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Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 11th 10, 05:33 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Bill in Co
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,927
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

Some FYI here, and a question or two, on disk cloning:

One thing I found interesting (annoying, actually) was that after cloning my
main system drive to a brand new one and putting the new one in, several
programs needed to be reactivated. Apparently this is due to the disk-id's
being different for each drive. It appears that several programs use that
disk-id as a basis for copy protection validation, so if you replace your
source drive, be aware. It's a bit annoying. :-)

Acronis True Image (at least my older version, True Home 11), does NOT clone
the disk-id as part of the MBR

Actually, if anyone happens to know of an inexpensive cloning program that
does clone over the disk-id (at least as an option), it would be good to
hear. Perhaps Clonezilla does, or something like that? I think the newer
and more bloated versions of Acronis can allow for it.

At any rate, I was thinking another way around this would be to extract the
disk-id of the original ID (maybe it's even stored in the registry, or
somewhere in an older image backup) and then use a disk editor to write that
hex value to the MBR in place of the current one, although this sounds a bit
risky. Has anyone ever tried that?

It probably would be simpler to just find some disk cloning program that
*actually copies the entire MBR minus the partition table but *including*
the disk-id, and redoing this, if I understand this right.

Otherwise, one is forced to go through the hassle of reactivating the
variouus programs as the incidents show up.


Ads
  #2  
Old November 11th 10, 11:20 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Bill in Co
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,927
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

Addended:

Should probably forget this one: In retrospect, it's a LOT simpler to just
reactivate the various programs, as needbe. (Of course, if the company is
now out of business, you're out of luck on this reactivation thing).

Bill in Co wrote:
Some FYI here, and a question or two, on disk cloning:

One thing I found interesting (annoying, actually) was that after cloning
my
main system drive to a brand new one, and putting the new one in, several
programs needed to be reactivated. Apparently this is due to the
disk-id's
being different for each drive. It appears that several programs use
that
disk-id as a basis for some copy protection validation, so if you replace
your
source drive, be aware of this bugaboo. It's a bit annoying. :-)

Acronis True Image (at least my older version, True Home 11), does NOT
clone the disk-id as part of the MBR. (but I didn't try the
sector-to-sector approach, but it may not work either here)


One way out of this might be to just find some disk cloning program that
actually copies the entire MBR (minus the partition table) BUT *including*
the old "disk-id" too, if I understand this correctly.


But as I wrote above, in the end it's probably simpler to just reactivate
them, even if it is a bit of a nuisance.


  #3  
Old November 11th 10, 12:31 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
John John - MVP[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,637
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing newreactivation

On 11/11/2010 12:33 AM, Bill in Co wrote:
Some FYI here, and a question or two, on disk cloning:

One thing I found interesting (annoying, actually) was that after cloning my
main system drive to a brand new one and putting the new one in, several
programs needed to be reactivated. Apparently this is due to the disk-id's
being different for each drive. It appears that several programs use that
disk-id as a basis for copy protection validation, so if you replace your
source drive, be aware. It's a bit annoying. :-)

Acronis True Image (at least my older version, True Home 11), does NOT clone
the disk-id as part of the MBR

Actually, if anyone happens to know of an inexpensive cloning program that
does clone over the disk-id (at least as an option), it would be good to
hear. Perhaps Clonezilla does, or something like that? I think the newer
and more bloated versions of Acronis can allow for it.

At any rate, I was thinking another way around this would be to extract the
disk-id of the original ID (maybe it's even stored in the registry, or
somewhere in an older image backup) and then use a disk editor to write that
hex value to the MBR in place of the current one, although this sounds a bit
risky. Has anyone ever tried that?

It probably would be simpler to just find some disk cloning program that
*actually copies the entire MBR minus the partition table but *including*
the disk-id, and redoing this, if I understand this right.

Otherwise, one is forced to go through the hassle of reactivating the
variouus programs as the incidents show up.


I gave up on Acronis a few years ago, it has become an enormously
bloated piece of software, it has long tentacles and it hooks itself
quite deeply in the operating system and when it causes problems it
tends to be extremely difficult to completely remove. The last straw
with Acronis came when we installed a new version which required the
license server to work properly, the thing completely screwed up our
backup server to the point where the the only sensible thing to do to
fix the server was to flatten and rebuild it. I then switched to
Terabyte's Image for Windows (which comes with a DOS counterpart) and it
works like a charm, I couldn't be happier with this utility! It's small
and it doesn't have any fancy bells and whistles but it works really
well, it has an option that will restore disk signatures.

