Dell 8200 HD problems:

Mark Twain wrote:
I took your suggestion and went to
Staples and they said there's
a 14 day return policy and that
I can have the package delivered at
the store for pickup but opening it up
is not allowed. So it is what it is.

So I did it, I bought this:

http://www.staples.com/Dell-Optiplex...product_109033

total price with tax $182.74 and will
have it shipped to the store for pickup.
So how did I do?

In passing, I think the 8200 may of died.
I just had it going the other day but cancelled
a Avast scan and it powered off ok but today
I can't get it to boot normally and I tried
several times and I tried going into Safe Mode
with Networking which worked but nothing else
does so I finally tried a System restore and
it did come back and said it was successful but
it still refuses to boot normally and I did
check the bios (boot order).

Thoughts/suggestions?
Robert

Let's hope soon, you'll have the new machine and
can make a fresh start at things, for a second machine.

I think your purchase is a DT, and the power supply in it
is a little bit non-standard (shape). The best machines
are the full sized ones (MT), with standard parts, and the smaller
they get, the harder they get to find repair parts when
needed. This is one reason I find the even smaller
machines to be a less good bargain (SFF or USFF), as they're
so small, they use really hard to find power solutions.

Paul

So I screwed up and should of bought a
MT instead. I went by the reviews and
specs but didn't think of parts replacement.

So is the 8200 gone?

Thanks,
Robert

Although I purchased it, I wonder if I
can just return it when it arrives to
buy a MT instead?

http://www.staples.com/Refurbished-D...roduct_1241679

Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
Although I purchased it, I wonder if I
can just return it when it arrives to
buy a MT instead?

http://www.staples.com/Refurbished-D...roduct_1241679

Robert

You would have to add a graphics card to that one.

The GMA4500 would be barely adequate for a Windows 7 box.
That is Intel chipset graphics, from before Intel figured out
how to make good chipset graphics. You use a $50 video
card to make things work a bit better.

For example, if Firefox uses GPU acceleration, the GMA4500
probably would not qualify as "acceleration". I have hardware
like that here too, where there are no programmable shaders
or other graphics fluff, to make stuff run smoother.

*******

Regarding your purchase, I wouldn't panic. It was
just a comment about my personal preferences in
design. My feeling/hope is, that by buying the larger
items (mini-tower), there are better odds of being able
to visit the local computer store, select parts, and fix them.

You could, assuming the motherboard is microATX on your
purchase, move the components into another computer case,
a larger case with ATX supply. As an example of an alternative
solution. Only the FP Header wiring might be a challenge,
and some after-market cases have separate wire pairs
with the right spacing for the job.

I no longer purchase computer cases here, as a way
to discipline myself with regard to purchases. If
I want a computer case, I have to clean out one of the
older computers, and use the case that is freed up :-)
That's how I got my Test Machine - by kicking out a
Core2 motherboard, to make room for new hardware. Before
that, I would just go out and buy yet-another computer
case :-) By limiting the number of computer cases in
the house, that slows me down a bit.

Paul

I don't want to be stuck with something
a year or two down the road and I can't
find parts for and I don't have your
expertise to remove all the components
and put them in another case. I would end
up with a pile of wired mess.

I still think my best option at this
point is to return it on delivery and buy
another but I don't know which MT to select?

http://www.staples.com/refurbished+c...with+windows+7

I've already spent $183 and I could add say
$150 to that but I'm trying to keep the cost
down as much as possible.

Robert

Ok, I just called Staples and talked to the
manager and he told me that I can change the
computer but its better to do it asap. So
could I prevail upon you to please peruse
through the link above and select the best MX?

Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
I don't want to be stuck with something
a year or two down the road and I can't
find parts for and I don't have your
expertise to remove all the components
and put them in another case. I would end
up with a pile of wired mess.

I still think my best option at this
point is to return it on delivery and buy
another but I don't know which MT to select?

http://www.staples.com/refurbished+c...with+windows+7

I've already spent $183 and I could add say
$150 to that but I'm trying to keep the cost
down as much as possible.

