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#31
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Space reserved for System Restore files
On 3/2/16 1:17 PM, Brian Gregory wrote:
On 02/03/2016 02:09, Ken Springer wrote: But 15% of a 1TB drive is a lot different than 15% of a 250GB drive. The only thing that has any meaning is a fixed number. I guess the idea is that a big drive is likely to have more stuff installed on it which will sometimes get updated and might need to be restored if things go wrong. But most likely all that extra stuff is your personal stuff in downloads, documents, etc. which should be unaffected, AIUI. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.5 Firefox 44.0 Thunderbird 38.0.1 "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!" |
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Space reserved for System Restore files
On Wed, 2 Mar 2016 18:39:30 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote: In message , Char Jackson writes: On Tue, 01 Mar 2016 20:03:47 -0500, Paul wrote: J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: In a similar way, I never understood (this is going back several OS versions, possibly even to 3.1!) the adage of always setting a page file size (I think that's what it was) a fixed multiple (e. g. 3) of the amount of RAM you've got. As I saw it, if you had _more_ RAM, you needed [] There used to be advice floating around, probably some 15+ years ago, about [] checking the performance counter to see how much pagefile had been used. You'd be looking at the high water mark, rather than current usage. Once you're satisfied that your normal usage isn't going to push the high water mark any higher, you simply add a safety margin and now you know, as precisely as possible, what value you should use. You then set the Min and Max sizes to that value. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to revisit that once or twice a year because your software mix and usage habits might change over time. It seems like my OS back when I followed that advice was a Win 9x flavor. I think the bit about setting min and max to the same was mostly so that a page file of fixed size gets generated, and thereafter uses the same piece of disc (I think the recommendation was also to do it just after a defrag); if the OS was allowed to vary the size of the pagefile, it could end up fragmented, which of course had a significant effect on performance. Well, yes, of course, but that's a very minor point in the grand scheme of things. Much more important, relatively speaking anyway, is to make an educated guess on what those two settings should be. That's where running a performance counter comes into play. That's 99% of it, with the same setting for min and max being the other 1%. |
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Space reserved for System Restore files
On 3/2/16 12:27 AM, ...winston‫ wrote:
Ken Springer wrote: On 2/29/16 9:23 PM, ...winston‫ wrote: Ken Springer wrote: Back in the XP days, the amount of recommended space for System Restore was 15% of the hard drive size. I've been looking for some similar recommendations for newer system, especially since W10 has System Restore off as the default. But I've found none. Looking for thoughts and suggestions. SR is off the default in Win10. The primary reason - with Win10 providing major o/s updates[currently on the second update(aka 1511)with the 3rd(16xx)expected to be released this summer]any prior SR point becomes useless after an o/s update. Personally, that's a p*** poor reason. It certainly does the user a disservice should they have an issue SR may have been able to fix. So what if every major update breaks the restore point? That's no different that Windows 7 breaking the points in Vista. The point is, the user had a viable option for the X months release X is in use. And you're also assuming the user will actually update, provided MS is not its current less than honorable in the practice of forcing things on users they may not want. i.e. if enabling System Restore make a note to reset it after each and every major update. In fact, it may be appropriate to wipe all SR points and disable prior to installing a major Win10 update and only before creating an image of the System and Boot Volume(Win10's System Image and o/s partitions). I'm looking for recommendations of a starting point after a W10 install on someone else's computer. Then it becomes the user's decision as to what to do, presuming the user is computer literate enough to consider the situation. While not exactly the same, it's not too different than not being able to use SR to return a Win7Sp1 to Win7RTM. Uninstall SP1 via WU was necessary (unless one imaged prior to SP1). The 'Go Back' recovery option only available for 30 days has a similar 'primary' reason - but more time-restricted... anytime after 30 days MSFT believes(after a major W10 upgrade) too much end-user changes become possible(tweak, tamper, install software, replace hardware, etc.). I don't blame them for this, if they bothered to explain it to the people who feel "tricked" into something they don't want. I spend a whopping 9 hours a week at a PC repair shop, and we are always getting people in who don't like W10 or the upgrade failed in one way or another, and want to revert to where they come from. I wonder if MS tracks that info. And I also wonder what the numbers would be if MS made Internet Explorer as visible on the desktop as Edge is. They might not be good reasons for everyone, but the current Win10 game is played on MSFT's field and they have, and most likely will for some time...the home field advantage, and so far, if not already apparent, they are also providing their own umpire. But, with a little education, they might move to a different playing field. I've 2 nice systems that came with Vista, although as I write this, not sure either one works. Retrieved them from a pile of systems headed for recycling at work. If they work, I'll be installing Linux. At the school district for the area where I volunteer for a social agency, 7th grade and above use Ubuntu for their computer labs. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.5 Firefox 44.0 Thunderbird 38.0.1 "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!" |