John

  #4  
Old November 11th 10, 12:34 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Tim Meddick[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,020
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

Whether or not what you call the disk id (serial number) is reproduced in
the boot sector or not, the system, or any program that asks, can get a hd
serial number by querying the hard-drive directly...

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"Bill in Co" wrote in message
m...
Some FYI here, and a question or two, on disk cloning:

One thing I found interesting (annoying, actually) was that after cloning
my main system drive to a brand new one and putting the new one in,
several programs needed to be reactivated. Apparently this is due to
the disk-id's being different for each drive. It appears that several
programs use that disk-id as a basis for copy protection validation, so
if you replace your source drive, be aware. It's a bit annoying. :-)

Acronis True Image (at least my older version, True Home 11), does NOT
clone the disk-id as part of the MBR

Actually, if anyone happens to know of an inexpensive cloning program
that does clone over the disk-id (at least as an option), it would be
good to hear. Perhaps Clonezilla does, or something like that? I think
the newer and more bloated versions of Acronis can allow for it.

At any rate, I was thinking another way around this would be to extract
the disk-id of the original ID (maybe it's even stored in the registry,
or somewhere in an older image backup) and then use a disk editor to
write that hex value to the MBR in place of the current one, although
this sounds a bit risky. Has anyone ever tried that?

It probably would be simpler to just find some disk cloning program that
*actually copies the entire MBR minus the partition table but *including*
the disk-id, and redoing this, if I understand this right.

Otherwise, one is forced to go through the hassle of reactivating the
variouus programs as the incidents show up.


  #5  
Old November 11th 10, 08:35 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Bill in Co
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,927
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

John John - MVP wrote:
On 11/11/2010 12:33 AM, Bill in Co wrote:
Some FYI here, and a question or two, on disk cloning:

One thing I found interesting (annoying, actually) was that after cloning
my
main system drive to a brand new one and putting the new one in, several
programs needed to be reactivated. Apparently this is due to the
disk-id's
being different for each drive. It appears that several programs use
that
disk-id as a basis for copy protection validation, so if you replace your
source drive, be aware. It's a bit annoying. :-)

Acronis True Image (at least my older version, True Home 11), does NOT
clone
the disk-id as part of the MBR

Actually, if anyone happens to know of an inexpensive cloning program
that
does clone over the disk-id (at least as an option), it would be good to
hear. Perhaps Clonezilla does, or something like that? I think the
newer
and more bloated versions of Acronis can allow for it.

At any rate, I was thinking another way around this would be to extract
the
disk-id of the original ID (maybe it's even stored in the registry, or
somewhere in an older image backup) and then use a disk editor to write
that
hex value to the MBR in place of the current one, although this sounds a
bit
risky. Has anyone ever tried that?

It probably would be simpler to just find some disk cloning program that
*actually copies the entire MBR minus the partition table but *including*
the disk-id, and redoing this, if I understand this right.

Otherwise, one is forced to go through the hassle of reactivating the
variouus programs as the incidents show up.


I gave up on Acronis a few years ago, it has become an enormously
bloated piece of software, it has long tentacles and it hooks itself
quite deeply in the operating system and when it causes problems it
tends to be extremely difficult to completely remove. The last straw
with Acronis came when we installed a new version which required the
license server to work properly, the thing completely screwed up our
backup server to the point where the the only sensible thing to do to
fix the server was to flatten and rebuild it.


Wow. Bad news!

I then switched to
Terabyte's Image for Windows (which comes with a DOS counterpart) and it
works like a charm, I couldn't be happier with this utility! It's small
and it doesn't have any fancy bells and whistles but it works really
well, it has an option that will restore disk signatures.

John


The newer versions are indeed more bloated. I have the older True Image 11
Home, fortunately. :-)

But "Image For Windows" is an image backup and restore program, not a
cloning program (at least to my recollection), per se. Couldn't that be a
potential disadvantage for the cases of where you simply wanted to clone a
whole drive?
In the past I have used BootIt NG (in Maintenance Mode) for partition
copies, however, and still do on my Win98SE computer (using a bootable
floppy). As you say, no fancy bells and whistles - just the basics. :-)

As for the rest of the time, I agree with you on using images and restoring
them - it's a lot more convenient for me doing so, for archival purposes.


