Stop DVD drive reading? DVD bitstream copier?

I have a corrupted DVD - made on a DVD recorder, years ago, so it's
never been written to with a PC.

From time to time, I try it in a PC (XP or 7), to see if I can get
anything off it.

Usually, it makes the PC go very sluggish, or even stop altogether. It's
currently in my W7 machine, where it has been for the last half hour or
possibly hour (I didn't note). Nothing is running on that PC, other than
Explorer, which is showing the hard drive partitions, and also in the
_right_ pane shows the DVD drive, but just the letter - for the HD
partitions it shows their name, letter, and a bar and text showing how
full/empty they are. In the _left_ pane it shows the HD partitions but
not the DVD drive - as if it wasn't there. *But the LED on the DVD drive
is flickering constantly*. From time to time - meaning at intervals of
several minutes - I hear the (DVD) drive head move.

I _presume_ what's happening is the OS has detected that the drive was
closed, and is trying to read the disc, and failing. Yes, I have autorun
turned off, and the system set to do nothing for virtually any kind of
media - including DVD - being inserted. But it's still trying to read
the disc. (If I put in another video DVD, after a minute or less it
shows up as having a name, 0 bytes free, and the three folders DVDs have
- TS_VIDEO or something like that, and two others. I've actually seen
the dud DVD show those _once_ today.)

Does anyone know of a combination of:
1. a way to stop the DVD drive _at all_ trying to read a disc (under OS
control, of course), until
2. anything that will do a bitstream dump from the DVD drive (obviously
this would have to start reading)?

I've tried reading this disc in various DVD players, too: in most cases
it locks _them_ up for a significant time, and they then say no disc or
bad disc, or similar. It seems there's something intrinsic to the DVD
format that has this effect. If I was even more cynical than I am, I'd
say it is to do with copy-protection and so on, but I'm not quite there
yet. (This is a disc _I_ made, recording from camera inputs, so has
never been anywhere near any copyright - or even broadcast - material.)

That LED is still flickering away (accompanied by the occasional
head-movement noise ...)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Veni, Vidi, Video (I came, I saw, I'll watch it again later) - Mik from S+AS
Limited ), 1998

On 02/21/2015 09:04 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
I have a corrupted DVD - made on a DVD recorder, years ago, so it's
never been written to with a PC.

From time to time, I try it in a PC (XP or 7), to see if I can get
anything off it.

Usually, it makes the PC go very sluggish, or even stop altogether. It's
currently in my W7 machine, where it has been for the last half hour or
possibly hour (I didn't note). Nothing is running on that PC, other than
Explorer, which is showing the hard drive partitions, and also in the
_right_ pane shows the DVD drive, but just the letter - for the HD
partitions it shows their name, letter, and a bar and text showing how
full/empty they are. In the _left_ pane it shows the HD partitions but
not the DVD drive - as if it wasn't there. *But the LED on the DVD drive
is flickering constantly*. From time to time - meaning at intervals of
several minutes - I hear the (DVD) drive head move.

I _presume_ what's happening is the OS has detected that the drive was
closed, and is trying to read the disc, and failing. Yes, I have autorun
turned off, and the system set to do nothing for virtually any kind of
media - including DVD - being inserted. But it's still trying to read
the disc. (If I put in another video DVD, after a minute or less it
shows up as having a name, 0 bytes free, and the three folders DVDs have
- TS_VIDEO or something like that, and two others. I've actually seen
the dud DVD show those _once_ today.)



Try this


http://www.isobuster.com/

In article ,
says...

I have a corrupted DVD - made on a DVD recorder, years ago, so it's
never been written to with a PC.

From time to time, I try it in a PC (XP or 7), to see if I can get
anything off it.

Usually, it makes the PC go very sluggish, or even stop altogether. It's
currently in my W7 machine, where it has been for the last half hour or
possibly hour (I didn't note). Nothing is running on that PC, other than
Explorer, which is showing the hard drive partitions, and also in the
_right_ pane shows the DVD drive, but just the letter - for the HD
partitions it shows their name, letter, and a bar and text showing how
full/empty they are. In the _left_ pane it shows the HD partitions but
not the DVD drive - as if it wasn't there. *But the LED on the DVD drive
is flickering constantly*. From time to time - meaning at intervals of
several minutes - I hear the (DVD) drive head move.

