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#1
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Keyboard problem
Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver. Buy a
different one? Ay ideas making this one work? The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick worse. TIA -- I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook. |
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#2
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Keyboard problem
In message , KenK
writes: Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver. Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work? The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick worse. TIA What's special about this "Ideas in Motion" keyboard - multimedia (or other extra) keys? Is it PS/2 or USB? Is it wireless? Does it work as a basic keyboard (i. e. the normal keys), with just the special keys not working, or does it not work at all? -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf You can believe it if it helps you to sleep. - Quoted by Tom Lehrer (on religion, in passing), April 2013. |
#3
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Keyboard problem
On 06/12/2017 18:07, KenK wrote:
Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver. Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work? The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick worse. TIA Please go and buy a new keyboard and stop wasting time trying to fix it. You will find $10 spent on a new KB is worth it. Good luck and keep us posted. -- With over 600 million devices now running Windows 10, customer satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows. |
#4
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Keyboard problem
KenK wrote:
Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver. Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work? The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick worse. TIA A keyboard should declare itself as a HID device in the Plug and Play information it presents. This causes the in-box HID driver to be used. The OS has HID keyboard and HID mouse drivers. That means *every* keyboard, whether PS/2 or USB, works out of the box. At least, as long as they align with some standards for such things. There are occasional problems (like I think Win10 botched something with regard to keyboards at some point). Exceptions include bindings for "multimedia keys". If a keyboard has those (the keyboard I'm typing on right now does), the driver for those keys is separate. I don't have that driver installed, and the "basic" keyboard matrix is working just fine. And a lot of HID notions work like that. For example, on a mouse, the three standard buttons are recognized by the OS. However, if you have additional "side" buttons on a mouse, those need a separate driver (as such buttons are then considered "custom" and an added driver is a filter driver and detects the "unknown" codes). The multimedia buttons on my keyboard, aren't keyboard keys, they're "gum" buttons, dome style, labeled Volume- Volume+ Internet Email Search Mute The separate software controls the binding between the button and some command. And the separate software is needed, because they're not ordinary letters, and they're not Fkeys either. Keyboards come in a couple standard matrix sizes, which is why the in-box driver can work with them. To reduce the pin count on the keyboard chips, the chip uses a 7x17 switch closure matrix. There are 24 pins, one set of pins sends signals, the other set of pins listens for them. And that gives the possibility of 109 keys. As an example. There is at least a matrix for standard sized keyboards, as well as compact (no F-key keyboards). There are web pages with more details (too complicated for me to even begin to repeat...). When you have an electronics failure in a keyboard, a "group" of keys fail, and that "group" of keys corresponds to the wiring of the 7x17 matrix. So you find maybe 7 keys failing at the same time, that sort of thing. And that means some aspect of one of the wires is "jammed". ******* I can't find a URL for your keyboard, so cannot determine whether there is anything unique or non-standard about it or not. And keyboards and mice work in parallel, so you are allowed to have two or more keyboards plugged in at the same time. As long as there are physical ports for them of course. You can even have a PS/2 keyboard and a USB keyboard at the same time. The only trouble-maker, is Windows 10, which has some crazy notions of "first-detected" devices, that varies with Windows 10 release number. On modern computers, some PS/2 connectors come with "bi-colors". There are sufficient pins on the miniDIN connector in such cases, to support two electrical interfaces. If a device doesn't work when plugged into such a thing, then you have to track down the details of whether the design requires some sort of adapter or not (if you want to use both interfaces at the same time or not). The keyboard uses 1,3,4,5. If a Y adapter is used, it wires 2 from the computer to 1 on the mouse. And it wires 6 on the computer, to 5 on the mouse. The keyboard works by default when plugged into the computer, but the mouse would only work if connected via the Y adapter. And there are some variants on this, as there also seem to be cases where it's "dual