XP OEM - Interesting conversation with MS employee

Michael C wrote:
Last night I upgraded a customers machine with new motherboard, cpu,
memory, video card, netcard and soundcard. The only thing that was
the same was the HDD, dvd drive, tape backup and scsi card. I was
having trouble with the internet so I phoned MS to activate XP again.
After it activated I asked him what the limit is to hardware change
before XP won't activate. He said that XP oem has to always remain on
the same PC to be activated. In return I asked "what constitutes the
same PC?". He kept going around in circles and not answering my
question and just stating that it has to always remain on the same
PC. He never gave me a definition of what "same PC" means. In the end
I asked if it was more of a policy than a technical limitation and he
said "thank you for calling microsoft to activate your software" and
hung up!
I suspect that means that it can be installed on a completely new
machine and will activate ok. Is that true?

Yes, as long as you don't tell them that it is a totally different
computer, they can figure it out from the encrypted PA data, so they
will activate you.

Some MS employees CLAIM that changes the motherboard makes it a new
computer, so be careful about what you tell PA reps, as you might get
one that is of that opinion.

PA is a total waste of time, and if it weren't for the errors it throws
at people, it would be a complete farce!

http://www.microscum.com/mmpafaq/

--
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Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

Woody wrote:


from what Mike Brannigan , an MS employee and frequent poster , has been
saying of late is that it's up to the oem to determine when the original
machine is no longer the original machine . definately a major retreat from
earlier interpretations of the ms oem eula .



No, that's no "retreat." That's what the official policy, as stated by
Microsoft employees, has always been.


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I just sent the following to my MS Partner contact at MS:

********
I have read the EULA, the OEM site documents, but as a MS Partner
company I can not get clarification on what constitutes a "Computer" for
the OEM licensing agreement. The agreement states that the OEM license
is tied to the first "Computer" that it is installed on, so what single
or group of components does MS strictly consider as the "Computer". I
have thought it was the motherboard, but the EULA doesn't state that,
others have suggested that it's the power cord.

Please provide a MS answer that clearly defines what constitutes a
"Computer" so that my customers can upgrade their computers without
violating their OEM licensing agreements.
*******

When I get a reply I will post it - they say it could be 24 hours for a
reply.

--
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remove 999 in order to email me

Leythos wrote:
In article ,
says...
"Leythos" wrote in message
...
You've asked/speculated two different things:

1) What are the rules
2) What can you get away with

One has little to do with the other, the other has a lot to do with
the one, you can read it as you want

That's exactly what I asked him. I asked "if it was more of a policy
than a technical limitation". I don't want to pirate XP but if a
customer has bought XP I'd like to know what I can do to their
machine before a new copy is required. If XP hadn't worked after
their machine was upgraded it would have been a problem and it would
have been good for me to know before hand. I probably should have
found out earlier but there are so many things I should have found
out earlier and MS don't make it easy sometimes. Anyway, it looks
like I can do whatever I want to the machine and it will still work,
which is a good thing. :-)

Actually, you can call MS and ask for Licensing information, not the
activation drones, MS proper and ask for a email/document explaining
licensing. Now, after I've said this, you are also going to get people
telling you that you can do what you want as MS has never taken any
personal user/installer to court over multiple installs against a
single key/license.

In the grand scheme of software licensing, it's up to you to determine
what is right/wrong and what you feel you can get away with. Some of
us are hard-line and purchase a OEM copy considering that additional
MS documents call the Motherboard the defining component, while
others look at the EULA and say that the power cord could be the
single defining component. It's all in what you are comfortable with
until you ASK MS legal what they mean.

LOL! The End User never agree to that post EULA password-protected
webpage that makes the unsubstantiated claim that the MOBO is the
defining component!

And different MS employees tell a different story about at what point
does upgrading components constitute a new and different computer.

Leythos you really should just give it up! The OP actually talked to a
MS employee and couldn't get a straight answer out of him. And why is
that? Because MS rather keep the FUD surrounding when upgrading a
computer turns it into another computer by defining it in the EULA. MS
KNOWS if pressed their POST EULA FUD is in no way enforceable.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

T. Waters wrote:
Wonder if you mean that activation will be denied under these
circumstances? How do you know this?
"Can vs May," or, "one thing I remember from the first grade."


Carey Frisch [MVP] wrote:
Q. "I suspect that means that it can be installed on a completely
new machine and will activate ok. Is that true?"