I _presume_ what's happening is the OS has detected that the drive was
closed, and is trying to read the disc, and failing. Yes, I have autorun
turned off, and the system set to do nothing for virtually any kind of
media - including DVD - being inserted. But it's still trying to read
the disc. (If I put in another video DVD, after a minute or less it
shows up as having a name, 0 bytes free, and the three folders DVDs have
- TS_VIDEO or something like that, and two others. I've actually seen
the dud DVD show those _once_ today.)

Does anyone know of a combination of:
1. a way to stop the DVD drive _at all_ trying to read a disc (under OS
control, of course), until
2. anything that will do a bitstream dump from the DVD drive (obviously
this would have to start reading)?

I've tried reading this disc in various DVD players, too: in most cases
it locks _them_ up for a significant time, and they then say no disc or
bad disc, or similar. It seems there's something intrinsic to the DVD
format that has this effect. If I was even more cynical than I am, I'd
say it is to do with copy-protection and so on, but I'm not quite there
yet. (This is a disc _I_ made, recording from camera inputs, so has
never been anywhere near any copyright - or even broadcast - material.)

That LED is still flickering away (accompanied by the occasional
head-movement noise ...)

I think you'll find the pc's OS isn't doing anything at that point. It's
the firmware on the drive itself trying to determine if there's an
optical disk in the drive and what type. It "sees something" but is
failing in determining exactly what it is. Note - it has to figure out
dvd (+ & -), dvd rw (+ & -) dual layer versions of same, maybe it's a cd
or cd-rw instead. It's my undertanding they all require a different
laser frequency. I also think it's only after firmware determines a disk
is present does it then pass along some signal to the OS a disk has been
inserted and at that point the OS accesses the disk for the first time.

Take a known bad disk put it in, betcha it acts the same.

In message , philo
writes:
On 02/21/2015 09:04 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
I have a corrupted DVD - made on a DVD recorder, years ago, so it's
never been written to with a PC.

From time to time, I try it in a PC (XP or 7), to see if I can get
anything off it.

Usually, it makes the PC go very sluggish, or even stop altogether. It's
currently in my W7 machine, where it has been for the last half hour or
possibly hour (I didn't note). Nothing is running on that PC, other than
Explorer, which is showing the hard drive partitions, and also in the
_right_ pane shows the DVD drive, but just the letter - for the HD
partitions it shows their name, letter, and a bar and text showing how
full/empty they are. In the _left_ pane it shows the HD partitions but
not the DVD drive - as if it wasn't there. *But the LED on the DVD drive
is flickering constantly*. From time to time - meaning at intervals of
several minutes - I hear the (DVD) drive head move.

I _presume_ what's happening is the OS has detected that the drive was
closed, and is trying to read the disc, and failing. Yes, I have autorun
turned off, and the system set to do nothing for virtually any kind of
media - including DVD - being inserted. But it's still trying to read
the disc. (If I put in another video DVD, after a minute or less it
shows up as having a name, 0 bytes free, and the three folders DVDs have
- TS_VIDEO or something like that, and two others. I've actually seen
the dud DVD show those _once_ today.)



Try this


http://www.isobuster.com/


Installed. When run without the rogue DVD in, runs - even shows me an
unused 2.49 MB (yes, MB!) partition at the top of my HD!

When run - or rather started - with the rogue DVD in, sulks. (Is sitting
there with its big funny-shaped logo in the middle of the desktop. Has
NOT opened its normal window. DVD light flashing.)

I think it's what I asked about above: OS is trying to access the DVD,
and slowing down everything else while it does.

Pressing eject button on DVD now: As soon as I did, IsoBuster started.
I've now selected "don't auto-check media", or something like that. I've
now selected the DVD drive (which is open): it says "No media present",
which is reasonable.