Robert

One other model is Dell 780. I see a couple listed.
Now, the first problem is, the Staples advert may
not have exactly the right specs. The 780 machines
have Q45 chipset, so should have the same default
VGA graphics. The expansion slots include PCI Express,
although the Staples advert called them "PCI".

http://www.dell.com/downloads/global...idebook_en.pdf

http://www.staples.com/DELL-780-Towe...roduct_1498887

Dell 780 Tower
Intel Core 2 Duo 2.93GHz (could be E7500 w. 3MB cache)
(chipset graphics - one VGA connector)
(Slot config - unknown)
4GB Memory DDR3 (Dell says max 8GB, subject to BIOS version)
750GB hard drive
DVD-RW Drive
305W PSU
Win7 Pro
16"x17"x7.4" (mid-tower)
$295

http://www.staples.com/Refurbished-D...roduct_1241679

Dell 780 Tower
Intel Core2 Duo 3.0GHz (could be E8400 w. 6MB cache)
(chipset graphics - one VGA connector)
4 PCI slots --- likely to be wrong - it has a PCI Express video card slot
3GB Memory DDR2 --- likely DDR3
750GB hard drive
DVDROM Drive (doesn't burn)
305W PSU
Win7 Home
16"x17"x7.4" (mid-tower)
$146

So it's hard to figure out their pricing. Why is the
second one so cheap ? The DVD drive could be replaced
with a burner for $20. The OS is the Home Premium version
(doesn't support WinXP Mode, won't do domain join). The
Pro version of OS supports more RAM, but neither machine holds
enough RAM for that to matter.

The power supply should be

3.3V @ 8A \__ max 80W
5V @ 16A / combined
12V1 @ 15A \__ max 240W --- 12V1 = all others (incl video card)
12V2 @ 10A / combined --- 12V2 = CPU power rail (65W CPU)
5VSB @ 4A --- USB power
-12 @ 0.5A

This might be the power supply, but I can't be sure.
If you put a $50 video card in the machine at some
point in time, the power supply shouldn't have a problem
with it. You could probably get away with a 100W
video card, as long as the computer case cooling
fan is a good one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DELL-OPTIPLE...-/271151674745

*******

This third pick, is similar to the first one for $295,
except this one has an i5-2400 quad core (4 Core 4 Thread,
meaning no HyperThreading). So this has twice as much
CPU when rendering movies as the $295 one, and is $250
in price.

http://www.staples.com/Refurbished-L...roduct_2072640

Lenovo M81 Tower (weird faceplate)
i5-2400 quad
(Intel HD Graphics 2000 inside CPU, memory connects to CPU)
(Slot config - unknown)
4GB Memory DDR3 (max RAM should be higher)
1TB hard drive
DVD-RW Drive
280W PSU
Win7 Pro
16.3"x17.4"x6.9" (mid-tower)
$250

You can see the goofy plastic thing on the top of the case.

https://support.lenovo.com/ca/en/doc...hx?w=430&h=294

The power supply in the ThinkCenter M81 is 280W. Looks to be
a regular one. Just the floppy connector looks a bit weird.

http://www.amazon.com/45J9432-Switch.../dp/B00ZSXJMNK

http://www.cbo-do.de/shop/product_in...er-TS200V.html

3.3V @ 17A
5V @ 16A
12V @ 18A --- 95W CPU, video card, drives on one shared rail
-12V @ 0.3A
5VSB @ 2.5A

HTH,
Paul

I appreciate you taking your time to
do this; I don't want the home version
so that automatically eliminates the
second choice. The Lenovo M81 sounds
the best as far as specs (quad Core)
but I've always had good luck with Dell
computers and the 780 (duo core)sounds
pretty good as well.

Are you saying that even if I maxed out
the RAM in the 780 it wouldn't matter?

Aside from movies would I see any noticeable
difference in performance between the M81
and the 780? I'm sort of leaning toward the
780, since all my computers have been Dell
and I've had good luck with them.

Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
Ok, I just called Staples and talked to the
manager and he told me that I can change the
computer but its better to do it asap. So
could I prevail upon you to please peruse
through the link above and select the best MX?

Thanks,
Robert

I was working on it. It just takes time :-)

(Today I'm working on a project in the back
yard too... Time multiplexing.)

Paul

I think I'm going to go for the 780
over the M81 but I noticed that the
780 only has a 750GB HD. Couldn't I
upgrade to a 1TB or more as well as
max the RAM and new graphics card?

I suppose I couldn't take the Nvidia card
out of the 8200 and put in the 780?

Any other thoughts/suggestions?
otherwise I will opt for the 780.

Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
I appreciate you taking your time to
do this; I don't want the home version
so that automatically eliminates the
second choice. The Lenovo M81 sounds
the best as far as specs (quad Core)
but I've always had good luck with Dell
computers and the 780 (duo core)sounds
pretty good as well.

Are you saying that even if I maxed out
the RAM in the 780 it wouldn't matter?

Aside from movies would I see any noticeable
difference in performance between the M81
and the 780? I'm sort of leaning toward the
780, since all my computers have been Dell
and I've had good luck with them.

Robert

I think part of my comparison was focused
on the weird pricing. Having a quad core machine
available for less money than a dual core machine.

With refurbished goods, their pricing should be
set by their perceived desirability. In effect
"what the market will bear". Say for example, I
study the pricing individual sellers are using
on Ebay (a Pentium III machine worth $100 or something).
These are data points that another seller might use,
to set a price.

And so I was a bit surprised by the price ratio between
the items. When I buy stuff, I usually look at the
pricing as a "signal". For example, if someone
was trying to move some of those Optiplexes with
the close-to-100% motherboard failure rate, I would expect
the price on those to be very low. And that reflects
that "refurbished" does not include putting money
or effort into correcting design defects (re-capping
the motherboards that had the leaking capacitors).
That's why you have to be careful with the Optiplex models
from years ago, as some had very high failure rates.

So when you're shopping for refurbs, you want to
check for any past history of high failure rates.
You would do a Google search as in...

Dell 780 leaking caps

and see if you get any actual hits for that.

But other than that, the pricing should be "rational".
And reflect value the seller thinks the machine has.

For example, in foreign countries, P3 computers go for
relatively cheap. While P4 computers were quite expensive,
almost unobtanium for the buyers. And that represented
the supply available (what you could buy in that
country). You could draw a graph from the data in
that market, and spot the trend the sellers were
using.

But on the Staples refurbs, seeing a price ratio of
a factor of 2 on two machines of similar capabilities,
makes you wonder how they're setting the prices. Whether
the pricing messages inherent problems with the
machines (nope, same model). I refuse to believe
the OS on the machine, makes that much difference
to the pricing.

So out of the Staples list, those were three that looked
like regular-sized computers, where you might have better
options for repair and upgrade.

*******

No, the 8200 video card is AGP. It won't fit in any
of the Staples machines with PCI Express for a video
card slot. If you found the graphics weren't fancy
enough on the refurb, you could still go shopping for
a $30 to $50 video card as a refit. You have to
verify whether the machine takes regular height
or low-profile video, before going shopping.

Similarly, if the machine didn't have an optical burner
(i.e. DVDROM read-only), as long as the machine has
SATA ports and a 5.25" bay, you can easily fit a burner
for $20 yourself. That's if that happens to be important
to you. I have a burner in an external enclosure, and
that solves some problems with "burner" versus "machine".
Some of my computers are so old, they lack USB boot, and
so you can't use my "burner in enclosure" as a boot
device on them. But I occasionally connect the portable
burner to some of the older machines.

*******

The issue with maximum RAM, that's the "memory license"
of the OS. On the x86 (32 bit) OS, the technical limit
should be the 64GB limit imposed by the original PAE
design. Yet, the OS is artificially limited to 4GB.
The idea being, the perception that some "driver"
issue would prevent the usage of RAM above 4GB.
So to a large extent now, this is marketing at work,
not entirely practical issues.

Version Limit on X86 Limit on X64

Windows 7 Ultimate 4 GB 192 GB
Windows 7 Enterprise 4 GB 192 GB
Windows 7 Professional 4 GB 192 GB
Windows 7 Home Premium 4 GB 16 GB ---
Windows 7 Home Basic 4 GB 8 GB
Windows 7 Starter 2 GB N/A

Now, the Home Premium limitation is annoying, in that
for people with x64 OSes, they could have a machine
that holds 32GB (4x8GB sticks) and then the OS
limitation affects their ability to use the
memory slots to their full potential. When Microsoft
cherry picks these numbers during product design, they
should at least choose numbers that won't impose misery on
an unsuspecting public.

On the Test Machine, I had to buy Professional, because
I had more than 16GB of memory. So that allows me to use
all the memory in that case.

I don't know if the Dell 780 goes above 16GB.