A. Not if its an OEM version....only a "Retail Version".


Last night I upgraded a customers machine with new motherboard, cpu,
memory, video card, netcard and soundcard. The only thing that was
the same was the HDD, dvd drive, tape backup and scsi card. I was
having trouble with the internet so I phoned MS to activate XP
again. After it activated I asked him what the limit is to hardware
change before XP won't activate. He said that XP oem has to always
remain on the same PC to be activated. In return I asked "what
constitutes the same PC?". He kept going around in circles and not
answering my question and just stating that it has to always remain
on the same PC. He never gave me a definition of what "same PC"
means. In the end I asked if it was more of a policy than a
technical limitation and he said "thank you for calling microsoft to
activate your software" and hung up!

I suspect that means that it can be installed on a completely new
machine and will activate ok. Is that true?



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http://www.avast.com

Carey wouldn't know, all his aswers are from other sources, not from
personal experience. Except for having access to the MS newsgroups, I
doubt he knows how to do anything else with his computer!

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

Michael C wrote:
Last night I upgraded a customers machine with new motherboard, cpu, memory,
video card, netcard and soundcard. The only thing that was the same was the
HDD, dvd drive, tape backup and scsi card. I was having trouble with the
internet so I phoned MS to activate XP again. After it activated I asked him
what the limit is to hardware change before XP won't activate. He said that
XP oem has to always remain on the same PC to be activated. In return I
asked "what constitutes the same PC?". He kept going around in circles and
not answering my question and just stating that it has to always remain on
the same PC. He never gave me a definition of what "same PC" means. In the
end I asked if it was more of a policy than a technical limitation and he
said "thank you for calling microsoft to activate your software" and hung
up!



According to the EULA, an OEM license may not be transferred from
one distinct PC to another PC. However, this most emphatically does not
prohibit one from repairing or upgrading the PC on which an OEM license
is installed.

Now, some people believe that the motherboard is the key component
that defines the "original computer," but the OEM EULA does not make any
such distinction. Others have said that one could successfully argue
that it's the PC's case that is the deciding component, as that is where
one is instructed to affix the OEM CoA label w/Product Key. Again, the
EULA does not specifically define any single component as the computer.
(Licensed Microsoft Systems Builders, who are allowed to distribute
OEM licenses with computers they sell, are contractually obligated to
"define" the computer as the motherboard, but this limitation/definition
can't be applied to the end user until the EULA is re-written.)

Microsoft has, to date, been very careful _not_ publicly to define
when an incrementally upgraded computer ceases to be the original
computer. The closest I've ever seen a Microsoft employee come to this
definition (in a public forum) is to tell the person making the inquiry
to consult the PC's manufacturer. As the OEM license's support is
solely the responsibility of said manufacturer, they should determine
what sort of hardware changes to allow before the warranty and support
agreements are voided. To paraphrase: An incrementally upgraded
computer ceases to be the original computer, as pertains to the OEM
EULA, only when the *OEM* says it's a different computer. If you've
built the system yourself, and used a generic OEM CD, then _you_ are the
"OEM," and _you_ get to decide when you'll no longer support your product.


I suspect that means that it can be installed on a completely new machine
and will activate ok. Is that true?




That depends on the type of OEM installation CD provided. Major OEMs
frequently design the CDs so that the license *cannot* be installed on
other hardware. OEM Recovery/Restore CDs are the same. Further,
Microsoft has just tightened the activation policy in regards to OEM
licenses distributed by the major OEMs.

A generic OEM CD, however, will install on any compatible computer.
So, can an OEM license be moved to a completely different computer?
Yes, if CD isn't locked to a specific BIOS, if the second computer is
compatible, and if the license holder lacks the integrity to abide by
the terms of the EULA, to which he has already agreed to respect. (If
you have such a customer, insist that he pay in cash. You won't be able
to trust his checks or his credit.)


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
both at once. - RAH

Leythos wrote:
I just sent the following to my MS Partner contact at MS:

********
I have read the EULA, the OEM site documents, but as a MS Partner
company I can not get clarification on what constitutes a "Computer"
for the OEM licensing agreement. The agreement states that the OEM
license is tied to the first "Computer" that it is installed on, so
what single or group of components does MS strictly consider as the
"Computer". I have thought it was the motherboard, but the EULA
doesn't state that, others have suggested that it's the power cord.

