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  #91  
Old May 25th 15, 07:29 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,449
Default Data Microsoft collects

On Mon, 25 May 2015 00:13:08 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

On 5/24/15 2:03 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 2015 09:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

When I wrote the comment, I was thinking of a situation where a group of
people are collaborating on a project, and need to create a report,
plan, drawings, something as a group, not as individuals.

Only one person should have control of the document creation. You
preferably or someone writes the original. Create a PDF from the
original, and send it to the other members individually. They should be
instructed to use the annotation feature to send feedback of what they
would like to see changed. *NO* editing of the original text. That
leaves you with the original text to compare with the changes that
individual wants.


You realize, of course, that when you send a document to someone to solicit
their input, you're generally sending a "copy". Most people wouldn't work on
a document, send a copy to a colleague, delete their local copy, and then
hope for the best. ;-)


G Yep. What would usually happen for me was someone would delete the
original text and simply insert their text, leaving me with nothing to
compare.


You always have the original document, so you can use that for comparisons
if someone forgets to use Track Changes. I'm not sure when Word gained the
Compare feature. I didn't use that feature often, so to me it seems like
it's always been there.

Ads
  #92  
Old May 25th 15, 04:46 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Ken Springer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,817
Default Data Microsoft collects

On 5/25/15 12:29 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 25 May 2015 00:13:08 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

On 5/24/15 2:03 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 2015 09:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

When I wrote the comment, I was thinking of a situation where a group of
people are collaborating on a project, and need to create a report,
plan, drawings, something as a group, not as individuals.

Only one person should have control of the document creation. You
preferably or someone writes the original. Create a PDF from the
original, and send it to the other members individually. They should be
instructed to use the annotation feature to send feedback of what they
would like to see changed. *NO* editing of the original text. That
leaves you with the original text to compare with the changes that
individual wants.

You realize, of course, that when you send a document to someone to solicit
their input, you're generally sending a "copy". Most people wouldn't work on
a document, send a copy to a colleague, delete their local copy, and then
hope for the best. ;-)


G Yep. What would usually happen for me was someone would delete the
original text and simply insert their text, leaving me with nothing to
compare.


You always have the original document, so you can use that for comparisons
if someone forgets to use Track Changes. I'm not sure when Word gained the
Compare feature. I didn't use that feature often, so to me it seems like
it's always been there.


I don't know when it got the compare feature, but that's not what I
meant. :-) Don't you just love the English language? LOL

By compare, I meant doing it manually, reading the original first, the
suggested change(s) second. If I have two .doc files, I have to have
both of them open in separate windows, AFAIK. But if it's an annotated
PDF, the original and suggested phrases are displayed in a single document.


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 36.0.4
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #93  
Old May 25th 15, 07:21 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Ken Springer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,817
Default Data Microsoft collects

On 5/25/15 12:25 PM, Neil Gould wrote:
Ken Springer wrote:
On 5/25/15 12:29 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 25 May 2015 00:13:08 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

On 5/24/15 2:03 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 2015 09:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

When I wrote the comment, I was thinking of a situation where a
group of people are collaborating on a project, and need to
create a report, plan, drawings, something as a group, not as
individuals.

Only one person should have control of the document creation. You
preferably or someone writes the original. Create a PDF from the
original, and send it to the other members individually. They
should be instructed to use the annotation feature to send
feedback of what they would like to see changed. *NO* editing of
the original text. That leaves you with the original text to
compare with the changes that individual wants.

You realize, of course, that when you send a document to someone
to solicit their input, you're generally sending a "copy". Most
people wouldn't work on a document, send a copy to a colleague,
delete their local copy, and then hope for the best. ;-)

G Yep. What would usually happen for me was someone would
delete the original text and simply insert their text, leaving me
with nothing to compare.

You always have the original document, so you can use that for
comparisons if someone forgets to use Track Changes. I'm not sure
when Word gained the Compare feature. I didn't use that feature
often, so to me it seems like it's always been there.


I don't know when it got the compare feature, but that's not what I
meant. :-) Don't you just love the English language? LOL

By compare, I meant doing it manually, reading the original first, the
suggested change(s) second. If I have two .doc files, I have to have
both of them open in separate windows, AFAIK. But if it's an
annotated PDF, the original and suggested phrases are displayed in a
single document.

There are programs designed for collaborative authoring that automate the
process and make it very easy to track revisions and versions. FrameMaker is
one that has had that ability since at least version 3, which was before
Adobe bought Frame, Inc. decades ago. Using Word, PDFs and so on for version
tracking is just another way to make life difficult. ;-)


I don't doubt there are programs for that. The question is, is the
program of enough value to you to justify the purchase?

