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#1
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Anyone using "Pandora" email client with "TalkTalk" ISP (UK) and can help us get sending working?
My blind friends have been using the "Eudora" email client for many
years, and it still works; however, it is beginning to have problems, for example with security certificates. (It ceased development in 2006, so it's not doing bad!) Changing software is difficult for many of us, but more so for the blind - they have learnt how to navigate round the software using keyboard only. I was aware that Eudora was having problems, so was pleased to read about Pandora, which was claimed to be very usable by those used to Eudora, and still being supported/developed (it claims to work on at least XP to 10, and I think some other OSs [Julia uses 7-64]); however, I just told my friends about it, to let them if they wanted have a look and decide. (We've been burned by a claimed replacement before.) Julia has downloaded, installed, and configured it (she's quite computer literate), and quite likes it; however, she can't get it to _send_ emails - and neither could I, in a Teamviewer session. (_Receiving_ is working fine.) I think the problem is that Pandora is more versatile, to cater for the authentication requirements ISPs use these days. But we _think_ we've tried all the permutations! http://255soft.uk/temp/Clipboard01.jpg shows the configuration window, as well as one of the error messages we get, in the log window at the bottom. There _seem_ to be three areas to play with, giving in theory 18 permutations: "Authentication", which can be Basic, MD5-something, or OAuth2; "Secure Sockets when Sending", which can be Never, If Available (STARTTLS), or Always; and "Include on global send", which is a tickbox. Unticking the last seemed to prevent Pandora even trying to send when told to (nothing appeared in the log window). I'm pretty sure I tried all 9 combinations with it ticked. Selecting OAuth2 generated an error message something like "unrecognised authentication method". TalkTalk's setting page at https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/...3/ta-p/2204399 says don't use MD5, but I tried it anyway - I forget what error message we got, but it didn't work. Looking at what Julia had set in Eudora, "If Available" was set. As you can see, that - with "Basic" - generated "5.7.0.7garbage Authentication Credentials Invalid (TT300) [535]". Some of the other combinations generated "Invalid Command" (I think with "504"). You'd think the meaning of "credentials invalid" is obvious - username or password are wrong; but (a) the same ones work in Eudora, (b) they're working for _sending_. Any thoughts? (Especially if you use Pandora with TalkTalk!) (The above settings page just says "Outgoing START/TLS: Yes, Outgoing Authentication: Yes" - nothing about which _type_ of authentication. But the text below the table says don't use MD5, and selecting OAuth2 gave a message implying that wasn't recognised, so Basic seems the most likely.) -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf Politics: A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. - Oscar Wilde, quoted by Ron Bauerle 2015-7-24 |
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#2
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Anyone using "Pandora" email client with "TalkTalk" ISP (UK) and can help us get sending working?
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:
My blind friends have been using the "Eudora" email client for many years, and it still works; however, it is beginning to have problems, for example with security certificates. (It ceased development in 2006, so it's not doing bad!) Changing software is difficult for many of us, but more so for the blind - they have learnt how to navigate round the software using keyboard only. I was aware that Eudora was having problems, so was pleased to read about Pandora, which was claimed to be very usable by those used to Eudora, and still being supported/developed (it claims to work on at least XP to 10, and I think some other OSs [Julia uses 7-64]); however, I just told my friends about it, to let them if they wanted have a look and decide. (We've been burned by a claimed replacement before.) Julia has downloaded, installed, and configured it (she's quite computer literate), and quite likes it; however, she can't get it to _send_ emails - and neither could I, in a Teamviewer session. (_Receiving_ is working fine.) I think the problem is that Pandora is more versatile, to cater for the authentication requirements ISPs use these days. But we _think_ we've tried all the permutations! http://255soft.uk/temp/Clipboard01.jpg shows the configuration window, as well as one of the error messages we get, in the log window at the bottom. There _seem_ to be three areas to play with, giving in theory 18 permutations: "Authentication", which can be Basic, MD5-something, or OAuth2; "Secure Sockets when Sending", which can be Never, If Available (STARTTLS), or Always; and "Include on