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Ken Springer wrote:
I spend a whopping 9 hours a week at a PC repair shop, and we are always getting people in who don't like W10 or the upgrade failed in one way or another, and want to revert to where they come from. I wonder if MS tracks that info. If upgrade to 10 fails from 7/8x multiple forms of telemetry collected data are reported. And I also wonder what the numbers would be if MS made Internet Explorer as visible on the desktop as Edge is. Neither IE or Edge is/was present as a clickable option on my W10 devices desktop. MSFT could have done a better job providing information on how to make IE the default browser - that's unlikely to happen any time soon with resources now focused on its replacement - Edge. But...a simple search finds this as the first hit Search term - How to make internet explorer default over edge http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/i...owser#ie=ie-11 IE is also available on the All Apps but unlike Edge(which is on the main All Apps menu), IE is found on the Windows Accessories menu group(iirc one the the places it existed on earlier o/s). Imo, for some tasks, each(IE and Edge) is better than the other. If they work, I'll be installing Linux. At the school district for the area where I volunteer for a social agency, 7th grade and above use Ubuntu for their computer labs. In my school district starting in 3rd grade iPads are in use by students in the classroom and also by instructors for a deployment of a variety of curriculum. For students with English as a second language, currently Japanese and Hispanic, after school programs(3days/week and Sat. A.m.) iPads are also in use as tools for learning the English language, it's history and geography. -- ....winston msft mvp windows experience |
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Neil wrote:
On 3/2/2016 2:06 AM, ...winston‫ wrote: Neil wrote: On 3/1/2016 8:35 PM, Paul in Houston TX wrote: Neil wrote: On 2/29/2016 11:23 PM, ...winston‫ wrote: SR is off the default in Win10. The primary reason - with Win10 providing major o/s updates[currently on the second update(aka 1511)with the 3rd(16xx)expected to be released this summer]any prior SR point becomes useless after an o/s update. i.e. if enabling System Restore make a note to reset it after each and every major update. In fact, it may be appropriate to wipe all SR points and disable prior to installing a major Win10 update and only before creating an image of the System and Boot Volume(Win10's System Image and o/s partitions). So... one wipes all SR points, installs the major Win10 update that screws up their system (again), and then what??? SR's won't be of any value since they would not apply to what is effectively a new O/S. Clone or image prior to major upgrades. I was making a point about the increasing amount of unpredictable down-time that is being foisted on businesses by Win10's update policies. The reality is that a lot of the hardware and applications that businesses depend on are *way* behind even Windows 8.1. Unless one can indefinitely delay (if not completely avoid) those updates cloning and imaging will not help. Business running Enterprise version are not seeing the Win10 update. if a business is not running an Enterprise version, then if not having a sound backup plan for existing devices to restore(image, clone, redeploy) when running 7/8x the business would be at risk and one might even say foolish. On the Win10 side business should be using W10 Pro or Enterprise - each providing the option to delay or even disable Win10 upgrades. If using Win10 Home instead of Pro or Enterprise - they may have made the wrong choice of o/s. Though I agree that businesses need to select the appropriate OS version, the solution may not be as easy. If the material that Mayanaya presented a while back regarding MS' definition of "enterprise" and "pro" is correct, the implication is that either those policies have changed or people are being misled and will be in for a rather rude awakening. Options are evolving for both Pro and Enterprise editions in the Enterprise business user base, what's declining are the options that were previously available to SMB using Pro. -- ....winston msft mvp windows experience |
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On 3/3/16 11:02 AM, ...winston‫ wrote:
