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  #31  
Old July 9th 15, 01:18 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]
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On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 11:49:34 -0700 (PDT), Mark Twain
wrote:


As I understand it, Linux based systems are pretty
much virus/malware free like Mac computers so its
not a compatible comparison.



Not true. Neither Linux not Macintosh computers are malware free.
Because both have fewer users, and malware writers target the most
popular systems, there may be a somewhat lower risk of infection. But
in both cases, the risk is far from zero
Ads
  #32  
Old July 9th 15, 02:00 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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I read all the good information given and went
with the 6200 video card and have ordered it.

Since I never had a direct video card fan before
this should work ok.

I did see the fan on your video card by the
way. Is this why some cool their system by
water and oil? To keep them cool versus fans?

Thanks,
Robert
  #33  
Old July 9th 15, 02:01 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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I stand corrected Ken

Thanks,
Robert
  #34  
Old July 9th 15, 02:05 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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I just saw that the 6200 is for 64bit
so does that mean I just bought the wrong
card for the 8200?


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130635

Robert
  #35  
Old July 9th 15, 02:53 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul
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Mark Twain wrote:
I just saw that the 6200 is for 64bit
so does that mean I just bought the wrong
card for the 8200?


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130635

Robert


The 64-bit in this case, refers to the
connection between video card RAM and GPU.
There is a 16 bit connection from each RAM
chip (RAM data bus) to the GPU. That 6200 card
has four RAM chips on it.

+-----------------------------------+
| |
| RAM RAM RAM RAM |
| Chip#1 Chip#2 Chip#3 Chip#4 |
| | | | | |
| | | / / |
| | \ / / |
| +----------GPU--------+ |
| |
+-----------------------------------+

For fanbois this is a measure of how "powerful"
the card is. A high end card is "384", while weak
cards are "64". The number of data bits in the bus,
times the bus frequency, gives "raw bandwidth"
for the GPU to look up stuff. The faster the
connection to RAM, the faster the GPU can
do texture related stuff for gaming.

And fortunately, it has no effect on whether the
OS is 32 bit or 64 bit. Either kind of OS is
sufficient. All it takes is drivers to make
the card work well.

The card will work fine. Carry on :-)

Paul
  #36  
Old July 9th 15, 03:53 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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Understood,

I'll let you know when I
have it installed.

In the meantime is there
anything I can or should do?

Robert
  #37  
Old July 9th 15, 04:21 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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Once we get the 8200 up and running again
would you recommend upgrading the RAM?


If so, could you make a suggestion/links? I
remember putting in two RAM chips in a long
time ago and I believe I'm at 50% max at present
but would like to max it out as much as possible.

Maybe replace the other two with (4) 'better'
ones or if there's no difference then just (2) new
ones.

Thoughts/suggestions?

Thanks,
Robert
  #38  
Old July 9th 15, 04:27 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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I went through my pictures of the 8200
to locate the card and to see if there would
be any problems before installation.

After seeing your fan setup it looks like there's
a fan on the lower card which has the yellow
plug (stereo).

http://i58.tinypic.com/10x4r9k.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/30t6ziu.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/2aenihg.jpg

Robert

  #39  
Old July 9th 15, 05:09 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul
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Mark Twain wrote:
Once we get the 8200 up and running again
would you recommend upgrading the RAM?


If so, could you make a suggestion/links? I
remember putting in two RAM chips in a long
time ago and I believe I'm at 50% max at present
but would like to max it out as much as possible.

Maybe replace the other two with (4) 'better'
ones or if there's no difference then just (2) new
ones.

Thoughts/suggestions?

Thanks,
Robert


I don't know what the price runs for that stuff now.

As for useful RAM, 512MB is a big tight for WinXP.
You can run maybe three applications at once, with
a little luck. Depending on the vintage of
web browser used though, 512MB doesn't go too far
there.

I would think 1GB would be "enough" RAM under
normal circumstances. I used to play 3D games
with that much. Whereas 512MB was just a bit
too tight for that to work.

There are two types of RAMBUS RAM. And one
of them was weird, in that the memory chips
are in a serial chain. And when the chain of
chips gets to a certain magic length, you can't
have any more. That equates to 16 chips on one
DIMM and 8 chips on the other, for a total of
24 chips. Something like this.

