Pirated XP

"Alias" wrote:


It has nothing to do with the price of shareware, I agree. I has to do with
the price in three figures of MS, Adobe, etc.

Then why is shareware pirated?

Many shareware developers are getting extremely discouraged. They put
several months of time and effort (say $20,000 in development costs
for the sake of discussion) into creating and testing a utility which
they know will be useful. In order to be fair and reasonable they put
a price of $5 or maybe $10 on the program, hoping to recover their
costs that way and maybe, eventually, make a bit extra.

So what happens? Within a very few days of releasing the new or
updated version the warez and crack sites are full of bootleg copies
and/or cracks for whatever licensing/copy protection scheme the author
might have incorporated into the program.

It has gotten to the point where unless a software writer can recover
his full costs (including wages for the time spent) from the first 3
or 4 sales of his product there is no point in developing it.


Ron Martell Duncan B.C. Canada
--
Microsoft MVP
On-Line Help Computer Service
http://onlinehelp.bc.ca

"The reason computer chips are so small is computers don't eat much."

While I has higher sales (stolen) my two shareware products made me $15 =
(some bloke in England posted me Australian money). I only bother to =
write free applications now. And only prepared to put that level of =
effort in.

The bank used to charge more for clearing international cheques than the =
cost of the software. So I used a agent and e-commerce for the second =
product. The agent made some money.
--=20
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
"Ron Martell" wrote in message =
...
"Alias" wrote:
=20

It has nothing to do with the price of shareware, I agree. I has to do =
with=20
the price in three figures of MS, Adobe, etc.
=20
Then why is shareware pirated? =20
=20
Many shareware developers are getting extremely discouraged. They put
several months of time and effort (say $20,000 in development costs
for the sake of discussion) into creating and testing a utility which
they know will be useful. In order to be fair and reasonable they put
a price of $5 or maybe $10 on the program, hoping to recover their
costs that way and maybe, eventually, make a bit extra.
=20
So what happens? Within a very few days of releasing the new or
updated version the warez and crack sites are full of bootleg copies
and/or cracks for whatever licensing/copy protection scheme the author
might have incorporated into the program.
=20
It has gotten to the point where unless a software writer can recover
his full costs (including wages for the time spent) from the first 3
or 4 sales of his product there is no point in developing it.
=20
=20
Ron Martell Duncan B.C. Canada
--=20
Microsoft MVP
On-Line Help Computer Service
http://onlinehelp.bc.ca
=20
"The reason computer chips are so small is computers don't eat much."

"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote in message
...
: Only to those seeking an excuse to steel what they would most likely steal
: at any price.
: Since they are thieves, they steal...at any price.
:
: --
: Jupiter Jones [MVP]
: http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/

Are you including people who pay for the software and use it on several
machines and let friends copy it or are you referring to the operations with
a room housing 25 computers cranking out 20 XP Pros a minute, along with 20
Eminem albums, to be sold? To me, there is a big difference with the latter
most definitely a thief and the former just trying to keep up and make ends
meet at the end of the month.
--
Alias

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.

Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.
:
:
: "Alias" wrote in message
: ...
: It has nothing to do with the price of shareware, I agree. I has to do
: with
: the price in three figures of MS, Adobe, etc.
: --
: Alias
:
: Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
:
: Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.
:
:
:
:

Interesting point of view, David, and very convincing. Thing is, though, in
the States nowadays, to rent a place to live requires good credit so it's no
wonder there are hundred of thousands of homeless people in the good old,
properous USA. Kinda reminds of you of the days when Dickens was taking pen
to paper. Can I have more?
--
Alias

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.

Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.
"David Candy" . wrote in message
...
Other countries recognise IP (1709 for both our countries from the Statute
Of Anne in England) . But there is a balance between public vs private. The
concessions to private interests are there for the public good. What we have
in the US (and elsewhere) is lobby groups changing the law and the law being
changed to suit private interests. This changes the balance.

Copyright is just one example of private interests ripping off the public.
For instance US and EU farmers are expert at getting both taxpapers AND
consumers to finance their lives.

In Australia, a capitalist country, the process of unwinding rents (only
newsagents can sell newspapers, only chemists can sell drugs, only bottle
shops can sell alcohol) is known as micro economic reform. Rents are
anti-capitalist. Australia's economic growth (the longest in recorded
history) is based on both macro and micro economic reform. Micro economic
reform is harder as vested interests fight to keep their rents, often
professing concern for the workers, or for children (anything emotional).
Capitalist argue that if something is economically distorting but the public
good warrants the goal of the distorting behaviour then the government
should fund that public good directly. An example is public education (and
in Australia public health - employers have no health role in Australia).