Ken Springer wrote: I spend a whopping 9 hours a week at a PC repair shop, and we are always getting people in who don't like W10 or the upgrade failed in one way or another, and want to revert to where they come from. I wonder if MS tracks that info. If upgrade to 10 fails from 7/8x multiple forms of telemetry collected data are reported. Maybe we'll see fewer issues in the future, but I'm not betting the farm on it. G And I also wonder what the numbers would be if MS made Internet Explorer as visible on the desktop as Edge is. Neither IE or Edge is/was present as a clickable option on my W10 devices desktop. MSFT could have done a better job providing information on how to make IE the default browser - that's unlikely to happen any time soon with resources now focused on its replacement - Edge. Microsoft could do a better job of providing information... period. I personally think 8 might not have been the massive flop if they had done this. Sadly, I don't see any new patterns or learning from the past with W10. But...a simple search finds this as the first hit Search term - How to make internet explorer default over edge http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/i...owser#ie=ie-11 In the systems I do for friends and others, I usually make Firefox the default. IE is also available on the All Apps but unlike Edge(which is on the main All Apps menu), IE is found on the Windows Accessories menu group(iirc one the the places it existed on earlier o/s). It's also pinned to the taskbar by default in the systems I've done. What baffles me is, why make IE and accessory and not treat it like it has in the past? All the way back to and include XP, it's always been very easy to find in the Start Menu. Sometimes, I wonder if they over think issues, and end up pi$$ing off users, which is never a good thing. Imo, for some tasks, each(IE and Edge) is better than the other. I find Edge to be very irritating to use. I've never liked IE from the beginning, and have always used an alternative browser. If they work, I'll be installing Linux. At the school district for the area where I volunteer for a social agency, 7th grade and above use Ubuntu for their computer labs. In my school district starting in 3rd grade iPads are in use by students in the classroom and also by instructors for a deployment of a variety of curriculum. For students with English as a second language, currently Japanese and Hispanic, after school programs(3days/week and Sat. A.m.) iPads are also in use as tools for learning the English language, it's history and geography. Ah, affluence. It's a good thing to have. That does not apply to the district mentioned, which is why I suspect Ubuntu is used. I also wouldn't be surprised to find out many of the computer systems have been donated rather than purchased new. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.5 Firefox 44.0 Thunderbird 38.0.1 "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!" |
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Ken Springer wrote:
On 3/3/16 11:02 AM, ...winston‫ wrote: Ken Springer wrote: I spend a whopping 9 hours a week at a PC repair shop, and we are always getting people in who don't like W10 or the upgrade failed in one way or another, and want to revert to where they come from. I wonder if MS tracks that info. If upgrade to 10 fails from 7/8x multiple forms of telemetry collected data are reported. Maybe we'll see fewer issues in the future, but I'm not betting the farm on it. G There's probably not an RTM o/s where an upgrade from a prior o/s did not have diminished upgrade failures in its future. And I also wonder what the numbers would be if MS made Internet Explorer as visible on the desktop as Edge is. Neither IE or Edge is/was present as a clickable option on my W10 devices desktop. MSFT could have done a better job providing information on how to make IE the default browser - that's unlikely to happen any time soon with resources now focused on its replacement - Edge. Microsoft could do a better job of providing information... period. I personally think 8 might not have been the massive flop if they had done this. Sadly, I don't see any new patterns or learning from the past with W10. But...a simple search finds this as the first hit Search term - How to make internet explorer default over edge http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/i...owser#ie=ie-11 In the systems I do for friends and others, I usually make Firefox the default. I use SeaMonkey in one profile as the default browser. ....but your comparison was about IE vs Edge on the Desktop not a 3rd party client. IE is also available on the All Apps but unlike Edge(which is on the main All Apps menu), IE is found on the Windows Accessories menu group(iirc one the the places it existed on earlier o/s). It's also pinned to the taskbar by default in the systems I've done. What baffles me is, why make IE and accessory and not treat it like it has in the past? All the way back to and include XP, it's always been very easy to find in the Start Menu. IE, recently, andl in the future, continue to be the browser that MSFT has and will reduce development and resources - no longer demanding front-and-center visibility. Sometimes, I wonder if they over think issues, and end up pi$$ing off users, which is never a good thing. Imo, for some tasks, each(IE and Edge) is better than the other. I find Edge to be very irritating to use. I've never liked IE from the beginning, and have always used an alternative browser. MSFT learned quite a few years ago that browser choices were a given. As noted above, resources are dedicated to Edge not IE, and they are most likely and knowingly willing to handle any and all criticism for IE and Edge. If they work, I'll be installing Linux. At the