Beside buying it, you have to factor in the following:

- Training of the employees to use and understand it
- Training of management to use and understand it
- Training of sub-contractors and their employees to use it
- Willingness of everyone to use it


There's probably some other things I haven't thought about.

There's going to be a level below which the business is not going to
find the expenditures related to the above list financially advisable.
Maybe they only do this 3 or 4 times a year, and on smaller projects.

The trick is always to find the best way to use the tools you already
have, and arguably, the tools everyone already has.

The negative of your method is all users have to have the same software,
and absorb the same expense. With my way, users can select whatever
software they wish, and only have to be able to create a basic PDF file,
which can be done with a free printer driver in Windows, or natively in
OS X.

My way is possibly easier to accomplish and mix OSes also. G

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 36.0.4
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #94  
Old May 25th 15, 07:25 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Neil Gould[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 167
Default Data Microsoft collects

Ken Springer wrote:
On 5/25/15 12:29 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 25 May 2015 00:13:08 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

On 5/24/15 2:03 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 2015 09:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

When I wrote the comment, I was thinking of a situation where a
group of people are collaborating on a project, and need to
create a report, plan, drawings, something as a group, not as
individuals.

Only one person should have control of the document creation. You
preferably or someone writes the original. Create a PDF from the
original, and send it to the other members individually. They
should be instructed to use the annotation feature to send
feedback of what they would like to see changed. *NO* editing of
the original text. That leaves you with the original text to
compare with the changes that individual wants.

You realize, of course, that when you send a document to someone
to solicit their input, you're generally sending a "copy". Most
people wouldn't work on a document, send a copy to a colleague,
delete their local copy, and then hope for the best. ;-)

G Yep. What would usually happen for me was someone would
delete the original text and simply insert their text, leaving me
with nothing to compare.


You always have the original document, so you can use that for
comparisons if someone forgets to use Track Changes. I'm not sure
when Word gained the Compare feature. I didn't use that feature
often, so to me it seems like it's always been there.


I don't know when it got the compare feature, but that's not what I
meant. :-) Don't you just love the English language? LOL

By compare, I meant doing it manually, reading the original first, the
suggested change(s) second. If I have two .doc files, I have to have
both of them open in separate windows, AFAIK. But if it's an
annotated PDF, the original and suggested phrases are displayed in a
single document.

There are programs designed for collaborative authoring that automate the
process and make it very easy to track revisions and versions. FrameMaker is
one that has had that ability since at least version 3, which was before
Adobe bought Frame, Inc. decades ago. Using Word, PDFs and so on for version
tracking is just another way to make life difficult. ;-)

--
best regards,

Neil



  #95  
Old May 26th 15, 06:20 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,449
Default Data Microsoft collects

On Mon, 25 May 2015 09:46:06 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

On 5/25/15 12:29 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 25 May 2015 00:13:08 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

On 5/24/15 2:03 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 2015 09:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

When I wrote the comment, I was thinking of a situation where a group of
people are collaborating on a project, and need to create a report,
plan, drawings, something as a group, not as individuals.

Only one person should have control of the document creation. You
preferably or someone writes the original. Create a PDF from the
original, and send it to the other members individually. They should be
instructed to use the annotation feature to send feedback of what they
would like to see changed. *NO* editing of the original text. That
leaves you with the original text to compare with the changes that
individual wants.

You realize, of course, that when you send a document to someone to solicit
their input, you're generally sending a "copy". Most people wouldn't work on
a document, send a copy to a colleague, delete their local copy, and then
hope for the best. ;-)

G Yep. What would usually happen for me was someone would delete the
original text and simply insert their text, leaving me with nothing to
compare.


You always have the original document, so you can use that for comparisons
if someone forgets to use Track Changes. I'm not sure when Word gained the
Compare feature. I didn't use that feature often, so to me it seems like
it's always been there.


I don't know when it got the compare feature, but that's not what I
meant. :-) Don't you just love the English language? LOL

By compare, I meant doing it manually, reading the original first, the
suggested change(s) second. If I have two .doc files, I have to have
both of them open in separate windows, AFAIK. But if it's an annotated
PDF, the original and suggested phrases are displayed in a single document.


Yes, but why would you want to compare two Word documents manually? Let
computers do what they do best. Let the computer do the comparing, (via the
Word application, in this case).

