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#16
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Best Win 8 Start Button replacement program?
On 5/9/13 8:19 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Ken Springer wrote: On 5/8/13 7:05 AM, mechanic wrote: Fair enough, why abandon a new idea simply because some people have problems coping with it. Change happens - get over it. I think it's representative of more than just a new idea and coping. 1. To me, it sounds like MS is saying "We don't care what our customers want, especially the existing ones, you're going to do it our way. Period." It has always been pretty much that way with MS. ____________ 2. New ideas are great, but there should be a route that provides easy transitions. Tablet and cell phone users are more used to the touchscreen interface. Desktop users are not. The question I have is, why didn't they set the install routines for desktop systems to boot into a traditional interface, with the ability to easily switch between the interfaces? They seem to be somewhat arrogant in believing everyone will just know how to do it. Indeed. And why dump useful things like the ability to have multiple taskbars? The ability to set varying type sizes and styles for various things? Just asking, would you define multiple taskbars as you would use them? As well as varying type styles and sizes? Always curious how others use their computers. Maybe I'll learn of something that I want to do, but hadn't thought of. And speaking of switching, why force everyone into a multi-user environment from XP on? The *ability* to use it with multiple users is fine but there are scads of people with computers that are never touched by others...why obfuscate things for them with "administration rights", "default user", etc.? I don't think you are "forced" to use it, it's just the default provided by the manufacturer, isn't it? And you can turn it off. OS X also has multi-user options, and some Mac users use those in the same way some people do it in Windows. An Administrator account for configuring, software install, etc., and a User account for daily use. I've just read Paul's reply, and I agree. In a corporate type environment, preventing the user from installing programs and general mucking around makes their jobs a lot easier. Plus activating the Guest account. These days, when I refurb a computer to be given away, I create the three accounts, and include paperwork as to why, and how to use them to protect the system installation as best as they can. ___________ 3. One thing that might have helped out of the gate is if they had made the tile that gets to the desktop stand out visually. It wouldn't have to be a different size, just an obviously different design/style, so the new user's eye is drawn immediately to that tile, with larger letters saying "Desktop, press here", or similar. My Win8 experience is short, bought a laptop with it three days ago, but I now boot to the desktop, have the start button back, an opaque taskbar, etc. IOW, it now looks/functions much like XP. In my VM, I plan on making those kinds of tweaks staying 100% within what Win 8 will allow. But, on the physical computer, I'll be installing the 3rd party tweaks that I want, and (hopefully) ending up with something more to my liking. ______________ 5. The question of increased computer security from the "bad guys" is always mentioned as a sound reason for upgrading. Agreed. But what prevented them from simply maintaining an XP looking interface for consistency, making transitions easier? Exactly!. Or at least, a choice between the two. And speaking of security, MS has been messing with OSs for 30 years. AFAIK they have never gotten a secure one. What they have gotten is *BIG* ones. The win8 folder on my new laptop is 16GB; a pristine WinXP folder on my PC is about 1GB; a well used WinXP folder on the PC is 2GB. How did they manage to add 15GB fromXP to 8 and what is it?? Personally, I don't think it's possible to have a "secure" OS, just more secure than others. The "bad" guys will always be one step ahead. So, you do the best you can do. And the more complicated the OS, the easier to hack. Just seems an obvious fact to me. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.3 Firefox 20.0 Thunderbird 17.0.5 LibreOffice 4.0.1.2 |
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#17
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Best Win 8 Start Button replacement program?
On Thu, 09 May 2013 22:05:10 +0800, xfile wrote:
Fair enough, why abandon a new idea simply because some people have problems coping with it. Change happens - get over it. Because the new idea produces no tangible benefits and only idiots will accept changes for the sake of changes. So, as the MSFT designers are certainly not idiots, did it not cross your mind that there might be good reasons for the change? Of course not, you would rather just come out with these clueless remarks. No you are too frightened of change to give a new idea a fair trial. |
#18
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Best Win 8 Start Button replacement program?
