If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Rate Thread | Display Modes |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Build 1074 feels like Linux
Joel wrote:
"Joel" wrote in message ... This machine it's slow to open applications and fast to close. That's why I prefer older Windows versions, they are much smoother. And it's becoming darker interface like Linux. People usually don't have 16 GB Ram systems where we could reserve more than 2 GB for Windows 10. These days, normal users have 5400 rpm hard disk on their laptop and the manufactures are selling atom processors with 32 GB flash drives and 1 or 2 max GB Ram on affordable netbooks and tablets. How they expect we could upgrade to Windows 10? In older days hardware had faster evolution than software. Major affordable machines were quite enough to run modern software changes. But now they are saving in hardware with the excuse we need to go mobile and software is growing more in size and requisites. Even actual Linux Os's need better machines. With these netbooks, tablets and other smart technologies we can't increase the hardware components because they are hermetic and when something gets broken we have to buy a new one. Please don't interpret this as a complaint. I'm just giving my opinion about facts. I think it's not a good move to upgrade to win 10 a 5 years old machine. I forgot to say that this opinion appears after booting. If I play a little bit more, Ram begins its work of taking care of the system and things goes a little more smooth. If you played a little bit more, you would run "cleanmgr.exe" as Administrator, and remove Windows.old. You will find the OS a bit smoother after completing that step. That advice applies to installing Win10 Preview upgrades, over the existing Win10 Preview partition. If you're installing 10074 for the very first time (no Windows on the disk when you start), then it really shouldn't be that slow. When you buy or accept a free upgrade offer for Windows 10, don't be in quite such a rush to use "cleanmgr" and remove Windows.old. Make sure in that case, that any important files in Windows.old, are stored elsewhere. ******* It's unclear at this time, how a WIM-boot tablet will get upgraded, and what leftover file system will exist when it is finished. The advice on those could well be different. Paul |
Ads |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Build 1074 feels like Linux
On 2015-06-10 3:48 PM, T wrote:
On 06/10/2015 09:53 AM, GreyCloud wrote: Stef wrote: Joel wrote: "Roger Blake" wrote in message ... On 2015-06-10, Joel wrote: This machine it's slow to open applications and fast to close. That's why I prefer older Windows versions, they are much smoother. And it's becoming darker interface like Linux. There is no single "Linux user interface." Linux users have the choice of quite a few, some very much like Windows, some like nothing else on Earth. I use Xfce myself which has a pretty traditional look and feel, and would hardly describe it as "dark." The command console is usually black as ms-dos. I know Linux users can change the wallpaper and configure the looks. You can have both on same machine, there is a lot of options to do with those. Only thing I don't understand is why they say Linux is safer and open source. Should be closed and safer. With Linux you can change everything or just about. Well, even "just about" can be changed, but you have to get into the code and recompile it which you can't do with proprietary "closed" software. And that's one of the reasons that makes Linux "safer:" you can check the code for "bad" things, edit them out, and recompile. Or fix errors. Or alter the app to suit your needs. That may be as one that can and understand linux and where the config files are, but for the rest of the people, linux will be almost impossible for them to configure without going to some school or class. If their wi-fi connection doesn't work, what would you think their first reaction to this will be? Dell has tried to sell PCs with linux preinstalled and so has HP. Their efforts were ignored by the public and soon the PCs were pulled from the market place. The real problem is computing stagnation. Even HPs CEO recognizes this and is trying to do something about this. Kind of reminds me of the 70s and CP/M and S-100 boxes. That market stagnated as well. When IBM came out with something new, the PC, the CP/M almost died overnight. Hi GreyCloud, What ?!?!?!?! I do this stuff all the time. I can use command line or the build-in GIU utilties. Linux is as easy, if not easier, to configure that Windows! I am constantly using my Live USB and direct USB to troubleshoot Windows machines. And, on live media the wireless works spectacularly! So does printer-config! I think you are remember about 10 years ago. Here is a link to Fedora Core 22's Live Media. You should burn a bunch of them and see for yourself: https://spins.fedoraproject.org/ By the way, good luck telling KDE4 apart from Windows 7 (Windows 7 ripped off KDE4). Just for fun, I wanted to see how well Linux "just works" on the machine I own, an MSI GT72 2QD Dominator. If I install Linux on it: - The wireless won't work because the chip is too recent - The operating system won't allow me to switch from the integrated (Intel HD 4600) graphics to the GPU (NVIDIA GTX 970M) at all. I have to make this switch within Windows - The illuminated keyboard doesn't work at all. - If I use NVIDIA's proprietary driver for the GTX 970M, I can look forward to a constantly shimmering image. https://askubuntu.com/questions/565835/integrated-graphics-shows-shimmering-display & https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=250805.0 In other words, your toiletware doesn't "just work," it's "just annoys the **** out of the user." Stop promoting the piece of garbage some pre-teens coded in-between 7th grade classes. Windows works, Linux doesn't. -- Slimer Proud "wintroll" Encrypt. |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Build 1074 feels like Linux
Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jun 2015 16:07:22 +0100, "Joel" wrote: This machine it's slow to open applications and fast to close. That's why I prefer older Windows versions, they are much smoother. And it's becoming darker interface like Linux. People usually don't have 16 GB Ram systems where we could reserve more than 2 GB for Windows 10. These days, normal users have 5400 rpm hard disk on their laptop and the manufactures are selling atom processors with 32 GB flash drives and 1 or 2 max GB Ram on affordable netbooks and tablets. How they expect we could upgrade to Windows 10? In older days hardware had faster evolution than software. Major affordable machines were quite enough to run modern software changes. But now they are saving in hardware with the excuse we need to go mobile and software is growing more in size and requisites. Even actual Linux Os's need better machines. With these netbooks, tablets and other smart technologies we can't increase the hardware components because they are hermetic and when something gets broken we have to buy a new one. Please don't interpret this as a complaint. I'm just giving my opinion about facts. I think it's not a good move to upgrade to win 10 a 5 years old machine. I recently bought an old laptop to mess about with. I fitted a 120GB SSD (it had no drive when I got it) and have tried installing various systems on it, including Windows 10. Build 10074 installs and runs perfectly, and surprisingly quickly for an old machine, but nothing I can do will get it to accept 10130, either directly from a DVD created from the ISO, or by provoking the online upgrade. It just goes into endless loop of showing the little trapezoid window symbol and then rebooting. My other test computer is fine with it, so it's evidently an incompatibility that only affects some machines - but how many I wonder? Will it be fixed in the next build, or will some people find their computers rendered useless on July 29? Time will tell. The laptop claims to have a Celeron processor running at 1.66GHz, and when I got it had only 2GB memory, but it boots and runs Windows 10 fast enough not to feel sluggish at all. Upgrading the memory to 4GB (the most it can handle apparently) made a slight improvement to Windows and none at all to Mint, which was fast anyway, and Build 10130 still doesn't install. So it looks as though with a bit of judicious spending (SSD and a bit more memory) Windows 10 could possibly liven up an old computer to the point of actual usefulness, certainly beyond its performance with Vista, which is what my test laptop had originally. I've used Vista on laptops of this vintage, and as I recall it could be dire, but I could almost live with 10 on this one, if I had to, or if it was free. Rod. Pull a stick of RAM out of it, and repeat the exercise. The BIOS "PNP OS" setting should be [No] for modern Windows. In some cases, the BIOS gets the address map wrong, when defining segments for all the hardware and the RAM. On one Asus board, when 4GB of RAM is installed, the USB controller block gets a bad address defined for it, and "USB overcurrent" appears printed on the screen. There can be subtle errors when an older system is bumped to "max RAM", and the chipset has no memory hoisting, and the BIOS isn't clever enough to figure out how to handle a bonanza of RAM. If the installation will finish, then you try placing the extra RAM back in the machine. And it will likely work at that point. If you do an inline upgrade, look for a log file. It isn't likely to identify the culprit, but you never know what you might find there. When an upgrade installs, the log fills with the "backout steps", so the trigger event may not be the very last line in the file. Paul |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Build 1074 feels like Linux
On Wed, 10 Jun 2015 18:08:28 -0400, Paul wrote:
I recently bought an old laptop to mess about with. I fitted a 120GB SSD (it had no drive when I got it) and have tried installing various systems on it, including Windows 10. Build 10074 installs and runs perfectly, and surprisingly quickly for an old machine, but nothing I can do will get it to accept 10130, either directly from a DVD created from the ISO, or by provoking the online upgrade. It just goes into endless loop of showing the little trapezoid window symbol and then rebooting. My other test computer is fine with it, so it's evidently an incompatibility that only affects some machines - but how many I wonder? Will it be fixed in the next build, or will some people find their computers rendered useless on July 29? Time will tell. The laptop claims to have a Celeron processor running at 1.66GHz, and when I got it had only 2GB memory, but it boots and runs Windows 10 fast enough not to feel sluggish at all. Upgrading the memory to 4GB (the most it can handle apparently) made a slight improvement to Windows and none at all to Mint, which was fast anyway, and Build 10130 still doesn't install. [...] Pull a stick of RAM out of it, and repeat the exercise. The BIOS "PNP OS" setting should be [No] for modern Windows. In some cases, the BIOS gets the address map wrong, when defining segments for all the hardware and the RAM. On one Asus board, when 4GB of RAM is installed, the USB controller