Channel0 Channel1
| |
Double-sided Double-sided
16 chip DIMM 16 chip DIMM
| |
Single-sided Single-sided
8 chip DIMM 8 chip DIMM

There is also a deal about something
called a CRIMM. There must be "continuity"
in the chain of chips. If you have two
slots occupied out of four slots,
the remaining two slots get funny looking
PCB cards, and they just wire the serial bus
connections through the slot. You want to
save those cards, in case they are ever needed
again.

The other kind of RAMBUS ram, is a "32 bit module"
or something. Apparently, the chain of chips in that
case, is entirely contained on one module. So no
continuity is required. I don't think there is a
chain limit either.

The DIMMs get "hot spots". When you access the memory
in the 8200, a single chip draws up to 4 watts. If
you hammer the same memory location over and over
again, just the one chip is doing all the work, and
the other chips are relatively quiet. As a result
of this funny behavior, the heat spreaders on the
memory modules are *riveted* into place. The metal
on the outside of the DIMM (over top of the chips),
is an essential part of heatsinking them. The metal
surface helps spread the heat. Normal memory patterns
don't "focus" on one chip for too long, so if you're
web surfing, the module is relatively uniformly heated.
But with enough care in a lab experiment, you can make
a "hot spot" on it. So the rivets are there, to prevent
you from removing the cooling solution, and allowing
a single chip to overheat.

Regular DIMM technologies, all the memory chips
are exactly as warm as their neighbor, and they
all do equal amounts of work. The entire module
might average 2W, compared to a RAMBUS chip going
to 4W worst case. And that's why you'll find the
memory in the 8500, might not even have a metal
cooling surface on it. I probably have equal numbers
of DIMMs here, with metal coolers, and ones without,
as the metal cooler really isn't required. But on the
RAMBUS stuff, yes, it's a requirement.

Anyway, before you get carried away, check what is
in there already. If you go to Control Panels,
and use the System control panel, down at the
bottom it may mention how much memory it thinks
is present at the moment.

You could have an 850 Northbridge or an 850E
Northbridge, and I think the RAM type is
different on the respective motherboards. There
may have been two different motherboards for
the 8200, so I have to couch my advice with
respect to not being sure what you've got.

And yes, picking RAM for RAMBUS boards is "loads
of fun" :-) But I bet you suspected that already.
There was one guy on the net who knew this
product inside out, but he's no longer available
to answer questions.

Paul
  #40  
Old July 9th 15, 05:34 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul
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Posts: 18,275
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Mark Twain wrote:
I went through my pictures of the 8200
to locate the card and to see if there would
be any problems before installation.

After seeing your fan setup it looks like there's
a fan on the lower card which has the yellow
plug (stereo).

http://i58.tinypic.com/10x4r9k.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/30t6ziu.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/2aenihg.jpg

Robert


Cards from top to bottom:

1) Video card
2) Sound card with joystick point (15 pin DSUB, 4 audio)
3) Winmodem ? I see an audio cable running from this
card, to what could be Aux on the sound card.
4) NIC card
5) Empty slot

Your machine uses a kind of bus extension - riser card,
and slots 4 and 5 are on the lower PCB assembly. I don't
think that has special properties in this case, but that
is purely a guess on my part. Some riser cards have
bus select issues.

If I was working on the machine, I would probably have to use a
horizontal airflow, rather than blowing air onto the
"face" of the card. You could move the sound card down to
slot five, but I expect Windows would want you to reinstall
the sound card driver package if you did that. It may not
be clever enough to "just work" if you move it. Moving
the sound card down to slot 5, would be for the purpose
of making more room for a video card cooling solution.

1) Video card --- Could blow air in this direction
2) --- if the card needs cooling...
3) Winmodem ? I see an audio cable running from this
card, to what could be Aux on the sound card.
4) NIC card
5) Sound card with joystick point (15 pin DSUB, 4 audio)

*******

And you don't need to move anything, for your very first
test. It'll be OK to just run the new video card in slot
one, while you check for a BIOS screen.