Now, if it uses Q45 chipset, I could always use
a datasheet to look up what it uses.

http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www...-datasheet.pdf

FSB = 800MHz, 1067MHz, 1333MHz
(the 2.93GHz processor, could be 1067MHz, which
when divided by four gives 266Mhz * 11 multiplier = 2.93GHz)
(the 3.0GHz processor, could be 1333Mhz, which
when divided by four gives 333Mhz * 9 multiplier = 3.00GHz)
More FSB means slight memory performance improvement.
Not enough to notice.

Memory support - this tells me, if Dell wanted, they could
ship motherboard designs with either type.
I can't really validate the Staples info using
this table, because either type of memory is possible.
Once a motherboard is designed with a specific type,
that can't be changed (the sockets are different).

DDR3 800, 1067 2GB per slot, 8GB total max capacity if 4 slots on motherboard
DDR2 667, 800 2GB per slot, 8GB total max capacity if 4 slots on motherboard
MicroATX boards can have 2 slots, full ATX can have 4 slots.

Southbridge types
ICH10/ICH10R
ICH7/ICH7R --- might allow an IDE drive cable
Otherwise, probably not all that important

When you see the machines at Staples with 3GB or 4GB of memory,
then you know that the max they could hold is 8GB (using a
64 bit OS, and not needing Professional to go to the max).

*******

The 780 motherboard architecture looks like this. It's
the same design concept as the computer I'm typing on.

Core2
|
| FSB1333
|
2 or 4 DIMM slots -- Q45 --- PCI Express x16 Rev2 video slot
|
| DMI bus
|
ICH7/ICH10 --- SATA drives

Whereas, on the Lenovo, it might be like this. (This
is the same architecture idea as my Test Machine.)
The Lenovo might be the next generation, one that gets rid
of the Northbridge chip, and puts the Northbridge inside the CPU
chip itself. This eliminates the FSB as a (slight) bottleneck.

CPU
2 or 4 DIMM slots -- i5-2400 --- PCI Express x16 Rev2 video slot
|
| DMI bus
|
PCH --- SATA drives

One advantage of the older Northbridge design, is if the
Northbridge happens to have additional PCI Express lanes.
For example, the machine I'm typing on, is like this.
And I bought it so I could have two x16 slots.

Core2
|
| FSB1333
|
2 or 4 DIMM slots -- X48 ----- PCI Express x16 Rev2 video slot
| ----- PCI EXpress x16 Rev2 video slot
|
| DMI bus
|
ICH9R --- SATA drives

They can use different Northbridges, to give the
same processor family different slot configurations.
I have a spare x16 PCI-E slot, I could put a $1000 RAID
card in it if I wanted, knowing it wouldn't have
bandwidth restrictions. Say, some day if PCI Express
SSD hard drives become reasonably priced, I could
plug one of those into the spare slot (not that
I plan on doing that).

But for the most part, these are minor difference
when you're trying to make your browser run at
a decent speed :-) That's affected more by the
stupid browser design, than any amount of hardware
you can throw at it. Like, the annoying trend to
using the graphics card to help with things.
(Flash uses hardware acceleration in the video
card, as well as some of the browsers.) I think
my Test Machine is barely modern enough for
all the video acceleration to work. I'm not a
big buyer of fancy graphics cards. My budget is $50
most days.

Paul

Understood,..

I have to agree the pricing is a bit
odd but considering the prices of
everything these days this just may
be another form of price gouging.

So the 780 it is.

Robert

Actually, since I'm returning the 760
I have a little time to consider do I
want a refund, or store credit because
I've looked at others.

https://www.google.com/#q=dell+compu...m= shop&spd=0

and from the link above:

http://www.dell.com/us/p/inspiron-38...8&isredir=true


http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/in...b6671:c&ven2=:

https://www.google.com/#tbm=shop&q=c...7+professional

http://www.staples.com/Refurbished-D...Fcdhfgod5CUJFA

http://www.staples.com/Refurbished-D...FYRrfgod-KAKdg

http://www.staples.com/Refurbished-D...FY17fgodzRINPA

What do you think?

Robert

Just read more reviews of the 780 and
everyone likes them and calls them
workhorses but you said they had a bad
reputation for the motherboards failing
didn't you? That's the only reason I
started looking at other computers
and to see if something better was out
there.

Robert

I did do a search for Dell 780
leaking caps and I found this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

so quite a few computers were
affected.

Robert