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  #61  
Old February 18th 19, 08:32 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,449
Default The internet is no longer any fun

On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 14:15:24 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article ,
lonelydad wrote:

Some analog telephone adapters for Internet telephony require analog
telephones with low REN, for example, the AT&T 210 is a basic phone which
does not require an external electrical connection and has a REN of 0.9B.


atas need to generate a 90v ring voltage from a (usually) 12v power
supply, so it's no surprise it has more stringent requirements, plus
only one phone is connected to a port.


You can also plug the ATA into a wall jack, thus "lighting up" your
entire house wiring and potentially multiple phones. Naturally, you'd
disconnect your phone wiring at the demarc.

Ads
  #62  
Old February 18th 19, 08:38 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
lonelydad
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 90
Default The internet is no longer any fun

Mark Lloyd wrote in news
On 2/17/19 9:56 PM, nospam wrote:

[snip]

there was once a time when you couldn't do that in your own home. the
phone company only allowed their phones, even with rj11 jacks, and

they
could tell if there were additional extensions you weren't paying for,
which is why many phones were designed to not be detectable


IIRC, the phone company could detect them by the additional ringer

load.
A phone would not be detectable if the ringer was disconnected. This
would often be done if you had too many extensions (you don't need them
all ringing anyway).

When I was young, I spend a lot of time looking at the Radio Shack
catalog, and remember those 4-prong plugs. I never saw them in use.

What
I did see a lot of looked like a 1/4-inch headphone jack. However,

there
was no jack but for some reason the installer had used a cover plate
with a hole in it instead of a blank plate.


That just allowed the phone company to make it more difficult to attach
aditional phones, or add additional of the four prong jacks. Most people
would be intimidated about opening up the box to get at the junction so
they could add the wiring for additional jacks. Most of the time, there
wasn't even a box behind the plate, just a collar on the wire so it
couldn't be easily pulled from the plate. People in the know just went to
the demarc and connected extra lines there.

The 1/4 appearing headphone jack is where the nomenclature of 'tip and
ring' for the two connections on jacks and plugs came from. In the days
of manual switchboards, patch cables were used to connect the two
subscriber phones together. 'Tip' obviously refered to the end contact,
while 'ring' was the other contact. When these jacks and plugs were
modified to handle stereo signals, the ring contact remained the other
end of the plug from the tip, and a third contact was added between the
two. This allowed mono headseats to still be connected to a stereo jack,
since the ring contact was always right next to the interior end of the
plug. Now with the advent of microphones with the headset, a fourth
contact is also added. The equivalent contacts inside the jack are spaced
so that there is compatabilty between mono, stereo, and stereo with mike.
  #63  
Old February 18th 19, 08:42 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
lonelydad
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 90
Default The internet is no longer any fun

nospam wrote in
:

In article , Mark Lloyd
wrote:

there was once a time when you couldn't do that in your own home.
the phone company only allowed their phones, even with rj11 jacks,
and they could tell if there were additional extensions you weren't
paying for, which is why many phones were designed to not be
detectable


IIRC, the phone company could detect them by the additional ringer
load. A phone would not be detectable if the ringer was disconnected.
This would often be done if you had too many extensions (you don't
need them all ringing anyway).


they could, but they generally didn't care unless it was *much*
higher.

an extra phone is no big deal, but ten additional phones would likely
be.

the phone company also used to charge for touchtone, but what they
didn't tell you is that nothing changed at their end, other than an
additional fee.

all the customer needed to do was connect a touchtone phone and it
worked perfectly fine. the only exception was with step switches,
which were too old to handle touchtone and didn't offer it as an
option.


Back in the day, we (wife and I) were too cheap to pay the additional fee
for touch tone. I just went to Radio Shack and bought one of those
touchtone pads that one held up against the mouthpiece. That worked for
several years until the phone company was doing some kind of upgrade or
survey, and found that I was doing that. So they just went ahead and
added the additional fee whether I liked it or not.
  #64  
Old February 18th 19, 10:34 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Dan Purgert
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 281
Default The internet is no longer any fun

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Rene Lamontagne wrote:
...
I don't remember what the Phone generator ring voltage was but the audio
circuit in each phone was powered by 2 #6 cells for a total of 3.2
volts, The whole system was very reliable and never gave much trouble.


