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Dell 780 Problem:



 
 
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  #61  
Old November 24th 17, 02:19 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,402
Default Dell 780 Problem:

Assuming that after testing both DIIMS
and they turn out OK. Would it be beneficial
to add another set of 2x2GB DIMMS?


How do you know which to choose?


https://www.google.com/search?q=2gb+...1700& bih=914

https://www.staples.com/2gb+dimms/di..._2gb%2520dimms

Thanks,
Robert



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  #62  
Old November 24th 17, 02:28 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,402
Default Dell 780 Problem:

I just re-read the instructions and the problem
I have with using Macrium for browsing is the
command prompt commands because as you know I'm
not all that good at that and the context has to
be precise.

However, it seems that if I use File Explorer I
can accomplish the same thing.

Robert
  #63  
Old November 24th 17, 03:49 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Dell 780 Problem:

Mark Twain wrote:
Assuming that after testing both DIIMS
and they turn out OK. Would it be beneficial
to add another set of 2x2GB DIMMS?


How do you know which to choose?


https://www.google.com/search?q=2gb+...1700& bih=914

https://www.staples.com/2gb+dimms/di..._2gb%2520dimms

Thanks,
Robert


For those playing at home, this is Windows 7.

Windows 7 x64 will comfortably use 1GB for the OS portion.
In your case, with 2x2GB installed, this leaves 3GB
for application usage.

Do you think you will need more RAM for say Firefox ?
I haven't checked while my copy of Firefox is running
lately, to see if it uses more. I know in one experiment
some time ago, related to your interest in Yahoo News,
I got Firefox using 1GB of RAM while visiting that page.
In a second test, I could no longer reproduce such a
high usage. It uses a lot less now.

So there may be times you need more RAM. I can't really
guess at what your "worst case" usage pattern is.

I'm on WinXP with 3.2GB of RAM or so to play with, and
I haven't really had a problem yet with running out.
That's the limit of my 32 bit OS on it. (I have other
OSes I use, but WinXP is my "daily driver".)

While there's probably some tool to look for the
"Commit Peak" on Windows 7, you have to collect operational
data for a few days to get some idea what your peak usage is.

I personally prefer to do this by "dead reckoning", using
what I know about each application to chart usage. And then
decide whether more RAM is required.

*******

In "lucky cases", something is written on the RAM sticks,
which may help when making future purchases. Like a label
that gives the timing ("5-5-5-15") as well as a speed ("DDR3-2400").
Then, when you go shopping, you have some idea.

Other options include consulting the Crucial.com or Kingston.com
search pages. There, you can enter model info and find out what
to use.

http://www.crucial.com/usa/en/compat...ex-780-desktop

The densest option there is 2x4GB for $75 or so. The 2x2GB
kit is a bit cheaper. There should be four items listed for
sale on that previous link (click the button to show them).

http://www.crucial.com/usa/en/optipl...ktop/CT7339271

DDR3L-1600
Total Capacity: 8GB Kit (4GBx2)
Specs: DDR3 PC3-12800 CAS 11 UDIMM (unbuffered) NON-ECC DDR3-1600 1.35V

Now, the thing is, that is DDR3L at 1.35V and not the same
as regular DDR3 at 1.50V. Can you mix them ? Does the VDIMM
auto-switch or does it always run the DIMMs at 1.5V ? Dunno.
I think my DDR3 here runs 1.5V and I don't even know if
mine (my newest machine) even supports DDR3L.

If you bought 2x4GB, you could pull the 2x2GB set and just
run the 2x4GB set. As an example of side-stepping the issue.

Summary:

1) Demonstrate the need first. Using Task Manager, what is
your Commit Peak. Or alternately, just watch RAM usage when
several browsers or programs are open and see how much you
are using.

2) It's nice if the RAM types match. I think 1.35V RAM can run
at 1.5V, but I doubt 1.5V RAM is all that happy at 1.35V.
And I don't know what mechanism the system uses to decide
what to do. It can read the SPD before programming the chip
registers, which also gives it a chance to change the voltage
if it wants. I don't really know if 1.5V systems just stick
with 1.5V and leave it at that. So you would want to collect
more info about the RAM you've currently got.