Please provide a MS answer that clearly defines what constitutes a
"Computer" so that my customers can upgrade their computers without
violating their OEM licensing agreements.
*******

When I get a reply I will post it - they say it could be 24 hours for
a reply.

--

Worthless. It is not in the EULA, no one agreed to it.

Even the EULA is not the law, and if MS wants to sue someone over a
breach of EULA MS has to prove it in court. Just because something is
actually in the EULA, doesn't mean it's enforceable. And if it is not
in the EULA, MS can't PROVE in a court of law that the END USER ever
agreed to it!

If a contractual term is not in that contract, and not agreed to by both
parties, does it make a sound?

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

On Tue, 10 May 2005 23:56:41 GMT, Leythos
wrote:

In article ,
says...
the latest from mike brannigan is that it's the oem that determines when the
original computer is no longer the original computer . so who built the
computer , who bought the oem os and who installed the os on that computer
determines the rules as far as i read it .

Not that I want to get into this again, but if you go into the OEM site
at MS, read around the documents,

You are not bound to anything MS has on their 'site, that
didn't exist at the of purchase and was prominently
displayed to the customer on the packaging or upon direct
inquiry, a very specific pointing to that exact document as
it existed then. However, this of course means that should
the issue arise, one would need have proof of the
then-current documentation provided.

it seemed very clear to me that the
OEM software is tied to the first computer it's installed on, and that
the computer, by MS's documents on the OEM site, indicate that the
Motherboard is the "computer".

When I, as a personal choice, choose OEM, I limit the scope of the
license to the motherboard.


I think that is reasonable... up to a point. It becomes
questionable when an OEM box has it's board fail and the OEM
wants 50% the cost of the system to replace the board so
user seeks another compatible board. That to me isn't same
thing as replacing : board, memory, CPU, video, etc, etc.
In other words, I don't find it reasonable that only the
case remained the same even though that's usually where the
license sticker is. Therein lies the problem for MS, to
clearly define this. Anything they didn't define at the
time can't be added after the fact.

On Wed, 11 May 2005 00:28:46 GMT, Leythos
wrote:


I also said that it's up to each person to interpret what MS means until
the actually call MS and ask for clarification - which I don't expect
many to admit to doing.

That's where you went wrong. MS cannot LATER clarify,
further restrict a license.

There is nothing a call to MS can tell you that isn't
already in the license as shipped.

I'm not suggesting it would be fair to upgrade the entire
system a piece and a time and think an OEM license is still
valid for it, BUT on the other hand neither the seller nor
buyer of the license can further redefine it later.

Bruce Chambers wrote:
Michael C wrote:
Last night I upgraded a customers machine with new motherboard, cpu,
memory, video card, netcard and soundcard. The only thing that was
the same was the HDD, dvd drive, tape backup and scsi card. I was
having trouble with the internet so I phoned MS to activate XP
again. After it activated I asked him what the limit is to hardware
change before XP won't activate. He said that XP oem has to always
remain on the same PC to be activated. In return I asked "what
constitutes the same PC?". He kept going around in circles and not
answering my question and just stating that it has to always remain
on the same PC. He never gave me a definition of what "same PC"
means. In the end I asked if it was more of a policy than a
technical limitation and he said "thank you for calling microsoft to
activate your software" and hung up!



According to the EULA, an OEM license may not be transferred from
one distinct PC to another PC. However, this most emphatically does
not prohibit one from repairing or upgrading the PC on which an OEM
license is installed.

Now, some people believe that the motherboard is the key
component that defines the "original computer," but the OEM EULA does
not make any such distinction. Others have said that one could
successfully argue that it's the PC's case that is the deciding
component, as that is where one is instructed to affix the OEM CoA
label w/Product Key. Again, the EULA does not specifically define
any single component as the computer. (Licensed Microsoft Systems
Builders, who are allowed to distribute
OEM licenses with computers they sell, are contractually obligated to
"define" the computer as the motherboard, but this
limitation/definition can't be applied to the end user until the EULA
is re-written.)

Microsoft has, to date, been very careful _not_ publicly to
define when an incrementally upgraded computer ceases to be the
original computer. The closest I've ever seen a Microsoft employee
come to this definition (in a public forum) is to tell the person
making the inquiry to consult the PC's manufacturer. As the OEM
license's support is
solely the responsibility of said manufacturer, they should determine
what sort of hardware changes to allow before the warranty and support
agreements are voided. To paraphrase: An incrementally upgraded
computer ceases to be the original computer, as pertains to the OEM
EULA, only when the *OEM* says it's a different computer. If you've
built the system yourself, and used a generic OEM CD, then _you_ are
the "OEM," and _you_ get to decide when you'll no longer support your
product.