If its anything like it was in the US (or, well, at least according to
granddad's Western Electric book that I don't know who got ...), then it
was most likely 36 or 48 volts, AC.

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|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281
  #65  
Old February 18th 19, 11:00 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Rene Lamontagne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,549
Default The internet is no longer any fun

On 02/18/2019 3:34 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Rene Lamontagne wrote:
...
I don't remember what the Phone generator ring voltage was but the audio
circuit in each phone was powered by 2 #6 cells for a total of 3.2
volts, The whole system was very reliable and never gave much trouble.


If its anything like it was in the US (or, well, at least according to
granddad's Western Electric book that I don't know who got ...), then it
was most likely 36 or 48 volts, AC.

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Hi Dan, I believe your right, the common POTS system was mostly 48
volts Even here in Winnipeg where I worked 1n the 80s and 90s our
standby battery was a bank of 24 glass cells at 2 volts each making up
the 48 volt bank.

Rene
s
  #66  
Old February 19th 19, 02:18 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,718
Default The internet is no longer any fun

In article , Paul
wrote:

And that's why you're not supposed to hold onto Tip and Ring.
As if the -48VDC isn't enough of a warning. You will do the
ChaChaCha if the 20Hz gets you.


holding tip and ring at -48v doesn't hurt at all, but it does sting a
little when it rings. been there, done that.

Having held onto the Edmund
Scientific hand-cranked generator (the one with the horseshoe
magnets which makes 90V when you really crank it), you can
actually shock about 20 people in series with that amount
of voltage.


that is not the same as a phone line.

I imagine one person holding onto such a thing
would be quite unpleasant for that person. That's probably
why the ringing pattern alternates on and off, so the idiot
holding Tip and Ring, can let go :-)


no, that's not why.

The DAA in telephone equipment has to withstand quite an
ugly set of voltages to be compliant. It has to accept high
voltage power lines falling against telephone lines. Without
passing that to the user. So the 90V thing, isn't the end of
spec-dom when you need to connect to a phone line. Obviously,
telephone equipment doesn't survive a direct lighting hit.
A carbon block or a gas tube will just explode, rather than
protect you. But for lesser insults, the connection to the
line has to be able to handle a lot more voltage than 90V.


no it doesn't. if the voltage is too high, it will damage or destroy
the phone or other equipment.

It's the same with automotive electronics. You may think
that the 12.6V battery means the operational requirements
are 12.6V, but on a load dump, the DC rails can rise as
high as 70V for short intervals.


no they very definitely can't.

vehicles are nominally 13.8v when the engine is running. it might spike
a *little* higher but definitely nowhere near 70v.

automotive battery chargers charge at around 14-15v, sometimes with a
reconditioning cycle around 16-18v. in some cases, the battery should
be disconnected because of potential damage to the vehicle's
electronics.

And if your car stereo manufacturer
doesn't want a lot of warranty returns, the equipment has to
"eat" that. A car electrical system isn't really "tightly
regulated". It's a bad joke of an electrical system.


it's not 'tightly regulated' but it works quite well for what it is.
  #67  
Old February 19th 19, 02:23 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Dan Purgert
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 281
Default The internet is no longer any fun

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Paul wrote:
Dan Purgert wrote:
Rene Lamontagne wrote:
...
I don't remember what the Phone generator ring voltage was but the audio
circuit in each phone was powered by 2 #6 cells for a total of 3.2
volts, The whole system was very reliable and never gave much trouble.


If its anything like it was in the US (or, well, at least according to
granddad's Western Electric book that I don't know who got ...), then it
was most likely 36 or 48 volts, AC.


The battery room in NA is -48VDC (-56V nominal).
The battery room in Brazil is -80VDC. The Ringing Generator
is higher than both those values and is AC. There are at least
20 different "country specs" for telephone voltages (the telephone
switch needing to be programmed for the country it is in).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringing_%28telephony%29

"These avoid the need to generate 20Hz 90V sinusoidal AC..."


Indeed I was only thinking of the -48v nominal / standby voltage, rather
than the 90VAC ring voltage. Been a long time since I've had to do POTS
work. Kinda miss it (well, not the miles of white-orange / orange
pairs).