I'm about to close the drawer. In theory, with IB set not to autocheck,
nothing should happen until I press IB's "Refresh" icon. Hmm, drive has
made lots of noises as usual: now _sort of_ settled down, with drive
light flashing. IB is still showing no media present, so going to click
its Refresh icon.

Oops - as soom as mouse cursor is within the IB window, changes to the
circle - i. e. IB is busy. I try clicking on Refresh anyway - window
goes pale, and title bar gets "(Not Responding)" appended.

The IB window flickers every few seconds. About one in three flickers,
the (Not Responding) disappears, only to reappear next flicker. The
window panes inside IB are blank, though, i. e. it hasn't found
anything.

I'll leave it for an hour maybe (depending whether I think anything is
happening), and report back. But I'm not hopeful: the fact that IB
didn't even start properly when I tried to start it with the DVD in
doesn't, IMO, bode well.

Ah - after what must have been ten or twenty minutes, it is showing an
open session, containing 15 tracks, and a window has popped up over
them: "No file-systems nor files and folders could be found. [So what is
the open session and the 15 tracks, whose LBA and size are shown in the
right pane?] Assuming you are looking for certain (missing) files, we
suggest you run the option "find mussing files and folders"".

At least the drive light has stopped flashing.

I'll work with this.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Heaven forbid today's audience should feel bombarded with information or
worse, lectured. Dont'scare the horses by waving facts around.
- David Butcher, RT 2014/11/29-12/5

In message , pjp
writes:
[]
I think you'll find the pc's OS isn't doing anything at that point. It's
the firmware on the drive itself trying to determine if there's an
optical disk in the drive and what type. It "sees something" but is
failing in determining exactly what it is. Note - it has to figure out
dvd (+ & -), dvd rw (+ & -) dual layer versions of same, maybe it's a cd
or cd-rw instead. It's my undertanding they all require a different
laser frequency. I also think it's only after firmware determines a disk
is present does it then pass along some signal to the OS a disk has been
inserted and at that point the OS accesses the disk for the first time.

Take a known bad disk put it in, betcha it acts the same.

I'm sure you're right (and that would explain why DVD video players have
a problem too). But it takes many minutes to make its mid up )-:. Now,
if there were some way to _tell_ it (a) it's a DVD+R (b) _don't_ try to
access it until I tell you to! ...
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Heaven forbid today's audience should feel bombarded with information or
worse, lectured. Dont'scare the horses by waving facts around.
- David Butcher, RT 2014/11/29-12/5

Oops - as soom as mouse cursor is within the IB window, changes to the
circle - i. e. IB is busy. I try clicking on Refresh anyway - window
goes pale, and title bar gets "(Not Responding)" appended.

The IB window flickers every few seconds. About one in three flickers,
the (Not Responding) disappears, only to reappear next flicker. The
window panes inside IB are blank, though, i. e. it hasn't found anything.

I'll leave it for an hour maybe (depending whether I think anything is
happening), and report back. But I'm not hopeful: the fact that IB
didn't even start properly when I tried to start it with the DVD in
doesn't, IMO, bode well.

Ah - after what must have been ten or twenty minutes, it is showing an
open session, containing 15 tracks, and a window has popped up over
them: "No file-systems nor files and folders could be found. [So what is
the open session and the 15 tracks, whose LBA and size are shown in the
right pane?] Assuming you are looking for certain (missing) files, we
suggest you run the option "find mussing files and folders"".

At least the drive light has stopped flashing.

I'll work with this.



Does not look too promising but who knows....

In message , philo
writes:

Oops - as soom as mouse cursor is within the IB window, changes to the
circle - i. e. IB is busy. I try clicking on Refresh anyway - window
goes pale, and title bar gets "(Not Responding)" appended.

The IB window flickers every few seconds. About one in three flickers,
the (Not Responding) disappears, only to reappear next flicker. The
window panes inside IB are blank, though, i. e. it hasn't found anything.

I'll leave it for an hour maybe (depending whether I think anything is
happening), and report back. But I'm not hopeful: the fact that IB
didn't even start properly when I tried to start it with the DVD in
doesn't, IMO, bode well.