In the US in particular the rent seekers have captured your congress.
Participants in a market economy always seek rents to avoid competition. The
enemy of capitalism are the participants. That's why you have an FTC and we
have an ACCC.

Nothing human is black and white. IP is theft and so is stealing IP.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote in message
...
David;
It seems like you are suggesting countries outside the US do not care
about
IP?
If that is true, there is far less incentive to create it.
Perhaps that is one of the reasons a US company is so interested in IP
rights.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/


"David Candy" . wrote in message
...
But alias is right. It is a US thing. The US government is busy coercing
other countries into adopting US law. In Australia, copyright holders were
just given a 20 year free extension of copyright (from 50 years after
death
to 70 years) at the instigation of the US government.

Remember IP is anti capitalist. MS is attempting to become the rentiers
rather than capitalists. Capitalism replaced rents and the system was
called
feudal. That why marxist don't rail against rentiers, we thought they were
long gone.

IP is only a legal fiction that rentiers use to extort money from others.
IP
is actually a crime of theft.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote in message
...
Your feeble attempts to justify theft are noted and likely reflective on
you.

People work hard for their intellectual property just as others do in
other
fields.
They deserve to be paid what they ask or the buyer simply chooses to go
elsewhere same as other fields.

I suppose you take charity, fruits of others efforts and contribute
nothing?
Or do you sell a product or service and yet seem to deny others the same
simply because it is intellectual property?
Good of you to judge that others can't sell at a fair price something you
are unable to provide for yourself.
Perhaps we should arbitrarily let others steal whatever you have with no
punishment even if caught!

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/


"Alias" wrote in message
...

"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote
:
: Please show a source that shows the Spanish courst supporting "people
: copying friends' software" as fair use.
:
: --
: Jupiter Jones [MVP]

http://www.bufetalmeida.com/sentencias/sentencias.html

Gotta be able to read Spanish, though, as I am not going to translate it
for
you. Babelfish will give you an idea, though. Yaknow, the rest of the
world
isn't as rich as the USA, nor is it as anal about intellectual property
rights, especially with software rip off houses that are obscenely rich
from
selling their overpriced software. Some would call the software houses
attempts to stop "piracy" as "greedy" but YMMV.
--
Alias

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.

Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

: "Alias" wrote

: More like the high prices give rise to pirtated versions being
profitable
: and people copying friends' software because they can't afford to
pay
MS'
: high prices. Some people call using pirated versions due to economic
: necesity stealing, others, like the Spanish courts, call that fair
use.
: The
: reason MS charges so much has nothing to do with piracy and
everything
to
: do
: with "because they can".
: --
: Alias
:
: Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email
me.
:
: Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.
:
:
:
:

It was

Please sir, can I have some more. MOOOOOOOOOORE

I do good impersonations of that line from the movie. Kids love it.

--=20
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
"Alias" wrote in message =
...
Interesting point of view, David, and very convincing. Thing is, =
though, in=20
the States nowadays, to rent a place to live requires good credit so =
it's no=20
wonder there are hundred of thousands of homeless people in the good =
old,=20
properous USA. Kinda reminds of you of the days when Dickens was =
taking pen=20
to paper. Can I have more?
--=20
Alias
=20
Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email =
me.
=20
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.
"David Candy" . wrote in message=20
...
Other countries recognise IP (1709 for both our countries from the =
Statute=20
Of Anne in England) . But there is a balance between public vs =
private. The=20
concessions to private interests are there for the public good. What =
we have=20
in the US (and elsewhere) is lobby groups changing the law and the law =
being=20
changed to suit private interests. This changes the balance.
=20
Copyright is just one example of private interests ripping off the =
public.=20
For instance US and EU farmers are expert at getting both taxpapers =
AND=20
consumers to finance their lives.
=20
In Australia, a capitalist country, the process of unwinding rents =
(only=20
newsagents can sell newspapers, only chemists can sell drugs, only =
bottle=20
shops can sell alcohol) is known as micro economic reform. Rents are=20
anti-capitalist. Australia's economic growth (the longest in recorded=20
history) is based on both macro and micro economic reform. Micro =
economic=20
reform is harder as vested interests fight to keep their rents, often=20
professing concern for the workers, or for children (anything =
emotional).=20
Capitalist argue that if something is economically distorting but the =
public=20
good warrants the goal of the distorting behaviour then the government =

should fund that public good directly. An example is public education =
(and=20
in Australia public health - employers have no health role in =
Australia).
=20
In the US in particular the rent seekers have captured your congress.=20
Participants in a market economy always seek rents to avoid =
competition. The=20
enemy of capitalism are the participants. That's why you have an FTC =
and we=20
have an ACCC.
=20
Nothing human is black and white. IP is theft and so is stealing IP.
--=20
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote in message=20
...
David;
It seems like you are suggesting countries outside the US do not care =

about
IP?
If that is true, there is far less incentive to create it.
Perhaps that is one of the reasons a US company is so interested in =
IP
rights.