On 5/9/13 10:19 AM, mechanic wrote:
On Thu, 09 May 2013 22:05:10 +0800, xfile wrote: Fair enough, why abandon a new idea simply because some people have problems coping with it. Change happens - get over it. Because the new idea produces no tangible benefits and only idiots will accept changes for the sake of changes. So, as the MSFT designers are certainly not idiots, did it not cross your mind that there might be good reasons for the change? Of course not, you would rather just come out with these clueless remarks. No you are too frightened of change to give a new idea a fair trial. Idiots, no. Out of touch? I think so. I don't think they are in a world where they get any real feedback from the average user. In fact, some may be so intelligent they simply can't communicate with, and understand, the average user. I saw this in High School, where those that had no problem making straight A's simply couldn't talk to the C and D classmates. If you wish, tell us what you think about the Metro UI, and why it's good? You already know what I think of the basic idea for the time being. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.3 Firefox 20.0 Thunderbird 17.0.5 LibreOffice 4.0.1.2 |
#19
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Best Win 8 Start Button replacement program?
On Thu, 09 May 2013 22:07:49 +0800, xfile wrote:
On 5/9/2013 15:02, ...winston wrote: Hearing it from the horse's mouth might be better than interpreting what someone thought the horse said. Tami Reller (CFO-Microsoft and Windows) http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2013/05/06/windows-8-at-6-months-q-amp-a-with-tami-reller.aspx Julie Larsen-Green (Corporate VP, Chief Engineer Windows Client ¡V all software and hardware) http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2013/05/07/julie-larson-green-at-the-wired-business-conference.aspx Julie¡¦s May 7, 2013 Interview (Video @ Wired Business Conference 2013) http://fora.tv/2013/05/07/Windows_VP_Julie_Larson-Green_Starting_Over_with_Windows Of importance: - at this time any illusion to the return of the Start Button (the Orb) does not mean the Start Menu (***pay close attention around 17:20 in the video*** g) - Julie previously was in charge of Office (aka the person responsible for the ¡¥Ribbon¡¦ approach) - any ¡¥fixes¡¦ for a later *8* (as shipped) include all fixes already deployed via Windows Update (program and security) and for apps via the Windows Store. Updates for the apps via the Store include both Program (Fixes, Features, Versions) and Security Updates. Never lose sight that no matter the o/s.....mobility is the primary market focus (i.e. in MSFT case - all devices capable of currently running Windows 8 --while desktop pcs are part of the focus but less significant than in the past) All your information are exclusively from --- Microsoft? How sad!!! Maybe not so much sad as giving you (or at least thoughtful people) a chance to see what Microsoft people are thinking. Note the first line in ...winston's post: "Hearing it from the horse's mouth might be better than interpreting what someone thought the horse said." -- Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch) |
#20
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Best Win 8 Start Button replacement program?
Gene E. Bloch posted this via
: On Thu, 09 May 2013 22:07:49 +0800, xfile wrote: On 5/9/2013 15:02, ...winston wrote: Hearing it from the horse's mouth might be better than interpreting what someone thought the horse said. Tami Reller (CFO-Microsoft and Windows) http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/b...ve/2013/05/06/ windows-8-at-6-months-q-amp-a-with-tami-reller.aspx Julie Larsen-Green (Corporate VP, Chief Engineer Windows Client ¡V all software and hardware) http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/b...ve/2013/05/07/ julie-larson-green-at-the-wired-business-conference.aspx Julie¡¦s May 7, 2013 Interview (Video @ Wired Business Conference 2013) http://fora.tv/2013/05/07/Windows_VP...Starting_Over_ with_Windows Of importance: - at this time any illusion to the return of the Start Button (the Orb) does not mean the Start Menu (***pay close attention around 17:20 in the video*** g) - Julie previously was in charge of Office (aka the person responsible for the ¡¥Ribbon¡¦ approach) - any ¡¥fixes¡¦ for a later *8* (as shipped) include all fixes already deployed via Windows Update (program and security) and for apps via the Windows Store. Updates for the apps via the Store include both Program (Fixes, Features, Versions) and Security Updates. Never lose sight that no matter the o/s.....mobility is the primary market focus (i.e. in MSFT case - all devices capable of currently running Windows 8 --while desktop pcs are part of the focus but less significant than in the past) All your information are exclusively from --- Microsoft? How sad!!! Maybe not so much sad as giving you (or at least thoughtful people) a chance to see what Microsoft people are thinking. Note the first line in ...winston's post: "Hearing it from the horse's mouth might be better than interpreting what someone thought the horse said." 'Mr. Ed' reruns are not always accurate these days. But "history repeats itself" is a hard adage to ignore. On the other hand, if someone had a psychic horse who could channel Melinda Gates, they might get some inside trader tips if Bill Gates talks in his sleep... Unless he talks in Java, then of course, you'd need a wireless file conversion app for your X-box. My FordSync is powered by Microsoft, and even it cannot pair with a horse unless it's a Trojan Horse, and then people had better listen up to what the horse is talking about because according to the Bible, End Times will have 4 horses and these horses are not messing around. HTH. -- I AM Bucky Breeder, (*(^; and noooooo.... that is NOT a Tomahawk armed Predator drone in my pocket; but, I'm not particularly "happy" to see you either. |
#21
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Best Win 8 Start Button replacement program?
