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#31
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OT.... but I need help
On 02/11/2012 19:56, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Fri, 2 Nov 2012 07:29:38 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: In message , Gene E. Bloch writes: On Thu, 01 Nov 2012 19:59:41 -0400, charlie wrote: These days, the power companies don't necessarily do what they used to do to keep synchronous motor driven clocks on or close to the correct time. I have in the last couple of years tried to buy a synchronous motor clock, without success. IIRC, I wanted to run such a clock on the output of a 12 VDC to 120 VAC inverter to see how accurate the frequency was. [] If that's all you want it for, the cheapest type of digital alarm clocks - the sort with four LED digits, and a beep alarm and sometimes a radio - still tend to count mains (line) cycles. Probably impossible to tell before purchase, though. I'd have thought they'd have switched to quartz like everyone else by now, but presumably the circuit design (it's basically one chip, for the clock parts anyway) stabilised some decades ago, and there's been no reason to alter it. Interesting. I had thought they all used xtals these days (or even RC networks - what else could explain the lousy timekeeping of a couple I've seen?). Thanks. We have bought an alarm. It obviously worked on a xtal base. Each day it lagged 1 minute. So we changed it for another one. That one lagged less, 5 minutes per week. What does it say about using a xtall? Forget it. It's all cheap Chinese ****. Fokke |
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#32
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OT.... but I need help
On 02/11/2012 20:42, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 18:59:39 +0000, Ed Cryer wrote: Paul wrote: Ed Cryer wrote: Drew wrote: On 11/1/2012 12:04 PM, Ed Cryer wrote: In our local sports centre swimming pool there's a clock on the wall. It keeps good time. I've relied on it for years to time myself. However, every day at 4-00pm exactly it goes into overdrive, and sweeps round covering many hours in a few seconds. Then it resets at just after 4-00pm, and continues normally. I've pointed it out to many fellow swimmers; and they stare in amazement, raised eyebrows and a dim expression over the facial features and say they don't know. The other day I finally gave in and asked at Reception what it was all about. She told me that that was the only clock in the Centre that did that, that they weren't interconnected and that she didn't know why. My best guess is that it's a radio clock, and it self-adjust every day at 4-00pm. But I've googled for "clock speeds up at 4-00pm" and the like and haven't found the answer. Some one here must have met one of these things. If so then let me know more. Ed Possible atomic clock of some kind? I have a strong suspicion you're right here. Everybody else seems to have gone for radio-control (I did myself as first guess), but look what googling has produced. It looks just like this; http://www.walmart.com/ip/14-Analog-...Pearl/13443480 And then take a look at these hits for images on "Analog Atomic Wall Clock"; there are zillions. http://tinyurl.com/bt95lv3 There must be quite a lot of these things in use around the world. The write-up says; Radio-Controlled Atomic Time Automatically sets to exact time Accurate to the second Automatically updates for daylight saving time (on/off option) 4 time zone settings 14'' Plastic Frame Simple Operation: Insert One AA Alkaline Battery (not included) After signal is received, press Time Zone button to set Four Time Zone Settings Daylight Saving Time Option On/Off Manual Reset Button Ed According to this, that product uses WWVB. http://www.lacrosse-clock.com/lacrosse_technology.htm The signal strength varies through the day. So if it was having a reception problem, you'd wait until the signal reached peak strength, to see if the clock could pick it up. http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/radioclocks.cfm ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB ) Amazing it runs off one AA alkaline cell. So while you don't have to set the time, the battery is still going to need changing. Paul I find that hard to believe, too. My little Acctim digital radio clock needs two AAs. But it also displays date, temp and phase of moon. Mind you, I can't recall having ever changed the batts since I got the thing. Ed Clearly the second battery is for the moon phase :-) Imagine the battery situation if these things had to use vacuum tubes (valves). Well, it would only need 200 batteries to reach the anode voltage. Fokke |
#33
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OT.... but I need help
Fokke Nauta wrote:
On 01/11/2012 23:52, Paul wrote: Fokke Nauta wrote: On 01/11/2012 20:04, Ed Cryer wrote: In our local sports centre swimming pool there's a clock on the wall. It keeps good time. I've relied on it for years to time myself. However, every day at 4-00pm exactly it goes into overdrive, and sweeps round covering many hours in a few seconds. Then it resets at just after 4-00pm, and continues normally. I've pointed it out to many fellow swimmers; and they stare in amazement, raised eyebrows and a dim expression over the facial features and say they don't know. The other day I finally gave in and asked at Reception what it was all about. She told me that that was the only clock in the Centre that did that, that they weren't interconnected and that she didn't know why. My best guess is that it's a radio clock, and it self-adjust every day at 4-00pm. But I've googled for "clock speeds up at 4-00pm" and the like and haven't found the answer. Some one here must have met one of these things. If so then let me know more. Ed Well, we got a radio controlled alarm here. It should be synced by a Frankfurt radio time transmittor. Really state of the art. I would call it state of a fart. Many times it shows a different time. Always a surpise when you look for the time. It varies from minus to plus a few hours. So your clock (radio controlled as well) ain't too bad. Fokke In North America, there is WWV. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWV_(radio_station) There is also GPS, but that's at a higher frequency, and may be harder to receive inside a building. Whatever radio source is uses, the format of signal would have to be simple enough, for a cheap synchronization design. With processors being as cheap as they are now, that wouldn't present a problem today. But might have been an issue when that particular clock was built. This device claims to set itself via radio signal. http://www.amazon.com/Sangean-Americ.../dp/B0010HUAIO "Radio Controlled clock available for DCF/WWVB/MSF/JJY" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSF_time_signal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JJY Interesting collection of frequencies. The low frequencies are in the same range as the ones submarines use. Whereas the WWV thing is shortwave. Paul Hey, our alarm clock listens to DCF77. Wasn't aware of that! Interesting info! Fokke What I missed when I posted that, is WWV is shortwave, while WWVB is the lower frequency. So the DCF/WWVB/MSF/JJY signals are around 100KHz or less. This article, lists a few more transmitters. There are more than those four above. http://www.edn-europe.com/receiveran...48+Europe.html Paul |
#34
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OT.... but I need help
On 02/11/2012 15:29, Justin wrote:
On 11/1/2012 3:04 PM, Ed Cryer wrote: In our local sports centre swimming pool there's a clock on the wall. It keeps good time. I've relied on it for years to time myself. However, every day at 4-00pm exactly it goes into overdrive, and sweeps round covering many hours in a few seconds. Then it resets at just after 4-00pm, and continues normally. I've pointed it out to many fellow swimmers; and they stare in amazement, raised eyebrows and a dim expression over the facial features and say they don't know. The other day I finally gave in and asked at Reception what it was all about. She told me that that was the only clock in the Centre that did that, that they weren't interconnected and that she didn't know why. My best guess is that it's a radio clock, and it self-adjust every day at 4-00pm. But I've googled for "clock speeds up at 4-00pm" and the like and haven't found the answer. Some one here must have met one of these things. If so then let me know more. Ed Your kids are swimming so fast, they're slowing time and sending out "time quakes" that interfere with the clock. Or they are swimming faster (300,000 km/sec) and are ahead of time? Fokke |
#35
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OT.... but I need help
In message , Ed Cryer
writes: Drew wrote: [] Possible atomic clock of some kind? I have a strong suspicion you're right here. Everybody else seems to have gone for radio-control (I did myself as first guess), but look what googling has produced. [] Bad (I'd say bordering on illegal, but it must be only bordering as they've been doing it for ages now) use of advertising copy. These clocks are _not_ atomic; they use radio signals from a reference elsewhere, which _may_ use an atomic clock mechanism for reference. A true atomic clock is very bulky, extremely expensive, and somewhat heavy. What's more, they advertise these clocks (and watches) as "accurate to a second in a million years" (or that sort of thing). Which, of course, they're not: the clock they're _linked_ to _may_ be. Can't see how they get away with such claims, but they obviously do. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf Abandon hope, all ye who ENTER here. |