Ah - after what must have been ten or twenty minutes, it is showing an
open session, containing 15 tracks, and a window has popped up over
them: "No file-systems nor files and folders could be found. [So what is
the open session and the 15 tracks, whose LBA and size are shown in the
right pane?] Assuming you are looking for certain (missing) files, we
suggest you run the option "find mussing files and folders"".

At least the drive light has stopped flashing.

I'll work with this.



Does not look too promising but who knows....

Well, the various pop-up windows are far from intuitive, but one of the
things it suggested was make an image of the disc on the HD, which it
can then attack much more quickly. (Though one of the help pages
suggested that that wouldn't achieve anything - if it didn't find any
files on the DVD, it won't in the image. But maybe that's for looking
for files in the non-audioCD/videoDVD sense, i. e. a data disc.) Anyway,
I've told it to do that: a little window headed Extracting Image is
bobbing up and down every few seconds, containing the text "DVD +R
Track 01" (the window behind it suggests there are 15 tracks). On
alternate bobs, the little window title gets "(Not Responding)" added to
its title (and then removed).
In the window behind, where it lists the 15 tracks (and their LBA and
size), it has put a red cross next to Track 01, but not any of the
others; I'm hoping it will eventually give up on Track 01, and copy the
rest OK. (Perhaps Track 01 is where the original recorder was keeping a
temporary directory of all the other tracks, against the time when it
would eventually have finalised the disc? Yes, I know DVD+R is only
write-once, but the recorder must do that _some_where!)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Veni, Vidi, VO5 (I came, I saw, I washed my hair) - Mik from S+AS Limited
), 1998

En el artículo , J. P. Gilliver
(John) escribió:
I have a corrupted DVD - made on a DVD recorder, years ago, so it's
never been written to with a PC.

From time to time, I try it in a PC (XP or 7), to see if I can get
anything off it.

Obvious questions...

1) is the disc clean?

2) is it scratched? Hold it up to a strong light, can you see light
through any scratches? If yes, you'll never get that bit of data back.
(Counterintuitively, the delicate surface of an optical disc is the top,
not the bottom.)

3) Try applying a self-adhesive paper label to the top of the disc to
increase its opacity. This has worked for me in the past with failing
recorded CDs.

You could try reading it using a Linux live CD and dd_rescue, which I
suggested in a reply to another post of yours a while ago re. a hard
disc with bad sectors.

--
:: je suis Charlie :: yo soy Charlie :: ik ben Charlie ::

In article ,
says...

In message , pjp
writes:
[]
I think you'll find the pc's OS isn't doing anything at that point. It's
the firmware on the drive itself trying to determine if there's an
optical disk in the drive and what type. It "sees something" but is
failing in determining exactly what it is. Note - it has to figure out
dvd (+ & -), dvd rw (+ & -) dual layer versions of same, maybe it's a cd
or cd-rw instead. It's my undertanding they all require a different
laser frequency. I also think it's only after firmware determines a disk
is present does it then pass along some signal to the OS a disk has been
inserted and at that point the OS accesses the disk for the first time.

Take a known bad disk put it in, betcha it acts the same.

I'm sure you're right (and that would explain why DVD video players have
a problem too). But it takes many minutes to make its mid up )-:. Now,
if there were some way to _tell_ it (a) it's a DVD+R (b) _don't_ try to
access it until I tell you to! ...

As I said, it's automatic and built into the firmware as part and parcel
of the "package". I'm sure it's done this way to conform to some
specification for how optical drives interface the pc. I betcha it would
even do the same thing if you unplugged it from a pc and just gave the
drive power separately, don't think it'd even need the "data" side of
the cable just the power.

(IB=IsoBuster)

In message , "J. P. Gilliver
(John)" writes:
In message , philo
writes:

Oops - as soom as mouse cursor is within the IB window, changes to the
circle - i. e. IB is busy. I try clicking on Refresh anyway - window
goes pale, and title bar gets "(Not Responding)" appended.

The IB window flickers every few seconds. About one in three flickers,
the (Not Responding) disappears, only to reappear next flicker. The
window panes inside IB are blank, though, i. e. it hasn't found anything.

