MS requires drivers to be handed over for signing

On 8/2/2016 9:59 AM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 2/08/16 21:50, Mayayana wrote:

The particular signing system that MS is imposing
is not just signing but *their* signing. It may block
open source drivers and self-signing because it's
relatively expensive and is restricted to organizations.
And Microsoft has final say.

In the end, it's about choices and freedom.

If you want the freedom to write and install unsigned drivers, write
them for an OS that doesn't care about such things as system control and
reliability. It's been a very long time since Windows was that kind of
OS, and I can't imagine MS reversing course now.

--
Best regards,

Neil

In article ,
Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 2/08/16 00:12, Mayayana wrote:

As for the PC belonging to you.... Well.... you're using
Win10 now. Best to get rid of such silly notions.

Micro$oft cannot control the piece of metal right in front of us. Got
your hammer ready?!
[ ... ]

No hammer needed, just a Linux install disc. Then Microsoft has no
access whatsoever to your computer, data, or bandwith.

Gary

On Tue, 02 Aug 2016 18:57:18 -0500, (Gary Heston)
wrote:

In article ,
Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 2/08/16 00:12, Mayayana wrote:

As for the PC belonging to you.... Well.... you're using
Win10 now. Best to get rid of such silly notions.

Micro$oft cannot control the piece of metal right in front of us. Got
your hammer ready?!
[ ... ]

No hammer needed, just a Linux install disc. Then Microsoft has no
access whatsoever to your computer, data, or bandwith.

Gary

I would take any version of Windows rather than a command line OS such
as Linux! Linux is not simple or easy and will NEVER become a
mainstream OS for average computer users!

On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 10:18:01 -0400, Wolf K wrote:

On 2016-08-02 22:42, Krypto wrote:
[...]
I would take any version of Windows rather than a command line OS such
as Linux! Linux is not simple or easy and will NEVER become a
mainstream OS for average computer users!

You've been out of the loop so long you're not even wrong. Fact is that
die-hard Linux fans are complaining that recent versions (Ubuntu, Mint)
are too much like Windows, as in too easy to use.

Have a good day,

Actually, for those of us who knew better than to follow MSFT down the
rabbit hole by sticking with win95osr2 (resisting blandishments to
upgrade to its inferior successors, win98, win98SE and winME) until
hardware upgrades allowed ram sizes of 1GB and up (which win95 couldn't
handle) before, in a last gasp chance to find a windows OS that *was* an
improvement over win95 in the form of the now venerable win2k, modern day
distros of Linux are a horrible mix of command line *and* desktop (but,
nevertheless, one hell of an improvement over MSFT's latest exploit,
windows 10).

I rather reluctantly gave up win2k as a host OS a year last April when a
MoBo, cpu, ram upgrade finally proved too much for win2k and found myself
reviewing the most likely Linux candidates as an alternative, quickly
settling on Linux Mint KDE 64 as the best compromise solution.

Whilst the desktop might look like it's aping MS windows, unfortunately,
the DE devs seem to have chosen Vista / win7 for their 'inspiration'
rather than win2k's classic desktop look and "feel". I've yet to come
across a Linux so called windows look-a-like that does more than just a
cosmetic job of emulating winXP, not even with those which claim their
sole purpose is to offer a winXP 'experience'.

For the majority of the consuming masses, Linux is far from ready for
'Prime Time'. You need to be of a more enquiring mind to get the most out
of even a 'modern' distro. Not only that, there are some serious
limitations by way of hardware driver support which may or may not bother
those made of sterner stuff than your typical MSFT's target demographic
consumer.

Just for one instance, it took me nearly a year before I finally
realised where the KDE devs had 'hidden' the right click drag 'n drop
mouse menu option, incredibly, it turned out to be hidden in plain sight
on the *left* mouse button! :-) I do get the impression that the devs
must be "dropping Acid" to gain their inspiration.

Still and all, after spending over a year now, I'm feeling more
comfortable using Linux Mint. True, it has its idiosyncrasies and
shortcomings but, in general, it serves *my* needs[1] quite well. I think
I'm over the worst of the learning curve but I'm still being surprised
from time to time. Oh, and for those who need to run windows only
software, it does help to have Oracle's VirtualBox installed and a
virtualised windows OS or three installed as VM guests. :-)

[1] I'm only speaking as I find. I certainly won't pretend to speak for
those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer to stick with what they
know (albeit, what most of windows 10 users think they may know is, in
general, very little indeed, certainly far less than what they knew with
win7 and win8). For most windows computer users, their needs would be far
better met with windows 7 rather than any flavour of Linux as an
alternative to windows 10.

--
Johnny B Good

On 3/08/16 00:15, Neil wrote:

If you want the freedom to write and install unsigned drivers, write
them for an OS that doesn't care about such things as system control and
reliability. It's been a very long time since Windows was that kind of
OS, and I can't imagine MS reversing course now.