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--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281
  #68  
Old February 19th 19, 06:32 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
lonelydad
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 90
Default The internet is no longer any fun

Dan Purgert wrote in :


Indeed I was only thinking of the -48v nominal / standby voltage,
rather than the 90VAC ring voltage. Been a long time since I've had
to do POTS work. Kinda miss it (well, not the miles of white-orange /
orange pairs).

Then you will probably appreciate this story. I attended a smaller
college in rural Nebraska in the 70s. I spent one summer working for the
Maintenence department doing a little of everything. That included
digging a trench between the Maintenence building that contained the
power access point for that portion of campus (transformers, meters,
etc.) and another classroom building about sixty feet away, so that new
conduit could be put down for the wiring upgrade in that building. We
were digging that trench by hand because of all the other conduit and
cables buried crossing that area. One thing we ran into was a concrete
beam crossing the trench path. When we asked what that was for this is
the answer we got. It seems that the phone company in town also served a
good portion of the surrounding countryside. As such, a rather large
aerial trunk cable came up to the downtown side of campus, then went
underground. On the far side of campus it re-emerged and turned back into
an aerial cable as it served all the customers in that directin from
town. Further info was that there used to be a couple of campus buildings
in the area that were no longer there. When the guys were digging a
trench for some of the wiring we were avoiding, they ran across this
steel conduit running across their trench. When they checked with the
Maintenence manager, he told them that it was probably power lines that
used to go to the now nonexistent buldings, and to get the SawzAll out.
You guessed it. The guy who had been doing the sawing told me that he had
cut through the conduit on one side, and started on the other. He said
there were these funny little pieces of copper falling out of the cut.
About the time he finished the cut and the center chunk fell down, the
maintenence boss came by and said all the phones had stopped working.
When they looked at the end of the conduit they saw a whole lot of ends
of phone wires. Now this was about a three or four inch conduit, so a lot
of wires. I don't know if they were color coded or the old plain paper
wrap, but either way it took a while to get all the wires spliced. After
that had occured they dug out the conduit for about ten feet in each
direction from the trench, and buried it in concrete. Isn't life fun some
times! I can just imagine what the phone guys said when they called this
in. "You did what! Oh my G*d!"
  #69  
Old February 19th 19, 04:01 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Dan Purgert
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 281
Default The internet is no longer any fun

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

lonelydad wrote:
Dan Purgert wrote in :


Indeed I was only thinking of the -48v nominal / standby voltage,
rather than the 90VAC ring voltage. Been a long time since I've had
to do POTS work. Kinda miss it (well, not the miles of white-orange /
orange pairs).

Then you will probably appreciate this story. [...]


Ouch. That just makes my brain hurt.

If that was laid after the 1950s (IIRC), at least they'd have the
benefit of the "modern" binder groups / color coding scheme (although, I
imagine there was SOMETHING in place before then as well).

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--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281
  #70  
Old February 19th 19, 06:34 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mark Lloyd[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,756
Default The internet is no longer any fun

On 2/18/19 12:15 PM, nospam wrote:

[snip]

the phone company also used to charge for touchtone, but what they
didn't tell you is that nothing changed at their end, other than an
additional fee.


I remember when I first got one in 1982. There was a 50-cent charge on
the bill for tone service.

all the customer needed to do was connect a touchtone phone and it
worked perfectly fine. the only exception was with step switches, which
were too old to handle touchtone and didn't offer it as an option.


In 1988 I moved to a different area. The phone system still had an old
step stitch, with a translator to allow tone dialing. On my phone, you
could push the buttons for 7-0212 for time and temperature (yes, local
calls just needed 5 digits then), and then wait for the
click-click-click-click-click-click-click
click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click click-click
click click-click.

BTW, the 5-digit dialing went away in a couple of years when they went
to electronic switching. Now, it's 10-digits for a local call (overlay
area code).

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"War to the death against depravity--depravity is Christianity."
[Nietzsche]
  #71  
Old February 19th 19, 06:37 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mark Lloyd[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,756
Default The internet is no longer any fun

On 2/18/19 1:58 PM, nospam wrote:

[snip]

another was flip the polarity of the line, but that's easily fixed.


IIRC, modern phones work just as well with either polarity. Maybe that's
why they're like that.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"War to the death against depravity--depravity is Christianity."
[Nietzsche]
  #72  
Old February 19th 19, 06:39 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,718
Default The internet is no longer any fun

In article , Mark Lloyd
wrote:

the phone company also used to charge for touchtone, but what they
didn't tell you is that nothing changed at their end, other than an
additional fee.