I'll leave it for an hour maybe (depending whether I think anything is
happening), and report back. But I'm not hopeful: the fact that IB
didn't even start properly when I tried to start it with the DVD in
doesn't, IMO, bode well.

Ah - after what must have been ten or twenty minutes, it is showing an
open session, containing 15 tracks, and a window has popped up over
them: "No file-systems nor files and folders could be found. [So what is
the open session and the 15 tracks, whose LBA and size are shown in the
right pane?] Assuming you are looking for certain (missing) files, we
suggest you run the option "find mussing files and folders"".

At least the drive light has stopped flashing.

I'll work with this.



Does not look too promising but who knows....

Well, the various pop-up windows are far from intuitive, but one of the
things it suggested was make an image of the disc on the HD, which it
can then attack much more quickly. (Though one of the help pages
suggested that that wouldn't achieve anything - if it didn't find any
files on the DVD, it won't in the image. But maybe that's for looking
for files in the non-audioCD/videoDVD sense, i. e. a data disc.)
Anyway, I've told it to do that: a little window headed Extracting
Image is bobbing up and down every few seconds, containing the text "DVD +R
Track 01" (the window behind it suggests there are 15 tracks). On
alternate bobs, the little window title gets "(Not Responding)" added
to its title (and then removed).
In the window behind, where it lists the 15 tracks (and their LBA and
size), it has put a red cross next to Track 01, but not any of the
others; I'm hoping it will eventually give up on Track 01, and copy the
rest OK. (Perhaps Track 01 is where the original recorder was keeping a
temporary directory of all the other tracks, against the time when it
would eventually have finalised the disc? Yes, I know DVD+R is only
write-once, but the recorder must do that _some_where!)

Now, nearly two hours after I wrote the above, it's been doing "Track
02" for a while (I didn't notice when it changed). It has also added a
red cross next to Track 02 in the behind window (though it still seems
to be copying [?] it).

I was going to say what's really puzzling me is that it doesn't seem to
be accessing the DVD drive much - but I looked, and the LED is still
flickering away quite a lot, and holding the laptop to my ear I _think_
the drive is whirring (difficult to tell, could be the fan and/or HD). I
haven't heard any head movement from it for a while, though.

going to be an overnight job, obviously - possibly longer (-:! _Maybe_
the whole disc surface is corrupt - though IsoBuster does seem to have
extracted, from _some_where on it, the fact that it has 15 "Track"s (in
"Open Session 1"), and their sizes and LBAs.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"You know what they say. In London you're never more than ten feet away from a
lying politician." The Downing Street rat, "quoted" by Rod Liddle in Radio
Times, 12-18 February 2011

In message , pjp
writes:
In article ,
says...
[]
I'm sure you're right (and that would explain why DVD video players have
a problem too). But it takes many minutes to make its mid up )-:. Now,
if there were some way to _tell_ it (a) it's a DVD+R (b) _don't_ try to
access it until I tell you to! ...

As I said, it's automatic and built into the firmware as part and parcel
of the "package". I'm sure it's done this way to conform to some
specification for how optical drives interface the pc. I betcha it would
even do the same thing if you unplugged it from a pc and just gave the
drive power separately, don't think it'd even need the "data" side of
the cable just the power.

I do have an external DVD drive (with its own power supply if I can
remember where I put it; it's normally powered from the couple of USB
plugs, but you are supposed to use the external supply if doing a
lightscribe disc, which I've never had/done). If I still have the will
to live after IsoBurn has done its best (and I suspect failed), I might
try what you suggest - as well as with some known good DVDs (and CDs).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"You know what they say. In London you're never more than ten feet away from a
lying politician." The Downing Street rat, "quoted" by Rod Liddle in Radio
Times, 12-18 February 2011

On Sat, 21 Feb 2015 15:04:25 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

I have a corrupted DVD - made on a DVD recorder, years ago, so it's
never been written to with a PC.

From time to time, I try it in a PC (XP or 7), to see if I can get
anything off it.