  #6  
Old November 11th 10, 08:41 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Bill in Co
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,927
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

Everybody except me. :-) But even if I could get it, I'd have to use a
hex editor and write its exact value back into the source drives MBR to
negate this one issue - a bit risky, at that. :-)

What I found interesting was that only a few programs apparently make use of
that for copy protection and activation purposes. I can see the advantage
of doing so from the software manufacturer's viewpoint, however. But for
the user it can be a bit of a nuisance, and nasty if the company goes out of
business (then your software that checked that disk identification ID
becomes effectively useless)

Tim Meddick wrote:
Whether or not what you call the disk id (serial number) is reproduced in
the boot sector or not, the system, or any program that asks, can get a hd
serial number by querying the hard-drive directly...

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"Bill in Co" wrote in message
m...
Some FYI here, and a question or two, on disk cloning:

One thing I found interesting (annoying, actually) was that after cloning
my main system drive to a brand new one and putting the new one in,
several programs needed to be reactivated. Apparently this is due to
the disk-id's being different for each drive. It appears that several
programs use that disk-id as a basis for copy protection validation, so
if you replace your source drive, be aware. It's a bit annoying. :-)

Acronis True Image (at least my older version, True Home 11), does NOT
clone the disk-id as part of the MBR

Actually, if anyone happens to know of an inexpensive cloning program
that does clone over the disk-id (at least as an option), it would be
good to hear. Perhaps Clonezilla does, or something like that? I think
the newer and more bloated versions of Acronis can allow for it.

At any rate, I was thinking another way around this would be to extract
the disk-id of the original ID (maybe it's even stored in the registry,
or somewhere in an older image backup) and then use a disk editor to
write that hex value to the MBR in place of the current one, although
this sounds a bit risky. Has anyone ever tried that?

It probably would be simpler to just find some disk cloning program that
*actually copies the entire MBR minus the partition table but *including*
the disk-id, and redoing this, if I understand this right.

Otherwise, one is forced to go through the hassle of reactivating the
variouus programs as the incidents show up.



  #7  
Old November 12th 10, 12:47 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
John John - MVP[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,637
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing newreactivation

On 11/11/2010 3:35 PM, Bill in Co wrote:
John John - MVP wrote:
On 11/11/2010 12:33 AM, Bill in Co wrote:
Some FYI here, and a question or two, on disk cloning:

One thing I found interesting (annoying, actually) was that after cloning
my
main system drive to a brand new one and putting the new one in, several
programs needed to be reactivated. Apparently this is due to the
disk-id's
being different for each drive. It appears that several programs use
that
disk-id as a basis for copy protection validation, so if you replace your
source drive, be aware. It's a bit annoying. :-)

Acronis True Image (at least my older version, True Home 11), does NOT
clone
the disk-id as part of the MBR

Actually, if anyone happens to know of an inexpensive cloning program
that
does clone over the disk-id (at least as an option), it would be good to
hear. Perhaps Clonezilla does, or something like that? I think the
newer
and more bloated versions of Acronis can allow for it.

At any rate, I was thinking another way around this would be to extract
the
disk-id of the original ID (maybe it's even stored in the registry, or
somewhere in an older image backup) and then use a disk editor to write
that
hex value to the MBR in place of the current one, although this sounds a
bit
risky. Has anyone ever tried that?

It probably would be simpler to just find some disk cloning program that
*actually copies the entire MBR minus the partition table but *including*
the disk-id, and redoing this, if I understand this right.

Otherwise, one is forced to go through the hassle of reactivating the
variouus programs as the incidents show up.


I gave up on Acronis a few years ago, it has become an enormously
bloated piece of software, it has long tentacles and it hooks itself
quite deeply in the operating system and when it causes problems it
tends to be extremely difficult to completely remove. The last straw
with Acronis came when we installed a new version which required the
license server to work properly, the thing completely screwed up our
backup server to the point where the the only sensible thing to do to
fix the server was to flatten and rebuild it.


Wow. Bad news!

I then switched to
Terabyte's Image for Windows (which comes with a DOS counterpart) and it
works like a charm, I couldn't be happier with this utility! It's small
and it doesn't have any fancy bells and whistles but it works really
well, it has an option that will restore disk signatures.