school district for the area where I volunteer for a social agency, 7th grade and above use Ubuntu for their computer labs. In my school district starting in 3rd grade iPads are in use by students in the classroom and also by instructors for a deployment of a variety of curriculum. For students with English as a second language, currently Japanese and Hispanic, after school programs(3days/week and Sat. A.m.) iPads are also in use as tools for learning the English language, it's history and geography. Ah, affluence. It's a good thing to have. That does not apply to the district mentioned, which is why I suspect Ubuntu is used. I also wouldn't be surprised to find out many of the computer systems have been donated rather than purchased new. Affluence is part of it, but also being a magnet school has a factor. Another factor, and just as important Apple used the school system as a pilot providing equipment at marginal cost...and relatively close to home to MSFT ex-CEO's(Ballmer) K-12 backyard. Calculated ? Absolutely! -- ....winston msft mvp windows experience |
#38
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On 3/5/16 2:07 AM, ...winston‫ wrote:
Ken Springer wrote: On 3/3/16 11:02 AM, ...winston‫ wrote: Ken Springer wrote: I spend a whopping 9 hours a week at a PC repair shop, and we are always getting people in who don't like W10 or the upgrade failed in one way or another, and want to revert to where they come from. I wonder if MS tracks that info. If upgrade to 10 fails from 7/8x multiple forms of telemetry collected data are reported. Maybe we'll see fewer issues in the future, but I'm not betting the farm on it. G There's probably not an RTM o/s where an upgrade from a prior o/s did not have diminished upgrade failures in its future. Agreed. But it somehow feels to me like MS had no clear idea of what/where they wanted to go, just a very broad or nebulous idea of what they were looking for. So they threw this out there to get the feedback, and make changes. Possibly making it free for a year and now moving in the direction of forcing on users in order to get some direction of where users would like to go. And there seems to be a lot of changes in the design. Not truly significant, but more than just bug fixes. I don't see myself going to W10 for Windows use. I've gone from disliking W10 to saying "This may not be as bad as people say." to going back to not thinking much of it. I've been struggling to come up with a word that describes my feelings toward the interface, and after looking at a couple of Linux distros last night, the word hit me this morning. Childish. That's how all the new windows, settings, etc. strike me. The design and the number of steps it takes to do something(i.e. the number of times you have to click to get something done) just plain sucks, IMO. Although I suspect you disagree. But I will give MS kudos for the new Start Menu overall. I think the ability to take those tiles and put them in the Start Menu for a really customizable grouping of your most used programs is a great idea. There's a Start Menu replacement called Start Menu Reviver that looks very much the same. I may give that a try on my W7 system. And I also wonder what the numbers would be if MS made Internet Explorer as visible on the desktop as Edge is. Neither IE or Edge is/was present as a clickable option on my W10 devices desktop. MSFT could have done a better job providing information on how to make IE the default browser - that's unlikely to happen any time soon with resources now focused on its replacement - Edge. Microsoft could do a better job of providing information... period. I personally think 8 might not have been the massive flop if they had done this. Sadly, I don't see any new patterns or learning from the past with W10. But...a simple search finds this as the first hit Search term - How to make internet explorer default over edge http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/i...owser#ie=ie-11 In the systems I do for friends and others, I usually make Firefox the default. I use SeaMonkey in one profile as the default browser. ...but your comparison was about IE vs Edge on the Desktop not a 3rd party client. I was not trying to compare to any 3rd party client. My gut says MS will someday say that IE isn't popular because it isn't used. My intent was to convey the possibility that burying IE in Windows Accessories will result in skewed usage statistics since the two browsers are not on the same level playing field. IE is also available on the All Apps but unlike Edge(which is on the main All Apps menu), IE is found on the Windows Accessories menu group(iirc one the the places it existed on earlier o/s). It's also pinned to the taskbar by default in the systems I've done. What baffles me is, why make IE and accessory and not treat it like it has in the past? All the way back to and include XP, it's always been very easy to find in the Start Menu. IE, recently, andl in the future, continue to be the browser that MSFT has and will reduce development and resources - no longer demanding front-and-center visibility. Sometimes, I wonder if they over think issues, and end up pi$$ing off users, which is never a good thing. Imo, for some tasks, each(IE and Edge) is better than the other. I find Edge to be very irritating to use. I've never liked IE from the beginning, and have always used an alternative browser. MSFT learned quite a few years ago that browser choices were a given. As noted