Ken Springer wrote:
On 5/9/13 8:19 AM, dadiOH wrote: Indeed. And why dump useful things like the ability to have multiple taskbars? The ability to set varying type sizes and styles for various things? Just asking, would you define multiple taskbars as you would use them? As well as varying type styles and sizes? Always curious how others use their computers. Maybe I'll learn of something that I want to do, but hadn't thought of. I'm quite sure you already know but I mean a taskbar - sans Start button - somewhere other than where the system one is. I have the system taskbar at the left, non-system ones at right and bottom. On each of them I have various catagorized toolbars. For example, on the right taskbar I have these toolbars... Audio-Visual Reference Finance And a couple of others. Each of them is further catagorized. For example, The Reference toolbar contains... Atlas & Maps Manuals & Guides Parts & Supplies et al Each of those is/can be further catagorized. In Manuals & Guides... Auto Computer Construction & Woodworking Electronics - Cameras, TV, etc. House & Home __________________ As to varying type styles and sizes, I mean (in XP) the Advanced button on the Appearance tab of Display Properties. Using the things in the "Item" drop box there lets one change the font/size etc of various things; not all but some. And some is better than Win8 does. ___________________ And speaking of switching, why force everyone into a multi-user environment from XP on? The *ability* to use it with multiple users is fine but there are scads of people with computers that are never touched by others...why obfuscate things for them with "administration rights", "default user", etc.? I don't think you are "forced" to use it, it's just the default provided by the manufacturer, isn't it? And you can turn it off. If there is a way to turn it off I've never found it. Is there? _________________ .. Personally, I don't think it's possible to have a "secure" OS, just more secure than others. The "bad" guys will always be one step ahead. So, you do the best you can do. And the more complicated the OS, the easier to hack. Just seems an obvious fact to me. Seems reasonable. In that case, Win8 is the equivalent of a home invasion by a *GANG* of thugs -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
#22
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Best Win 8 Start Button replacement program?
"Ken Springer" wrote in message ... On 5/9/13 8:19 AM, dadiOH wrote: And speaking of switching, why force everyone into a multi-user environment from XP on? The *ability* to use it with multiple users is fine but there are scads of people with computers that are never touched by others...why obfuscate things for them with "administration rights", "default user", etc.? I don't think you are "forced" to use it, it's just the default provided by the manufacturer, isn't it? And you can turn it off. To add... In Win8 the first user is required to be an admin account. Only admin accounts can create other accounts (MSFT or Local). - additional accounts created by an admin account are always privileged as Standard user accounts - An admin account is necessary to change an account type (Standard to Administrator or vice versa) - If the user account is originally an administrator account, then Windows 8 will not let you change it to be a Standard account unless there is another administrator account already created other than the one currently being used attempting to change an account. The first user admin account does not have to be used as the primary account but it can't be turned off. -- ....winston msft mvp consumer apps |
#23
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Best Win 8 Start Button replacement program?