I suspect that means that it can be installed on a completely new
machine and will activate ok. Is that true?




That depends on the type of OEM installation CD provided. Major OEMs
frequently design the CDs so that the license *cannot* be installed on
other hardware. OEM Recovery/Restore CDs are the same. Further,
Microsoft has just tightened the activation policy in regards to OEM
licenses distributed by the major OEMs.

A generic OEM CD, however, will install on any compatible computer.
So, can an OEM license be moved to a completely different computer?
Yes, if CD isn't locked to a specific BIOS, if the second computer is
compatible, and if the license holder lacks the integrity to abide by
the terms of the EULA, to which he has already agreed to respect. (If
you have such a customer, insist that he pay in cash. You won't be
able to trust his checks or his credit.)

Bruce your explanation of OEM support of Windows XP was very enlightening
You got to the actual point of limiting the OEM to the first machine. So I
found it odd that you summed up that brilliant and rational explanation with
a simplistic statement as to the morals of a person who moves OEM XP to
another computer. They are not violating the MS intent of freeing the OEM
from supporting an OS on a computer the OEM did not build! Are you devoutly
religious, by any chance?

On Tue, 10 May 2005 23:42:05 GMT, Leythos
wrote:



Actually, you can call MS and ask for Licensing information, not the
activation drones, MS proper and ask for a email/document explaining
licensing.

No, you quite specifically cannot do this.
It is not binding to add terms and not legal to try to
enfore them. Of all possible avenues, MS cannot supply you
with "Further" details about a license that weren't already
part of that license. If someone simply can't find their
EULA then they might be SOL.


In the grand scheme of software licensing, it's up to you to determine
what is right/wrong and what you feel you can get away with. Some of us
are hard-line and purchase a OEM copy considering that additional MS
documents call the Motherboard the defining component,

That's not "hard-line", that's ignorance.
If the license agreement that came with the product
specifies the motherboard, then it is (a) defining
component. It is improper and pointless to make any mention
at all of "additional MS documents". If those documents had
told you that you are bound to reformat your hard drive
every 7 days, would you do that too?


while others look
at the EULA and say that the power cord could be the single defining
component. It's all in what you are comfortable with until you ASK MS
legal what they mean.

No reasonable person will conclude the power cord is a
defining component, UNLESS the license was purchased with
that cord, if the EULA allows it.

It is NOT "what you are comfortable with until you ask MS
legal".

MS legal cannot add, subtract, or redefine a EULA after the
sale.

In article ,
says...
And different MS employees tell a different story about at what point
does upgrading components constitute a new and different computer.

Leythos you really should just give it up! The OP actually talked to a
MS employee and couldn't get a straight answer out of him. And why is
that? Because MS rather keep the FUD surrounding when upgrading a
computer turns it into another computer by defining it in the EULA. MS
KNOWS if pressed their POST EULA FUD is in no way enforceable.

What part of "my personal" did you miss - Hell, I even stated your and
Alias's positions of being able to do anything you want.

I've not made a statement as to one or the other being fact in this
thread.

--
--

remove 999 in order to email me

In article ,
says...
Those of us that ain't MS partners and have absolutely no conflict of
interest when it comes to having business dealings with MS have never
agree, and most have never even seen the password protected web site of
FUD about the mobo is the computer and bill gates is god!

And I stated that he (actually anyone) could do what they want on a
personal level. I never stated that anyone has to follow anything.

You are remembering and making more out of it this time than I said - I
DID NOT TAKE SIDES OR A STANCE ON IT THIS TIME. I EVEN SUGGESTED IT WAS
UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL.


--
--

remove 999 in order to email me

Not that I want to get into this again

why not , you feel free to spread youre opinion

When I, as a personal choice, choose OEM, I limit the scope of the
license to the motherboard.

why ? to place limitations on your customers that don't exist ?

Bruce Chambers wrote:
Woody wrote:


from what Mike Brannigan , an MS employee and frequent poster , has
been saying of late is that it's up to the oem to determine when the
original machine is no longer the original machine . definately a
major retreat from earlier interpretations of the ms oem eula .



No, that's no "retreat." That's what the official policy, as stated
by Microsoft employees, has always been.

Tell it to Lameboy, and his password-protected system builder web page!

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"