personality", and either device works when plugged in, without an adapter, and it's just the Y cabling and two device usage that isn't supported. This diagram shows the six pin connector, has enough pins to drive a mouse and keyboard at the same time. Pin 1 Data_keyboard Pin 2 (Data_mouse on bicolor) Pin 3 GND Pin 4 VCC+5 Pin 5 Clock_keyboard Pin 6 (Clock_mouse on bicolor) The ascii art diagram for the multiplexed bi-color connector looks like this. http://www.burtonsys.com/PS2_keyboar...r_pinouts.html Computer (M) Keyboard (F) -- End Of Y -- Mouse (F) ------------ ------------ ------------ pin function pin function pin function 1=data ---------- 1=data +--- 1=data 2 n.c. 2 -----------+ 2 n.c. 3=gnd ----------- 3=gnd ----------- 3=gnd 4=+5v ----------- 4=+5v ----------- 4=+5v 5=clock --------- 5=clock +------ 5=clock 6 n.c. 6 --------+ 6 n.c. HTH, Paul |
#5
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Keyboard problem
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in
: In message , KenK writes: Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver. Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work? The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick worse. TIA What's special about this "Ideas in Motion" keyboard - multimedia (or other extra) keys? Don't remember. I bought it a year or so ago. Likely just cheap. Is it PS/2 or USB? USB Is it wireless? No Does it work as a basic keyboard (i. e. the normal keys), with just the special keys not working, or does it not work at all? I just tried the regular keys. Didn't work at all. -- I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook. |
#6
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Keyboard problem
Good Guy wrote in
news On 06/12/2017 18:07, KenK wrote: Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver. Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work? The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick worse. TIA Please go and buy a new keyboard and stop wasting time trying to fix it. You will find $10 spent on a new KB is worth it. Good luck and keep us posted. Qestion is what to look for. New one I bought should have worked. -- I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook. |
#7
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Keyboard problem
On 07/12/2017 13:54, KenK wrote:
Qestion is what to look for. New one I bought should have worked. for an XP machine, you need a very basic keyboard because you are not likely to get new drivers for XP machine but generic Microsoft drivers will always work. So buy a basic USB keyboard and your problem is solved overnight. Mr thinks so anyway. -- With over 600 million devices now running Windows 10, customer satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows. |
#8
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Keyboard problem
KenK wrote:
Good Guy wrote in news On 06/12/2017 18:07, KenK wrote: Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver. Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work? The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick worse. TIA Please go and buy a new keyboard and stop wasting time trying to fix it. You will find $10 spent on a new KB is worth it. Good luck and keep us posted. Qestion is what to look for. New one I bought should have worked. Since it's USB, use the USB Device Tree Viewer to example the keyboard you just plugged in. The downloads are near the bottom of the page. http://www.uwe-sieber.de/usbtreeview_e.html It should declare itself as a HID. If it doesn't cause "Endpoints" to form, then the system cannot talk to it. Paul |
#9
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Keyboard problem
Paul wrote in news
KenK wrote: Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver. Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work? The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick worse. TIA A keyboard should declare itself as a HID device in the Plug and Play information it presents. This causes the in-box HID driver to be used. The OS has HID keyboard and HID mouse drivers. That means *every* keyboard, whether PS/2 or USB, works out of the box. At least, as long as they align with some standards for such things. There are occasional problems (like I think Win10 botched something with regard to keyboards at some point). Exceptions include bindings for "multimedia keys". If a keyboard has those (the keyboard I'm typing on right now does), the driver for those keys is separate. I don't have that driver installed, and the "basic" keyboard matrix is working just fine. Nope, this one is normal. And a lot of HID notions work like that. For example, on a mouse, the three standard buttons are recognized by the OS. However, if you have additional "side" buttons on a mouse, those need a separate driver (as such buttons are then considered "custom" and an added driver is a filter driver and detects the "unknown" codes). The multimedia buttons on my keyboard, aren't keyboard keys, they're "gum" buttons, dome style, labeled Volume- Volume+ Internet Email Search Mute The separate software controls the binding between the button and some command. And the separate software is needed, because they're not ordinary letters, and they're not Fkeys either. Keyboards come in a couple standard matrix sizes, which is why the in-box driver can work with them. To