Usually, it makes the PC go very sluggish, or even stop altogether. It's
currently in my W7 machine, where it has been for the last half hour or
possibly hour (I didn't note). Nothing is running on that PC, other than
Explorer, which is showing the hard drive partitions, and also in the
_right_ pane shows the DVD drive, but just the letter - for the HD
partitions it shows their name, letter, and a bar and text showing how
full/empty they are. In the _left_ pane it shows the HD partitions but
not the DVD drive - as if it wasn't there. *But the LED on the DVD drive
is flickering constantly*. From time to time - meaning at intervals of
several minutes - I hear the (DVD) drive head move.

I _presume_ what's happening is the OS has detected that the drive was
closed, and is trying to read the disc, and failing. Yes, I have autorun
turned off, and the system set to do nothing for virtually any kind of
media - including DVD - being inserted. But it's still trying to read
the disc. (If I put in another video DVD, after a minute or less it
shows up as having a name, 0 bytes free, and the three folders DVDs have
- TS_VIDEO or something like that, and two others. I've actually seen
the dud DVD show those _once_ today.)

Does anyone know of a combination of:
1. a way to stop the DVD drive _at all_ trying to read a disc (under OS
control, of course), until
2. anything that will do a bitstream dump from the DVD drive (obviously
this would have to start reading)?

I've tried reading this disc in various DVD players, too: in most cases
it locks _them_ up for a significant time, and they then say no disc or
bad disc, or similar. It seems there's something intrinsic to the DVD
format that has this effect. If I was even more cynical than I am, I'd
say it is to do with copy-protection and so on, but I'm not quite there
yet. (This is a disc _I_ made, recording from camera inputs, so has
never been anywhere near any copyright - or even broadcast - material.)

That LED is still flickering away (accompanied by the occasional
head-movement noise ...)

Here is my idea...

Was the DVD finalized at the end of the recording process?

Can you put it in the original recorder and try to finalize it?

Or maybe this will help:

http://diyvideoeditor.com/step-by-st...zed-dvd-discs/

I found that with Google, but I haven't read it :-)

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On 02/21/2015 12:55 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:



I was going to say what's really puzzling me is that it doesn't seem to
be accessing the DVD drive much - but I looked, and the LED is still
flickering away quite a lot, and holding the laptop to my ear I _think_
the drive is whirring (difficult to tell, could be the fan and/or HD). I
haven't heard any head movement from it for a while, though.

going to be an overnight job, obviously - possibly longer (-:! _Maybe_
the whole disc surface is corrupt - though IsoBuster does seem to have
extracted, from _some_where on it, the fact that it has 15 "Track"s (in
"Open Session 1"), and their sizes and LBAs.



Guess you will eventually find out...looks like it's searching though

In message , philo
writes:
On 02/21/2015 12:55 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:



I was going to say what's really puzzling me is that it doesn't seem to
be accessing the DVD drive much - but I looked, and the LED is still
flickering away quite a lot, and holding the laptop to my ear I _think_
the drive is whirring (difficult to tell, could be the fan and/or HD). I
haven't heard any head movement from it for a while, though.

going to be an overnight job, obviously - possibly longer (-:! _Maybe_
the whole disc surface is corrupt - though IsoBuster does seem to have
extracted, from _some_where on it, the fact that it has 15 "Track"s (in
"Open Session 1"), and their sizes and LBAs.



Guess you will eventually find out...looks like it's searching though

It's now on Track 03, which it's been on for several hours. (And has put
a red cross beside Tracks 01, 02, _and_ 03.) At this rate, I think it
may take a week or two - I might just let it, out of curiosity!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I never get invited anywhere by people who know me, because they know me.
- Eddie Mair, RT 2014/8/30-/9/5

In message , Gene E. Bloch
writes:
[]
Here is my idea...

Was the DVD finalized at the end of the recording process?

No; the disc played up just before I'd filled it.

Can you put it in the original recorder and try to finalize it?

Unfortunately, the original recorder died too.

Or maybe this will help:

http://diyvideoeditor.com/step-by-st...unfinalized-dv
d-discs/

I found that with Google, but I haven't read it :-)

I'll give it a look, thanks.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I never get invited anywhere by people who know me, because they know me.
- Eddie Mair, RT 2014/8/30-/9/5