To evaluate how much cooling the card needs, you can
use GPU-Z and get a temperature reading off the card
when it arrives. That's assuming Windows starts OK.
Normally, you would remove the old video card driver,
install the new video card, then install the new video
card driver. (Remember to unplug the computer, before
physically inserting the new card.) But doing a clean
driver operation won't be possible in this case,
so it'll just be a "hope for the best" installation.
You have to install a video card driver, to get the
screen to work at full resolution (bigger than 640x480
or 800x600 resolution).

This is GPU-Z. The "Sensor" tab at the top of the
dialog box, will show the video card temperature.
If it hits 90C, that's too hot for comfort (doesn't
leave any room for gaming or 3D operations). A convection
cooled card could easily hit 65C, and that
would be fine. If it was 90C, then I'd be planning
my cooling project :-)

http://www.techpowerup.com/downloads/SysInfo/GPU-Z/

TechPowerUp GPU-Z v0.8.4 Jun 25, 2015 1.7 MB

You can try clicking this link, and see if it gives
you a file. I don't know if you can hot-link to this
or not. If this link doesn't work, use the other link
and "navigate" to the download. While this link
looks like it might work, I can't be sure.

http://www.techpowerup.com/downloads...start?server=6

HTH,
Paul
  #41  
Old July 9th 15, 07:17 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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From what you say I'm good to go as is. So
no need to mess with the RAM.

I should have explained the pictures were not
recent. The 5th slot is where I just installed
the PCI card with the (4) USB ports so it's not
available.

Since the previous video card worked there's
no reason why this shouldn't although I
understand you reasoning for cooling it as
much as possible.

If there's a real need for cooling after downloading
Techpowerup (the bottom link worked), I suppose
I could remove the Sound Card (I can always put
it back)since I don't have any speakers connected
(I used them for the 8500) and I could put a blank
plate in place.

Can I just disconnect the wires and leave them or
will this affect the NIC card's performance?

Robert


  #42  
Old July 9th 15, 09:11 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul
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Posts: 18,275
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Mark Twain wrote:
From what you say I'm good to go as is. So
no need to mess with the RAM.

I should have explained the pictures were not
recent. The 5th slot is where I just installed
the PCI card with the (4) USB ports so it's not
available.

Since the previous video card worked there's
no reason why this shouldn't although I
understand you reasoning for cooling it as
much as possible.

If there's a real need for cooling after downloading
Techpowerup (the bottom link worked), I suppose
I could remove the Sound Card (I can always put
it back)since I don't have any speakers connected
(I used them for the 8500) and I could put a blank
plate in place.

Can I just disconnect the wires and leave them or
will this affect the NIC card's performance?

Robert


To me, one of the cards looks like a dialup modem.
Do you still use dialup networking ?
Maybe that card could be removed and the
sound card could stay.

Or, you could remove both the dialup modem
and the sound card. The NIC, USB2, and video,
are pretty valuable. I like having the sound,
just for alert sounds. The dialup modem, there
aren't many opportunities to use those any more.
There is still a FreeNet dialup here, but it's
not free :-) It's like $30 a year or so.

Paul

  #43  
Old July 9th 15, 10:27 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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Posts: 2,402
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I use Ethernet, and installed a new card a
few years ago when I was on malwarebytes
forum. I didn't even think of the dial-up
card. That's the third card down that looks
like it has a fan (modem) on it.

I could remove both the sound and dial-up
cards to improve performance but I have only
(1) cover tab for the back. I suppose I could
make something up. If I do remove both just
unplug the wires and maybe label them and
zip tie them together?

I can still keep the cards and re-install
later if I need to. However will this affect
the NIC card?


In passing, I found these while looking around
and have (2) of each.

http://i61.tinypic.com/2rw43t3.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/b3lkeb.jpg

Thanks,
Robert
  #44  
Old July 9th 15, 12:03 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul
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Posts: 18,275
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Mark Twain wrote:
I use Ethernet, and installed a new card a
few years ago when I was on malwarebytes
forum. I didn't even think of the dial-up
card. That's the third card down that looks
like it has a fan (modem) on it.

