O.T. Computer Cleaning Maintenance:

Mark Twain wrote:
p.s. Now the indicator light is out
but all other lights are green.

p.s.s. I doubt this matters but I've
also tried inserting a CD to force the
open but nothing.

Robert


I hope you've checked the cabling to the
monitor. Did something fall off ?

Paul

Mark Twain wrote:
Regarding the 8200; it did crash last night with
a irrecoverable error but it came back and I
restarted it to make sure everything was OK and ran
scans.

Could it be that my video card has gone bad?

Robert



You can do a quick visual inspection inside if you
want, but you're probably going to need a set of
trained eyes to look at it.

Someone who has spare video cards, power supplies
and so on.

It's funny that the debug LEDs are all green,
which suggests the BIOS is happy with the hardware,
but your copy of Windows is kablooie. Maybe the file
system is corrupted, the registry has a problem etc.

I would be booting with my Linux LiveCD right now, if
I could get the optical drive tray open. Just to see
if Linux will boot OK or not.

Paul

The monitor cable plugs in then its screwed in
on both sides but yes I checked and everything
seems connected. I even thought I may have
inadvertently turned the monitor off so pressed
the power button just to make sure

Robert

I tried to boot with a Linux CD a friend
made for me a few years ago and nothing
happened. Same symptoms.

Robert

Should I then load the original XP disks
and start over?

Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
Should I then load the original XP disks
and start over?

Robert

I wouldn't do that just yet.

Remember that you also have a Macrium CD.
It is a bootable CD. You don't even have
to do anything in there, for a quick test.

One thing the Macrium may do, when it
starts running, is it will scan the disk(s)
in the machine, to see what file systems are
present. Because, you can actually run
backups from that CD. I've done backup
operations (imaging) from the Macrium CD.

It sounds to me like your monitor isn't responding.
But you're in a better position to judge whether
you think a monitor that refused to display the
screen, could be responsible. On my monitors here, the
LED on the monitor turns yellow when there is no signal,
and the presence of the yellow LED tells me the monitor
has a working power source. If all LEDs on the monitor
stayed dark, I would assume a power problem with the
monitor. Either the cable is loose, or isn't
firmly seated in the power bar. I've had at least
one occasion on my other computer, where the
monitor power cable (which plugs in from the bottom),
managed to work itself loose from the socket.

While a monitor backlight could fail to come on,
usually there are symptoms of monitor problems
in advance, to tell you it's going to happen
in a couple weeks.

You know all the quirks, and I can only guess at
what is going on from this end.

If you backed up the 8200, you could also do a
restore from backup. But if the Macrium boot CD
won't "light up the screen" either, then it's going
to be pretty hard to work on the hard drive. I want
to see some light come from the monitor first, before
contemplating working on the hard drive.

Paul

You answered everything I was going to say
i.e. CD disk we just made and the backup on
the external hd.

The Indicator on the Monitor shows yellow,
so there's a power source.

I think what I will try is disconnecting
everything and then re-connect everything
and see if that does anything. I'll let
you know.

Robert

I disconnected everything from the
rear of the computer although I didn't
disconnect the cables from the monitor.

After I had disconnected everything the
floating Dell Self Feature Test appeared
on the monitor with red,green,blue and
white bars.

I reconnected everything but it's still
the same.


Robert

Hello Paul,

I took some pics to show you the 8200
since I couldn't take screenshots. It
may be difficult to see the lights in some

http://i57.tinypic.com/29lzrqf.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/1j2owj.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/kcm9tk.jpg

Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
Hello Paul,

I took some pics to show you the 8200
since I couldn't take screenshots. It
may be difficult to see the lights in some

http://i57.tinypic.com/29lzrqf.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/1j2owj.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/kcm9tk.jpg

Robert



All I can say at this point, is the green indicators
for the diagnostic status, suggest the BIOS loaded
the LEDs, and as far as the BIOS is concerned the
machine is OK. But such a status doesn't verify the
video card output side. The BIOS cannot tell whether
the video card VGA output is good, the cable is good,
the monitor functions correctly and so on.

You can swap monitors, or test the 8200 monitor on
an output of the 8500. So that's one way to determine
the monitor and video cable are working.

If you suspected the video card, you'd need a stock of
replacement or test cards to swap in. For example, I have
one PCI video card for test purposes, some left over
AGP ones, but for PCI Express, I don't have an excess of
those. So I'd have to swap between computers if I needed
a PCI Express test card. The PCI card is the one I rely
on as a universal donor, since my systems here all have
a PCI slot. There are some modern computers that are
pure PCI Express, so my parts bin isn't as ready to
provide test materials for something like that.