#36
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OT.... but I need help
In message , Fokke Nauta
writes: On 02/11/2012 20:42, Gene E. Bloch wrote: On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 18:59:39 +0000, Ed Cryer wrote: [] I find that hard to believe, too. My little Acctim digital radio clock needs two AAs. But it also displays date, temp and phase of moon. Mind you, I can't recall having ever changed the batts since I got the thing. Ed My little Auriol has all of those except the moon phase, and contains two AAAs; they're the cheap (zinc-carbon?) kind, are the ones that came with it, and have been in since I got the clock. Clearly the second battery is for the moon phase :-) (-: Imagine the battery situation if these things had to use vacuum tubes (valves). Well, it would only need 200 batteries to reach the anode voltage. Fokke One battery, containing 200 cells ... though single cells do tend to be referred to as "batteries" these days. A car battery, or a PP3 or PP9, is a true battery; AA, AAA, C, D, etc. are cells. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf "He hasn't one redeeming vice." - Oscar Wilde |
#37
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OT.... but I need help
Ed Cryer wrote:
In our local sports centre swimming pool there's a clock on the wall. It keeps good time. I've relied on it for years to time myself. However, every day at 4-00pm exactly it goes into overdrive, and sweeps round covering many hours in a few seconds. Then it resets at just after 4-00pm, and continues normally. I've pointed it out to many fellow swimmers; and they stare in amazement, raised eyebrows and a dim expression over the facial features and say they don't know. The other day I finally gave in and asked at Reception what it was all about. She told me that that was the only clock in the Centre that did that, that they weren't interconnected and that she didn't know why. My best guess is that it's a radio clock, and it self-adjust every day at 4-00pm. But I've googled for "clock speeds up at 4-00pm" and the like and haven't found the answer. Some one here must have met one of these things. If so then let me know more. Ed It's just an "atomic time" clock resetting itself when it gets a half second out of time, it can't go backwards so it spins around until it get to where it's supposed to be. One of mine does the same thing sometimes. No biggie just doing what they are supposed to do. Trains were the main reason to standardize time way way back. An interesting read if you like that kind of thing. http://www.webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/d.html |
#38
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OT.... but I need help
On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 22:19:08 +0100, Fokke Nauta wrote:
On 02/11/2012 19:56, Gene E. Bloch wrote: On Fri, 2 Nov 2012 07:29:38 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: In message , Gene E. Bloch writes: On Thu, 01 Nov 2012 19:59:41 -0400, charlie wrote: These days, the power companies don't necessarily do what they used to do to keep synchronous motor driven clocks on or close to the correct time. I have in the last couple of years tried to buy a synchronous motor clock, without success. IIRC, I wanted to run such a clock on the output of a 12 VDC to 120 VAC inverter to see how accurate the frequency was. [] If that's all you want it for, the cheapest type of digital alarm clocks - the sort with four LED digits, and a beep alarm and sometimes a radio - still tend to count mains (line) cycles. Probably impossible to tell before purchase, though. I'd have thought they'd have switched to quartz like everyone else by now, but presumably the circuit design (it's basically one chip, for the clock parts anyway) stabilised some decades ago, and there's been no reason to alter it. Interesting. I had thought they all used xtals these days (or even RC networks - what else could explain the lousy timekeeping of a couple I've seen?). Thanks. We have bought an alarm. It obviously worked on a xtal base. Each day it lagged 1 minute. So we changed it for another one. That one lagged less, 5 minutes per week. What does it say about using a xtall? Forget it. It's all cheap Chinese ****. Fokke There are crystals and there are crystals. I often see clocks that are accurate to a few seconds a day. We just got a kitchen timer that also has a clock in it; it cost $15US, and is accurate to about 3 seconds a week. So try a different brand :-) -- Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch) |
#39
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OT.... but I need help
On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 22:32:37 +0100, Fokke Nauta wrote:
On 02/11/2012 20:42, Gene E. Bloch wrote: On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 18:59:39 +0000, Ed Cryer wrote: Paul wrote: Ed Cryer wrote: Drew wrote: On 11/1/2012 12:04 PM, Ed Cryer wrote: In our local sports centre swimming pool there's a clock on the wall. It keeps good time. I've relied on it for years to time myself. However, every day at 4-00pm exactly it goes into overdrive, and sweeps round covering many hours in a few seconds. Then it resets at just after 4-00pm, and continues normally. I've pointed it out to many fellow swimmers; and they stare in amazement, raised eyebrows and a dim expression over the facial features and say they don't know. The other day I finally gave in and asked at Reception what it was all about. She told me that that was the only clock in the Centre that did that, that they weren't interconnected and that she didn't know why. My best guess is that it's a radio clock, and it self-adjust every day at 4-00pm. But I've googled for "clock speeds up at 4-00pm" and the like and haven't found the answer. Some one here must have met one of these things. If so then let me know more. Ed Possible atomic clock of some kind? I have a strong suspicion you're right here. Everybody else seems to have gone for radio-control (I did myself as first guess), but look what googling has produced. It looks just like this; http://www.walmart.com/ip/14-Analog-...Pearl/13443480 And then take a look at these hits for images on "Analog Atomic Wall Clock"; there are zillions. http://tinyurl.com/bt95lv3 There must be quite a lot of these things in use around the world. The write-up says; Radio-Controlled Atomic Time Automatically sets to exact time Accurate to the second Automatically updates for daylight saving time (on/off option) 4 time zone settings 14'' Plastic Frame Simple Operation: Insert One AA Alkaline Battery (not included) After signal is received, press Time Zone button to set Four Time Zone Settings Daylight Saving Time Option On/Off Manual Reset Button Ed According to this, that product uses WWVB. http://www.lacrosse-clock.com/lacrosse_technology.htm The signal strength varies through the day. So if it was having a reception problem, you'd wait until the signal reached peak strength, to see if the clock could pick it up. http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/radioclocks.cfm ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB ) Amazing it runs off one AA alkaline cell. So while you don't have to set the time, the battery is still going to need changing. Paul I find that hard to believe, too. My little Acctim digital radio clock needs two AAs. But it also displays date, temp and phase of moon. Mind you, I can't recall having ever changed the batts since I got the thing. Ed Clearly the second battery is for the moon phase :-) Imagine the battery situation if these things had to use vacuum tubes (valves). Well, it would only need 200 batteries to reach the anode voltage. Fokke Good one! In the old days, they made batteries with about 60 cells and used tubes that needed a B+ (that's engineer's slang for anode voltage) of 90 volts. -- Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch) |
#40
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OT.... but I need help
On Fri, 2 Nov 2012 21:40:54 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Ed Cryer writes: Drew wrote: [] Possible atomic clock of some kind? I have a strong suspicion you're right here. Everybody else seems to have gone for radio-control (I did myself as first guess), but look what googling has produced. [] Bad (I'd say bordering on illegal, but it must be only bordering as they've been doing it for ages now) use of advertising copy. These clocks are _not_ atomic; they use radio signals from a reference elsewhere, which _may_ use an atomic clock mechanism for reference. A true atomic clock is very bulky, extremely expensive, and somewhat heavy. What's more, they advertise these clocks (and watches) as "accurate to a second in a million years" (or that sort of thing). Which, of course, they're not: the clock they're _linked_ to _may_ be. Can't see how they get away with such claims, but they obviously do. Well, people like you and me notice it, so they aren't really getting away with it :-) -- Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch) |
#41
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OT.... but I need help