A copy of CPUZ from here, can dump some info about the RAM.
But the info isn't the same as the "label" on the RAM. It's
techie info that's hard to map backwards to actual brand
and SKU info. But this is about the best I can do for an
electronic utility to read out the DIMMs.

https://www.cpuid.com/softwares/cpu-z.html

The first purple download link is an EXE installer,
so leaves a permanent copy in Program Files.

The second ZIP version, you run that as a portable folder.
You unpack the ZIP into a folder in your downloads, and
when you run the EXE file, it should just open a window
with the hardware details. Those are the available choices.

It has a memory tab, so you can list the techie details
of the sticks. It should include timing and speed. For
the clock speed, you take the number from the CPU info
and double it. An 800 clock listing would be DDR3-1600
RAM. Several timings will be listed, and the set with
the largest numbers is probably the "full speed"
timing set.

The machine I'm typing on, the CAS6 DDR2 died on it,
and I got a chance to buy some more. And I got some
slightly faster CAS5 DDR2 with the same clock speed.
If there's a speedup effect, I can't see it :-) .
And on even more modern machines, these CAS timing details
seem to be making less and less of a difference.

*******

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_OptiPlex

780 (Yr.2009) Q45 DDR3-1066/1333 (Intel AMT features disabled)

A DDR3-1600 stick would just gear down to the
slower speed. And the BIOS adjusts the CAS
accordingly.

It says the 780 is DDR3, which tells me the memory
slots run at 1.5V and so 1.35V RAM should run OK
in there. The 1.35V RAM is supposed to tolerate 1.5V.
I expect this is why Crucial lists it as compatible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR3_S...R3U_extensions

The DDR3L and DDR3U specifications are compatible with the original
DDR3 standard and can run at either the lower voltage or at 1.50 V.[19]

HTH,
Paul
  #64  
Old November 24th 17, 03:57 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Dell 780 Problem:

Mark Twain wrote:
I'll copy/paste your instructions and do the
same with your originals and re-read them
and try it as a test.

I do have CD-RW's but I as explained those
have all the backup information when we brought
the 8500 back up from scratch when I lost the MBR
and I don't want to overwrite those in case I need
them again! That sure was a long post and probably
set a record! *L* Thanks again for sticking with me
and walking me through all that!

I've already ordered the CD's in any case and
will keep them around for things like this.

I use to use Nero as well but thought you gave me
a download for IMGBurn but I can't seem to find it?
Could you please provide me with another?

Thanks,
Robert


I recommend Imgburn version 2.5.0.0 and
once it is installed, enter preferences and
"disable updates". It will pester you each time
it starts, to do an update. You want to stick
with 2.5.0.0 because it has no adware.

http://www.oldversion.com/windows/do...mgburn-2-5-0-0

2.5.0.0_SetupImgBurn_2.5.0.0.exe 2,169,915 bytes Jul 26, 2009
CRC32: 39CD6FC6
MD5: F3791CFACDAC03B9E676E44AA2630243
SHA-1: E07BCC23B495D0A966BAE359EA9E0E3A11888454

The download button for that is green in color and says:

+-----------------------------------------------+
| Download Now | |
| | |
| V |
| |
| Tested: Free from spyware, adware and viruses |
+-----------------------------------------------+

Paul
  #65  
Old November 25th 17, 07:15 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,402
Default Dell 780 Problem:

Allot of information regarding DIMMS,... let's
hope both test OK so I can re-install otherwise
I'll have to go shopping and rely on your good
help to steer me in the right direction.

Commit (MB) 1402-1419/4059

Here's my DIMMS

http://i65.tinypic.com/2iafqs1.jpg

Robert
  #66  
Old November 25th 17, 07:20 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,402
Default Dell 780 Problem:

Ummmmm just being careful here, when I
click the download it takes to 'My Quick
Convertor'. Is this right?

Thanks,
Robert
  #67  
Old November 25th 17, 08:11 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Dell 780 Problem:

Mark Twain wrote:
Ummmmm just being careful here, when I
click the download it takes to 'My Quick
Convertor'. Is this right?

Thanks,
Robert


No.

It should be popping up a download dialog
for version 2.5.0.0 of Imgburn.

https://s7.postimg.org/a8l29g6ej/button.gif

Paul
  #68  
Old November 25th 17, 09:50 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Dell 780 Problem:

Mark Twain wrote:
Allot of information regarding DIMMS,... let's
hope both test OK so I can re-install otherwise
I'll have to go shopping and rely on your good
help to steer me in the right direction.