--=20
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/


"David Candy" . wrote in message
...
But alias is right. It is a US thing. The US government is busy =
coercing
other countries into adopting US law. In Australia, copyright holders =
were
just given a 20 year free extension of copyright (from 50 years after =

death
to 70 years) at the instigation of the US government.

Remember IP is anti capitalist. MS is attempting to become the =
rentiers
rather than capitalists. Capitalism replaced rents and the system was =

called
feudal. That why marxist don't rail against rentiers, we thought they =
were
long gone.

IP is only a legal fiction that rentiers use to extort money from =
others.=20
IP
is actually a crime of theft.
--=20
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote in message
...
Your feeble attempts to justify theft are noted and likely =
reflective on
you.

People work hard for their intellectual property just as others do =
in
other
fields.
They deserve to be paid what they ask or the buyer simply chooses to =
go
elsewhere same as other fields.

I suppose you take charity, fruits of others efforts and contribute
nothing?
Or do you sell a product or service and yet seem to deny others the =
same
simply because it is intellectual property?
Good of you to judge that others can't sell at a fair price =
something you
are unable to provide for yourself.
Perhaps we should arbitrarily let others steal whatever you have =
with no
punishment even if caught!

--=20
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/


"Alias" wrote in message
...

"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote
:
: Please show a source that shows the Spanish courst supporting =
"people
: copying friends' software" as fair use.
:
: --=20
: Jupiter Jones [MVP]

http://www.bufetalmeida.com/sentencias/sentencias.html

Gotta be able to read Spanish, though, as I am not going to =
translate it
for
you. Babelfish will give you an idea, though. Yaknow, the rest of =
the
world
isn't as rich as the USA, nor is it as anal about intellectual =
property
rights, especially with software rip off houses that are obscenely =
rich
from
selling their overpriced software. Some would call the software =
houses
attempts to stop "piracy" as "greedy" but YMMV.
--=20
Alias

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to =
email me.

Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

: "Alias" wrote

: More like the high prices give rise to pirtated versions being
profitable
: and people copying friends' software because they can't afford =
to=20
pay
MS'
: high prices. Some people call using pirated versions due to =
economic
: necesity stealing, others, like the Spanish courts, call that =
fair
use.
: The
: reason MS charges so much has nothing to do with piracy and
everything
to
: do
: with "because they can".
: --=20
: Alias
:
: Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to =
email
me.
:
: Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.
:
:
:
:





=20
=20

"Alias" wrote in message
...

"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote in message
...
: Only to those seeking an excuse to steel what they would most likely
steal
: at any price.
: Since they are thieves, they steal...at any price.
:
: --
: Jupiter Jones [MVP]
: http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/

Are you including people who pay for the software and use it on several
machines and let friends copy it or are you referring to the operations
with
a room housing 25 computers cranking out 20 XP Pros a minute, along with
20
Eminem albums, to be sold? To me, there is a big difference with the
latter
most definitely a thief and the former just trying to keep up and make
ends
meet at the end of the month.
--
Alias


I can't speak for anywhere else exactly, but I can say that in the UK, under
UK law, that the above passage is exactly
how the law sees it.

The home user technically "can be sued by the owner of the copyright", but
he cannot be prosecuted under state criminal law, however, if he is
profiting
then that is comming under more serious categories. This is how I see it,
although recently there have been a few changes in the law that have
apparantly tightened it up.

"Ron Martell" wrote in message
...
"Alias" wrote:


It has nothing to do with the price of shareware, I agree. I has to do
with
the price in three figures of MS, Adobe, etc.

Then why is shareware pirated?

Many shareware developers are getting extremely discouraged. They put
several months of time and effort (say $20,000 in development costs
for the sake of discussion) into creating and testing a utility which
they know will be useful. In order to be fair and reasonable they put
a price of $5 or maybe $10 on the program, hoping to recover their
costs that way and maybe, eventually, make a bit extra.