global send", which is a tickbox. Unticking the last seemed to prevent Pandora even trying to send when told to (nothing appeared in the log window). I'm pretty sure I tried all 9 combinations with it ticked. Selecting OAuth2 generated an error message something like "unrecognised authentication method". TalkTalk's setting page at https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/...3/ta-p/2204399 says don't use MD5, but I tried it anyway - I forget what error message we got, but it didn't work. Looking at what Julia had set in Eudora, "If Available" was set. As you can see, that - with "Basic" - generated "5.7.0.7garbage Authentication Credentials Invalid (TT300) [535]". Some of the other combinations generated "Invalid Command" (I think with "504"). You'd think the meaning of "credentials invalid" is obvious - username or password are wrong; but (a) the same ones work in Eudora, (b) they're working for _sending_. Any thoughts? (Especially if you use Pandora with TalkTalk!) (The above settings page just says "Outgoing START/TLS: Yes, Outgoing Authentication: Yes" - nothing about which _type_ of authentication. But the text below the table says don't use MD5, and selecting OAuth2 gave a message implying that wasn't recognised, so Basic seems the most likely.) "If available, use StartTLS" means the client will use TLS if the server reports back StartTLS in its keyword status response. This is a drop-down list of choices which could be: - Don't use a secure connection. - Use TLS/SSL if available. - Force use of SSL/TLS. TLS 1.0 was no more secure than SSL 3.0 the latter of which got deprecated because it was vulnerable. However, TLS 1.0 and SSL 3.0 are incompatible because the handshaking changed. Then servers moved to TLS 1.1 and 1.2. Now they're moving to TLS 1.3. TLS 1.3 was not ratified until 2018 although sometimes clients start supporting an RFC standard before it gets ratified; however, TLS 1.3 came out long after Eudora got abandoned. In the past, there were also weak ciphers that got removed from operating systems. Some were just deprecated, but that meant they were headed to the chopping block. As I recall, the server will request a cipher but will allow fallback at the client, but may still not support what the client fallbacks to. It is still the choice by the server as to which cipher it will allow. https://www.acunetix.com/blog/articl...her-hardening/ https://electricenergyonline.com/ene...ak-Ciphers.htm Been too long since I used Windows XP to remember just when Microsoft pushed some Windows updates that removed only some of the weakest ciphers. When the problem was discovered, their first recommendation was registry edits to disable them. However, just because a weak cipher remains defined in an OS doesn't mean a server will grant their use in a session between client and that server. You might have to use sTunnel as a local proxy through which you make your secure connections with your clients that are too old to support the later encryption schemes. Unlike Eudora, sTunnel is still supported, and includes covering TLS 1.3. It operates as a local proxy: you configure your client to locally connect to it using non-encrypted connections, you configure sTunnel to listen on the ports the client uses to it, and configure sTunnel to connect to the server. Hopefully, once you get it setup, it runs fine; however, if they proxy becomes unresponsive, all traffic through it is stoppped, and you won't get anymore e-mail until you fix the setup. You're adding another link in the chain between client and server. https://www.stunnel.org/ If you don't want to go through all that hassle then you'll need to consider if you really need encryption connections with an old e-mail client. You could the other settings to see if those work. "If available" means the client tries to detect and match what the server reports it supports, but you might try "Force SSL/TLS" instead to always have the client use TLS. If that doesn't work, you're stuck using no encryption; however, some e-mail servers demand encrypted connections to prevent sending login credentials in the clear. As for OAUTH2 authentication, that uses tokens (refresh and access) from the server. Once you get a token, the login credentials are no longer used. However, the access token expires, and the refresh token (with a far longer expiration) is used to get another access token from the server supposedly without any user intervention. While this is supposed to be transparent to the user when getting (refreshing) a new access token, some clients don't perform an automatic and non-interruptive refresh. Also, OAUTH2 was in its infancy back in 2006, and it was a framework (OAUTH1 was a protocol), so different places implemented it differently. Unless the client has a mean to allow the user to manually initiate a refresh to get a new access token, the user has to delete the account and recreate it in the client to force getting a new access token. If the client isn't doing an automatic refresh to get a new access token to replace the old expired one, or the