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Keyboard problem



 
 
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  #16  
Old December 8th 17, 06:40 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
KenK
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 444
Default Keyboard problem

Paul wrote in news
KenK wrote:

Nope. Didn't work. System said no keyboard found when booting and
mouse pointer was frozen when system started. sigh I was hoping...


OK, next question. Do any of these
subsystems (PS/2 or USB) light up any LEDs ?

Some of the cheaper motherboards, skimp on fuses
for the +5V supply.

A "good design" assigns one Polyfuse per two USB headers.

A "good design" assigns a Polyfuse for the parallel (printer) port
(+5V).

And the PS/2 ports may have their own fuse too.

However, some try to run the whole works, off one fuse.

A traditional Polyfuse is green in color, and has
a "notch" in the end of it. These examples might
be rated for 1.4 amps (for two USB ports of 500mA each).
The green-ness, and the notch, help them stand out
when inspecting a PCB.

http://i.imgur.com/GuxsJ.png

*******

A Polyfuse is a polycrystalline device. The active
material "melts" if too much current is drawn.
When the power is off again, the material cools
off and goes back to crystal form (where the crystal
conducts electricity).

This means that normally the fuse resets itself.
There is nothing to replace (normally).

You can check your ports with a multimeter, but
this is difficult to do without some deal of care
so you don't short something out while working on it.
An easier check, is to check fpr +5V on either side
of the fuse, while the keyboard is connected, proving
the fuse is still closed.

A USB device with a LED on it, like a USB reading lamp,
a device that has no "USB state" but just draws power
from VCC, is a good means to verify power is present.

I suspect you may have a power problem, and the above
is a hint about what to look for.

A failed Polyfuse doesn't normally burn to a crisp,
so you won't likely get a hint that way. You could
ohm it out, with your multimeter, as it should have
a decently low resistance across the terminals when
cold. I'd do it with all power off on the PC, just
to make the results more predictable.

(There is a capacitor on the output side of the fuse,
which provides holdup of the +5V rail voltage against
inrush current. USB peripherals are only allowed to
use capacitors around 1/10th the size, so that when
a USB device is plugged in, the rail voltage doesn't
sag too much. So there is electrical circuitry on
either side of the fuse, which could influence a reading.)

Some of this is addressed in this document, written
by Intel to help motherboard designers during
the USB2 era.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060626...usb.org:80/dev
elopers/whitepapers/power_delivery_motherboards.pdf

Anyway, most of that is for fun, and if you can get
any sort of LED to confirm it's got power, that's
good enough at this point.

For example, this USB desk lamp, draws 5V @ 400mA,
just under the 500mA limit for a USB2 port. So this
would be a good test for power availability. A typical
ATX power supply, can only run about five of these,
as the +5VSB rail used on modern designs, has a
2A limit. I don't know if you'd find these at a
Walmart or not.

http://www.mobisun.com/en/mobisun-le...light-usb.html

Paul



Since the problem USB keyboard I'm using works I guess that indicates
separate fuses. Since I intend to buy USB keyboards in the future I
rashly asume that will not be a problem.


--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.






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  #17  
Old December 8th 17, 07:12 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Keyboard problem

KenK wrote:

Since the problem USB keyboard I'm using works I guess that indicates
separate fuses. Since I intend to buy USB keyboards in the future I
rashly asume that will not be a problem.


A USB keyboard is not normally a heavy electrical load.

It should fit into a 100mA power envelop (USB2 devices
have classes, and the low power ones, like mice, are
generally under 100mA). The actual keyboard scanning
function, doesn't really need that much power.

There are a few USB2 devices that were high power,
like a certain ADSL USB2 modem that drew 530mA...
from a 500mA circuit :-)

The fuse is not supposed to be "set" anywhere
near the 500mA value, and the fuse is meant to
prevent damage to the pins. So a value of fuse
in the 1 amp range or a bit higher is OK.