reduce the pin count on the keyboard chips, the chip uses a 7x17 switch closure matrix. There are 24 pins, one set of pins sends signals, the other set of pins listens for them. And that gives the possibility of 109 keys. As an example. There is at least a matrix for standard sized keyboards, as well as compact (no F-key keyboards). There are web pages with more details (too complicated for me to even begin to repeat...). When you have an electronics failure in a keyboard, a "group" of keys fail, and that "group" of keys corresponds to the wiring of the 7x17 matrix. So you find maybe 7 keys failing at the same time, that sort of thing. And that means some aspect of one of the wires is "jammed". ******* I can't find a URL for your keyboard, so cannot determine whether there is anything unique or non-standard about it or not. And keyboards and mice work in parallel, so you are allowed to have two or more keyboards plugged in at the same time. As long as there are physical ports for them of course. You can even have a PS/2 keyboard and a USB keyboard at the same time. The only trouble-maker, is Windows 10, which has some crazy notions of "first-detected" devices, that varies with Windows 10 release number. On modern computers, some PS/2 connectors come with "bi-colors". There are sufficient pins on the miniDIN connector in such cases, to support two electrical interfaces. If a device doesn't work when plugged into such a thing, then you have to track down the details of whether the design requires some sort of adapter or not (if you want to use both interfaces at the same time or not). The keyboard uses 1,3,4,5. If a Y adapter is used, it wires 2 from the computer to 1 on the mouse. And it wires 6 on the computer, to 5 on the mouse. The keyboard works by default when plugged into the computer, but the mouse would only work if connected via the Y adapter. And there are some variants on this, as there also seem to be cases where it's "dual personality", and either device works when plugged in, without an adapter, and it's just the Y cabling and two device usage that isn't supported. This diagram shows the six pin connector, has enough pins to drive a mouse and keyboard at the same time. Pin 1 Data_keyboard Pin 2 (Data_mouse on bicolor) Pin 3 GND Pin 4 VCC+5 Pin 5 Clock_keyboard Pin 6 (Clock_mouse on bicolor) The ascii art diagram for the multiplexed bi-color connector looks like this. http://www.burtonsys.com/PS2_keyboar...6_connector_pi nouts.html Computer (M) Keyboard (F) -- End Of Y -- Mouse (F) ------------ ------------ ------------ pin function pin function pin function 1=data ---------- 1=data +--- 1=data 2 n.c. 2 -----------+ 2 n.c. 3=gnd ----------- 3=gnd ----------- 3=gnd 4=+5v ----------- 4=+5v ----------- 4=+5v 5=clock --------- 5=clock +------ 5=clock 6 n.c. 6 --------+ 6 n.c. HTH, Paul Thanks. Found a couple of old PS/s (the new on is USB) with two old pre-XP systems (can't recall Win O/S name). My Emachine hsa PS/2 socket. I'll shut off and try one aftr I go off line this morning. Hope it works. This one is a royal pain to use. Have to press some keys VERY hard! -- I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook. |
#10
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Keyboard problem
KenK wrote in
: Paul wrote in news KenK wrote: Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver. Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work? The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick worse. TIA A keyboard should declare itself as a HID device in the Plug and Play information it presents. This causes the in-box HID driver to be used. The OS has HID keyboard and HID mouse drivers. That means *every* keyboard, whether PS/2 or USB, works out of the box. At least, as long as they align with some standards for such things. There are occasional problems (like I think Win10 botched something with regard to keyboards at some point). Exceptions include bindings for "multimedia keys". If a keyboard has those (the keyboard I'm typing on right now does), the driver for those keys is separate. I don't have that driver installed, and the "basic" keyboard matrix is working just fine. Nope, this one is normal. And a lot of HID notions work like that. For example, on a mouse, the three standard buttons are recognized by the OS. However, if you have additional "side" buttons on a mouse, those need a separate driver (as such buttons are then considered "custom" and an added driver is a filter driver and detects the "unknown" codes). The multimedia buttons on my keyboard, aren't keyboard keys, they're "gum" buttons, dome style, labeled Volume- Volume+ Internet Email Search Mute The separate software controls the binding between the button and some command. And the separate software is needed, because they're not ordinary letters, and they're not Fkeys either. Keyboards come in a couple standard matrix sizes, which is why the in-box driver can work with them. To reduce the pin count on the keyboard chips, the chip uses a 7x17 switch closure matrix. There are 24 pins, one set of pins sends signals, the other set of pins listens for them. And that gives the possibility of 109 keys. As an example. There is at least a matrix for standard sized keyboards, as well as compact (no F-key keyboards). There are web pages with more details (too complicated for me to even begin to