John


The newer versions are indeed more bloated. I have the older True Image 11
Home, fortunately. :-)

But "Image For Windows" is an image backup and restore program, not a
cloning program (at least to my recollection), per se. Couldn't that be a
potential disadvantage for the cases of where you simply wanted to clone a
whole drive?


Not really, you can restore the image to a new disk. I think that the
newer versions have a "Copy" feature, which is in fact a cloning action.

John
  #8  
Old November 13th 10, 03:37 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Bill in Co
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,927
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

John John - MVP wrote:
On 11/11/2010 3:35 PM, Bill in Co wrote:
John John - MVP wrote:
On 11/11/2010 12:33 AM, Bill in Co wrote:
Some FYI here, and a question or two, on disk cloning:

One thing I found interesting (annoying, actually) was that after
cloning
my
main system drive to a brand new one and putting the new one in,
several
programs needed to be reactivated. Apparently this is due to the
disk-id's
being different for each drive. It appears that several programs use
that
disk-id as a basis for copy protection validation, so if you replace
your
source drive, be aware. It's a bit annoying. :-)

Acronis True Image (at least my older version, True Home 11), does NOT
clone
the disk-id as part of the MBR

Actually, if anyone happens to know of an inexpensive cloning program
that
does clone over the disk-id (at least as an option), it would be good
to
hear. Perhaps Clonezilla does, or something like that? I think the
newer
and more bloated versions of Acronis can allow for it.

At any rate, I was thinking another way around this would be to extract
the disk-id of the original ID (maybe it's even stored in the registry,
or
somewhere in an older image backup) and then use a disk editor to write
that
hex value to the MBR in place of the current one, although this sounds
a
bit risky. Has anyone ever tried that?

It probably would be simpler to just find some disk cloning program
that
*actually copies the entire MBR minus the partition table but
*including*
the disk-id, and redoing this, if I understand this right.

Otherwise, one is forced to go through the hassle of reactivating the
various programs as the incidents show up.

I gave up on Acronis a few years ago, it has become an enormously
bloated piece of software, it has long tentacles and it hooks itself
quite deeply in the operating system and when it causes problems it
tends to be extremely difficult to completely remove. The last straw
with Acronis came when we installed a new version which required the
license server to work properly, the thing completely screwed up our
backup server to the point where the the only sensible thing to do to
fix the server was to flatten and rebuild it.


Wow. Bad news!

I then switched to
Terabyte's Image for Windows (which comes with a DOS counterpart) and it
works like a charm, I couldn't be happier with this utility! It's small
and it doesn't have any fancy bells and whistles but it works really
well, it has an option that will restore disk signatures.

John


The newer versions are indeed more bloated. I have the older True Image
11
Home, fortunately. :-)

But "Image For Windows" is an image backup and restore program, not a
cloning program (at least to my recollection), per se. Couldn't that be
a
potential disadvantage for the cases of where you simply wanted to clone
a
whole drive?


Not really, you can restore the image to a new disk.


Assuming that restoration of the image proceeds correctly. :-) (with a
direct clone you bypass that requirement, of course)

I generally like imaging (and restoring images) better for most work, except
for some specific cases like this one, where a pure cloning operation sounds
more appropos)

I think that the
newer versions have a "Copy" feature, which is in fact a cloning action.


Good to hear.
I just feel that each tool (imaging or cloning) has its own best place. :-)


  #9  
Old November 14th 10, 03:27 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Bill in Co
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,927
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

WaIIy wrote:
On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 21:33:11 -0700, "Bill in Co"
wrote:

Some FYI here, and a question or two, on disk cloning:

One thing I found interesting (annoying, actually) was that after cloning
my
main system drive to a brand new one and putting the new one in, several
programs needed to be reactivated. Apparently this is due to the
disk-id's
being different for each drive. It appears that several programs use
that
disk-id as a basis for copy protection validation, so if you replace your
source drive, be aware. It's a bit annoying. :-)

Acronis True Image (at least my older version, True Home 11), does NOT
clone the disk-id as part of the MBR

Actually, if anyone happens to know of an inexpensive cloning program
that
does clone over the disk-id (at least as an option), it would be good to
hear. Perhaps Clonezilla does, or something like that? I think the
newer
and more bloated versions of Acronis can allow for it.