Commit (MB) 1402-1419/4059

Here's my DIMMS

http://i65.tinypic.com/2iafqs1.jpg

Robert


So you're using a bit less than one full DIMM
right now. Your DIMM size is 2GB and the 1402 number
is under 2GB.

*******

The Tinypic picture shows:

CT25664BA1067.M8FR

DDR3-1066 (PC3-8500) CL7 UDIMM 240 pin

The motherboard is likely to run at 1.5V and
that should work for DDR3 or DDR3L. The UDIMM
means they're not buffered.

UDIMMs use eight chips per side.
A UDIMM with ECC uses nine chips.
An RDIMM with ECC, uses a buffer chip for the address
bus, plus a clock generator chip to handle multiple
ranks of memory (sometimes used on a four rank,
thirty six chip module).

Your machine is UDIMM type (i.e. non-server memory).
All my machines here take UDIMM.

*******

We need a plan.

You've got 2x2GB now.

You could:

1) Buy 2x2GB to fill the machine, giving 8GB.
Or use only the new memory, and retire the old memory.
About $50.

2) Buy 2x4GB and retire the old memory.
About $75.

4) Buy two kits of 2x4GB for a total of 16GB
and retire the old memory.
About $150.

When filling all four slots, I like memories without
a heat spreader, as it leaves a little bit more room
for airflow. That's why (2) is 2x4GB, leaving two slots
empty. It gives a bit more airflow for the RAM.

Some of the memories with heat spreaders, the spreaders
touch one another, and it means the DIMMs in the middle
of the array of four DIMMs, run a bit warmer.

There are heat spreader designs that wave "fingers" in the
airflow, to counteract the tendency for the heat spreader
to "choke" the cooling channel.

The DIMMs I got, the top "crown", the "rooster feathers"
on the top, they unscrew from the module, in case
there isn't sufficient vertical clearance for a tall
assembly.

I'm not a big fan of "deals" on RAM, because of the
amount of crap I ended up with. For example, one "bargain"
I bought years ago, I got eight sticks of "no name" memory,
and five of those sticks have failed. That takes all the
"bargain" out of the equation. And the failure mode suggests
it's just a matter of time before the remaining three
croak.

It's possible your current RAM is single-sided, and has
eight chips. This product might fill the bill, at $46.
It's DDR3-1600 at CAS11, which becomes DDR3-1066 at CAS8
(ratios, round up). That makes it one tick slower than your
current RAM.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...58&ignorebbr=1

The ones with a tighter CAS (CAS9) come with heat spreaders
and are even cheaper at $41 per kit.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...27&ignorebbr=1

https://www.gskill.com/en/product/f3-12800cl9d-4gbxl

There are lots of choices for an upgrade. Based on my experience,
I don't like to pack the DIMMs too close together, but it's
your call as to what you select.

With outfits like Staples or Best Buy, I don't like any
"Store Brand" items. The Crucial would be OK from a
quality perspective. I've only had one stick of Crucial
blow out, a Ballistix memory where one chip, all eight
bits of output died at the same time. Everything else I
got from Crucial has been OK.

Kingston, I had one set fail.

The last two sets I bought were GSkill and
they were good.

If you tell me your budget (max spend), that
will control my enthusiasm for goofy ideas :-)

Paul
  #69  
Old November 25th 17, 01:56 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,402
Default Dell 780 Problem:

The CD-RW arrived and I clicked to do the memtest
but how do I proceed? There are so many downloads?
Could you please point me in the right direction?

Thanks,
Robert

  #70  
Old November 25th 17, 02:28 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,402
Default Dell 780 Problem:

I downloaded IMGBurn, thanks for the screenshot
and link.

I only asked about the increase of DIMMS because I
thought more RAMM was always better? However
seems superfluous in this case.

Understand about the UDIMMS,... yes mine are single
sided. All your suggestions sound interesting and even
though it's a backup computer I'd like to upgrade it as
much as I can if possible.

I would have to wait about a month before doing so
however I like what you suggest. Those ripjaws look
wild! So the brand name would be Crucial since that's
also the one in the 780 and as you say are reliable.

I don't know what the 8500 has but we used a program once
and it showed all four sticks a matched set and all
running in sync.