Some laptops use "power bug" chips, an
electronic fuse that uses a MOSFET to cut off
power, and some of those work "precisely" at
500mA, to the annoyance of the user sitting
at the laptop. And that's one reason Intel provided
that application note about how to design USB
interfaces, so people would not lose sight of
the intended purpose of cutting off the power.
Laptops don't use Polyfuses, due to the lack
of ventilation inside the machine, and the electronic
fuse (even if it costs a bit more), is a much
more precise device with fewer drawbacks. All
except for "enforcing" the wrong value :-)

Paul
  #18  
Old December 9th 17, 02:56 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
KenK
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 444
Default Keyboard problem

Paul wrote in news
KenK wrote:

Nope. Didn't work. System said no keyboard found when booting and
mouse pointer was frozen when system started. sigh I was hoping...


OK, next question. Do any of these
subsystems (PS/2 or USB) light up any LEDs ?


The external HD has an LED ndicator that works

Some of the cheaper motherboards, skimp on fuses
for the +5V supply.

A "good design" assigns one Polyfuse per two USB headers.

A "good design" assigns a Polyfuse for the parallel (printer) port
(+5V).

And the PS/2 ports may have their own fuse too.

However, some try to run the whole works, off one fuse.

A traditional Polyfuse is green in color, and has
a "notch" in the end of it. These examples might
be rated for 1.4 amps (for two USB ports of 500mA each).
The green-ness, and the notch, help them stand out
when inspecting a PCB.

http://i.imgur.com/GuxsJ.png

*******

A Polyfuse is a polycrystalline device. The active
material "melts" if too much current is drawn.
When the power is off again, the material cools
off and goes back to crystal form (where the crystal
conducts electricity).

This means that normally the fuse resets itself.
There is nothing to replace (normally).

You can check your ports with a multimeter, but
this is difficult to do without some deal of care
so you don't short something out while working on it.
An easier check, is to check fpr +5V on either side
of the fuse, while the keyboard is connected, proving
the fuse is still closed.

A USB device with a LED on it, like a USB reading lamp,
a device that has no "USB state" but just draws power
from VCC, is a good means to verify power is present.

I suspect you may have a power problem, and the above
is a hint about what to look for.

A failed Polyfuse doesn't normally burn to a crisp,
so you won't likely get a hint that way. You could
ohm it out, with your multimeter, as it should have
a decently low resistance across the terminals when
cold. I'd do it with all power off on the PC, just
to make the results more predictable.

(There is a capacitor on the output side of the fuse,
which provides holdup of the +5V rail voltage against
inrush current. USB peripherals are only allowed to
use capacitors around 1/10th the size, so that when
a USB device is plugged in, the rail voltage doesn't
sag too much. So there is electrical circuitry on
either side of the fuse, which could influence a reading.)

Some of this is addressed in this document, written
by Intel to help motherboard designers during
the USB2 era.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060626...usb.org:80/dev
elopers/whitepapers/power_delivery_motherboards.pdf

Anyway, most of that is for fun, and if you can get
any sort of LED to confirm it's got power, that's
good enough at this point.

For example, this USB desk lamp, draws 5V @ 400mA,
just under the 500mA limit for a USB2 port. So this
would be a good test for power availability. A typical
ATX power supply, can only run about five of these,
as the +5VSB rail used on modern designs, has a
2A limit. I don't know if you'd find these at a
Walmart or not.

http://www.mobisun.com/en/mobisun-le...light-usb.html

Paul




--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.






  #19  
Old December 9th 17, 05:38 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Keyboard problem

KenK wrote:
Paul wrote in news
KenK wrote:

Nope. Didn't work. System said no keyboard found when booting and
mouse pointer was frozen when system started. sigh I was hoping...

OK, next question. Do any of these
subsystems (PS/2 or USB) light up any LEDs ?


The external HD has an LED ndicator that works


You can use BIOS settings, to completely
disable the USB subsystem (from functioning,
not from lighting the LED necessarily).

In the USB2 era, there was a separate page in the BIOS
screen, with all sorts of stuff for USB. Including
the ability to turn stuff off.

In cases where you've hopelessly damaged the BIOS
settings, you can use the Clear_CMOS jumper to start
over again. You do that with the power cable pulled
from the computer (as the Clear_CMOS jumper can burn
a little ORing diode if you leave the computer powered).