  #96  
Old May 26th 15, 07:28 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Ken Springer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,817
Default Data Microsoft collects

On 5/25/15 11:20 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 25 May 2015 09:46:06 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

On 5/25/15 12:29 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 25 May 2015 00:13:08 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

On 5/24/15 2:03 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 2015 09:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

When I wrote the comment, I was thinking of a situation where a group of
people are collaborating on a project, and need to create a report,
plan, drawings, something as a group, not as individuals.

Only one person should have control of the document creation. You
preferably or someone writes the original. Create a PDF from the
original, and send it to the other members individually. They should be
instructed to use the annotation feature to send feedback of what they
would like to see changed. *NO* editing of the original text. That
leaves you with the original text to compare with the changes that
individual wants.

You realize, of course, that when you send a document to someone to solicit
their input, you're generally sending a "copy". Most people wouldn't work on
a document, send a copy to a colleague, delete their local copy, and then
hope for the best. ;-)

G Yep. What would usually happen for me was someone would delete the
original text and simply insert their text, leaving me with nothing to
compare.

You always have the original document, so you can use that for comparisons
if someone forgets to use Track Changes. I'm not sure when Word gained the
Compare feature. I didn't use that feature often, so to me it seems like
it's always been there.


I don't know when it got the compare feature, but that's not what I
meant. :-) Don't you just love the English language? LOL

By compare, I meant doing it manually, reading the original first, the
suggested change(s) second. If I have two .doc files, I have to have
both of them open in separate windows, AFAIK. But if it's an annotated
PDF, the original and suggested phrases are displayed in a single document.


Yes, but why would you want to compare two Word documents manually? Let
computers do what they do best. Let the computer do the comparing, (via the
Word application, in this case).


You're assuming everyone is using Word. I'm not. :-) I'm not even
assuming the same OS.


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 36.0.4
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #97  
Old May 26th 15, 12:31 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Neil Gould[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 167
Default Data Microsoft collects

Ken Springer wrote:
On 5/25/15 12:25 PM, Neil Gould wrote:
Ken Springer wrote:
By compare, I meant doing it manually, reading the original first,
the suggested change(s) second. If I have two .doc files, I have
to have both of them open in separate windows, AFAIK. But if it's
an annotated PDF, the original and suggested phrases are displayed
in a single document.

There are programs designed for collaborative authoring that
automate the process and make it very easy to track revisions and
versions. FrameMaker is one that has had that ability since at least
version 3, which was before Adobe bought Frame, Inc. decades ago.
Using Word, PDFs and so on for version tracking is just another way
to make life difficult. ;-)


I don't doubt there are programs for that. The question is, is the
program of enough value to you to justify the purchase?

The short answer is, it depends. The cost of the software is fairly
irrelevant compared to the inefficiency of "hacked" methods. But, if the
document is small, not all that important, and/or has little impact on the
company, then it would be hard to justify any investment. OTOH, if the
collaborators are spread across the world and are creating documents of
value to the company, it's a no-brainer to require the use of such software,
as many companies do.

The negative of your method is all users have to have the same
software, and absorb the same expense. With my way, users can select
whatever software they wish, and only have to be able to create a
basic PDF file, which can be done with a free printer driver in
Windows, or natively in OS X.

One hasn't had to have a printer driver for PDFs since DOS days, and then it
had to be a PostScript printer. There are many PDF writing apps available
that don't depend on an installed printer at all. Several of them are free.

--
best regards,

Neil


  #98  
Old May 26th 15, 02:23 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Ken Springer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,817
Default Data Microsoft collects

On 5/26/15 5:31 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Ken Springer wrote:
On 5/25/15 12:25 PM, Neil Gould wrote:
Ken Springer wrote:
By compare, I meant doing it manually, reading the original first,
the suggested change(s) second. If I have two .doc files, I have
to have both of them open in separate windows, AFAIK. But if it's
an annotated PDF, the original and suggested phrases are displayed
in a single document.

There are programs designed for collaborative authoring that
automate the process and make it very easy to track revisions and
versions. FrameMaker is one that has had that ability since at least
version 3, which was before Adobe bought Frame, Inc. decades ago.
Using Word, PDFs and so on for version tracking is just another way
to make life difficult. ;-)


I don't doubt there are programs for that. The question is, is the
program of enough value to you to justify the purchase?

The short answer is, it depends. The cost of the software is fairly
irrelevant compared to the inefficiency of "hacked" methods. But, if the
document is small, not all that important, and/or has little impact on the
company, then it would be hard to justify any investment. OTOH, if the
collaborators are spread across the world and are creating documents of
value to the company, it's a no-brainer to require the use of such software,
as many companies do.