repeat...). When you have an electronics failure in a keyboard, a "group" of keys fail, and that "group" of keys corresponds to the wiring of the 7x17 matrix. So you find maybe 7 keys failing at the same time, that sort of thing. And that means some aspect of one of the wires is "jammed". ******* I can't find a URL for your keyboard, so cannot determine whether there is anything unique or non-standard about it or not. And keyboards and mice work in parallel, so you are allowed to have two or more keyboards plugged in at the same time. As long as there are physical ports for them of course. You can even have a PS/2 keyboard and a USB keyboard at the same time. The only trouble-maker, is Windows 10, which has some crazy notions of "first-detected" devices, that varies with Windows 10 release number. On modern computers, some PS/2 connectors come with "bi-colors". There are sufficient pins on the miniDIN connector in such cases, to support two electrical interfaces. If a device doesn't work when plugged into such a thing, then you have to track down the details of whether the design requires some sort of adapter or not (if you want to use both interfaces at the same time or not). The keyboard uses 1,3,4,5. If a Y adapter is used, it wires 2 from the computer to 1 on the mouse. And it wires 6 on the computer, to 5 on the mouse. The keyboard works by default when plugged into the computer, but the mouse would only work if connected via the Y adapter. And there are some variants on this, as there also seem to be cases where it's "dual personality", and either device works when plugged in, without an adapter, and it's just the Y cabling and two device usage that isn't supported. This diagram shows the six pin connector, has enough pins to drive a mouse and keyboard at the same time. Pin 1 Data_keyboard Pin 2 (Data_mouse on bicolor) Pin 3 GND Pin 4 VCC+5 Pin 5 Clock_keyboard Pin 6 (Clock_mouse on bicolor) The ascii art diagram for the multiplexed bi-color connector looks like this. http://www.burtonsys.com/PS2_keyboar...-6_connector_p i nouts.html Computer (M) Keyboard (F) -- End Of Y -- Mouse (F) ------------ ------------ ------------ pin function pin function pin function 1=data ---------- 1=data +--- 1=data 2 n.c. 2 -----------+ 2 n.c. 3=gnd ----------- 3=gnd ----------- 3=gnd 4=+5v ----------- 4=+5v ----------- 4=+5v 5=clock --------- 5=clock +------ 5=clock 6 n.c. 6 --------+ 6 n.c. HTH, Paul Thanks. Found a couple of old PS/s (the new on is USB) with two old pre-XP systems (can't recall Win O/S name). My Emachine hsa PS/2 socket. I'll shut off and try one aftr I go off line this morning. Hope it works. This one is a royal pain to use. Have to press some keys VERY hard! Nope. Didn't work. System said no keyboard found when booting and mouse pointer was frozen when system started. sigh I was hoping... -- I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook. |
#11
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Keyboard problem
KenK wrote:
Nope. Didn't work. System said no keyboard found when booting and mouse pointer was frozen when system started. sigh I was hoping... OK, next question. Do any of these subsystems (PS/2 or USB) light up any LEDs ? Some of the cheaper motherboards, skimp on fuses for the +5V supply. A "good design" assigns one Polyfuse per two USB headers. A "good design" assigns a Polyfuse for the parallel (printer) port (+5V). And the PS/2 ports may have their own fuse too. However, some try to run the whole works, off one fuse. A traditional Polyfuse is green in color, and has a "notch" in the end of it. These examples might be rated for 1.4 amps (for two USB ports of 500mA each). The green-ness, and the notch, help them stand out when inspecting a PCB. http://i.imgur.com/GuxsJ.png ******* A Polyfuse is a polycrystalline device. The active material "melts" if too much current is drawn. When the power is off again, the material cools off and goes back to crystal form (where the crystal conducts electricity). This means that normally the fuse resets itself. There is nothing to replace (normally). You can check your ports with a multimeter, but this is difficult to do without some deal of care so you don't short something out while working on it. An easier check, is to check fpr +5V on either side of the fuse, while the keyboard is connected, proving the fuse is still closed. A USB device with a LED on it, like a USB reading lamp, a device that has no "USB state" but just draws power from VCC, is a good means to verify power is present. I suspect you may have a power problem, and the above is a hint about what to look for. A failed Polyfuse doesn't normally burn to a crisp, so you won't likely get a hint that way. You could ohm it out, with your multimeter, as it should have a decently low resistance across the terminals when cold. I'd do it with all power off on the PC, just to make the results more predictable. (There is a capacitor on the output side of the fuse, which provides holdup of the +5V rail voltage against inrush current. USB peripherals are only allowed to use capacitors around 1/10th the size, so that when a USB device is plugged in, the rail voltage doesn't sag too much. So there is electrical circuitry on either side of the fuse, which could influence a reading.) Some of this is addressed in this document, written by Intel to help motherboard designers during the USB2 era. https://web.archive.org/web/20060626...therboards.pdf Anyway, most of that is for fun, and if you can get any sort of LED to confirm it's got power, that's good enough at this point. For example, this USB desk lamp, draws 5V @ 400mA, just under the 500mA limit for a USB2 port. So this would be a good test for power availability. A typical ATX power supply, can only run about five of these, as the +5VSB rail used on modern designs, has a 2A limit. I don't know if you'd find these at a Walmart or not. http://www.mobisun.com/en/mobisun-le...light-usb.html Paul |