"xfile" wrote in message ... On 5/9/2013 15:02, ...winston wrote: Hearing it from the horse's mouth might be better than interpreting what someone thought the horse said. Julie’s May 7, 2013 Interview (Video @ Wired Business Conference 2013) http://fora.tv/2013/05/07/Windows_VP_Julie_Larson-Green_Starting_Over_with_Windows Of importance: - at this time any illusion to the return of the Start Button (the Orb) does not mean the Start Menu (***pay close attention around 17:20 in the video*** g) All your information are exclusively from --- Microsoft? How sad!!! The person holding the *horse's* reigns ultimately decides which direction the horse runs. As previously noted...a Start Button does not necessarily indicate a Win7 type Start Menu. -- ....winston msft mvp consumer apps |
#24
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Best Win 8 Start Button replacement program?
On 5/9/13 12:54 PM, dadiOH wrote:
Ken Springer wrote: On 5/9/13 8:19 AM, dadiOH wrote: Indeed. And why dump useful things like the ability to have multiple taskbars? The ability to set varying type sizes and styles for various things? Just asking, would you define multiple taskbars as you would use them? As well as varying type styles and sizes? Always curious how others use their computers. Maybe I'll learn of something that I want to do, but hadn't thought of. I'm quite sure you already know but I mean a taskbar - sans Start button - somewhere other than where the system one is. I have the system taskbar at the left, non-system ones at right and bottom. On each of them I have various catagorized toolbars. For example, on the right taskbar I have these toolbars... Audio-Visual Reference Finance And a couple of others. Each of them is further catagorized. For example, The Reference toolbar contains... Atlas & Maps Manuals & Guides Parts & Supplies et al Each of those is/can be further catagorized. In Manuals & Guides... Auto Computer Construction & Woodworking Electronics - Cameras, TV, etc. House & Home Well, I'll be... I didn't know you could have multiple taskbars. :-) Know of a good web tutorial somewhere about this? I've got some inlaws and a friend that have so much crap on their desktops this might be of interest to them. But then, can I talk them into changing... grin I've got to understand more how multiple taskbars work. It almost sounds like you use it the way I expected Libraries to work, but don't. Found a workaround, though, the was totally unimpressed with the Libraries functions/feature. __________________ As to varying type styles and sizes, I mean (in XP) the Advanced button on the Appearance tab of Display Properties. Using the things in the "Item" drop box there lets one change the font/size etc of various things; not all but some. And some is better than Win8 does. This really sucks! Sure doesn't make me a happy camper, either. :-( Right now, I have Win8 in a VM, so some things don't work. And I expect that. I did a quick search, found out you can change desktop icon spacing by making changes in the Registry. Something else I don't like to touch. I wonder if any of the replacement utilities for Win8 to add the Start Menu and other such things add the missing features back... ___________________ And speaking of switching, why force everyone into a multi-user environment from XP on? The *ability* to use it with multiple users is fine but there are scads of people with computers that are never touched by others...why obfuscate things for them with "administration rights", "default user", etc.? I don't think you are "forced" to use it, it's just the default provided by the manufacturer, isn't it? And you can turn it off. If there is a way to turn it off I've never found it. Is there? Is this what you are looking for? The auto-login feature? I just tried it in my Win 8 VM and it worked. http://xtendedview.com/computer/wind...windows-8/645/ _________________ . Personally, I don't think it's possible to have a "secure" OS, just more secure than others. The "bad" guys will always be one step ahead. So, you do the best you can do. And the more complicated the OS, the easier to hack. Just seems an obvious fact to me. Seems reasonable. In that case, Win8 is the equivalent of a home invasion by a *GANG* of thugs -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.3 Firefox 20.0 Thunderbird 17.0.5 LibreOffice 4.0.1.2 |
#25
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Best Win 8 Start Button replacement program?