refresh token itself has expired and the client doesn't initiate a new request for them, you'll have to see what, if any, means there are in the client to make it get new tokens. You might have to delete the account in the client (to eradicate the old tokens) and recreate the account and login to get new tokens. I just checked. OAUTH2 didn't come out until 2013. So, your client must be using OAUTH1 although that didn't show up until 2009. Could be the e-mail provider no longer support OAUTH1 (circa 2009). That your client supports OAUTH any version means it must've gotten some maintenance since 2006. If Eudora did indeed stop getting maintained around 2006, I wouldn't trust its OAUTH to be reliable. Hopefully your e-mail provider doesn't demand use of OAUTH, and they support just the simple login schemes. Presumably you already matched the settings in the client to those specified by the e-mail provider at: https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/...3/ta-p/2204399 Be sure to use the correct port for SMTP (sending). Port 25 was never to be used by MUAs (Mail User Agents aka clients), and only between MTAs (Mail Transfer Agents aka servers), but it got used anyway by clients. Many e-mail providers moved to port 587, and that's what MUAs are to use. There was a period where they allowed both during a rather long grace period, but many have now completed switch to 587 for client connections. It's been a long time since it's happened to me again, but in the past the provider wanted to ensure a human was using their e-mail service. When using their webmail client, they would interrupt the login with an interstitial page asking for validationg a human was using the service. If validated, the login completed, and the webmail client showed the e-mail page(s). Local e-mail clients aren't web browsers, so they couldn't show the interstitial web page. The user had to use a web browser to visit their account to login, get past the interstitial security page, complete the login, and thereafter the local e-mail client would start working again ... until later when the service decided again it wanted to verify a human was using the service. Login using the webmail client to see if the local client starts working again. Oh, did you ever try disabling e-mail interrogation by whatever anti-malware software that is installed on the computer? That uses a transparent proxy to interrogate the e-mail traffic. If that proxy becomes unresponsive, you won't get or send any e-mails. If the proxy takes a long time to interrogate the e-mail traffic, it will cause timeouts at the client (on receive) or server (on send). Usually you can just disable e-mail inspection in the AV to test if that is causing the problem. However, likely the e-mail traffic still goes through the proxy but without interrogation, and if there is a problem with the proxy then there will be a problem with your e-mails. You could try disabling e-mail scanning in the AV and reboot. If that doesn't work, reconfigure the AV to *not* inspect the e-mail traffic (which is superfluous, anyway, and provides no additional protection), reboot, and retest without their proxy linked into the path for your e-mail traffic. |
#3
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Anyone using "Pandora" email client with "TalkTalk" ISP (UK)and can help us get sending working?
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
My blind friends have been using the "Eudora" email client for many years, and it still works; however, it is beginning to have problems, for example with security certificates. (It ceased development in 2006, so it's not doing bad!) Changing software is difficult for many of us, but more so for the blind - they have learnt how to navigate round the software using keyboard only. I was aware that Eudora was having problems, so was pleased to read about Pandora, which was claimed to be very usable by those used to Eudora, and still being supported/developed (it claims to work on at least XP to 10, and I think some other OSs [Julia uses 7-64]); however, I just told my friends about it, to let them if they wanted have a look and decide. (We've been burned by a claimed replacement before.) Julia has downloaded, installed, and configured it (she's quite computer literate), and quite likes it; however, she can't get it to _send_ emails - and neither could I, in a Teamviewer session. (_Receiving_ is working fine.) I think the problem is that Pandora is more versatile, to cater for the authentication requirements ISPs use these days. But we _think_ we've tried all the permutations! http://255soft.uk/temp/Clipboard01.jpg shows the configuration window, as well as one of the error messages we get, in the log window at the bottom. There _seem_ to be three areas to play with, giving in theory 18 permutations: "Authentication", which can be Basic, MD5-something, or OAuth2; "Secure Sockets when Sending", which can be Never, If Available (STARTTLS), or Always; and "Include on global send", which is a tickbox. Unticking the last seemed to prevent Pandora even