At any rate, I was thinking another way around this would be to extract
the
disk-id of the original ID (maybe it's even stored in the registry, or
somewhere in an older image backup) and then use a disk editor to write
that
hex value to the MBR in place of the current one, although this sounds a
bit
risky. Has anyone ever tried that?

It probably would be simpler to just find some disk cloning program that
*actually copies the entire MBR minus the partition table but *including*
the disk-id, and redoing this, if I understand this right.

Otherwise, one is forced to go through the hassle of reactivating the
various programs as the incidents show up.


I've used Casper on several computers with a lot of software on them and
it's perfect every time.


I found out that only a handful of programs I had apparently made use of
that disk identification status, so it wasn't such a big deal afterall.
I'm beginning to suspect that most of the programs don't, or at least many
of the somewhat older ones.

So who knows if Casper or some other cloning programs really do copy over
the disk-id (they don't usually go into that much detail when you look at
their specs).

I can see why most wouldn't copy the disk-id, however, since each disk is
supposed to have its own unique disk-id.


  #10  
Old November 14th 10, 04:29 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Tester[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 341
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing newreactivation



Bill in Co wrote:



So who knows if Casper or some other cloning programs really do copy over
the disk-id (they don't usually go into that much detail when you look at
their specs).

I can see why most wouldn't copy the disk-id, however, since each disk is
supposed to have its own unique disk-id.



You can copy the exact disk serial number on to the clone system.
Before you can do this, you need to run the following at cmd prompt on
the old system:

volume [press enter)

You should get:
Volume in Drive C has
Volume serial number is: xxxx-xxxx

Now to change the volume serial number on the cloned system, just use
the following tool at the cmd prompt:

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb897436.aspx

The proper way to use the tools is:
volumeid c: xxxx-xxxx

This would do the trick even for Windows activation.

hth
  #11  
Old November 14th 10, 05:43 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Tim Meddick[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,020
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

One more time.......

The disk (volume) has it's VolumeID - that IS written into the partition.
However, that is an intrinsic part of the data that disk-cloning WOULD
include in any copies it made.

That makes it NOT the cause of sudden requests by software for
"re-activation"!

No - the only thing that makes any sense is this; that if you try to start
the software from a cloned copy of a disk it will compare the DiskID (or
hard-drive serial number) with one contained in the registry (which would
have been gathered on installation) and found a discrepancy between it's
recorded DiskID and that of the current hard-drive.

The VolumeID (that is written into the bootsector) has got nothing to do
with it.

(That's the number that shows up when you type VOL C: at the prompt)

Otherwise one could not use such utilities as volid.exe to alter the volume
serial number (VolumeID) without Windows wanting re-activation all the
time....

Just changed my SYSTEM drive's VolumeID from 1AD1-ABE1 to 0000-0000 and
guess what? - No problems at all!!

But the hard-drive's serial number is hard-encoded into the firmware
components on the hard-drive itself and can be queried by any software that
want to know it!

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"Bill in Co" wrote in message
m...
Everybody except me. :-) But even if I could get it, I'd have to use
a hex editor and write its exact value back into the source drives MBR to
negate this one issue - a bit risky, at that. :-)

What I found interesting was that only a few programs apparently make use
of that for copy protection and activation purposes. I can see the
advantage of doing so from the software manufacturer's viewpoint,
however. But for the user it can be a bit of a nuisance, and nasty if
the company goes out of business (then your software that checked that
disk identification ID becomes effectively useless)

Tim Meddick wrote:
Whether or not what you call the disk id (serial number) is reproduced
in
the boot sector or not, the system, or any program that asks, can get a
hd
serial number by querying the hard-drive directly...

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"Bill in Co" wrote in message
m...
Some FYI here, and a question or two, on disk cloning:

One thing I found interesting (annoying, actually) was that after
cloning
my main system drive to a brand new one and putting the new one in,
several programs needed to be reactivated. Apparently this is due to
the disk-id's being different for each drive. It appears that several
programs use that disk-id as a basis for copy protection validation, so
if you replace your source drive, be aware. It's a bit annoying. :-)

Acronis True Image (at least my older version, True Home 11), does NOT
clone the disk-id as part of the MBR

Actually, if anyone happens to know of an inexpensive cloning program
that does clone over the disk-id (at least as an option), it would be
good to hear. Perhaps Clonezilla does, or something like that? I
think
the newer and more bloated versions of Acronis can allow for it.