"dadiOH" wrote:
Ken Springer wrote: On 5/8/13 7:05 AM, mechanic wrote: Fair enough, why abandon a new idea simply because some people have problems coping with it. Change happens - get over it. I think it's representative of more than just a new idea and coping. 1. To me, it sounds like MS is saying "We don't care what our customers want, especially the existing ones, you're going to do it our way. Period." It has always been pretty much that way with MS. ....and to me one of the bigger mysteries is what reaction Microsoft expected from server administrators. Server 2012 has the same "smartphone on steroids" Start Screen as does Windows 8. Has anyone ever seen a production server in a corporate environment that had a touchscreen? And speaking of switching, why force everyone into a multi-user environment from XP on? The *ability* to use it with multiple users is fine but there are scads of people with computers that are never touched by others...why obfuscate things for them with "administration rights", "default user", etc.? On that last, someone will probably post the response before I do, but the answer is "security against attacks." Granted, the introduction of UAC in Vista was badly handled, but having a way to block malware from taking advantage of a user's authority to modify the system significantly reduces the attack surface. My Win8 experience is short, bought a laptop with it three days ago, but I now boot to the desktop, have the start button back, an opaque taskbar, etc. IOW, it now looks/functions much like XP. FWIW Walt Mossberg's technology column in yesterday's _Wall Street Journal_ had favorable reviews of couple of START button restoration programs (Start8 and Pokki). The column can be found at www.wsj.com; click the "Tech" link in the header, then in the upper right corner click on "An Old Start to a New Windows". 5. The question of increased computer security from the "bad guys" is always mentioned as a sound reason for upgrading. Agreed. But what prevented them from simply maintaining an XP looking interface for consistency, making transitions easier? Arrogance, and a disinclination to find out what users want and/or need. My poster-child example of this goes back to MS-DOS 5: if its setup program found an OS/2 file on the user's disk it displayed a screen offering to "upgrade your system from OS/2 to MS-DOS". One nice thing about it: I got a laugh from the audience (PC users at my POE) when I showed it as part of an introduction to the new MS-DOS version. And speaking of security, MS has been messing with OSs for 30 years. AFAIK they have never gotten a secure one. What they have gotten is *BIG* ones. The win8 folder on my new laptop is 16GB; a pristine WinXP folder on my PC is about 1GB; a well used WinXP folder on the PC is 2GB. How did they manage to add 15GB fromXP to 8 and what is it?? Part of the difference is that beginning with Vista you get what amounts to (almost) all of the distribution disk contents loaded onto the C-disk at setup time, makeing it (usually) unnecessary to dig out the distribution disk when you want to add a feature. You could get similar convenience in XP by copying the \I386 folder from the distribution CD to your C-disk. I say "almost" and "usually" because not everything gets copied. One singularly silly example is fallout from the decision not to include .NET 3.5 in the default configuration. You can install it after setup is complete, using either the add/remove features dialog or the DISM command, but either way you have to point the installer to the distribution disk. Adding insult to injury, if you didn't point to the proper folder on the DVD the system will churn away for several minutes before announcing that it can't install .NET 3.5 . Schtoopid...but dumb. Joe |
#26
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Best Win 8 Start Button replacement program?
Ken Springer wrote:
Well, I'll be... I didn't know you could have multiple taskbars. :-) Know of a good web tutorial somewhere about this? I'm sure there must be but if Google doesn't turn one up my ancient "dadiOH's Dandies" has a section in it titled "Taskbars & Toolbars" that explains it more fully. You can get it at.. http://mysite.verizon.net/xico It is an old fashioned Help file so has to be downloaded. Come to think of it, it is also available at a web site (not mine) in HTML... http://www.shareup.com/dadioh/taskbars-toolbars.html ______________ I wonder if any of the replacement utilities for Win8 to add the Start Menu and other such things add the missing features back... Yes, to some extent. I used Classic Shell http://www.classicshell.net/ ______________ Is this what you are looking for? The auto-login feature? I just tried it in my Win 8 VM and it worked. Thanks but I have NP logging in automatically. What bugs me is the (in my case) unnecessary duplication of folders for each user (even if it is only one). -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
#27
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Best Win 8 Start Button replacement program?
dadiOH wrote:
Ken Springer wrote: Well, I'll be... I didn't know you could have multiple taskbars. :-) Know of a good web tutorial somewhere about this? I'm sure there must be but if Google doesn't turn one up my ancient "dadiOH's Dandies" has a section in it titled "Taskbars & Toolbars" that explains it more fully. You can get it at.. http://mysite.verizon.net/xico It is an old fashioned Help file so has to be downloaded. Come to think of it, it is also available at a web site (not mine) in HTML... http://www.shareup.com/dadioh/taskbars-toolbars.html One caveat: everything in it was written 10-12 years ago when I was using Win98. It is valid for XP too. NOT for Win8, probably not for Win7 or Vista either. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
#28
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Best Win 8 Start Button replacement program?