trying to send when told to (nothing appeared in the log window). I'm pretty sure I tried all 9 combinations with it ticked. Selecting OAuth2 generated an error message something like "unrecognised authentication method". TalkTalk's setting page at https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/...3/ta-p/2204399 says don't use MD5, but I tried it anyway - I forget what error message we got, but it didn't work. Looking at what Julia had set in Eudora, "If Available" was set. As you can see, that - with "Basic" - generated "5.7.0.7garbage Authentication Credentials Invalid (TT300) [535]". Some of the other combinations generated "Invalid Command" (I think with "504"). You'd think the meaning of "credentials invalid" is obvious - username or password are wrong; but (a) the same ones work in Eudora, (b) they're working for _sending_. Any thoughts? (Especially if you use Pandora with TalkTalk!) (The above settings page just says "Outgoing START/TLS: Yes, Outgoing Authentication: Yes" - nothing about which _type_ of authentication. But the text below the table says don't use MD5, and selecting OAuth2 gave a message implying that wasn't recognised, so Basic seems the most likely.) I was going to say "try 465", but I see here it has not been blessed by the Pope. Even though I was using it inside my test VM a day or two ago. https://www.mailgun.com/blog/which-s...ts-25-465-587/ As for your Pandora pic, I like that it has a log output. But the problem with logging, is sometimes the tool tells a porky, and the actual root cause, isn't what the message said. I interpret what I'm seeing there as "Something went wrong...", but it's hard to tell whether it was a STARTTLS sequence, a TLS sequence, the actual username/password or what. You would think that pulling mail tested the username/password, but of course the two pieces of equipment (SMTP end), might be at the other end of the hall, and the two machines might have their own (different) authentication tables. You always have to plan for the unlikely situations, when dealing with the Internet. You can test with Telnet or maybe even Putty, as long as the tool you select supports SSL/TLS. I think my attempts to carry out a telnet-esque session, failed. And it's probably because the tool didn't support a relatively recent TLS flavor. Oh, I remember what it was. The mail client I was testing, was getting snotty about the certificate, whereas Thunderbird said "OK, if we have to...". Some clients would say "your certificate smells, would you like to accept the consequences and get on with life?". When the prompt is a lie, and the client has no intention of accepting *anything* that smells. Consequently, even if you click "Yes, go right ahead and use the smelly thing", your connection will not be allowed on your end. Wouldn't it be neat, if logs logged everything ? I must be delusional or something. Not gonna happen. Haven't seen that since the excellent logging on PPP dialup. Paul |
#4
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Anyone using "Pandora" email client with "TalkTalk" ISP (UK) and can help us get sending working?
On Thu, 4 Feb 2021 at 14:28:18, VanguardLH wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised): "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote: My blind friends have been using the "Eudora" email client for many years, and it still works; however, it is beginning to have problems, [] read about Pandora, which was claimed to be very usable by those used to [] I just told my friends about it, to let them if they wanted have a look and decide. (We've been burned by a claimed replacement before.) Julia has downloaded, installed, and configured it (she's quite computer literate), and quite likes it; however, she can't get it to _send_ [] http://255soft.uk/temp/Clipboard01.jpg shows the configuration window, [] "If available, use StartTLS" means the client will use TLS if the server reports back StartTLS in its keyword status response. This is a drop-down list of choices which could be: - Don't use a secure connection. - Use TLS/SSL if available. - Force use of SSL/TLS. That's almost exactly the three options offered BY PANDORA, which is what we are trying to use. Eudora is working fine, and is using a setting with "if available" in it. [] before it gets ratified; however, TLS 1.3 came out long after Eudora got abandoned. I appreciate the effort you've put into explaining, but a lot of it seems to be the wrong way round: our situation is that Eudora - the ancient client - IS WORKING, but Pandora - the new one we're trying to switch to, for a bit of future-proofing - ISN'T. (For sending. It's receiving fine.) [] Been too long since I used Windows XP to remember just when Microsoft pushed some Windows updates that removed only some of the weakest ciphers. When the problem was discovered, their first recommendation [] You might have to use sTunnel as a local proxy through which you make your secure connections with your clients that are too old to support the later encryption schemes. Unlike Eudora, sTunnel is still No, old