above, resources are dedicated to Edge not IE, and they are most likely and knowingly willing to handle any and all criticism for IE and Edge. And maybe they are putting the resources in the wrong place. If Edge and IE were both given the same exposure, they might discover users prefer IE over Edge. I know at work, when I'm working on a client's computer and I need something from the web, I use IE and Google, not Edge and Bing. If they work, I'll be installing Linux. At the school district for the area where I volunteer for a social agency, 7th grade and above use Ubuntu for their computer labs. In my school district starting in 3rd grade iPads are in use by students in the classroom and also by instructors for a deployment of a variety of curriculum. For students with English as a second language, currently Japanese and Hispanic, after school programs(3days/week and Sat. A.m.) iPads are also in use as tools for learning the English language, it's history and geography. Ah, affluence. It's a good thing to have. That does not apply to the district mentioned, which is why I suspect Ubuntu is used. I also wouldn't be surprised to find out many of the computer systems have been donated rather than purchased new. Affluence is part of it, but also being a magnet school has a factor. Another factor, and just as important Apple used the school system as a pilot providing equipment at marginal cost...and relatively close to home to MSFT ex-CEO's(Ballmer) K-12 backyard. Calculated ? Absolutely! "Calculated"... Good word for what I've been trying to say about the placement of Edge and IE in W10. MS could have done the same thing that Apple did. It just seems like MS can't get "out of the box" for themselves, and think like users. It's more like they want to sell what *they* want to sell, not what *users* want to buy. OT... This might be a funny story if it wasn't true... A friend of mine went to a job interview for her municipality a couple days ago. The panel consisted of 3 people. As you would expect, knowledge of Office was listed as a needed skill. As part of the materials she took as examples of what she could do was a 2016 calendar she made for her current job. She made a point of saying she used her own software to do the calendar because Publisher was too difficult to use. One of the panel members said "I hate that program!", meaning Publisher. Another agreed overall. LOL I used Publisher back in the days when MS was trying to sell it as a stand alone product along side Office Professional 4.3. Some of the issues with it then still exist in the 2007 version. With MS adding a page layout component to Word (Apple did this with Pages long ago) I personally wonder if MS isn't going to drop Publisher in the future. FWIW, Publisher isn't anything to be proud of. Quite a few programs do more, and more easily, than Publisher. One, at least, is free. G -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.5 Firefox 44.0 Thunderbird 38.0.1 "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!" |
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Ken Springer wrote:
On 3/5/16 2:07 AM, ...winston‫ wrote: MSFT learned quite a few years ago that browser choices were a given. As noted above, resources are dedicated to Edge not IE, and they are most likely and knowingly willing to handle any and all criticism for IE and Edge. And maybe they are putting the resources in the wrong place. If Edge and IE were both given the same exposure, they might discover users prefer IE over Edge. I know at work, when I'm working on a client's computer and I need something from the web, I use IE and Google, not Edge and Bing. I doubt MSFT believes that resources are misplaced. MS could have done the same thing that Apple did. It just seems like MS can't get "out of the box" for themselves, and think like users. It's more like they want to sell what *they* want to sell, not what *users* want to buy. MSFT up until recently sells software, unlike Apple that provides both hard/soft-ware thus that OEM middle man supporting their product and support structure cuts a lot deeper into the economics. OT... This might be a funny story if it wasn't true... A friend of mine went to a job interview for her municipality a couple days ago. The panel consisted of 3 people. As you would expect, knowledge of Office was listed as a needed skill. As part of the materials she took as examples of what she could do was a 2016 calendar she made for her current job. She made a point of saying she used her own software to do the calendar because Publisher was too difficult to use. One of the panel members said "I hate that program!", meaning Publisher. Another agreed overall. LOL I used Publisher back in the days when MS was trying to sell it as a stand alone product along side Office Professional 4.3. Some of the issues with it then still exist in the 2007 version. With MS adding a page layout component to Word (Apple did this with Pages long ago) I personally wonder if MS isn't going to drop Publisher in the future. FWIW, Publisher isn't anything to be proud of. Quite a few programs do more, and more easily, than Publisher. One, at least, is free. G Publisher, imo, isn't a bad program, but just too complex and not-intuitive thus a much deeper learning curve...once understood it's benefits are integration with the other Office suite products. -- ....winston msft mvp windows experience |
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In message , =?UTF-8?Q?...