I could remove both the sound and dial-up
cards to improve performance but I have only
(1) cover tab for the back. I suppose I could
make something up. If I do remove both just
unplug the wires and maybe label them and
zip tie them together?

I can still keep the cards and re-install
later if I need to. However will this affect
the NIC card?


In passing, I found these while looking around
and have (2) of each.

http://i61.tinypic.com/2rw43t3.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/b3lkeb.jpg

Thanks,
Robert


Regarding the cards, removing them remains
an option, if you need room for a cooling solution.
You can make up labels for the wires, as appropriate,
so you can put everything back if need be.

I like to put cards in antistatic bags, at least
until taking them to a recycler. I keep the bags
then, because I can use them for holding more
junk (safely).

The NIC should not be affected by adjacent card changes.
It and the USB card should still work.

Leaving one slot cover open shouldn't hurt anything.
You can always cut up some thin cardboard, and make
a cover if you want (just for airflow). Depending on how the
fans are set up, there is even a possibility that the main
fan could pull cool air through the open slot cover, and
give a "draft" blowing over the video card :-)

The main thing to watch on slot covers, is make sure
they're not shorting to anything on the motherboard end.
Any time I look in there, it always looks deceptively close...

*******

Your statement about what's in your junk pile,
tells you that "something better is now
inside the computer". Those two 128MB modules
and two CRIMM (continuity) cards, would have
been the original stuff from the machine. Since
four items were removed, that means you have
four modules already in the computer. The
slots are full. Since you tossed 128MB modules,
that means the modules in the computer are
likely to be at least 256MB. So you might
already have 256MB * 4 for all I know, or
1GB of RAM. Which is a good amount for WinXP.
There's several things that might require more
RAM.

1) Photoshop. You can never have enough RAM or
fast scratch storage for Photoshop.
2) Virtual Machines (running more than one
OS on the computer). That's why I have more
RAM on this computer. Today, I was running
two VMs at the same time. And 3GB of RAM is
enough to do that.
3) 3D games. Some like a bit more RAM than 1GB
can provide.

And you can measure whether the RAM on the 8200
is adequate, by using Task Manager (the
control-alt-delete thing). The Commit Charge (Peak)
value, collected after a whole day of usage, gives
some idea of the peak amount of RAM used during that
time period. For example, my "Peak" value reads
1.7GB at the moment, and so if I only had 1GB
of physical memory present, that means 0.7GB
of left-overs were stored in the Pagefile (slow).
So based on that single measurement, I know I could
use at least 2GB of physical RAM, so when the daytime
peak occurs, it all fits into DIMMs, and none
goes into the Pagefile. The Pagefile is on the hard
drive, and it chugs pretty slowly. (The 4KB-sized operations
the OS does, don't help matters, and that's why it is slow.
It takes a gazillion commands to the hard drive, to work
with any significant portion of the Pagefile.)

I have a suspicion the max config for your machine,
might be 1.5GB. That would be 2x512MB and 2x256MB.
With the 256MB ones being selected because of the
chain length limit for the chips. If you already
have 4x256MB, I doubt it would make a noticeable
improvement to change two modules to the 512MB size,
and they might also be expensive (as they would be
in more demand than the 128MB RIMMs). It's a wonder
Ebay sellers don't just throw their 128MB RIMMs in
the garbage, because nobody really wants them. Everyone
wants the big modules, so expect a significant "distortion"
to the pricing of such things.

I remember at work, back when memory came in less-wide
modules, someone at work had a drawer full of modules
that had been replaced with higher capacity ones. And
he couldn't find anyone willing to take them. So they
sat in his drawer. Probably hundreds of them. So some
modules are effectively "obsolete", because using
them doesn't give you enough RAM to run an OS. They
really shouldn't have put 128MB modules in the machine
when it was originally sold. They should have used
256MB ones. WinXP with 256MB of RAM, it would
probably boot, but it wouldn't be a lot of fun.

Paul
  #45  
Old July 9th 15, 06:27 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]
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Posts: 1,699
Default O.T. Computer Cleaning Maintenance:

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 18:01:58 -0700 (PDT), Mark Twain
wrote:

I stand corrected Ken

Thanks,



You're welcome. Glad to help.
 




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