I think you've concisely hit the core difference of our viewpoints. :-)

We're viewing the issue of being able to put together "something" among
a group of people/businesses from different perspectives/needs.

You and Char are looking at it as how a large enterprise would do it,
say General Motors building a concept car using its worldwide resources.

I'm looking at it as a small local contractor who wants to bid a small
project, but doesn't have the in house skills needed, so needs to work
with other contractors in the area with equally limited resources. And
for the one or two yearly projects, can't justify the time and expense
of doing it the same as GM. Shoot, one of the may actually hate using
computers. LOL

I'm also considering this could even be planning the annual family
reunion. (I keep getting asked to go to those things, fortunately I
manage to avoid them for valid reasons. LOL)

The negative of your method is all users have to have the same
software, and absorb the same expense. With my way, users can select
whatever software they wish, and only have to be able to create a
basic PDF file, which can be done with a free printer driver in
Windows, or natively in OS X.

One hasn't had to have a printer driver for PDFs since DOS days, and then it
had to be a PostScript printer. There are many PDF writing apps available
that don't depend on an installed printer at all. Several of them are free.


By PDF writing apps, I assume you mean Adobe Acrobat type software,
albeit free? I've never looked for any of those, the PDF creation items
I've needed personally just don't justify the time and effort,
especially when an alternative PDF reader often installs a PDF printer
driver.

For me and my needs, the shortest path to a PDF file is a printer
driver. G



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 36.0.4
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #99  
Old May 26th 15, 06:07 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Ken Springer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,817
Default Data Microsoft collects

On 5/26/15 11:17 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Ken Springer wrote:
On 5/26/15 5:31 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Ken Springer wrote:

With my way, users can
select whatever software they wish, and only have to be able to
create a basic PDF file, which can be done with a free printer
driver in Windows, or natively in OS X.

One hasn't had to have a printer driver for PDFs since DOS days, and
then it had to be a PostScript printer. There are many PDF writing
apps available that don't depend on an installed printer at all.
Several of them are free.


By PDF writing apps, I assume you mean Adobe Acrobat type software,
albeit free? I've never looked for any of those, the PDF creation
items I've needed personally just don't justify the time and effort,
especially when an alternative PDF reader often installs a PDF printer
driver.

For me and my needs, the shortest path to a PDF file is a printer
driver. G

We may be talking about the same thing. There are apps that can create PDFs
from most apps and install the option to select them as a "printer driver",
but there is usually not an associated printer that could be driven by its
output, ergo, it's not really a printer driver.


We may be. In my case, when I open the Print dialogue, in addition to
the various printers that may be there, there is a PDF printer listed.
Select that, and a PDF file is written to the hard drive. As usual,
different drivers here have different PDF creation settings.

Unlike my understanding of "apps that can create PDFs from most apps",
this way I can create a PDF from any app. OS X, at least starting with
10.5 Leopard, offers this natively in it's Print dialogue.

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 36.0.4
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #100  
Old May 26th 15, 06:17 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Neil Gould[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 167
Default Data Microsoft collects

Ken Springer wrote:
On 5/26/15 5:31 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Ken Springer wrote:

With my way, users can
select whatever software they wish, and only have to be able to
create a basic PDF file, which can be done with a free printer
driver in Windows, or natively in OS X.

One hasn't had to have a printer driver for PDFs since DOS days, and
then it had to be a PostScript printer. There are many PDF writing
apps available that don't depend on an installed printer at all.
Several of them are free.


By PDF writing apps, I assume you mean Adobe Acrobat type software,
albeit free? I've never looked for any of those, the PDF creation
items I've needed personally just don't justify the time and effort,
especially when an alternative PDF reader often installs a PDF printer
driver.

For me and my needs, the shortest path to a PDF file is a printer
driver. G

We may be talking about the same thing. There are apps that can create PDFs
from most apps and install the option to select them as a "printer driver",
but there is usually not an associated printer that could be driven by its
output, ergo, it's not really a printer driver.
--
best regards,

Neil


  #101  
Old June 8th 15, 02:51 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Good Guy[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,354
Default Data Microsoft collects

On 23/05/2015 02:17, Keith Nuttle wrote:

snipped


Microsoft is changing its Service Agreements effective 01st August, 2015.

http://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/servicesagreement#serviceslist

quote
As part of our effort to improve your experience across our consumer
services, we’re updating the Microsoft Services Agreement and the
Microsoft Privacy Statement. We want to take this opportunity to notify
you about these updates.
/quote

 




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