I remember when I first got one in 1982. There was a 50-cent charge on
the bill for tone service.


i recall it being higher where i was.

all the customer needed to do was connect a touchtone phone and it
worked perfectly fine. the only exception was with step switches, which
were too old to handle touchtone and didn't offer it as an option.


In 1988 I moved to a different area. The phone system still had an old
step stitch, with a translator to allow tone dialing.


yikes. step was fun in its day, but obsolete long before 1988. it did
take a while to replace all of them, however.

for crossbar, touchtone 'just worked'.

On my phone, you
could push the buttons for 7-0212 for time and temperature (yes, local
calls just needed 5 digits then), and then wait for the
click-click-click-click-click-click-click
click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click click-click
click click-click.


crossbar didn't need to translate, although one advantage of step was
the 5 digit dialing.

BTW, the 5-digit dialing went away in a couple of years when they went
to electronic switching. Now, it's 10-digits for a local call (overlay
area code).


10 digit dialing is exactly as it should be.

at least you don't have the braindead requirement of a 1 prefix.
  #73  
Old February 19th 19, 06:39 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,718
Default The internet is no longer any fun

In article , Mark Lloyd
wrote:


another was flip the polarity of the line, but that's easily fixed.


IIRC, modern phones work just as well with either polarity. Maybe that's
why they're like that.


modern ones do, but the 500s didn't, which is what people had back then.
  #74  
Old February 19th 19, 06:53 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mark Lloyd[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,756
Default The internet is no longer any fun

On 2/18/19 4:00 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:

[snip]

Â*Hi Dan, I believe your right, the common POTS system was mostly 48
volts Even here in Winnipeg where I worked 1n the 80s and 90s our
standby battery was a bank of 24 glass cells at 2 volts each making up
the 48 volt bank.

Rene
s


I remember seeing those batteries at a major telephone exchange (Ft.
Worth TX). Many of them came from old submarines.

They also mentioned the computer that's used for directory assistance,
but wouldn't let people in there. Apparently, the computer was very
sensitive to heat.

BTW, They would have more operators working on a day when there was
wintry weather or a major football game. More people were using the
phone then.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"War to the death against depravity--depravity is Christianity."
[Nietzsche]
  #75  
Old February 19th 19, 07:40 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mark Lloyd[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,756
Default The internet is no longer any fun

On 2/18/19 1:38 PM, lonelydad wrote:

[snip]

That just allowed the phone company to make it more difficult to attach
aditional phones, or add additional of the four prong jacks. Most people
would be intimidated about opening up the box to get at the junction so
they could add the wiring for additional jacks. Most of the time, there
wasn't even a box behind the plate, just a collar on the wire so it
couldn't be easily pulled from the plate. People in the know just went to
the demarc and connected extra lines there.


This house, built in 1969 had a hardwired wall phone in the kitchen, and
wiring to the bedrooms. I remember someone saying you could have a phone
you carry around and plug in in any bedroom, although we didn't.

The 1/4 appearing headphone jack is where the nomenclature of 'tip and
ring' for the two connections on jacks and plugs came from. In the days
of manual switchboards, patch cables were used to connect the two
subscriber phones together. 'Tip' obviously refered to the end contact,
while 'ring' was the other contact. When these jacks and plugs were
modified to handle stereo signals, the ring contact remained the other
end of the plug from the tip, and a third contact was added between the
two. This allowed mono headseats to still be connected to a stereo jack,
since the ring contact was always right next to the interior end of the
plug. Now with the advent of microphones with the headset, a fourth
contact is also added. The equivalent contacts inside the jack are spaced
so that there is compatabilty between mono, stereo, and stereo with mike.


I've heard of, but not seen a newer one that has five contacts.

I know about 1/4-inch jacks/plugs. What I found here had neither, just a
wall plate with a HOLE in it (about the right size for such a plug).
There was nothing in there but wires.

The wires in this were six-conductor, colored like wire used for
ethernet except no brown pair. I checked for dialtone using the speaker
from a pocket radio, and IIRC found it on the blue pair.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"War to the death against depravity--depravity is Christianity."
[Nietzsche]
 




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