Eudora is working fine; newer Pandora isn't. It's Pandora we'd like to use, though. [] If you don't want to go through all that hassle then you'll need to consider if you really need encryption connections with an old e-mail client. You could the other settings to see if those work. "If See above! [] As for OAUTH2 authentication, that uses tokens (refresh and access) from the server. Once you get a token, the login credentials are no longer used. However, the access token expires, and the refresh token (with a far longer expiration) is used to get another access token from the server supposedly without any user intervention. While this is supposed Well, when I tried it, the log message implied it wasn't recognised (though Paul says logs don't necessarily tell the truth). However, I don't think Eudora has OAuth2, and that's working, so presumably TalkTalk don't require it. [] I just checked. OAUTH2 didn't come out until 2013. So, your client So Eudora - which is working - is definitely not using it, so therefore TalkTalk don't require it. must be using OAUTH1 although that didn't show up until 2009. Could be the e-mail provider no longer support OAUTH1 (circa 2009). That your client supports OAUTH any version means it must've gotten some maintenance since 2006. If Eudora did indeed stop getting maintained around 2006, I wouldn't trust its OAUTH to be reliable. Hopefully your e-mail provider doesn't demand use of OAUTH, and they support just the simple login schemes. Eudora is working fine; I don't think it's had any patch. (I think we might have had something to get round problems of security certificates, but I don't think that had anything to do with login authentifications.) Pandora - which I think is more or less "current" - is not working. I think it's just a setting combination we're not using, but we haven't hit it yet. Presumably you already matched the settings in the client to those specified by the e-mail provider at: https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/...s-IMAP-amp-POP 3/ta-p/2204399 Have you looked at that, and at http://255soft.uk/temp/Clipboard01.jpg? If you can spot something we haven't "matched", please tell me; the only area I'm unsure of is that talktalk just show "Yes" for some settings, whereas Pandora has more options. Be sure to use the correct port for SMTP (sending). Port 25 was never to be used by MUAs (Mail User Agents aka clients), and only between MTAs (Mail Transfer Agents aka servers), but it got used anyway by clients. Many e-mail providers moved to port 587, and that's what MUAs are to use. There was a period where they allowed both during a rather long grace period, but many have now completed switch to 587 for client connections. We're using 587. It's been a long time since it's happened to me again, but in the past the provider wanted to ensure a human was using their e-mail service. When using their webmail client, they would interrupt the login with an interstitial page asking for validationg a human was using the service. Old Eudora is working, so I don't think a check of that nature is being done. [] I don't think talktalk would anyway - they're one of the UK's biggest ISPs, and though like everyone else I think they'd love us all to use webmail or at least IMAP, I suspect they have enough customers using clients (such as Thunderbird) that there'd be quite a stink if they did that sort of thing. (POP/IMAP's irrelevant anyway as that's for receiving, which is working; it's sending, presumably with SMTP as that's in the server name, that isn't - in Pandora.) Oh, did you ever try disabling e-mail interrogation by whatever anti-malware software that is installed on the computer? That uses a transparent proxy to interrogate the e-mail traffic. If that proxy becomes unresponsive, you won't get or send any e-mails. If the proxy takes a long time to interrogate the e-mail traffic, it will cause timeouts at the client (on receive) or server (on send). Usually you can just disable e-mail inspection in the AV to test if that is causing the problem. However, likely the e-mail traffic still goes through the proxy but without interrogation, and if there is a problem with the proxy then there will be a problem with your e-mails. You could try disabling e-mail scanning in the AV and reboot. If that doesn't work, reconfigure the AV to *not* inspect the e-mail traffic (which is superfluous, anyway, and provides no additional protection), reboot, and retest without their proxy linked into the path for your e-mail traffic. I can't remember if Julia has email scanning - I think not - or any other intermediary (she used Mailwasher at one point I do remember); but whether she is or not, if that was the problem, I presume it would stop old Eudora sending, which it isn't doing. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die - attributed to Carrie Fisher by Gareth McLean, in Radio Times 28 January-3 February 2012 |
#5
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Anyone using "Pandora" email client with "TalkTalk" ISP (UK) and can help us get sending working?