"Joe Morris" wrote in message ...
....and to me one of the bigger mysteries is what reaction Microsoft expected from server administrators. Server 2012 has the same "smartphone on steroids" Start Screen as does Windows 8. The Server 2012 Start Screen actually is more problematic for IT personnel managing Win8. - The typical Win8 Modern UI Start Screen iirc is stripped down for Server 2012 requiring one to access the All Apps screen for installed programs and applications - Accessing the Start Screen if it hasn't been changed is via the Charms bar *Start* icon rather than loading the UI after startup - Optionally, Server 2012 unlike Win8 can boot directly to the desktop by changing the value of one single registry key 'ClientExperienceEnabled' to 0 (zero) after changing 'Owner permission' from Trusted Installer to Administrators and giving it Full Control - ClientExperienceEnabled is located in: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Server - Also 2012 isn't configured out of the box to provide the same Win8 *experience* necessitating one to *Add roles and features* via the Server Manager i.e. Server 2012 requires more behavioral changes from previous Server clients than one jumping from WinXP-Vista-7 to Win8 with it being incumbent on the Server 12 admin to tweak it 'more or less' than Win8 RTM. -- ....winston msft mvp consumer apps |
#29
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Best Win 8 Start Button replacement program?
"Bucky Breeder" wrote in message... 'Mr. Ed' reruns are not always accurate these days. But "history repeats itself" is a hard adage to ignore. On the other hand, if someone had a psychic horse who could channel Melinda Gates, they might get some inside trader tips if Bill Gates talks in his sleep... Unless he talks in Java, then of course, you'd need a wireless file conversion app for your X-box. My FordSync is powered by Microsoft, and even it cannot pair with a horse unless it's a Trojan Horse, and then people had better listen up to what the horse is talking about because according to the Bible, End Times will have 4 horses and these horses are not messing around. Cute. No matter the era of the past....today, most nntp people recognize a distinct scent emanating from the horse's other end. g -- ....winston msft mvp consumer apps |
#30
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Best Win 8 Start Button replacement program?
On 5/10/2013 03:17, ...winston wrote:
"xfile" wrote in message ... On 5/9/2013 15:02, ...winston wrote: Hearing it from the horse's mouth might be better than interpreting what someone thought the horse said. Julie’s May 7, 2013 Interview (Video @ Wired Business Conference 2013) http://fora.tv/2013/05/07/Windows_VP_Julie_Larson-Green_Starting_Over_with_Windows Of importance: - at this time any illusion to the return of the Start Button (the Orb) does not mean the Start Menu (***pay close attention around 17:20 in the video*** g) All your information are exclusively from --- Microsoft? How sad!!! The person holding the *horse's* reigns ultimately decides which direction the horse runs. As previously noted...a Start Button does not necessarily indicate a Win7 type Start Menu. As previously noted...a Start Button does not necessarily indicate a Win7 type Start Menu. Whether it's Win7 type is irrelevant and it's not the point, and the main point is that the primary mission of an operating system in *the business sector* is to serve as a stable "platform" for applications run on it, and within the primary mission, the UI design is to minimize, if not totally eliminate, user confusion and learning curve so they could quickly access to data and applications to complete their tasks. If the primary mission is failed, everything else is just BS. Win7 style or not, it's their job to accomplish the above mission to get paid (by licensing). In the consumer sector, there is no hard rules because everything can be subjective and base on personal preferences. Microsoft, as an OEM software development company, miscalculated and forgot their role, again, and tried to mix the two distinctive segments together with one half-baked product. They are the last one qualified to tell business how and if they need to deploy resources for any stupid changes not to mention that it's for their own interests. In the business sector, Microsoft is just an OEM company and they are OK if they just follow orders to do their work. |
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