But beware. On some computers that you find in the junk pile,
the internal graphics are damaged. If you reset the
BIOS on these older computers, they default to selecting
the internal graphics, and they won't use the video card
right away. And you have to be able to see the screen,
to set the BIOS to using the add-in video card. Machines
with internal graphics which are non-operational, then you
cannot afford to reset the BIOS. If you use the
Clear_CMOS jumper on such machines, you end up
locked out. You have to know a bit about the equipment
you're working on, to have some idea whether this
is a possible outcome. The two machines I use in the
room today here, don't have this as a possible outcome,
and I should always be able to recover them.

That makes it possible to pretty well completely lock yourself
out of the computer. You have to be born unlucky for
that to happen, but it has happened to posters visiting
USENET.

If you can get some sort of keyboard working, even if
it's PS/2, you can take a look in the BIOS settings.
And see if something was turned off by accident.

On motherboards with USB1.1 ports from the Southbridge,
and USB2 ports from a NEC add-on USB chip, the NEC ports
don't work right away at BIOS level. And you use the
USB1.1 ports for the keyboard, if you expect to use
the USB keyboard in the BIOS. However, the keyboard
will work on the NEC chip, once the OS boots. Maybe you
might see this on a year 2005 computer or so.

The Southbridge USB ports, generally always have full
support at BIOS level. Add-on chips outside of that,
don't have code modules to help them at BIOS level.
However, I think my newest machine, it does boot
from a NEC USB3 chip which sits outside the Southbridge.
But the older computers, like year 2005, the support
was much poorer back then.

Once the OS comes up, they should all work.

WinXP has USB2 drivers at least. For USB3 add-on cards,
you'd need to use the driver disc, to have the OS
recognize the ports. Windows 7 suffers the same fate.
Windows 8 and Windows 10 have USB3 drivers in-box.

Paul
  #20  
Old December 10th 17, 05:21 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
No_Name
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 177
Default Keyboard problem

On 8 Dec 2017 17:34:08 GMT, KenK wrote:


We didn't have any problem with the keyboard, though. But there may

well
be some interaction between the two.


I'm going to forgot about that problem - for now anyway. The PS/2
keyboards are very old and I just wanted something to use until I could
buy a new one. Hopefuly one that works!

--


It sounds like you have a sledge hammer keyboard. Lay it on your lawn
and use a sledge hammer on it. I've done that several times with
keyboards that dont work, or the keys stick.

You can buy new keyboards on ebay for as little as $7. They are just
basic keyboards, which is what I like. I dont need lots of extra keys
and I'd never use them anyhow. Personally, I use PS/2 kbds because I run
Win98 and sometimes Dos. USB keyboards dont work on Dos and may not work
on 98 either. I can use the USB ones on my XP machine, but I see no
reason to waste a USB port on a keyboard. I never have enough USB ports
as it is, when I start transferring stuff to multiple flash drives. My
computers have PS/2 connectors for kebd and mouse, so why not use them.

  #21  
Old December 11th 17, 07:23 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
KenK
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 444
Default Keyboard problem

KenK wrote in
:

Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver.
Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work?

The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick
worse.

TIA



I finally got a new keyboard, an Onn from Walmart. Never heard of that
company but it works!


--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.






  #22  
Old December 11th 17, 10:32 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
No_Name
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 177
Default Keyboard problem

On 11 Dec 2017 18:23:08 GMT, KenK wrote:


I finally got a new keyboard, an Onn from Walmart. Never heard of that
company but it works!


As long as it works, you got it made.....
Most keyboards work, it's just how long they work before the keys start
to stick or fail.... I had one keyboard that worked almost forever, but
the letters wore off the keys. I kept writing them back with a magic
marker, but that only lasted a week or so. I finally just replaced it.

  #23  
Old December 13th 17, 02:49 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
KenK
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 444
Default Keyboard problem

KenK wrote in news:XnsA84873D423CF0invalidcom@
130.133.4.11:

KenK wrote in
:

Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver.
Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work?

The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick
worse.

TIA



I finally got a new keyboard, an Onn from Walmart. Never heard of that
company but it works!



Having system problem with new keyboard. The Windows XP New Hardware
Install Wizard keeps returning. Keyboard does seem to work ok though.
Wizard finally says it may not work. sigh

--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.






