HomeGroup removed from Windows 10 (Version 1803)?

HomeGroup removed from Windows 10 (Version 1803) - Windows Help
https://support.microsoft.com/en-ca/...egroup-removed

So this just happened. Any opinions? I found when Homegroups first
appeared (in Windows 7, for me), they seemed to work slightly better
than the previous Workgroups system, it detected things more often. But
then I found that they were very finicky about what constituted a LAN.
For example, I couldn't get it to work over a Hamachi VPN LAN.

Yousuf Khan

ken1943 wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jun 2018 20:13:01 -0400, Yousuf Khan
wrote:

HomeGroup removed from Windows 10 (Version 1803) - Windows Help
https://support.microsoft.com/en-ca/...egroup-removed

So this just happened. Any opinions? I found when Homegroups first
appeared (in Windows 7, for me), they seemed to work slightly better
than the previous Workgroups system, it detected things more often. But
then I found that they were very finicky about what constituted a LAN.
For example, I couldn't get it to work over a Hamachi VPN LAN.

Yousuf Khan

You need to set two services to automatic (delayed start):

Function Discovery Provider Host
Function Discovery Resource Publication

The funny thing is, I think those two services are still on
Windows 10 1803. But 1803 is the release that *deprecates*
HomeGroup. It's no longer supported.

For the longest while, HomeGroup was actually interfering with
WorkGroup. And it's possible one of those two services had
something to do with screwing up WorkGroup. Yet those
services are still there today.

One other thing that HomeGroup relied upon, was IPV6, but
don't ask me what protocol flavor it needed from that
to work.

WorkGroup has a storied history. It comes in three versions
(V1 is the only flavor WinXP has). You can switch off a flavor,
for security reasons if you want to. In addition to
versions, there are "dialects". The versions aren't
really all that much different, and contain a slight
expansion on feature set.

WorkGroup supports encryption, as if people are going
to run that protocol across the Internet with only
40 bit encryption. The later versions, I think support
128 bit encryption (like maybe AES128 or something).

WorkGroup was a pain to debug, because of the history.
Whereas HomeGroup was a pain to debug, because of the
services (there's a list of seven or eight things
that have to be working for HomeGroup to work).

But now that it's deprecated in 1803, HomeGroup is
now one less thing to worry about. Even if some of
the services it used, didn't get removed.

Paul

Just curious what version 1803 is, exactly; - an update number perhaps?

The laptop I just bought came with verion 10.0.17134.1

--
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On 06/09/2018 9:57 PM, GS wrote:
Just curious what version 1803 is, exactly; - an update number perhaps?

*The laptop I just bought came with verion* 10.0.17134.1

In the search box type in winver, this will return you the full
version number.

Rene

On 06/09/2018 9:57 PM, GS wrote:
Just curious what version 1803 is, exactly; - an update number perhaps?

*The laptop I just bought came with verion* 10.0.17134.1

In the search box type in winver, this will return you the full version
number.

Rene

Thanks!
That returns Version 1803 (OS Build 17134.81) and so I suspect the correct
numeric display s/b 10.1803.17134.81 perhaps?

--
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
Classic VB Users Regroup!
comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion

On Sat, 09 Jun 2018 22:57:58 -0400, GS wrote:

Just curious what version 1803 is, exactly; - an update number perhaps?

The 1803 is the original release date, March 2018. With 1709 it was
September 2017. It doesn't mean that you will be offered it in March
2018 since they roll the update out over several months.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail rpont (at) gmail (dot) com

On 6/10/2018 1:28 AM, rp wrote:
The 1803 is the original release date, March 2018. With 1709 it was
September 2017. It doesn't mean that you will be offered it in March
2018 since they roll the update out over several months.

Yup, it only became available to me yesterday (i.e. 3 months later), and
thus my surprise at the removal of the service. So far, 1803 has been
the smoothest upgrade yet of Windows 10, only destroyed functionality on
one feature. Previous versions destroyed multiple features all at once.

I was using a program that brought back Desktop Gadgets from Windows 7
days. That program no longer seems to work anymore.

Yousuf Khan

GS wrote:
On 06/09/2018 9:57 PM, GS wrote:
Just curious what version 1803 is, exactly; - an update number perhaps?

The laptop I just bought came with verion 10.0.17134.1

In the search box type in winver, this will return you the full
version number.

Rene

Thanks!
That returns Version 1803 (OS Build 17134.81) and so I suspect the
correct numeric display s/b 10.1803.17134.81 perhaps?


The people at Microsoft were tripping on something,
when they made up their "number system".

The actual software build number, makes some kind of
sense. This number is relatively useful - 10.0.17134.1

Whereas the marketing department, decided they needed their
own number. So they release 1803, in April or May :-) Precision
isn't a hallmark attribute of marketing people. Or they
make up a descriptor like "Spring Surprise" or "Fall Surprise"
or "Redstone".