Then you limited your choices. I still think it's fair for Micro$oft to
release a special certificate and a all-in-one driver signing tools for
amateur electronic component builds.

--
@~@ Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch! Live long and prosper!!
/ v \ Simplicity is Beauty!
/( _ )\ May the Force and farces be with you!
^ ^ (x86_64 Ubuntu 9.10) Linux 2.6.39.3
�借貸! ��騙! ��交! �打交! �打劫! �自殺! 請考慮綜� (CSSA):
http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_...sub_addressesa

On 8/3/2016 1:18 PM, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 10:18:01 -0400, Wolf K wrote:

On 2016-08-02 22:42, Krypto wrote:
[...]
I would take any version of Windows rather than a command line OS such
as Linux! Linux is not simple or easy and will NEVER become a
mainstream OS for average computer users!

You've been out of the loop so long you're not even wrong. Fact is that
die-hard Linux fans are complaining that recent versions (Ubuntu, Mint)
are too much like Windows, as in too easy to use.

Have a good day,

Actually, for those of us who knew better than to follow MSFT down the
rabbit hole by sticking with win95osr2 (resisting blandishments to
upgrade to its inferior successors, win98, win98SE and winME) until
hardware upgrades allowed ram sizes of 1GB and up (which win95 couldn't
handle) before, in a last gasp chance to find a windows OS that *was* an
improvement over win95 in the form of the now venerable win2k, modern day
distros of Linux are a horrible mix of command line *and* desktop (but,
nevertheless, one hell of an improvement over MSFT's latest exploit,
windows 10).

I rather reluctantly gave up win2k as a host OS a year last April when a
MoBo, cpu, ram upgrade finally proved too much for win2k and found myself
reviewing the most likely Linux candidates as an alternative, quickly
settling on Linux Mint KDE 64 as the best compromise solution.

Whilst the desktop might look like it's aping MS windows, unfortunately,
the DE devs seem to have chosen Vista / win7 for their 'inspiration'
rather than win2k's classic desktop look and "feel". I've yet to come
across a Linux so called windows look-a-like that does more than just a
cosmetic job of emulating winXP, not even with those which claim their
sole purpose is to offer a winXP 'experience'.

Take a look at Zorin OS.

For the majority of the consuming masses, Linux is far from ready for
'Prime Time'. You need to be of a more enquiring mind to get the most out
of even a 'modern' distro. Not only that, there are some serious
limitations by way of hardware driver support which may or may not bother
those made of sterner stuff than your typical MSFT's target demographic
consumer.

Just for one instance, it took me nearly a year before I finally
realised where the KDE devs had 'hidden' the right click drag 'n drop
mouse menu option, incredibly, it turned out to be hidden in plain sight
on the *left* mouse button! :-) I do get the impression that the devs
must be "dropping Acid" to gain their inspiration.

It's all about freedom. Individual linux developers express their
individuality...standards be damned.
Linux is adequate in most every dimension to meet the needs of most
current linux users. Problem is that there are too many distros
and they change with the wind. Hardware and software developers
have a moving target that they can't afford to track. If the linux
desktop crew would just pick something and stick with it, the edges
would get rounded off and features familiar to current windows
users would emerge. Too bad that that's actively discouraged by
the linux community and rabid defenders of same.

Desktop linux needs a BRAND that's stable. How well do you think
Starbucks would be doing if every store had the freedom to pick
a store name and sell coffee under randomized unfamiliar names that
tasted different?

Still and all, after spending over a year now, I'm feeling more
comfortable using Linux Mint. True, it has its idiosyncrasies and
shortcomings but, in general, it serves *my* needs[1] quite well. I think
I'm over the worst of the learning curve but I'm still being surprised
from time to time. Oh, and for those who need to run windows only
software, it does help to have Oracle's VirtualBox installed and a
virtualised windows OS or three installed as VM guests. :-)

[1] I'm only speaking as I find. I certainly won't pretend to speak for
those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer to stick with what they
know (albeit, what most of windows 10 users think they may know is, in
general, very little indeed, certainly far less than what they knew with
win7 and win8). For most windows computer users, their needs would be far
better met with windows 7 rather than any flavour of Linux as an
alternative to windows 10.

| Then you limited your choices. I still think it's fair for Micro$oft to
| release a special certificate and a all-in-one driver signing tools for
| amateur electronic component builds.
|

They can certainly do that.... by not requiring
drivers be approved and signed by themselves.
Which is the way it's been in the past. But the
whole point here is to control the device; to *not*
accomodate options. DRM might be one aspect.
Reliability might be another. Even security could
be an aspect, although that's really not a serious
consideration. But taken altogether it's a redefining
of the device. Microsoft have made very clear that
they want to define themselves as providers of the
device, not just the software that runs on it. They're
gradually working on closing the barn door. One step
in that process is to require their own approval of
drivers, stepping in between hardware makers and
their customers. Another step is to get you to
accept Win10, trading the ability to control your
computer for the ability to complain.