At any rate, I was thinking another way around this would be to extract
the disk-id of the original ID (maybe it's even stored in the registry,
or somewhere in an older image backup) and then use a disk editor to
write that hex value to the MBR in place of the current one, although
this sounds a bit risky. Has anyone ever tried that?

It probably would be simpler to just find some disk cloning program
that
*actually copies the entire MBR minus the partition table but
*including*
the disk-id, and redoing this, if I understand this right.

Otherwise, one is forced to go through the hassle of reactivating the
variouus programs as the incidents show up.




  #12  
Old November 14th 10, 07:27 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Hot-Text
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 158
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

That why I only use Windows 98 Series Book Disk
Fdisk
To set up The Partitions and to Activation one of the Drives!

Activation Partition is C: Root
http://mynews.ath.cx/doc/winsys/Sys/..._win2000-E.jpg

Activation Partition is Her is E: Win98
http://mynews.ath.cx/doc/winsys/Sys/..._win2000-F.jpg

I only Format a Partition Drive_Vol with the OS I am putting on it!
If I Installing more then one OS Software
The First Drv1_Vol1, I do not Format That Partition at all, But make
Activity only!
On Drv1_Vol2 I install the First OS on it
For the OS will Format Drv1_Vol1, and Drv1_Vol2
On Drv1_Vol2 the OS Software will install it Folder on,
And on Drv1_Vol1 it well install all of it Boot files Too!

Sec. OS Software install to Drv1_Vol3 And Up!
Keeping Drv1_Vol1 So a Root Boot!

Mr. Bill in Co : it a is the right way and The Linux Windows way of doing
things!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xandros...Systems_Center



  #13  
Old November 14th 10, 10:08 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
bobster[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 28
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

?"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
I've used Casper for several years. For me, it works perfect -- every
time.

I have 3 WD320 gig disks, two in the internal SATA3 slots and the third in
an external Vantec box connected to my 3rd internal SATA3 port. I use the
#I internal positioned one as my "C" drive, with Windows 7 IE9Beta and many
apps installed. I have my old XP IE8 and apps on the #2 internal position
and a clone of the "C" in the external mounted one. I do a clone operation
from the internal "C" drive to the external drive about once a month or more
often if I have made significant changes to the "C" configuration.

With the above configuration, I can boot from any one of the three drives by
pressing F12 (I have a Dell Inspiron 530) during the boot up sequence and
selecting the desired drive. All three are fully bootable and using Casper,
I can clone any one to any other one and they will boot without fail. For
me, it is the perfect back up system. I even have a fourth WD320 drive
that I mount temporarily in the external box about every six months and
clone my "C" drive to it. I store that disk in a fireproof safe in case my
house burns down.

I tried Acronis once and found it to be slow and unwieldy to use. The only
drawback with Casper is that it clones everything that is on the drive --
no incremental capability, and after the first "learning" clone it takes
only about 7-8 minutes per run for the 60g of data. The way I use Casper
this lack of incremental capability is not a problem. For me cloning is the
ideal backup technique "IF" you keep a squeaky clean "C" drive. I use
Microsoft Security Essentials and double check with Malwarebytes and
SUPERAntiSpyware weekly. Recognize that if you have an infected "C" drive
and clone it to a backup drive you will perpetuate the infections, so
vigilance with regard to viruses and spyware is essential.

HTH


================================================== ================================================== ============================



On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 21:33:11 -0700, "Bill in Co"
wrote:

Some FYI here, and a question or two, on disk cloning:

One thing I found interesting (annoying, actually) was that after cloning
my
main system drive to a brand new one and putting the new one in, several
programs needed to be reactivated. Apparently this is due to the
disk-id's
being different for each drive. It appears that several programs use that
disk-id as a basis for copy protection validation, so if you replace your
source drive, be aware. It's a bit annoying. :-)

Acronis True Image (at least my older version, True Home 11), does NOT
clone
the disk-id as part of the MBR

Actually, if anyone happens to know of an inexpensive cloning program that
does clone over the disk-id (at least as an option), it would be good to
hear. Perhaps Clonezilla does, or something like that? I think the newer
and more bloated versions of Acronis can allow for it.