I think sticking with the developer number and only using
that, makes a lot more sense.

Mixing the developer and marketing numbers together,
well, that will cause indigestion.

As for patching to 17134.81 , patches arrive on Patch
Tuesday, but there can also be patches delivered on
other days. So while you expect a relatively big patch
on the second Tuesday, other stuff can show up later.

The table at the bottom of this page, can show you
what the equivalent cumulative patch is, for each different
"version" of Windows 10.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4099479

17134.83
16299.461
15063.1112
14393.2273
10586.1540
10240.17862

You'd need to check the date on each of those entries,
to figure out how many "versions" Microsoft is still supporting.
Microsoft claimed they would only support two versions
at any one time (like patch 16299 and 17134), but they
seem to be patching more than that. Some users will still
be on 16299, and haven't received their 17134 Upgrade.

Paul

On 06/10/2018 01:57 AM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 6/10/2018 1:28 AM, rp wrote:
The 1803 is the original release date, March 2018. With 1709 it was
September 2017. It doesn't mean that you will be offered it in March
2018 since they roll the update out over several months.

Yup, it only became available to me yesterday (i.e. 3 months later), and
thus my surprise at the removal of the service. So far, 1803 has been
the smoothest upgrade yet of Windows 10, only destroyed functionality on
one feature. Previous versions destroyed multiple features all at once.

I was using a program that brought back Desktop Gadgets from Windows 7
days. That program no longer seems to work anymore.

Â*Â*Â*Â*Yousuf Khan
What gadgets do you use? And was it 8Gadget pack?
My wife uses it and her machine updated too. MS pops up and says the
program is broken and will not run, but then in a few seconds the
program itself now pops up and asks if you want to repair it. Doing so
fixes it and it runs. Odd little program. The 3 things I wanted I
replaced with Rainmeter.

On 6/10/2018 2:29 AM, Big Al wrote:
What gadgets do you use? And was it 8Gadget pack?
My wife uses it and her machine updated too. MS pops up and says the
program is broken and will not run, but then in a few seconds the
program itself now pops up and asks if you want to repair it. Doing so
fixes it and it runs. Odd little program. The 3 things I wanted I
replaced with Rainmeter.

Desktop Gadgets Revived 2.0. Perhaps there's a 2.1 somewhere now, I'll
have to check.

Yousuf Khan

On 6/9/2018 8:29 PM, ken1943 wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jun 2018 20:13:01 -0400, Yousuf Khan
wrote:

HomeGroup removed from Windows 10 (Version 1803) - Windows Help
https://support.microsoft.com/en-ca/...egroup-removed

So this just happened. Any opinions? I found when Homegroups first
appeared (in Windows 7, for me), they seemed to work slightly better
than the previous Workgroups system, it detected things more often. But
then I found that they were very finicky about what constituted a LAN.
For example, I couldn't get it to work over a Hamachi VPN LAN.

Yousuf Khan

Never tried that, was hooked on Workgroups. There is something new
called ???

I think it's simply back to the Workgroups model again. It takes forever
for the Workgroups to rediscover everything. I clicked on "Network" on
the Windows Explorer and then went to get a coffee while I waited for it
to finish. That used to be the case with Workgroups before too, and
that's what Homegroups fixed, but now it's all be "unfixed" again.

Yousuf Khan

On 06/10/2018 02:40 AM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 6/10/2018 2:29 AM, Big Al wrote:
What gadgets do you use?Â*Â* And was it 8Gadget pack?
My wife uses it and her machine updated too.Â* MS pops up and says the
program is broken and will not run, but then in a few seconds the
program itself now pops up and asks if you want to repair it.Â*Â* Doing
so fixes it and it runs.Â*Â* Odd little program.Â*Â*Â* The 3 things I
wanted I replaced with Rainmeter.

Desktop Gadgets Revived 2.0. Perhaps there's a 2.1 somewhere now, I'll
have to check.

Â*Â*Â*Â*Yousuf Khan
No, what are the gadgets, not the program. Clock? etc.

GS wrote:
On 06/09/2018 9:57 PM, GS wrote:
Just curious what version 1803 is, exactly; - an update number perhaps?

The laptop I just bought came with verion 10.0.17134.1

In the search box type in winver, this will return you the full version
number.

Rene

Thanks!
That returns Version 1803 (OS Build 17134.81) and so I suspect the correct
numeric display s/b 10.1803.17134.81 perhaps?


The people at Microsoft were tripping on something,
when they made up their "number system".

The actual software build number, makes some kind of
sense. This number is relatively useful - 10.0.17134.1

Whereas the marketing department, decided they needed their
own number. So they release 1803, in April or May :-) Precision
isn't a hallmark attribute of marketing people. Or they
make up a descriptor like "Spring Surprise" or "Fall Surprise"
or "Redstone".