In terms of failure modes, the most likely way for a
video card to fail, is via cooling failure. If the
cooling fan on a video card fails, the GPU overheats
and that finishes it off. Sometimes, you see colored blocks
or other geometric objects on the screen, as the RAM
connected to the GPU, coughs up garbage. Those are
hints there is a problem.

And that's why, one of the observation things, is to
check that the video card fan still spins when the
power is on. As that tells you whether a cooling
failure could be the source of the problem.

If there was a power problem (bad power supply), you
would think the BIOS would get stuck somewhere, and
the diagnostic LED pattern would be different. Now
because the BIOS actually checks the power, but because
the BIOS might detect some POST test not working right
if the power quality was marginal.

In terms of general diagnostic approaches:

1) Remove excess hardware, in the hope that the removed
item prevents system function. Usually, there isn't a
lot of stuff which isn't essential to computer operation.

2) Beep tests. Remove items like video card or RAM, and
see if the machine beeps an error code. Which helps
prove the CPU and BIOS code are working.

But based on your symptoms right now, I'd be swapping
a video card. Or doing something so I can see the BIOS
screen. Or doing a beep test, just to verify the green
diagnostic LEDs are not a fluke of nature. The video card
is likely to be AGP, just based on the vintage. The chipset
on the 8200 (RAMBus), might pre-date Northbridge built-in
GPU designs.

Paul

So what are my options at this point?

Should I try swapping screens with the 8500
(just unplug on and plug in the other).

How do I do a beep test?

Is there anything else you recommend?

If the monitor isn't working than the rescue
disk and backup and original disks are useless.

Robert

I would like to have as little as possible
on my computer but I've gotten virus and malware
previously and these programs are in place
to prevent it from happening again.

If Paul or Ken thought it was overkill they
would have said so but in fact many of these
programs came from suggestions from them.

As I understand it, Linux based systems are pretty
much virus/malware free like Mac computers so its
not a compatible comparison.

Robert

I tried loading the Seagate Sea Tools disc
but nothing happened. I still have all my
original disks if that helps and Nero, and
the Linex CD.

This is what the Linex CD he gave me is used for:
He gave me instructions on how to answer each
prompt to wipe the old partitioning info off the
HD, regardless of what operating system was
originally on it.

He gave me this to clean another Seagate 160 GB HD
I have and I believe I still have the original 40GB
HD by Westgate? However, I think the other 160 is bad.

I switched the monitors with the 8500 and the 8200
monitor came up fine with no problems.

So it's the 8200 itself. The video card?

As I said the top fan sometimes needs a nudge
but more and more its been starting on its
own.

If you can point me to a video card I can
purchase it and install it. Otherwise, what
else might it be? Motherboard corrupted?
Software corrupted?

Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
I would like to have as little as possible
on my computer but I've gotten virus and malware
previously and these programs are in place
to prevent it from happening again.

If Paul or Ken thought it was overkill they
would have said so but in fact many of these
programs came from suggestions from them.

As I understand it, Linux based systems are pretty
much virus/malware free like Mac computers so its
not a compatible comparison.

Robert

I think your setup is just fine.

That's my opinion.

*******

Safe hex as a security approach requires considerable
effort, and comes with no guarantees.

I don't think it's a fair tradeoff in this case.

There's no point to being tipped over, again and again,
by malware and adware. Let the tools do the work. The 8500
has an excess of horsepower, so that part of it is not
an issue. The 8200 on the other hand, having too much
junk running on there, probably saps a bit of
its energy, as it's a single core CPU. But I'd still
keep it locked down, as it's then less work to fix later.

Paul

Mark Twain wrote:
I tried loading the Seagate Sea Tools disc
but nothing happened. I still have all my
original disks if that helps and Nero, and
the Linex CD.

This is what the Linex CD he gave me is used for:
He gave me instructions on how to answer each
prompt to wipe the old partitioning info off the
HD, regardless of what operating system was
originally on it.

He gave me this to clean another Seagate 160 GB HD
I have and I believe I still have the original 40GB
HD by Westgate? However, I think the other 160 is bad.

I switched the monitors with the 8500 and the 8200
monitor came up fine with no problems.

So it's the 8200 itself. The video card?

As I said the top fan sometimes needs a nudge
but more and more its been starting on its
own.

If you can point me to a video card I can
purchase it and install it. Otherwise, what
else might it be? Motherboard corrupted?
Software corrupted?

Thanks,
Robert

I'm trying to be mindful of your budget here.