On Thu, 4 Feb 2021 at 15:45:50, Paul wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised): J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: My blind friends have been using the "Eudora" email client for many [] http://255soft.uk/temp/Clipboard01.jpg shows the configuration window, as well as one of the error messages we get, in the log window at the bottom. [] TalkTalk's setting page at https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/...gs-IMAP-amp-PO P3/ta-p/2204399 says don't use MD5, but I tried it anyway - I [Rest snipped. Basically, she can send email with ancient Eudora, but not with more recent Pandora. (Receiving is working fine.)] [] As for your Pandora pic, I like that it has a log output. But the problem with logging, is sometimes the tool tells a porky, and the actual root cause, isn't what the message said. I interpret what I'm seeing there as "Something went wrong...", but it's hard to tell whether it was a STARTTLS sequence, a TLS sequence, the actual username/password or what. You would think that pulling mail tested the username/password, but of course the two pieces of equipment (SMTP end), might be at the other end of the hall, and the two machines might have their own (different) authentication tables. You always have to plan for the unlikely situations, when dealing with the Internet. Indeed - though Julia is using the same username/password combination for both sending and receiving in Eudora, and both are working there. So an authentication setting _seems_ to be the most likely problem. FWIW, I've seen at least three error message types in the log window: the shown "Authentication Credentials Invalid (TT300) [535]", one something like "Invalid Command" (I think with "504"), and something like authentication type not recognised (I think that was when trying with OAuth2). I take on board your point that the logging message might not be correct. [Do the numbers mean anything?] Repeating the send attempt with the same settings always gave the same error message. You can test with Telnet or maybe even Putty, as long as _You_ can; I've used Telnet in the past, and I actually like "talking direct to the server", but not for decades! (Not to mention this would be via a TeamViewer connection.) the tool you select supports SSL/TLS. I think my attempts to carry out a telnet-esque session, failed. And it's probably because the tool didn't support a relatively recent TLS flavor. Oh, I remember what it was. The mail client I was testing, was getting snotty about the certificate, whereas Thunderbird said "OK, if we have to...". Some clients would say "your certificate smells, would you like to accept the consequences and get on with life?". When the prompt is a lie, and the client has no intention of accepting *anything* that smells. Consequently, even if you click "Yes, go right ahead and use the smelly thing", your connection will not be allowed on your end. I would _imagine_ any certificate problem would show up more in the old Eudora than the newer Pandora. Wouldn't it be neat, if logs logged everything ? Yes! I must be delusional or something. Not gonna happen. Haven't seen that since the excellent logging on PPP dialup. Paul (I think Turnpike's log logs pretty much everything; it certainly generates enough.) 3 -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want. CALVIN AND HOBBES, according to a @qikipedia tweet 2019-9-9. |
#6
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Anyone using "Pandora" email client with "TalkTalk" ISP (UK) and can help us get sending working?
On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 at 10:11:20, jetjock wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised): On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 04:15:07 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote: SNIP You can try contacting Brana directly at with words "Bug Report" included in message subject. The report must contain enough information to reproduce the problem. He is very good about answering. I always feel guilty about asking for help when only using the free version, but I may try, thanks. You can also try posting in the forum at https://pandoramail.forumotion.net/f2-pandora-support Might try that too, though I'm not keen on fora. Best of luck! jetjock Thanks! -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf I use science as my model here. We will crawl toward the truth without ever knowing if we are all the way there. - Scott Adams, 2015-3-20 |
#7
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Anyone using "Pandora" email client with "TalkTalk" ISP (UK) and can help us get sending working?
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:
VanguardLH wrote: "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote: Julia has downloaded, installed, and configured [Pandora Mail] (she's quite computer literate), and quite likes it; however, she can't get it to _send_ http://255soft.uk/temp/Clipboard01.jpg shows the configuration window, "If available, use StartTLS" means the client will use TLS if the server reports back StartTLS in its keyword status response. This is a drop-down list of choices which could be: - Don't use a secure connection. - Use TLS/SSL if available. - Force use of SSL/TLS. That's almost exactly the three options offered BY PANDORA, which is what we are trying to use. Eudora is working fine, and is using a setting with "if available" in it. What are the choices for "Authentication"? You show it is set to Basic, but I don't know what it means in that program. Does it include Help to tell you what are the available choices for Authentication? I appreciate the effort you've put into explaining, but