I think sticking with the developer number and only using
that, makes a lot more sense.

Mixing the developer and marketing numbers together,
well, that will cause indigestion.

As for patching to 17134.81 , patches arrive on Patch
Tuesday, but there can also be patches delivered on
other days. So while you expect a relatively big patch
on the second Tuesday, other stuff can show up later.

The table at the bottom of this page, can show you
what the equivalent cumulative patch is, for each different
"version" of Windows 10.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4099479

17134.83
16299.461
15063.1112
14393.2273
10586.1540
10240.17862

You'd need to check the date on each of those entries,
to figure out how many "versions" Microsoft is still supporting.
Microsoft claimed they would only support two versions
at any one time (like patch 16299 and 17134), but they
seem to be patching more than that. Some users will still
be on 16299, and haven't received their 17134 Upgrade.

Paul

As a developer myself, I fully understand software build numbering and that
example in my original post (which you cite here) does make some sense to me.

I actually made a program (after collaborating with other colleagues as to what
approach to run with) that uses WMI to pull the file/product version info from
C:\WINDOWWS\System32\ntdll.dll. My first run returned this:

File Version: 6.2.16299.64
Product Version: 10.0.16299.64

After receiving the latest update it returns;

File Version: 6.2.17134.1
Product Version: 10.0.17134.1

I find the File Version info rather interesting as 6.2 belongs to Win8.0 while
6.3 belongs to Win8.1, which suggests to me that Win10 is a rework of Win8.0's
source code project. Here's a list of my current active OS file versions:

Win XP Pro: 5.x
(Vista: 6.0) no longer have
Win 7 Pro: 6.1
(Win 8.0: 6.?) never did have
Win 8.1 Pro: 6.3 (in VM on Win7Pro machine)
Win 10.0 Pro: 6.2 (in VM on Win7Pro machine)
Win 10.0 Home: 6.2 (newest laptop)

Hmm, ..kinda suggests everything since Vista is a ServicePack for Vista. Don't
get the numbering logic (from a developer's view) at all!

--
Garry

Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
Classic VB Users Regroup!
comp.lang.basic.visual.misc
microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion

GS wrote:


I find the File Version info rather interesting as 6.2 belongs to Win8.0
while 6.3 belongs to Win8.1, which suggests to me that Win10 is a rework
of Win8.0's source code project. Here's a list of my current active OS
file versions:

Win XP Pro: 5.x
(Vista: 6.0) no longer have
Win 7 Pro: 6.1
(Win 8.0: 6.?) never did have
Win 8.1 Pro: 6.3 (in VM on Win7Pro machine)
Win 10.0 Pro: 6.2 (in VM on Win7Pro machine)
Win 10.0 Home: 6.2 (newest laptop)

Hmm, ..kinda suggests everything since Vista is a ServicePack for Vista.
Don't get the numbering logic (from a developer's view) at all!

Vista was the rewrite - which took a long time to do.

Windows 10 is not a rewrite, as it's just a delta on top
of Windows 8.1 .

The build number has been monotonic since Vista though.

The patch system wsusscn2 file, contains numbers going
back to the dawn of time. You might find references
to WinXP era files, in the patching logic for Windows 10.
The wsusscn2 file is over 200MB now (it used to be about
5MB in the WinXP era).

They still need the OS version number part, when they're
"blocking" things. Like preventing an older version
of Solitaire from running. There's something in the
header of an executable they can check, because
people who know a way around that, use a hex editor
to change a few single bytes in the executable header. But
I've not been able to figure out what they're editing.
This seems to mainly apply to moving Microsoft content
from an older Windows to a newer Windows.

Paul

Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-06-09 20:13, Yousuf Khan wrote:
HomeGroup removed from Windows 10 (Version 1803) - Windows Help
https://support.microsoft.com/en-ca/...egroup-removed


So this just happened. Any opinions? I found when Homegroups first
appeared (in Windows 7, for me), they seemed to work slightly better
than the previous Workgroups system, it detected things more often.
But then I found that they were very finicky about what constituted a
LAN. For example, I couldn't get it to work over a Hamachi VPN LAN.

Yousuf Khan


Speaking of Homegroup/Workgroup: neither of them working correctly here.

Is there soem 3rd party replacement? I've not foudn one in the usual
places.

TIA.

As a loyal Microsoft customer, you're supposed to debug
and fix this stuff. Not latch onto third party stuff :-)

The third-party Workgroup replacement is... Linux :-)

*******

Go to Control Panels : Programs and Features : Windows Features
and turn on the SMBV1 entries you find in there. Reboot
and retest. On a previous Windows 10, there were three
entries that needed to be ticked, and now there might
be just two entries to tick and enable.

I can't guarantee this will fix the problems for everyone,
but it's a start.

And the Googling I can find, suggests disabling IPV6 is
not a solution for this.

Paul