I don't recommend buying a lot of hardware,
unless it will not cause a hardship, and you
are likely to use the hardware later. Take
my spare video cards for example. They've seen
many uses over the years, and since they were
bought when the AGP format was younger, there
were plenty of years left for them to see usage.

At this point in time, AGP cards are getting harder
to find. And you can't use such a card in your 8500,
which is likely to have a PCI Express x16 video card.

I would recommend visiting a local computer recycler
if you know of one. Ask for a card that is known
good - tell them what you intend to do with it.
Most of the cards they'll have, will be $50 to $100
stuff, rather than having a pile of $500 gamer cards.
And that's great, as then the card won't use more than
about 35W of electricity. The idea is, to get a
card for $10 to $20. An ideal card would be something
like an FX5200 (with cooling fan), as those
span all the way from Win98 to Win7 on drivers.
There is no driver for one of those for Win8 or Win10.

And the card does not have to be AGP. A video
card with PCI interface, would also work. But,
if you get the AGP, that could serve as a permanent
replacement. I only use PCI based video cards for
short term usage, because they are slow as molasses
in winter. They serve as a display in an emergency
(like when flashing the VESA BIOS chip on your
"good" video card). But other than that, my PCI
card stays in the box. Most of the time the PCI
card is OK, but if you have a QuickTime movie
open, and you attempt to drag the window across
the desktop, it "stutters like a *******". And
I don't particularly like that :-)

Card types:

PCI 133MB/sec max

AGP 266MB/sec "1X card"
2128MB/sec "8X card"

PCI Express 4000MB/sec PCI Express x16 Rev.2
8000MB/sec PCI Express x16 Rev.3
250MB/sec PCI Express x1 Rev.2

You can see the PCI is pretty slow. But it does
make a great card "just to see the screen in the
BIOS" or for "a quick debug run". But not as
a permanent video card.

*******

This article will help you with AGP compatibility.

http://www.playtool.com/pages/agpcompat/agp.html

Your 8200 could use an 850 or an 850E Northbridge.
From the Playtool table...

Intel 850 AGP 1.5V Motherboard

Using a row out of the upper table, it works with
virtually everything I would want to own as an AGP
video card. So that's a good sign.

AGP 1.5V Motherboard Won't fit in slot Works at 1.5V Works at 1.5V Works at 1.5V Works at 1.5V

Only an AGP 3.3V card won't fit. The socket will have the notch
on the 1.5V end. See the picture. Your 8200 will either be
the second one down. Or it could be the bottom one. The
bottom one is AGP Pro, and the extra pins just carry more
power.

http://www.playtool.com/pages/agpcompat/agpslots.gif

The idea of the keying (voltage) plug, is it checks for compatible
cards.

If you use this picture as a reference, you *don't* want
the middle card. Both the left and right cards, have a
slot for 1.5V. And that means the left and right cards
fit. The right-hand card is "universal" type.

You also should not have a problem with slot power.
Slot power issues (3.3V) were present in the P3 era
or so. I do not expect a problem with that aspect.

So the job is reasonably simple.

If you absolutely must waste good money on this,

EVGA 512-A8-N403-RX GeForce 6200 512MB 64-Bit DDR2 AGP 4X/8X Factory Refurbished $26
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130635

A 6200 is a reasonable cross-generation card. That one
has universal keying.

The refurbished sometimes means, these are new cards
used for warranty replacement work. I got a similar
card in my current computer, and saved a bit of money
on it. What I don't like on that card, is it is
convection cooled. If your computer case seems to
have decent airflow, that might work for you.
I've had mixed results with cards cooled that
way. One ran just fine. The other became unstable
only when playing a computer game, but was
otherwise OK. When I buy cards like that now,
I mount a case cooling fan next to the card, inside
the computer case. And no, you *cannot* buy an
easy-peasy mounting bracket for this - you must
descend to your basement shop and *make* one.

For the rest on Newegg, they want too much money.
The $25 card will work fine, for your debugging work.
If it runs too hot for some reason, then you're going
to need to become a mechanical engineer and set up a
cooler next to it :-)

This is the custom cooler for my newest machine.
The yellow thing in the center of the picture, is
a leg that holds up the CPU cooler (which is a heavy
piece of metal). The fan is relatively hard to make
out in that picture. It's an 80mm fan. The three wire
cable runs off to a motherboard fan header. The nylon
ties go through the holes on the fan plastic body, and
hold the fan to the metal support. The cheap
video card is just above the fan assembly.

http://i62.tinypic.com/slpamc.jpg

Have fun,
Paul