a lot of it seems to be the wrong way round: our situation is that Eudora - the ancient client - IS WORKING, but Pandora - the new one we're trying to switch to, for a bit of future-proofing - ISN'T. (For sending. It's receiving fine.) If you haven't paid for it, perhaps "Demo-Mode" does not include sending. Also, it says it is using the OpenSSL library, but doesn't mention which version. As I recall, OpenSSL had to get updated due to security issues probably related to using old or deprecated ciphers. Other than mentioning it uses OpenSSL, it gives to accredidation to OpenSSL or mention which version it incorporates. As OpenSSL gets updated, so should also the software that incorporates it. The only mention of OpenSSL in Pandora's release notes is way back to Pandora 1.0.1 (no datestamp, but suspect that was a long time ago). Note: The datestamp at the end of the Release History web page is for when the content got updated, not the datestamp of any particular version of the Pandora program. From its forum site, the earliest forum post is dated over 4 years ago, but no mention of the Pandora Mail version. A search on "openssl" returns nothing, so no one has discussed it in their forums. Still no idea if OpenSSL got updated in Pandora Mail. If you don't want to go through all that hassle then you'll need to consider if you really need encryption connections with an old e-mail client. You could the other settings to see if those work. "If See above! And what happens when you chose to /not/ use StartTLS (and establish a non-encrypted connection to the mail servers)? So Eudora - which is working - is definitely not using it, so therefore TalkTalk don't require it. Pandora was written later (or copied from Eudora code). That Eudora is not using OAUTH2 doesn't mean that Pandora is also not using OAUTH2. Does Eudora have a StartTLS (try to use TLS) option, or is it missing in Eudora? You show Pandora is configured to try using TLS. Sorry, without a list of Authentication choices, I don't know what Basic might be when compared to the other choices. What happens when you configure Pandora Mail to /not/ use TLS? Does TalkTalk allow non-encrypted connections to its mail servers? Some now demand an encrypted connection. .... Sorry for the late reply. The only "Pandora" that I know of is the music streaming service (pandora.com). After a search, I found: https://www.drivehq.com/web/brana/pandora.htm Pandora is not the same as Pandora Mail. Yep, confusing naming and possibly copyright infringement, especially since users will likely shorten Pandora Mail to just Pandora. When I look at drivehq's home page, I don't see anything of them doing e-mail services. From their Software page, their software is oriented to their file storage services, plus they offer software from other 3rd parties (e.g., Filezilla). An e-mail client seems a complete departure from what services and other software they provide. Makes me wonder where they stole, er, acquired the code. From what I found, "Pandora Mail, an e-mail client intended to replicate the functionality of Eudora", but no mention if that was for the classic version or the Thunderbird fork. Wonder how much of the original code was borrowed. It is a shareware program. Did you pay ($14) to uncripple it? "Pandora Mail is a shareware program. This means that you can use it with the limited set of features for free (Demo-Mode), or register the program and gain the access to the full set of features (Full-Mode)." I didn't see a free-vs-paid web page delineating just what is "limited" in the free version. The Pandora subsite at drivehq.com site has a forum link pointing to: https://pandoramail.forumotion.net/ Your error message says "Authentication failed". Have you tried using TalkTalk's webmail client to make sure you can send using your account with their webmail client? Copy the username and password fields from Pandora to login using TalkTalk's webmail client. That would eliminate any accidental inclusion of space characters that aren't shown to you. Did you yet test with your anti-virus software /not/ intercepting and interrogating your e-mail traffic? In your AV, configure it to /not/ interrogate your e-mail traffic. That the AV may not interrogate Eudora's e-mail traffic does not mandate it isn't interrogating e-mail traffic for Pandora Mail. Just discard the superfluous e-mail scanner in whatever AV is used. |
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Anyone using "Pandora" email client with "TalkTalk" ISP (UK) and can help us get sending working?
Answered for academic interest only. Reason at or near end.
On Tue, 23 Feb 2021 at 09:50:05, VanguardLH wrote (my responses usually follow points raised): "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote: VanguardLH wrote: "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote: Julia has downloaded, installed, and configured [Pandora Mail] (she's quite computer literate), and quite likes it; however, she can't get it to _send_ http://255soft.uk/temp/Clipboard01.jpg shows the configuration window, "If available, use StartTLS" means the client will use TLS if the server reports back StartTLS in its keyword status response. This is a drop-down list of choices which could be: - Don't use a secure connection. - Use TLS/SSL if available. - Force use of SSL/TLS. That's almost exactly the three options offered BY PANDORA, which is what we are trying to use. Eudora is working fine, and is using a setting with "if available" in it. What are the choices for "Authentication"? You show it is set to Basic, but I don't know what it means in that program. Does it include Help to tell you what are the available choices for