winston=e2=80=ab?= writes: Ken Springer wrote: [] I used Publisher back in the days when MS was trying to sell it as a stand alone product along side Office Professional 4.3. Some of the [] FWIW, Publisher isn't anything to be proud of. Quite a few programs do more, and more easily, than Publisher. One, at least, is free. G Publisher, imo, isn't a bad program, but just too complex and not-intuitive thus a much deeper learning curve...once understood it's benefits are integration with the other Office suite products. I had no idea it still existed as a current product; what exactly does it _do_? (But then I've not grasped the point of OneNote either, or at least understood why it's worth the bother.) -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf Can a blue man sing the whites? |
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J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , =?UTF-8?Q?... winston=e2=80=ab?= writes: Publisher, imo, isn't a bad program, but just too complex and not-intuitive thus a much deeper learning curve...once understood it's benefits are integration with the other Office suite products. I had no idea it still existed as a current product; what exactly does it _do_? (But then I've not grasped the point of OneNote either, or at least understood why it's worth the bother.) OneNote in the simplest definition is Notepad on steroids and then some. - think of it as a digital based notebook(personal information management, aka PIM) capable of handwritten or typed text, drawing, graphics and audio that can automatically save and syncrhonize notes/data. -- ....winston msft mvp windows experience |
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In message , =?UTF-8?Q?...
winston=e2=80=ab?= writes: J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: In message , =?UTF-8?Q?... winston=e2=80=ab?= writes: Publisher, imo, isn't a bad program, but just too complex and not-intuitive thus a much deeper learning curve...once understood it's benefits are integration with the other Office suite products. I had no idea it still existed as a current product; what exactly does it _do_? (But then I've not grasped the point of OneNote either, or at least understood why it's worth the bother.) OneNote in the simplest definition is Notepad on steroids and then some. - think of it as a digital based notebook(personal information management, aka PIM) capable of handwritten or typed text, drawing, graphics and audio that can automatically save and syncrhonize notes/data. OK, so it's useful to tablet users, and those of a mindset very different from mine regarding how to manage things. I still don't know what Publisher does though (-: -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf You can believe it if it helps you to sleep. - Quoted by Tom Lehrer (on religion, in passing), April 2013. |
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"J. P. Gilliver (John)" escreveu na mensagem ... "Can a blue man sing the whites?" Safe kids sometimes want adventure. -- Blue Citizen |
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Blue Citizen wrote on 3/6/2016 6:37 PM:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" escreveu na mensagem ... "Can a blue man sing the whites?" Safe kids sometimes want adventure. -- Blue Citizen Oh, God! I'm stealing that for my sig file! Thanks! -- Ed Mullen http://edmullen.net/ "Disgruntled?" If I'm not, then I guess I'm "gruntled." What the heck is "gruntled?" |
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In message , Ed Mullen
writes: Blue Citizen wrote on 3/6/2016 6:37 PM: "J. P. Gilliver (John)" escreveu na mensagem ... "Can a blue man sing the whites?" Safe kids sometimes want adventure. -- Blue Citizen Oh, God! I'm stealing that for my sig file! Thanks! The "blue man" bit was from me (though I've got it from somewhere else), the "Safe kids" was from Blue Citizen. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf "OLTION'S COMPLETE, UNABRIDGED HISTORY OF THE UNIVERSE Bang! ...crumple." - Jery Oltion |
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