GT 256 MB (possibly upgrade to the XT if prices fall but
probably not)
Intel Core 2 Duo Conroe E6400 (possibly E6600 instead)

Motherboard:
I haven't seen any very recent reviews on motherboards offering full
support for the Conroes and I am a little confused by the chipsets
although it seems I should be getting the 975. Maybe I should be
waitng for the mother boards to catch up to the conroes? Again, no
concern for overclocking, just stability and the usual modern
offerings. I'm not fully educated on SLI, but it doesn't seem like a
good bang for the buck option being that I'm not interested in
upgrades.

Memory:
I'm really not sure how much memory would be appropriate to my choices
for CPU and graphics card. I was thinking 2 GB. Will "value" memory
be okay considering I don't have an interest in overclocking?

Any advice is appreicated as well as links to get more information,
reviews etc. Thanks if you can help!

Jim

Value memory sometimes requires manually setting, allmost 'underclocking',
its dependendent on combination of memory/mobo/cpu
Visit Toms Hardware Guide for reccomendations.


wrote in message
oups.com...
My intention a solid bang-for-buck Win XP PC without an interest to
upgrade. Paying extra upfront for future upgrade possibilities never
seems to be quite worth it. I'm a gamer and I'm still doing my
homework, but one of the harder parts about building a PC is making
sure I don't bottleneck the system by one component or another. That
said, I'm looking for some advice for how to best compliment the
following core hardware components. Beyond that, although I've done it
in the past, I'd rather not mess will overclocking anymore unless it's
extremely mild. I'm looking to make a purchase within the next couple
months. My plan is to buy again in a couple years.

I'm building the PC around these components.
Radeon 1900 GT 256 MB (possibly upgrade to the XT if prices fall but
probably not)
Intel Core 2 Duo Conroe E6400 (possibly E6600 instead)

Motherboard:
I haven't seen any very recent reviews on motherboards offering full
support for the Conroes and I am a little confused by the chipsets
although it seems I should be getting the 975. Maybe I should be
waitng for the mother boards to catch up to the conroes? Again, no
concern for overclocking, just stability and the usual modern
offerings. I'm not fully educated on SLI, but it doesn't seem like a
good bang for the buck option being that I'm not interested in
upgrades.

Memory:
I'm really not sure how much memory would be appropriate to my choices
for CPU and graphics card. I was thinking 2 GB. Will "value" memory
be okay considering I don't have an interest in overclocking?

Any advice is appreicated as well as links to get more information,
reviews etc. Thanks if you can help!

Jim

I'm typing this on the new Conroe system I just built this weekend after
months of research. It's working great.

CPU: E6600, the least expensive Conroe with 4MB cache, but not cheap
(currently best price is $337 from zipzoomfly). However, I suspect that
in 60 to 90 days, it will be under $300. I was going to wait, but the
motherboard in my 2002 system died over labor day weekend so I had a gun
to my head.

Motherboard [note, I did not need or want dual video cards, which would
change the equation significantly]: The current chipsets available for
Conroe include some variants of the 945 (not all 945's support Conroe,
but some do), the 965 and some (but not all) variants of the 975. [Just
because a motherboard uses a chipset that supports Conroe does not
automatically mean that the motherboard supports conroe; the chipset is
necessary but not sufficient.] I quickly rejected 945 products, they
are VERY low end. Generally, 965 motherboards are in the $150 range and
975 motherboards are in the $250 range. For my purposes the 975
products offered no benefits, since I didn't need/want either dual video
or WiFi on the motherboard. That led to a "short list" consisting of three:

-Asus P5B
-Gigabyte GA-965P-DS3
-MSI P975 Neo-F

All 3 of these boards are in fact substantially identical in terms of
the substance of their architecture. They are all Intel 965's with
Intel ICH8 and a supplemental SATA/IDE controller made by JMicron.

I rejected the Asus because I still need an RS-232 serial port and the
P5B was downright stupid in how it handled this (there is a port on the
board, but they made actually using it almost impossible (there is NO
rear connector for it and they don't give you an expansion slot bracket
to connect to the serial port header)).

I ended up going with the Gigabyte GA-965P-DS3, but I can't tell you
exactly why I chose it over the MSI. I had grave misgivings as I was
waiting for it to arrive, because I was expecting to get a board with
the F3 BIOS, and the F3 (and earlier) BIOS' on this board have SEVERE
memory compatability problems to the point where with almost all memory
(and I mean the VAST majority of memory) they won't even post so that
you can upgrade the BIOS (clearly a fatal flaw unless you just happen to
have the right memory). As it happened, however, my board (from Zip
Zoom Fly) came with the F4 bios whichhad all of this nonsense fixed (F5
is out now and that's what I'm running).