Authentication? IIRR, they were Basic, something like (but not) W95 (that TalkTalk's page said not to use), and OAuth2. I appreciate the effort you've put into explaining, but a lot of it seems to be the wrong way round: our situation is that Eudora - the ancient client - IS WORKING, but Pandora - the new one we're trying to switch to, for a bit of future-proofing - ISN'T. (For sending. It's receiving fine.) If you haven't paid for it, perhaps "Demo-Mode" does not include sending. No, apparently the main difference is that the free one only allows one "Personality". Also, it says it is using the OpenSSL library, but doesn't mention which version. As I recall, OpenSSL had to get updated due to security issues probably related to using old or deprecated ciphers. Other than mentioning it uses OpenSSL, it gives to accredidation to OpenSSL or mention which version it incorporates. As OpenSSL gets updated, so should also the software that incorporates it. The only mention of OpenSSL in Pandora's release notes is way back to Pandora 1.0.1 (no datestamp, but suspect that was a long time ago). Note: The datestamp at the end of the Release History web page is for when the content got updated, not the datestamp of any particular version of the Pandora program. Yes - isn't it irritating when they do that (-:! [] And what happens when you chose to /not/ use StartTLS (and establish a non-encrypted connection to the mail servers)? I _believe_ TalkTalk still support non-encrypted access. So Eudora - which is working - is definitely not using it, so therefore TalkTalk don't require it. Pandora was written later (or copied from Eudora code). That Eudora is not using OAUTH2 doesn't mean that Pandora is also not using OAUTH2. It has it as an option. Does Eudora have a StartTLS (try to use TLS) option, or is it missing in Eudora? You show Pandora is configured to try using TLS. Sorry, without a list of Authentication choices, I don't know what Basic might be when compared to the other choices. Yes, Eudora has a setting "if available" or something like that, which is what J was using. What happens when you configure Pandora Mail to /not/ use TLS? Does TalkTalk allow non-encrypted connections to its mail servers? Some now I _think_ they still do. demand an encrypted connection. ... Sorry for the late reply. The only "Pandora" that I know of is the Julia has got it working - I'm afraid I don't know how. She did tell me she'd reinstalled it, though I don't think there was any corruption in her earlier install - but maybe the reinstallation reset some setting. music streaming service (pandora.com). After a search, I found: https://www.drivehq.com/web/brana/pandora.htm Brana is certainly the developer's name. Pandora is not the same as Pandora Mail. Yep, confusing naming and possibly copyright infringement, especially since users will likely shorten Pandora Mail to just Pandora. When I look at drivehq's home page, I don't see anything of them doing e-mail services. From their Software page, their software is oriented to their file storage services, plus they offer software from other 3rd parties (e.g., Filezilla). An e-mail client seems a complete departure from what services and other software they provide. Makes me wonder where they stole, er, acquired the code. From what I found, "Pandora Mail, an e-mail client intended to replicate the functionality of Eudora", but no mention if that was for the classic version or the Thunderbird fork. Wonder how much of the original code was borrowed. From a different page, I'm pretty sure the classic version. The Thunderbird one was an interesting idea, but abandoned, and the version of TB it was based on is now very old (single digit). It is a shareware program. Did you pay ($14) to uncripple it? Julia tells me she has bought it, though the title bar during this afternoon's TeamViewer session implied she was still using a free version. "Pandora Mail is a shareware program. This means that you can use it with the limited set of features for free (Demo-Mode), or register the program and gain the access to the full set of features (Full-Mode)." I didn't see a free-vs-paid web page delineating just what is "limited" in the free version. The Pandora subsite at drivehq.com site has a forum link pointing to: https://pandoramail.forumotion.net/ Your error message says "Authentication failed". Have you tried using TalkTalk's webmail client to make sure you can send using your account with their webmail client? Copy the username and password fields from Pandora to login using TalkTalk's webmail client. That would eliminate any accidental inclusion of space characters that aren't shown to you. She was using Eudora no problem. She assured me the PW and U were correct. Did you yet test with your anti-virus software /not/ intercepting and interrogating your e-mail traffic? In your AV, configure it to /not/ interrogate your e-mail traffic. That the AV may not interrogate Eudora's e-mail traffic does not mandate it isn't interrogating e-mail traffic for Pandora Mail. Just discard the superfluous e-mail scanner in whatever AV is used. Well, she's got it working, so I doubt that was it. (Sorry if some of my answers are woolly - remember this is a blind user over 300 miles from me, accessed via TeamViewer, whom I can't visit due to CoViD at the moment; since she _has_ somehow got it working, I'm going to leave well alone until I _can_ visit them, which hopefully will be the case in the summer.) -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf [What's your guilty pleasure?] Why should you feel guilty about pleasure? - Michel Roux Jr in Radio Times 2-8 February 2013 |
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