I kind of like the idea of 16GB but it's fairly quick with 4GB,
it should be lighting with 8GB,.... I can't imagine 16GB but
I also concerned about cooling,. If I went with 16GB would
that be a problem?

Robert


  #71  
Old November 25th 17, 02:32 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Dell 780 Problem:

Mark Twain wrote:
The CD-RW arrived and I clicked to do the memtest
but how do I proceed? There are so many downloads?
Could you please point me in the right direction?

Thanks,
Robert


The change log, tells you what has been added to each version.
So for example, version 5.01 adds multicore support. But it's
optional and not supported by default. That implies 5.01 is similar
to 4.20, unless you choose to make adjustments to the running
program settings.

http://www.memtest.org/#change

Now, a suitable download then would be:

http://www.memtest.org/download/5.01...+-5.01.iso.zip

That's because it is a ZIP file, which Windows knows how to display.

After you click that link and download the file, you can right-click
the file (ZIP) and select Open from the top of the menu.

A folder-like thing will open. Inside is one file.

memtest86+-5.01.iso 1,839,104 bytes

You can copy that to your Downloads folder (open a second
File Explorer window and copy it over).

Now, open the Imgburn program. If it offers to update the program
(a dialog will pop up), refuse, and close the update window. You can
modify the Preferences in the program, to stop it from offering
the update the next time.

The other things you can do in the Imgburn Preferences, is disable
the sound effects. His sound effects are a little loud. Sometimes it
is handy to have a sound effect that says the disc burn is complete,
but overall I find the sound annoying. You can also turn down the
central volume on your Windows sound panel to reduce the annoyance,
if you want to do it that way.

To burn the disc, select the upper-left icon called

Write image file to disc

That will convert the ISO to a bootable CD.

When you click the button, a whole bunch of smaller
print will be in the window. At the top it says

Source

Please select a file... X X

The leftmost icon of those two X's in my diagram, is the
"browse" dialog to pick the file. Navigate to your
Downloads and select the "memtest86+-5.01.iso" file.

Now, where the Destination is located in the middle of the
IMGBurn window, you can pick your CD burner letter down there.

The "verify" box is ticked, and that option causes the
freshly burned CD to be read and compared to the original
ISO. That's a quality control step, to detect defective CDs.
I leave that enabled.

The large icon further down, looks like a sheet of paper
with a disc symbol, a triangle pointing to the right, and
a disc next to it. When you click that icon, the burn
begins. Of course, you should have inserted your blank CD
in the tray, and closed the door, before that icon is
ready to be clicked.

The burn happens first.

The drawer will open at the end of the burn.
*Don't touch it.* The drawer will close immediately
again, to start the Verification step. Given the tiny
size of this particular ISO, the whole process shouldn't
take more than about 30 seconds or so.

After Imgburn says the operation is complete, you can
close Imgburn program with the X in the upper right.

If you open File Explorer and look at the CD now,
it should have files on it. I think there is a syslinux
boot loader on this one.

Now, if you reboot the computer, with that disc in the
tray, and the CD drive has been set in the BIOS to be
first in the boot order, a memory test will start soon
after. The memory test will run forever, if you don't
touch it. There is a "Pass" counter. Wait until the
Pass counter says at least "1" which means the test
suite has been run a total of one time. (One pass
can take two hours.) You can also leave it running
over night if you want.

If there are any memory errors, they'll be printed
in the middle of the 640x480 memtest screen. For a
seriously damaged DIMM, the errors will "scroll" on
the screen, and compared to the size of the DIMM, it
could take centuries to display every location as
being bad. So if the DIMM is doing that, scrolling
like crazy, there's no point doing any more testing.

Now, before anything else, you can pop out the CD from
the tray (even if the program is running), and put the
CD back in its jewel box.

When you press esc, even with the CD removed from the
tray, the computer will reboot. If the CD is out of the
tray, it cannot boot a second time and so Windows will
boot instead. If you leave the CD in the tray, it would
boot the CD a second time. This is one piece of software,
that doesn't "hug" the CD, and the CD can be ejected before
the reboot and there's no issue getting the damn thing
out of the tray. Many other softwares lack a good procedure
for the user to retrieve the CD when done.