The board has been great so far, I'm very happy with it, and obviously
as time goes by, the chances of anyone getting a board with one of the
problematic older BIOS' will quickly decrease. There's a thread on
alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.gigabyte (sheesh!) that covers problems other
people had with this board due to the memory issues in the early BIOS',
and my own experiences installing Windows. Because all of these 965
boards are so very similar, much of the information in my own posts
about OS installation applies as well to the other motherboards as well
(in particular the quirks of installing an OS on a drive connected to a
chip other than the main motherboard chipset).

The Gigabyte board normally sells for $154, but on Friday Newegg had a
one-day unadvertised sale on it at $134. They have done this several
times in the past as well, so if you watch their web site, you may save $20.

Gigabyte just introduced a version of this board with onboard chipset
video, the motherboard is the GA-965G-DS3, it uses a new version of the
965 from Intel with "Graphics Media Accelerator X3000". This is pretty
high-end for chipset video, up to 384MB of video memory, it fully
supports WDDM drivers (e.g. it will run Vista's "Aero" interface) and
the price is the same as the non-video version. So for low end systems,
it might be the way to go if you don't need a serial port (!) or DVI
video output (the VGA connector replaced the serial port connector ...
the port is still there but no longer has a rear connector, just like
the Asus board).

I don't know why I rejected the MSI P965 Neo-F, but it's a bargain
motherboard, it's price bounces between about $95 and $110, and, again,
it's architecturally almost identical to the Asus and Gigabyte boards.

For video, I'm using an AIW 2006 PCI-Express becuase I'm addicted to
being able to watch TV on the computer. But for straight, more
conventional low end video, I'm told that the best low-cost board is the
MSI RX1300 Pro (based on the Radeon X1300, about $90 and reportedly
superb for the money although obviously not a high-end board). Of
course, for a low-end system that new Gigabyte board with onboard
chipset video might be worth considering.

For memory, I ordered and would suggest The Corsair "twin pack" of two
matched 512MB modules (1GB total) of DDR2 800MHz (PC2-6400),
TWIN2X1024A-6400 1GB Kit DDR2-800 XMS2-6400, $121. This is Corsair's
recommended memory for all 3 of these motherboards. If you want to
spend more, you can get a 2GB kit (or two 1GB kits), or lower latency
modules. If you want to spend less, get 533MHz speed instead of 800MHz.
DO NOT GET 667MHz (or any speed between 533 and 800), your performance
will go DOWN. But this particular memory kit is a nice compromise of
everything ... cost, speed, headroom for overclocking.

Hope that this is helpful.



wrote:

My intention a solid bang-for-buck Win XP PC without an interest to
upgrade. Paying extra upfront for future upgrade possibilities never
seems to be quite worth it. I'm a gamer and I'm still doing my
homework, but one of the harder parts about building a PC is making
sure I don't bottleneck the system by one component or another. That
said, I'm looking for some advice for how to best compliment the
following core hardware components. Beyond that, although I've done it
in the past, I'd rather not mess will overclocking anymore unless it's
extremely mild. I'm looking to make a purchase within the next couple
months. My plan is to buy again in a couple years.

I'm building the PC around these components.
Radeon 1900 GT 256 MB (possibly upgrade to the XT if prices fall but
probably not)
Intel Core 2 Duo Conroe E6400 (possibly E6600 instead)

Motherboard:
I haven't seen any very recent reviews on motherboards offering full
support for the Conroes and I am a little confused by the chipsets
although it seems I should be getting the 975. Maybe I should be
waitng for the mother boards to catch up to the conroes? Again, no
concern for overclocking, just stability and the usual modern
offerings. I'm not fully educated on SLI, but it doesn't seem like a
good bang for the buck option being that I'm not interested in
upgrades.

Memory:
I'm really not sure how much memory would be appropriate to my choices
for CPU and graphics card. I was thinking 2 GB. Will "value" memory
be okay considering I don't have an interest in overclocking?

Any advice is appreicated as well as links to get more information,
reviews etc. Thanks if you can help!

Jim

I'll do some more homework. Anandtech is another fav of mine. Thanks
Dl.


DL wrote:
Value memory sometimes requires manually setting, allmost 'underclocking',
its dependendent on combination of memory/mobo/cpu
Visit Toms Hardware Guide for reccomendations.

Thanks for taking the time to offer your long reply Barry.


Barry Watzman wrote:
I'm typing this on the new Conroe system I just built this weekend after
months of research. It's working great.

CPU: E6600, the least expensive Conroe with 4MB cache, but not cheap
(currently best price is $337 from zipzoomfly). However, I suspect that
in 60 to 90 days, it will be under $300. I was going to wait, but the
motherboard in my 2002 system died over labor day weekend so I had a gun
to my head.

I do like the E6600 of course, but considering bang for the buck I may
settle for the 6400. I'll keep an eye on the prices.