So what happens? Within a very few days of releasing the new or
updated version the warez and crack sites are full of bootleg copies
and/or cracks for whatever licensing/copy protection scheme the author
might have incorporated into the program.

It has gotten to the point where unless a software writer can recover
his full costs (including wages for the time spent) from the first 3
or 4 sales of his product there is no point in developing it.


Ron Martell Duncan B.C. Canada
--
Microsoft MVP
On-Line Help Computer Service
http://onlinehelp.bc.ca

"The reason computer chips are so small is computers don't eat much."

Yeah and this is the point at where society at large will be damaged. I
think it is the ease of distribution that has changed the actual danger of
this having a real impact on smaller businesses. Ten years ago, a freind
could borrow a CD or a Video fromt he library, maybe make a copy and let a
freind borrow it, or something of that nature, but never before has it been
so easy to just download it from the internet without needing to know the
freind in a physical sense. So that has changed it and why in fact it is
definitely set to become a real worry.

"Dan" wrote in message
...
Here in the U.S. the music industry has started file suits against
individuals who download music illegally. They are sometimes given large
fines. Also, the movie industry is trying to stop too many movies from
being copied now that DVD burners have been out for a while.



Hi Dan
I think in the US that the same laws or similar laws apply I think again it
is covered under civil law suits, hence why they get "fines or sued", I
could be wrong I know that the US attitude is even tougher than in the UK on
intellectual property rights.

"Joe" wrote
:
: "Alias" wrote in message
: ...
:
: "Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote in message
: ...
: : Only to those seeking an excuse to steel what they would most likely
: steal
: : at any price.
: : Since they are thieves, they steal...at any price.
: :
: : --
: : Jupiter Jones [MVP]
: : http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/
:
: Are you including people who pay for the software and use it on several
: machines and let friends copy it or are you referring to the operations
: with
: a room housing 25 computers cranking out 20 XP Pros a minute, along with
: 20
: Eminem albums, to be sold? To me, there is a big difference with the
: latter
: most definitely a thief and the former just trying to keep up and make
: ends
: meet at the end of the month.
: --
: Alias
:
:
: I can't speak for anywhere else exactly, but I can say that in the UK,
under
: UK law, that the above passage is exactly
: how the law sees it.
:
: The home user technically "can be sued by the owner of the copyright", but
: he cannot be prosecuted under state criminal law, however, if he is
: profiting
: then that is comming under more serious categories. This is how I see it,
: although recently there have been a few changes in the law that have
: apparantly tightened it up.

Same thing in Spain, perhaps the whole EU, but I don't know that for sure.
Had Jupiter read the url I posted, he would have seen the judgments that the
Spanish courts have made regarding this but I guess he didn't want to bother
using Babelfish or some other online translator.
--
Alias

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.

Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.
:
:

Quantity is not relevant.
If they are stealing, they are a thief.
The law does not distinguish by quantity whether it is a crime.
Whether the person is stealing one or a thousand, that person is a thief.
There may be a difference in penalty as certain thresholds are passed, but
the person being a thief has not changed

"Keep up"
Another feeble excuse a thief often uses to steal.
No excuse.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/


"Alias" wrote in message
...
Are you including people who pay for the software and use it on several
machines and let friends copy it or are you referring to the operations
with
a room housing 25 computers cranking out 20 XP Pros a minute, along with
20
Eminem albums, to be sold? To me, there is a big difference with the
latter
most definitely a thief and the former just trying to keep up and make
ends
meet at the end of the month.
--
Alias

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.

Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.
:
:
: "Alias" wrote in message
: ...
: It has nothing to do with the price of shareware, I agree. I has to do
: with
: the price in three figures of MS, Adobe, etc.
: --
: Alias
:
: Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email
me.
:
: Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.
:
:
:
:

"Leythos" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
Are you including people who pay for the software and use it on several
machines and let friends copy it or are you referring to the operations
with
a room housing 25 computers cranking out 20 XP Pros a minute, along with
20
Eminem albums, to be sold? To me, there is a big difference with the
latter
most definitely a thief and the former just trying to keep up and make
ends
meet at the end of the month.

Ethically and morally I don't see the difference. If you "borrow" or
"take" a copy and you didn't pay for it, you've stolen it (in the USA at
least).

That is not legally correct, you get into different areas because we are
talkign about an intangible product, the owner does not suffer direct loss
of
that product so it is not the same as physical theft.