Paul
  #72  
Old November 25th 17, 03:29 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,402
Default Dell 780 Problem:

I tried to do a memtest:

http://i67.tinypic.com/5wh0g8.jpg

http://i68.tinypic.com/2cnbn5z.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/2hq9fex.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/2ic44et.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/2rducjp.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/2ujnh9s.jpg


I restarted the 780 with the CD inside
but it took me to the sign-in page. I
tried it again and the same thing.

Robert
  #73  
Old November 25th 17, 04:05 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,402
Default Dell 780 Problem:


http://i64.tinypic.com/5dld7o.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/95ydg7.jpg


Robert
  #74  
Old November 25th 17, 04:25 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,402
Default Dell 780 Problem:

Let's max out the 780,.. the only thing
we did when I got it was add a video card
I believe.

Could this be it? I had it bookmarked.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16814130635

Since were going to max out the DIMMS is
there anything else I should do? Like add
another fan? (a quiet one)

I presently have it sitting on the floor
(on a board) do you think I should raise it
for better airflow? The 8500 is sitting on top
of my old 486 tower I use as a pedestal base
and painted it black. It brings the 8500 at the
perfect level to the desk. The 780 is next to
it.

Since were going to max out the 780,.. $150 - $200
do we need to continue the DIMM tests? Should
I run the test for all the new DIMMS?

I'll let you select the new DIMMS as if it were your
computer and go with your choice as I did with selecting
the Dell 780.

Once you give me your selection I'll buy it when I can
and then let you know,..

Many Thanks,
Robert
  #75  
Old November 25th 17, 04:44 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Dell 780 Problem:

Mark Twain wrote:

snip


I kind of like the idea of 16GB but it's fairly quick with 4GB,
it should be lighting with 8GB,.... I can't imagine 16GB but
I also concerned about cooling,. If I went with 16GB would
that be a problem?


I'm the only person who worries about this stuff :-)

*******

There are obviously people in the industry who
don't share my concern. The new Vega GPU from AMD
has HBM memory stacks inside the GPU. And that
means, when the GPU hits 90C while gaming, the
8GB of HBM inside the GPU package is also
going to be roasting at 90C. So those
engineers don't think there is a problem :-)

In this picture, the memory stacks are next
to the GPU silicon die. The "old" way to do it,
was space memory chips around the GPU like
"circling the wagons". The difference is, the
memory chips on the right can run a bit cooler.
The ones on the left will be heated to GPU temperature.

https://images.anandtech.com/doci/11...ntation-15.png

( https://images.anandtech.com/doci/11...ntation-15.png )

The same technique has been used in an FPGA that Intel
makes, as well as one of the exotic processors that
Intel makes (has RAM inside the CPU package).

So nobody seems to be too concerned about those.

*******

As for whether 16GB is useful, it depends on what programs
you use. For Photoshop, extra RAM is a lot faster than using
a scratch disk. When I used to use Photoshop, a basic
operation might take five to ten seconds (on an older
computer), but dumping the operation to a scratch
disk before allowing the next command to be entered,
took around ninety seconds. That made image editing
as slow as molasses. You would sit there and wait
until the disk light went off, before entering your
next command. And the computer at the time, you couldn't
add any more memory. It was already at maximum.

Now you can have machines with huge memories.
To make that possible, they have buffered DIMMs with
128GB on one module. Then the machine can hold 16
or 32 of those. And they cost $2000 a piece. So
for the "small" machine, the machine holds 16
DIMMs for $32,000 and the memory total is 2TB.
There would never be a delay in Photoshop with that.

https://www.amazon.com/SNPXNJHYC-128...gb+lrdimm+ddr4

Firefox is the only program that threatens to make
a pig of itself. And there's really no way to
predict how much RAM it will use at some future date
(because the amount of RAM it uses to display a
web page now, is already pretty ridiculous).

The most disappointing part, would be adding extra
RAM and not seeing any difference. When I went to the
local computer store, the salesman actually tried to
dissuade me from buying more RAM :-) I thought that
was pretty funny at the time.

Above a certain level, the RAM might not get used
that much. When I'm not using my "excess of RAM",
I use it as a RAMDisk (a kind of disk drive). When
I was building Chromium and Firefox from source code,
I actually had to switch the RAMDisk off, because
the linking step was using 10GB+ of RAM. It took
a number of tries until I got the resource allocations
set up properly on the machine, for the build to finish.

Paul
 




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