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Fokke Nauta writes: On 02/11/2012 20:42, Gene E. Bloch wrote: On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 18:59:39 +0000, Ed Cryer wrote: [] I find that hard to believe, too. My little Acctim digital radio clock needs two AAs. But it also displays date, temp and phase of moon. Mind you, I can't recall having ever changed the batts since I got the thing. Ed My little Auriol has all of those except the moon phase, and contains two AAAs; they're the cheap (zinc-carbon?) kind, are the ones that came with it, and have been in since I got the clock. Clearly the second battery is for the moon phase :-) (-: Imagine the battery situation if these things had to use vacuum tubes (valves). Well, it would only need 200 batteries to reach the anode voltage. Fokke One battery, containing 200 cells ... though single cells do tend to be referred to as "batteries" these days. A car battery, or a PP3 or PP9, is a true battery; AA, AAA, C, D, etc. are cells. On old vacuum radio gear, there were two sets of batteries. There were large "cylinders" to be used for filaments. And "cubes" to power B+ voltage. You might need two of these "cubes" to get enough B+ for mobile operation. These are 67.5 volts each. http://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/...?f=19&t=196817 Something like this might have been for filaments. The filaments would likely be in parallel. Whereas some radios powered from the wall, the filaments were in series. http://www.radiolaguy.com/images/mis...A-cells-x4.jpg This is just a vague recollection of some stuff my father brought home when I was quite young. All the batteries in this case, were flat, so there was no chance to verify how many batteries were needed to run it. I could have done some serious damage as an experimenter, if those B+ batteries were working. Paul |
#42
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OT.... but I need help
On 11/1/2012 5:51 PM, Ed Cryer wrote: Bob I wrote: Take a close look at the face, and see who manufactured it, then Google. On 11/1/2012 2:04 PM, Ed Cryer wrote: In our local sports centre swimming pool there's a clock on the wall. It keeps good time. I've relied on it for years to time myself. However, every day at 4-00pm exactly it goes into overdrive, and sweeps round covering many hours in a few seconds. Then it resets at just after 4-00pm, and continues normally. I've pointed it out to many fellow swimmers; and they stare in amazement, raised eyebrows and a dim expression over the facial features and say they don't know. The other day I finally gave in and asked at Reception what it was all about. She told me that that was the only clock in the Centre that did that, that they weren't interconnected and that she didn't know why. My best guess is that it's a radio clock, and it self-adjust every day at 4-00pm. But I've googled for "clock speeds up at 4-00pm" and the like and haven't found the answer. Some one here must have met one of these things. If so then let me know more. Ed I thought of that. But I'd need a ladder at least ten feet high. It's almost at the top of the wall. Binoculars? Many years ago, I saw something similar happen, clock at the school ran slightly fast and at sync time it would advance 11 hours and 59 minutes to lose the 1 minute it was ahead. (or in reality 12 hours as it took almost a minute to spin the 12 revolutions) |
#43
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OT.... but I need help
Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 22:19:08 +0100, Fokke Nauta wrote: On 02/11/2012 19:56, Gene E. Bloch wrote: On Fri, 2 Nov 2012 07:29:38 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: In message , Gene E. Bloch writes: On Thu, 01 Nov 2012 19:59:41 -0400, charlie wrote: These days, the power companies don't necessarily do what they used to do to keep synchronous motor driven clocks on or close to the correct time. I have in the last couple of years tried to buy a synchronous motor clock, without success. IIRC, I wanted to run such a clock on the output of a 12 VDC to 120 VAC inverter to see how accurate the frequency was. [] If that's all you want it for, the cheapest type of digital alarm clocks - the sort with four LED digits, and a beep alarm and sometimes a radio - still tend to count mains (line) cycles. Probably impossible to tell before purchase, though. I'd have thought they'd have switched to quartz like everyone else by now, but presumably the circuit design (it's basically one chip, for the clock parts anyway) stabilised some decades ago, and there's been no reason to alter it. Interesting. I had thought they all used xtals these days (or even RC networks - what else could explain the lousy timekeeping of a couple I've seen?). Thanks. We have bought an alarm. It obviously worked on a xtal base. Each day it lagged 1 minute. So we changed it for another one. That one lagged less, 5 minutes per week. What does it say about using a xtall? Forget it. It's all cheap Chinese ****. Fokke There are crystals and there are crystals. I often see clocks that are accurate to a few seconds a day. We just got a kitchen timer that also has a clock in it; it cost $15US, and is accurate to about 3 seconds a week. So try a different brand :-) Quartz