If you buy a copy and make 100 copies to give to friends,
they've stolen it, same as if you sold it (just a difference in penalty,
not in the fact that it's still stolen).

The second case is the fact that they are selling goods and are deceiving
people into thinking they are the original
that is actually fraud and deception, you are taking money and cheating
people, again that is why that area falls into criminal law and you can
end up in jail for it.

Technically speaking in the uK at least and I think in the USA as well if
you make a ocpy and sell it to a freind, you are covered under criminal law
but if you give it to him then you are not liable under criminal law.


--
--

(Remove 999 to reply to me)

"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote in message
...
: Quantity is not relevant.

Motivation is relevant.

: If they are stealing, they are a thief.

There are thieves and then there are thieves.

: The law does not distinguish by quantity whether it is a crime.

Yes, it does. Civil suit for copyright infringement, petty theft, grand
theft, bank robbery are all degrees of theft under US law (the only one you
seem to think is morally "right")

: Whether the person is stealing one or a thousand, that person is a thief.

And? Therefore worthy of your scorn and waaaaaaaaaay beneath the perfectly
moral Jupiter?

: There may be a difference in penalty as certain thresholds are passed, but
: the person being a thief has not changed

You've never stolen anything, Jupiter? Never "sinned"? Will you "throw the
first stone"?
:
: "Keep up"
: Another feeble excuse a thief often uses to steal.
: No excuse.
:
: --
: Jupiter Jones [MVP]
: http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/

"Thief", another very effective way to lock poor people up. Can I have more?
--
Alias

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.

Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

:
:
: "Alias" wrote in message
: ...
: Are you including people who pay for the software and use it on several
: machines and let friends copy it or are you referring to the operations
: with
: a room housing 25 computers cranking out 20 XP Pros a minute, along with
: 20
: Eminem albums, to be sold? To me, there is a big difference with the
: latter
: most definitely a thief and the former just trying to keep up and make
: ends
: meet at the end of the month.
: --
: Alias
:
: Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
:
: Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.
: :
: :
: : "Alias" wrote in message
: : ...
: : It has nothing to do with the price of shareware, I agree. I has to
do
: : with
: : the price in three figures of MS, Adobe, etc.
: : --
: : Alias
: :
: : Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email
: me.
: :
: : Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.
: :
: :
: :
: :
:
:
:
:

"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote in message
...
Quantity is not relevant.
If they are stealing, they are a thief.
The law does not distinguish by quantity whether it is a crime.
Whether the person is stealing one or a thousand, that person is a thief.
There may be a difference in penalty as certain thresholds are passed, but
the person being a thief has not changed

I agree with you Jupiter, there have been cases in the UK where someone has
been convicted of stealing a loaf of bread or a tin of beans, and the value
was under a few pounds/dollars. They are still convicted they are still
having a criminal record and in law they are branded a "theif", the same as
if they had stolen a truck load of tins of beans, just the same law and as
you say the penalty might be more severe but the law of theft is the same.

Which is why in the UK and the USA nobody is convicted of "theft" for
breaking copyright law, it is not a criminal offence. It is only a criminal
offence when it is sold as it then becomes fraud.

( I am not 100% about the US law on that but I am fairly sure as well).

Which is why you see people in the US getting sued and not convicted.

"Keep up"
Another feeble excuse a thief often uses to steal.
No excuse.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/


"Alias" wrote in message
...
Are you including people who pay for the software and use it on several
machines and let friends copy it or are you referring to the operations
with
a room housing 25 computers cranking out 20 XP Pros a minute, along with
20
Eminem albums, to be sold? To me, there is a big difference with the
latter
most definitely a thief and the former just trying to keep up and make
ends
meet at the end of the month.
--
Alias

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.

Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.
:
:
: "Alias" wrote in message
: ...
: It has nothing to do with the price of shareware, I agree. I has to
do
: with
: the price in three figures of MS, Adobe, etc.
: --
: Alias
:
: Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email
me.
:
: Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.
:
:
:
:

In article ,
, Jupiter Jones [MVP] says...

Your feeble attempts to justify theft are noted and likely reflective on
you.

People work hard for their intellectual property just as others do in other
fields.
They deserve to be paid what they ask or the buyer simply chooses to go
elsewhere same as other fields.

So what's Bill Gates's excuse for STEALING windows???????? He's a thief
also............

In article , "David Candy" .,
says...

It was

Please sir, can I have some more. MOOOOOOOOOORE

I do good impersonations of that line from the movie. Kids love it.



Or better yet......Yoooooooooou gotta pick a pocket or two!!!