  #24  
Old December 13th 17, 04:26 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Keyboard problem

KenK wrote:
KenK wrote in news:XnsA84873D423CF0invalidcom@
130.133.4.11:

KenK wrote in
:

Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver.
Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work?

The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick
worse.

TIA


I finally got a new keyboard, an Onn from Walmart. Never heard of that
company but it works!



Having system problem with new keyboard. The Windows XP New Hardware
Install Wizard keeps returning. Keyboard does seem to work ok though.
Wizard finally says it may not work. sigh


WinXP has the nice feature, that every attempt is logged in SetupAPI.log.
Later OSes don't seem to log nearly as well.

Each entry has a date stamp, and they really should have put a blank
line before [...] to make that stand out.

C:\Windows\SetupAPI.log

[2017/12/06 09:13:35 2256.449]
#-198 Command line processed: "C:\WINDOWS\system32\mmc.exe" "C:\WINDOWS\system32\devmgmt.msc"
#-166 Device install function: DIF_PROPERTYCHANGE.
#I292 Changing device properties of "USBSTOR\DISK&VEN_SANDISK&PROD_EXTREME&REV_0001\AA 011026152124362907&0".
#I309 DICS_STOP: Device has been stopped.
#-166 Device install function: DIF_PROPERTYCHANGE.
#I292 Changing device properties of "USBSTOR\DISK&VEN_SANDISK&PROD_EXTREME&REV_0001\AA 011026152124362907&0".
#I306 DICS_START: Device has been started.

Each stanza tells a story. Devices with multiple "layers",
you'll see date stamps within seconds of one another, as
the layers install.

The only thing that really interferes with HID drivers,
is a filter driver for a touchpad. Some of them, have
insufficiently precise Plug And Play info, they
"match to everything" and can prevent input from
happening.

Another kind of filter driver might be a keylogger.

And a question would be, how do we eject stuff like this ?
It's one thing to remove the ENUM tree and let the OS
rediscover the hardware. But that doesn't solve the
problem of drivers "hiding in wait" to jump on the
hardware when it is discovered. And I don't know how
to fix that.

Paul
  #25  
Old December 14th 17, 10:53 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
No_Name
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 177
Default Keyboard problem

On 13 Dec 2017 13:49:39 GMT, KenK wrote:

KenK wrote in news:XnsA84873D423CF0invalidcom@
130.133.4.11:

KenK wrote in
:

Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver.
Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work?

The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick
worse.

TIA



I finally got a new keyboard, an Onn from Walmart. Never heard of that
company but it works!



Having system problem with new keyboard. The Windows XP New Hardware
Install Wizard keeps returning. Keyboard does seem to work ok though.
Wizard finally says it may not work. sigh


Microsoft must have spent years and paid out millions of dollars to hire
people, who did nothing but find ways to annoy, irritate, and **** off
it's customers. If they had spent half that time, money and effort into
making Windows work properly without all the annoyances, they could have
not only created much better operating systems, but saved a lot of
wasted time and money. Not ot mention having a more favorable
reputation.

It never ceases to amaze me how windows will insist on something that is
not needed, and will pester the user for eternity over some trivial
nonsense that is not even needed. The keyboard is working, but for all
eternity, you will be annoyed by this bull****, unless you do something
about it, and waste many hours trying to fix something that is not even
broken.

It's no different with those ****ing "System Volume Information" files
that are created on every flash drive, portable Hard Drive and damn near
everything else I plug into my XP computers. I have all of System
Restore completely disabled, yet XP insists on putting those worthless
SVI files on everything it touches. It's like "What part of the word
*NO* dont you understand?". I would not mind so much of they were just
on my installed Hard drives, but putting that **** on every portable
drive is annoying as hell. And Windows wont let me delete them. I can
delete them on my Win98 computer, or boot to linux and remove them, or
probably even remove them from Dos, but why bother. As soon as I plug
into XP, they will return, and keep doing so for eternity.....

I always thought that MS has persons working there who just work there,
because they want to torture people with their annoyances....
I can only guess these people hate humanity and it makes them get an
erection to create these things that torture everyone who touches a
computer. It must be some psychotic urge to make them feel like they
have power, because in real life they are social losers.



 




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