At any rate, I was thinking another way around this would be to extract the
disk-id of the original ID (maybe it's even stored in the registry, or
somewhere in an older image backup) and then use a disk editor to write
that
hex value to the MBR in place of the current one, although this sounds a
bit
risky. Has anyone ever tried that?

It probably would be simpler to just find some disk cloning program that
*actually copies the entire MBR minus the partition table but *including*
the disk-id, and redoing this, if I understand this right.

Otherwise, one is forced to go through the hassle of reactivating the
variouus programs as the incidents show up.


I've used Casper on several computers with a lot of software on them and
it's perfect every time.


  #14  
Old November 14th 10, 11:10 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Bill in Co
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,927
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

Tim Meddick wrote:
One more time.......

The disk (volume) has it's VolumeID - that IS written into the partition.


I don't think I'm talking about any "volume ID" here. I'm talking about a
unique *disk identification number*, a string of hex digits, apparently
stored within the MBR. It is called the disk-id or the disk identification
number, not the volume number.

However, that is an intrinsic part of the data that disk-cloning WOULD
include in any copies it made.


And no, it doesn't! It wasn't until the most recent versions of Acronis
True Image that you even had the OPTION of cloning the *disk id*! The
recent versions provide a checkbox for just that (along with the MBR) if you
choose to select it. Otherwise, it is NOT copied over to the new drive.

You can go check that out (I already read about it, and even tried this
thing out with a demo of a newer version to compare with my somewhat older
version. The new version has this special checkbox option, but the older
ones don't.

Plus if you research this on the Internet, you'll see where the exact issue
I've been talking about has come up for several other people (i.e., after
cloning, some programs needed reactivation, due to this disk-id issue).

That makes it NOT the cause of sudden requests by software for
"re-activation"!


I respectively disagree, because I think we're talking about two different
things here. But if you've got a reference article that proves me wrong on
my assumptions, I'll look it up. (meaning it categorically states that the
volume ID is the same as the "disk-id" or "disk identification number".

No - the only thing that makes any sense is this; that if you try to start
the software from a cloned copy of a disk it will compare the DiskID (or
hard-drive serial number) with one contained in the registry (which would
have been gathered on installation) and found a discrepancy between it's
recorded DiskID and that of the current hard-drive.

The VolumeID (that is written into the bootsector) has got nothing to do
with it.

(That's the number that shows up when you type VOL C: at the prompt)


Again, which, AFAIK, is NOT what I'm talking about.

You may need a hard disk editor to find out its value, unless its value is
stored in the registry, and I'm not sure it really is. (Or one could have
a low level subroutine within one's program that could access the
disk/firmware to find out its value).

But again, I'm not talking about a "volume ID" here. (Paul can correct me
if I'm wrong here, however :-) These are two different things: volume id
and disk identification number, I do believe.

Otherwise one could not use such utilities as volid.exe to alter the
volume
serial number (VolumeID) without Windows wanting re-activation all the
time....

Just changed my SYSTEM drive's VolumeID from 1AD1-ABE1 to 0000-0000
and guess what? - No problems at all!!

But the hard-drive's serial number is hard-encoded into the firmware
components on the hard-drive itself and can be queried by any software
that
want to know it!


But that, I think, I believe.


==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"Bill in Co" wrote in message
m...
Everybody except me. :-) But even if I could get it, I'd have to use
a hex editor and write its exact value back into the source drives MBR to
negate this one issue - a bit risky, at that. :-)

What I found interesting was that only a few programs apparently make use
of that for copy protection and activation purposes. I can see the
advantage of doing so from the software manufacturer's viewpoint,
however. But for the user it can be a bit of a nuisance, and nasty if
the company goes out of business (then your software that checked that
disk identification ID becomes effectively useless)

Tim Meddick wrote:
Whether or not what you call the disk id (serial number) is reproduced
in
the boot sector or not, the system, or any program that asks, can get a
hd
serial number by querying the hard-drive directly...