oscillators can have a trimmer cap in the design. And that can be used to trim out the initial tolerance. My digital watch has one of those in it. In the example here, the "5 to 35 picofarad" capacitor in the lower left hand corner of the image, is the trimmer cap. In a watch, it's a circle shaped thing, with room for s slot head screwdriver to turn the trimmer. http://www.seekic.com/uploadfile/ic-...0223133731.gif If a design leaves a factory, without any trimming capability, the trimming cap is replaced with a fixed value cap. And then, it's the initial tolerance of the quartz crystal that counts. Quartz crystals also "age" with time, so there is more to it than just nulling the initial tolerance out. (You don't have to read the whole section - just marvel at the size of the article :-) ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal...lity_and_aging And if you don't like quartz crystals, they do make pretty small atomic clocks. http://www.popsci.com/technology/art...-ever-now-sale Paul |
#44
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OT.... but I need help
In message , Paul
writes: [] And if you don't like quartz crystals, they do make pretty small atomic clocks. http://www.popsci.com/technology/art...atomic-clock-e ver-now-sale Paul I hadn't realised the technology had come on so! Mind you, at a tenth of a watt, that one's not going to run for long on an AA cell or two - and I don't have $1500 to spare either ... (-: [Still impressive, though.] -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf Or Margo Leadbetter sayig "Jerry" in a voice that could melt a box of After Eights. - David Butcher in RT, 12-18 May 2012. |
#45
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OT.... but I need help
In message , Paul
writes: J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: In message , Fokke Nauta writes: [] Well, it would only need 200 batteries to reach the anode voltage. Fokke One battery, containing 200 cells ... though single cells do tend to be referred to as "batteries" these days. A car battery, or a PP3 or PP9, is a true battery; AA, AAA, C, D, etc. are cells. On old vacuum radio gear, there were two sets of batteries. No, two batteries (-:. [That was the point I was making - "battery" strictly means, or used to, "a set of cells".] There were large "cylinders" to be used for filaments. Yes, the filaments - or heaters as they tend to be called in UK - generally ran on 6.3V (three lead-acid cells in series), though some valves had 2V or even 1.5V heaters. In UK (allegedly - I'm not old enough to remember this!), people without mains electricity had an "accumulator" - presumably such a 6V battery - which they took to a local shop to get charged. (Apparently often a local cycle shop.) And "cubes" to power B+ voltage. You might need two of these "cubes" to get enough B+ for mobile operation. [] I can _just_ - this would have been in the 1970s, in a rural town in north England - remember seeing such batteries on sale. About the shape (and size, and IIRR weight!) of a house brick, with a three prong connector in the middle. (I have a vague memory that it might have been 90V, but it could have been two hundred and something - or even two different voltages, given the three prong connector.) [By the way, I think the term "B+ voltage" is US; I'm not sure what term was used in UK, maybe HT.] filaments would likely be in parallel. Whereas some radios powered from the wall, the filaments were in series. Indeed. If in parallel, they could be different current ratings but had to be the same voltage (e. g. for battery/cell powered sets); if in series, they needed to be the same current rating but could be different voltages (provided they all added up to the supply voltage - sometimes with a big green series resistor to drop some of it and/or limit the on surge!). [] This is just a vague recollection of some stuff my father brought home when I was quite young. All the batteries in this case, were flat, so there was no chance to verify how many batteries were needed to run it. I Well, unless you wanted to keep them as a museum exhibit, you could find out by ripping the flat batteries apart to see how many cells they contained (which I expect would have been ordinary 1.5 volt cells, though of unusual shapes). I'd have thought they'd have the voltage printed on them, though. could have done some serious damage as an experimenter, if those B+ batteries were working. Paul (-: A fascinating diversion, this, for something like the Windows 7 newsgroup - I hope the rest don't mind! They might also enjoy http://www.bvwtm.org.uk/tour/. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf Or Margo Leadbetter sayig "Jerry" in a voice that could melt a box of After Eights. - David Butcher in RT, 12-18 May 2012. |
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