#12
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Keyboard problem
KenK wrote:
Nope. Didn't work. System said no keyboard found when booting and mouse pointer was frozen when system started. sigh I was hoping... And one other thing to look at, on an older motherboard, is "USBPWR" headers. These can be 1x3 or 2x3 arrays of pins. Each 1x3 group, must have a jumper plug between two of the pins. Like this. +---+ | | X X X +5V . +5VSB |
#13
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Keyboard problem
In message , KenK
writes: "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in : [] Don't remember. I bought it a year or so ago. Likely just cheap. Is it PS/2 or USB? USB Is it wireless? No Does it work as a basic keyboard (i. e. the normal keys), with just the special keys not working, or does it not work at all? I just tried the regular keys. Didn't work at all. I think it's a dud then. Try it on another computer. It should work, without drivers, as a normal keyboard. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf Advertising is legalized lying. - H.G. Wells |
#14
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Keyboard problem
In message , KenK
writes: KenK wrote in [] Found a couple of old PS/s (the new on is USB) with two old pre-XP systems (can't recall Win O/S name). My Emachine hsa PS/2 socket. I'll shut off and try one aftr I go off line this morning. Hope it works. This one is a royal pain to use. Have to press some keys VERY hard! I was going to say if they don't have Windows keys, remember Ctrl-Esc does the same as pressing the Windows key (though I'm not sure about combinations like Win+E), but ... Nope. Didn't work. System said no keyboard found when booting and mouse pointer was frozen when system started. sigh I was hoping... .... that doesn't sound too promising. When you say mouse pointer is frozen, do you mean the arrow appears, but doesn't move? Had this with my blind friend's machine (with a touch pad), under Windows 10. He (we) could get it back for one boot, but it would then disappear again (still showing the pointer, but immovable) on next reboot. We did solve it eventually - I forget how, I think it was by downloading the default Synaptics touchpad driver, or the one from the laptop manufacturer (which I think was/is the own-brand make of DSG [Dixons Store Group - Dixons, PC World, etc.] - I forget the "make", but I think it begins with A). [If you're wondering: no, my blind friend doesn't use the mouse/touchpad, but I do when I'm trying to sort things out for him - and he was surprisingly keen that it should work anyway!] We didn't have any problem with the keyboard, though. But there may well be some interaction between the two. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf Advertising is legalized lying. - H.G. Wells |
#15
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Keyboard problem
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in
: In message , KenK writes: KenK wrote in [] Found a couple of old PS/s (the new on is USB) with two old pre-XP systems (can't recall Win O/S name). My Emachine hsa PS/2 socket. I'll shut off and try one aftr I go off line this morning. Hope it works. This one is a royal pain to use. Have to press some keys VERY hard! I was going to say if they don't have Windows keys, remember Ctrl-Esc does the same as pressing the Windows key (though I'm not sure about combinations like Win+E), but ... Nope. Didn't work. System said no keyboard found when booting and mouse pointer was frozen when system started. sigh I was hoping... ... that doesn't sound too promising. When you say mouse pointer is frozen, do you mean the arrow appears, but doesn't move? Yes. Had this with my blind friend's machine (with a touch pad), under Windows 10. He (we) could get it back for one boot, but it would then disappear again (still showing the pointer, but immovable) on next reboot. We did solve it eventually - I forget how, I think it was by downloading the default Synaptics touchpad driver, or the one from the laptop manufacturer (which I think was/is the own-brand make of DSG [Dixons Store Group - Dixons, PC World, etc.] - I forget the "make", but I think it begins with A). [If you're wondering: no, my blind friend doesn't use the mouse/touchpad, but I do when I'm trying to sort things out for him - and he was surprisingly keen that it should work anyway!] We didn't have any problem with the keyboard, though. But there may well be some interaction between the two. I'm going to forgot about that problem - for now anyway. The PS/2 keyboards are very old and I just wanted something to use until I could buy a new one. Hopefuly one that works! -- I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook. |
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