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"Bill in Co" wrote in message
m...
Some FYI here, and a question or two, on disk cloning:

One thing I found interesting (annoying, actually) was that after
cloning
my main system drive to a brand new one and putting the new one in,
several programs needed to be reactivated. Apparently this is due to
the disk-id's being different for each drive. It appears that several
programs use that disk-id as a basis for copy protection validation, so
if you replace your source drive, be aware. It's a bit annoying. :-)

Acronis True Image (at least my older version, True Home 11), does NOT
clone the disk-id as part of the MBR

Actually, if anyone happens to know of an inexpensive cloning program
that does clone over the disk-id (at least as an option), it would be
good to hear. Perhaps Clonezilla does, or something like that? I
think
the newer and more bloated versions of Acronis can allow for it.

At any rate, I was thinking another way around this would be to extract
the disk-id of the original ID (maybe it's even stored in the registry,
or somewhere in an older image backup) and then use a disk editor to
write that hex value to the MBR in place of the current one, although
this sounds a bit risky. Has anyone ever tried that?

It probably would be simpler to just find some disk cloning program
that
*actually copies the entire MBR minus the partition table but
*including*
the disk-id, and redoing this, if I understand this right.

Otherwise, one is forced to go through the hassle of reactivating the
variouus programs as the incidents show up.



  #15  
Old November 14th 10, 03:10 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
John John - MVP[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,637
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing newreactivation

I think that Bill was asking about the disk signature, with is a
different thing than the Volume ID.

John

On 11/14/2010 12:43 AM, Tim Meddick wrote:
One more time.......

The disk (volume) has it's VolumeID - that IS written into the
partition. However, that is an intrinsic part of the data that
disk-cloning WOULD include in any copies it made.

That makes it NOT the cause of sudden requests by software for
"re-activation"!

No - the only thing that makes any sense is this; that if you try to
start the software from a cloned copy of a disk it will compare the
DiskID (or hard-drive serial number) with one contained in the registry
(which would have been gathered on installation) and found a discrepancy
between it's recorded DiskID and that of the current hard-drive.

The VolumeID (that is written into the bootsector) has got nothing to do
with it.

(That's the number that shows up when you type VOL C: at the prompt)

Otherwise one could not use such utilities as volid.exe to alter the
volume serial number (VolumeID) without Windows wanting re-activation
all the time....

Just changed my SYSTEM drive's VolumeID from 1AD1-ABE1 to 0000-0000 and
guess what? - No problems at all!!

But the hard-drive's serial number is hard-encoded into the firmware
components on the hard-drive itself and can be queried by any software
that want to know it!

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"Bill in Co" wrote in message
m...
Everybody except me. :-) But even if I could get it, I'd have to use a
hex editor and write its exact value back into the source drives MBR
to negate this one issue - a bit risky, at that. :-)

What I found interesting was that only a few programs apparently make
use of that for copy protection and activation purposes. I can see the
advantage of doing so from the software manufacturer's viewpoint,
however. But for the user it can be a bit of a nuisance, and nasty if
the company goes out of business (then your software that checked that
disk identification ID becomes effectively useless)

Tim Meddick wrote:
Whether or not what you call the disk id (serial number) is
reproduced in
the boot sector or not, the system, or any program that asks, can get
a hd
serial number by querying the hard-drive directly...

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"Bill in Co" wrote in message
m...
Some FYI here, and a question or two, on disk cloning:

One thing I found interesting (annoying, actually) was that after
cloning
my main system drive to a brand new one and putting the new one in,
several programs needed to be reactivated. Apparently this is due to
the disk-id's being different for each drive. It appears that several
programs use that disk-id as a basis for copy protection validation, so
if you replace your source drive, be aware. It's a bit annoying. :-)

Acronis True Image (at least my older version, True Home 11), does NOT
clone the disk-id as part of the MBR

Actually, if anyone happens to know of an inexpensive cloning program
that does clone over the disk-id (at least as an option), it would be
good to hear. Perhaps Clonezilla does, or something like that? I think
the newer and more bloated versions of Acronis can allow for it.

At any rate, I was thinking another way around this would be to extract
the disk-id of the original ID (maybe it's even stored in the registry,
or somewhere in an older image backup) and then use a disk editor to
write that hex value to the MBR in place of the current one, although
this sounds a bit risky. Has anyone ever tried that?

It probably would be simpler to just find some disk cloning program
that
*actually copies the entire MBR minus the partition table but
*including*
the disk-id, and redoing this, if I understand this right.

Otherwise, one is forced to go through the hassle of reactivating the
variouus programs as the incidents show up.





 




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