Motherboard [note, I did not need or want dual video cards, which would
change the equation significantly]: The current chipsets available for
Conroe include some variants of the 945 (not all 945's support Conroe,
but some do), the 965 and some (but not all) variants of the 975. [Just
because a motherboard uses a chipset that supports Conroe does not
automatically mean that the motherboard supports conroe; the chipset is
necessary but not sufficient.] I quickly rejected 945 products, they
are VERY low end. Generally, 965 motherboards are in the $150 range and
975 motherboards are in the $250 range. For my purposes the 975
products offered no benefits, since I didn't need/want either dual video
or WiFi on the motherboard. That led to a "short list" consisting of three:

Yes, this is the issue for me. I know I want a Conroe and I dual cards
isn't the best way for me to go either so no need to pay more for
SLI/Crossfire. I won't engage you too far in chipset discussions
because I obviously need to do more study. I'm unclear the advantages
of the 976 over 965 but I agree the 945s are too low end for me to
consider.




-Asus P5B
-Gigabyte GA-965P-DS3
-MSI P975 Neo-F

All 3 of these boards are in fact substantially identical in terms of
the substance of their architecture. They are all Intel 965's with
Intel ICH8 and a supplemental SATA/IDE controller made by JMicron.

I rejected the Asus because I still need an RS-232 serial port and the
P5B was downright stupid in how it handled this (there is a port on the
board, but they made actually using it almost impossible (there is NO
rear connector for it and they don't give you an expansion slot bracket
to connect to the serial port header)).

I ended up going with the Gigabyte GA-965P-DS3, but I can't tell you
exactly why I chose it over the MSI. I had grave misgivings as I was
waiting for it to arrive, because I was expecting to get a board with
the F3 BIOS, and the F3 (and earlier) BIOS' on this board have SEVERE
memory compatability problems to the point where with almost all memory
(and I mean the VAST majority of memory) they won't even post so that
you can upgrade the BIOS (clearly a fatal flaw unless you just happen to
have the right memory). As it happened, however, my board (from Zip
Zoom Fly) came with the F4 bios whichhad all of this nonsense fixed (F5
is out now and that's what I'm running).

Wow, whatta headache. Glad you doged that bullet.


The board has been great so far, I'm very happy with it, and obviously
as time goes by, the chances of anyone getting a board with one of the
problematic older BIOS' will quickly decrease. There's a thread on
alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.gigabyte (sheesh!) that covers problems other
people had with this board due to the memory issues in the early BIOS',
and my own experiences installing Windows. Because all of these 965
boards are so very similar, much of the information in my own posts
about OS installation applies as well to the other motherboards as well
(in particular the quirks of installing an OS on a drive connected to a
chip other than the main motherboard chipset).

The Gigabyte board normally sells for $154, but on Friday Newegg had a
one-day unadvertised sale on it at $134. They have done this several
times in the past as well, so if you watch their web site, you may save $20.

BTW, I've been using pricewatch.com to compare prices but they don't
seem to include ZipZoomFly even though ZZF often has the lowest prices
and as far as I know they are pretty reputable. Can you recommend a
better price comparssion website? (I've used NewEgg a lot in the past
for purchases)


Gigabyte just introduced a version of this board with onboard chipset
video, the motherboard is the GA-965G-DS3, it uses a new version of the
965 from Intel with "Graphics Media Accelerator X3000". This is pretty
high-end for chipset video, up to 384MB of video memory, it fully
supports WDDM drivers (e.g. it will run Vista's "Aero" interface) and
the price is the same as the non-video version. So for low end systems,
it might be the way to go if you don't need a serial port (!) or DVI
video output (the VGA connector replaced the serial port connector ...
the port is still there but no longer has a rear connector, just like
the Asus board).

I don't know why I rejected the MSI P965 Neo-F, but it's a bargain
motherboard, it's price bounces between about $95 and $110, and, again,
it's architecturally almost identical to the Asus and Gigabyte boards.

For video, I'm using an AIW 2006 PCI-Express becuase I'm addicted to
being able to watch TV on the computer. But for straight, more
conventional low end video, I'm told that the best low-cost board is the
MSI RX1300 Pro (based on the Radeon X1300, about $90 and reportedly
superb for the money although obviously not a high-end board). Of
course, for a low-end system that new Gigabyte board with onboard
chipset video might be worth considering.

Well, as mentioned, I'm a gamer, so I might have to go in an entirely
different direction here.


For memory, I ordered and would suggest The Corsair "twin pack" of two
matched 512MB modules (1GB total) of DDR2 800MHz (PC2-6400),
TWIN2X1024A-6400 1GB Kit DDR2-800 XMS2-6400, $121. This is Corsair's
recommended memory for all 3 of these motherboards. If you want to
spend more, you can get a 2GB kit (or two 1GB kits), or lower latency
modules. If you want to spend less, get 533MHz speed instead of 800MHz.
DO NOT GET 667MHz (or any speed between 533 and 800), your performance
will go DOWN. But this particular memory kit is a nice compromise of
everything ... cost, speed, headroom for overclocking.

I've used Corsair in the past with good success, but I'm still not sure
how much memory will best compliment my target video card & CPU.
Thanks for the warning on the 667. I think Anandtech did a review on
this as well.



Hope that this is helpful.

It really did. Thanks for taking the time to help!