On 8/4/2016 8:21 AM, Mayayana wrote:
| Then you limited your choices. I still think it's fair for Micro$oft to
| release a special certificate and a all-in-one driver signing tools for
| amateur electronic component builds.
|

They can certainly do that.... by not requiring
drivers be approved and signed by themselves.
Which is the way it's been in the past. But the
whole point here is to control the device; to *not*
accomodate options.

That is certainly the outcome, whether or not it is the intent.

DRM might be one aspect.
Reliability might be another. Even security could
be an aspect, although that's really not a serious
consideration.

I'm sure that security is a serious consideration for those who are
extensively using OneDrive. As another poster discovered, that is
becoming the default configuration for MS Office and other apps.

But taken altogether it's a redefining
of the device. Microsoft have made very clear that
they want to define themselves as providers of the
device, not just the software that runs on it.

I think that's over the top. Microsoft defines themselves as the creator
of the OS and selective devices (Surface tablets, etc.), but I don't see
them claiming to be the provider of HP, Dell, or other devices.

They're
gradually working on closing the barn door. One step
in that process is to require their own approval of
drivers, stepping in between hardware makers and
their customers.

Another way to look at it is that if approval by hardware makers worked
all that well in the past, MS wouldn't have to institute a new policy.
The fact is, it didn't work well, and increased MS' support costs for
problems they had nothing to do with.

--
Best regards,

Neil

On 8/4/2016 1:03 AM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 3/08/16 00:15, Neil wrote:

If you want the freedom to write and install unsigned drivers, write
them for an OS that doesn't care about such things as system control and
reliability. It's been a very long time since Windows was that kind of
OS, and I can't imagine MS reversing course now.

Then you limited your choices. I still think it's fair for Micro$oft to
release a special certificate and a all-in-one driver signing tools for
amateur electronic component builds.

My experience with Windows and hardware drivers is they were poorly
coordinated with OS updates, which led to circular finger-pointing. The
new policy implies that the buck stops with MS, which may be a good thing.

--
Best regards,

Neil

On 4/08/16 23:02, Neil wrote:

My experience with Windows and hardware drivers is they were poorly
coordinated with OS updates, which led to circular finger-pointing. The
new policy implies that the buck stops with MS, which may be a good thing.

It's monarchy if not anarchy... no good!

--
@~@ Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch! Live long and prosper!!
/ v \ Simplicity is Beauty!
/( _ )\ May the Force and farces be with you!
^ ^ (x86_64 Ubuntu 9.10) Linux 2.6.39.3
�借貸! ��騙! ��交! �打交! �打劫! �自殺! 請考慮綜� (CSSA):
http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_...sub_addressesa

| My experience with Windows and hardware drivers is they were poorly
| coordinated with OS updates, which led to circular finger-pointing. The
| new policy implies that the buck stops with MS, which may be a good thing.

Hardware companies write drivers for whatever
versions they think are worth supporting. MS
signing does not mean that ATI will have drivers
ready at the release of the next major Windows
change. They may or may not support it on older
hardware. All it means is that hardware companies
must get whatever drivers they do write approved
by MS. It's about control. Unsigned drivers have
little to do with quality. The hardware companies
have a vested interest in making non-buggy drivers.
I can't remember ever having trouble with drivers
and I'm not sure I've ever got signed drivers. (I'm
just talking about basic signing here, which MS has
been pushing. The new change is MS signing.) If you
have a printer you bought for Win7 and can't get
drivers for Win10, that won't change. The change
is akin to haivng to get Metro apps approved. MS
is stepping in.

On 8/4/2016 5:54 PM, Mayayana wrote:
| I wrote:
| My experience with Windows and hardware drivers is they were poorly
| coordinated with OS updates, which led to circular finger-pointing. The
| new policy implies that the buck stops with MS, which may be a good thing.

Hardware companies write drivers for whatever
versions they think are worth supporting. MS
signing does not mean that ATI will have drivers
ready at the release of the next major Windows
change.

True, but that's a different issue than I was implying. Many hardware
companies wrote drivers that ignored the specifications for interfacing
their type of device with the OS, but they worked because those specs
weren't strictly enforced until a later OS update. By verifying that the
drivers meet the spec, MS can save a bunch on tech support calls that
they have no control over.

The hardware companies
have a vested interest in making non-buggy drivers.

If only that stopped them from writing buggy drivers... ;-)

I can't remember ever having trouble with drivers
and I'm not sure I've ever got signed drivers.

My experience is very different, but until very recently I didn't have
any "plain vanilla" PCs. Even so, I still get updated drivers that solve
problems with the original hardware, the most recent being drivers for
the touchpad on this computer. So, I can only conclude that the original
drivers were buggy.

--
Best regards,

Neil