block gets a bad address defined for it, and "USB overcurrent" appears printed on the screen. There can be subtle errors when an older system is bumped to "max RAM", and the chipset has no memory hoisting, and the BIOS isn't clever enough to figure out how to handle a bonanza of RAM. It wouldn't install on the original 2GB before I swapped it. I get the same effect with either 2GB or 4GB, whether installing 10130 from the DVD or upgrading 10074 to 10130 online. If the installation will finish, then you try placing the extra RAM back in the machine. And it will likely work at that point. The installation doesn't even start. After it's been round the loop so many times I've got bored with it and switched it off, I go to clear the disk (using Gparted) to try again (or try something else) and find that it's still completely blank. The Windows installation hasn't even got as far as formatting it. If you do an inline upgrade, look for a log file. It isn't likely to identify the culprit, but you never know what you might find there. When an upgrade installs, the log fills with the "backout steps", so the trigger event may not be the very last line in the file. To be honest, I don't think I really care enough to bother. Writing software that works is a job for the software writers, not me, and I've got better things to do with the rest of my time. I'll wait and see what the next build does. Every other system I've tried on this laptop works just fine. Rod. |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Build 1074 feels like Linux
In article ,
Gene Wirchenko wrote: On Wed, 10 Jun 2015 10:53:44 -0600, GreyCloud wrote: [snip] The real problem is computing stagnation. Even HPs CEO recognizes this and is trying to do something about this. Kind of reminds me of the 70s and CP/M and S-100 boxes. That market stagnated as well. When IBM came out with something new, the PC, the CP/M almost died overnight. Ah, no. The Z-80 had been taken about as far as it could go with general-purpose systems. That is why the IBM pc took over. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko The IBM PC took over because it had the IBM logo on it, which businesses regarded as making personal computers legitimate. The 8080 CPU didn't do much the Z-80 did, while it was 16 bit internally, it was choked down to 8-bit externally. IBM had the opportunity to select the 68000 family. It was superior to the Intel architecture, but IBM decided Motorola couldn't provide enough, if I recall correctly. I wish they'd gone with the 68000, Motorola already had both 16 and 32-bit versions which would run common code with the 68008. Ah, the good old days, when there was more than one processor architecture. Gone is the National Semi 3232, the RCA 1802, the Motorola 6800 and 68000, the 6502 family, the Fairchild F8, the TI 9900. I'm sure at least one of you out there has heard of a few of them. The rest of you were born to late. :-) Gary |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Build 1074 feels like Linux
On 2015-06-11, Gary Heston wrote:
I'm sure at least one of you out there has heard of a few of them. The rest of you were born to late. :-) Microprocessors are for newbies. ;-) If you don't have 36 bits you're not playing with a full DEC. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.) NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Build 1074 feels like Linux
On 2015-06-10, Slimer wrote:
Stop promoting the piece of garbage some pre-teens coded in-between 7th grade classes. Windows works, Linux doesn't. Windows is crap. TOPS-20 is the bomb. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.) NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Build 1074 feels like Linux
In article ,
Roger Blake wrote: On 2015-06-11, Gary Heston wrote: I'm sure at least one of you out there has heard of a few of them. The rest of you were born to late. :-) Microprocessors are for newbies. ;-) If you don't have 36 bits you're not playing with a full DEC. I have a VAX 6210 and a 6220 in the garage, along with a few VAXStations, and an IBM System 7 (no relation to Windows or PCs). And an ASR33 for the 7's console. I collect old computers. Gary |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Build 1074 feels like Linux
On 2015-06-11, Gary Heston wrote:
I have a VAX 6210 and a 6220 in the garage, along with a few VAXStations, and an IBM System 7 (no relation to Windows or PCs). And an ASR33 for the 7's console. I collect old computers. Sounds great! I used to have a DEC PRO 380 and a MicroVAX II but they went by the wayside a few moves ago. I used to know a guy that had one of the "smaller" DEC-20 systems running in his garage, and another with an IBM Series 1 mini. I'm ex-DEC so did a lot of work with their systems back in the day. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.) NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Build 1074 feels like Linux
GreyCloud wrote:
Stef wrote: Joel wrote: "Roger Blake" wrote in message ... On 2015-06-10, Joel wrote: This machine it's slow to open applications and fast to close. That's why I prefer older Windows versions, they are much smoother. And it's becoming darker interface like Linux. There is no single "Linux user interface." Linux users have the choice of quite a few, some very much like Windows, some like nothing else on Earth. I use Xfce myself which has a pretty traditional look and feel, and would hardly describe it as "dark." The command console is usually black as ms-dos. I know Linux users can change the wallpaper and configure the looks. You can have both on same machine, there is a lot of options to do with those. Only thing I don't understand is why they say Linux is safer and open source. Should be closed and safer. With Linux you can change everything or just about. Well, even "just about" can be changed, but you have to get into the code and recompile it which you can't do with proprietary "closed" software. And that's one of the reasons that makes Linux "safer:" you can check the code for "bad" things, edit them out, and recompile. Or fix errors. Or alter the app to suit your needs. That may be as one that can and understand linux and where the config files are, but for the rest of the people, linux will be almost impossible for them to configure without going to some school or class. If their wi-fi connection doesn't work, what would you think their first reaction to this will be? Linux isn't for everyone. And it takes relearning. But Windows users who try it, for some reason, expect it to be Windows, look like Windows, and work like Windows. Why? I don't know. But they do. And they quickly become frustrated and give up. You don't need to go to school or class to learn Linux. I didn't. Completely self taught. And my educational background isn't computers. In fact, ALL my computer expertise I learned from books, HOWTOs, research, and doing. So, if I can do it, anyone can. If they try. Most don't. Too much work. They want it easy. Everything handed to them in a nice neat pretty package. A sad commentary on the state of contemporary education. And its failure. No one is taught to think anymore. What do Windows people do when the wifi doesn't work? They call tech support. A Linux user will find out why it doesn't work and fix it. Dell has tried to sell PCs with linux preinstalled and so has HP. Their efforts were ignored by the public and soon the PCs were pulled from the market place. Linux (Ubuntu, I think) still available on Dells, and HPs, too. Lenovos as well. They just make it hard to find on their web sites. Probably due to pressure from Microsoft. But it's there. The real problem is computing stagnation. Even HPs CEO recognizes this and is trying to do something about this. Kind of reminds me of the 70s and CP/M and S-100 boxes. That market stagnated as well. When IBM came out with something new, the PC, the CP/M almost died overnight. Microsoft and Windows have too much control over the market. That's where the stagnation lies. Why improve when you have 90% of the market? Linux, and to a certain extent Apple, are constantly changing and improving, but they have too little marketshare to have any meaningful effect. But MS has slowly been loosing ground to Linux. Mainly in the server area among businesses and governments. They're pricing themselves out of that market with outrageous licensing and fees. Stef |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Build 1074 feels like Linux
T wrote:
On 06/10/2015 09:32 AM, Stef wrote: Joel wrote: "Roger Blake" wrote in message ... On 2015-06-10, Joel wrote: This machine it's slow to open applications and fast to close. That's why I prefer older Windows versions, they are much smoother. And it's becoming darker interface like Linux. There is no single "Linux user interface." Linux users have the choice of quite a few, some very much like Windows, some like nothing else on Earth. I use Xfce myself which has a pretty traditional look and feel, and would hardly describe it as "dark." The command console is usually black as ms-dos. I know Linux users can change the wallpaper and configure the looks. You can have both on same machine, there is a lot of options to do with those. Only thing I don't understand is why they say Linux is safer and open source. Should be closed and safer. With Linux you can change everything or just about. Well, even "just about" can be changed, but you have to get into the code and recompile it which you can't do with proprietary "closed" software. And that's one of the reasons that makes Linux "safer:" you can check the code for "bad" things, edit them out, and recompile. Or fix errors. Or alter the app to suit your needs. Stef Hi Stef, By "dark", I think he means "weird". That would be Gnome, which has gotten really, really W-I-E-R-D. But, he has about a bazillion other choices. My favorite is Xfce. Gets the job done and gets out of your way. I don't care for the "OS as playground" GUI's". (Apple drives me nuts!) I stopped using GNOME years ago when they first released 3. Wouldn't run on my system. Old graphics card. And I didn't need 3D artsy-fartsy graphics anyway. Waste of CPU cycles. I now just use a window manager and a panel. Low overhead. Allows me to run a "modern" Linux on a mostly 5 to 8 year old system with no performance problems. Even run Adobe Photoshop and ACR in Windows XP in a VM with no problems. Stef |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Build 1074 feels like Linux
On 06/10/2015 10:00 PM, Stef wrote:
Linux isn't for everyone. And it takes relearning. But Windows users who try it, for some reason, expect it to be Windows, look like Windows, and work like Windows. Why? I don't know. But they do. And they quickly become frustrated and give up. Hi Stef, I think it is because the are afraid that they are not like everyone else. Lets face it, XP/W7 to the Frankenstein Family (w8 and w10) is a HUGE learning curve. All of my customers (who failed to ask me) that got Frankenstein (w8) were almost in tears. Far less of a learning curve that Linux. This is why I think that it is about conformity and not relearning. -T “Conformity-the natural instinct to passively yield to that vague something recognized as authority” -- Mark Twain |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Build 1074 feels like Linux
On 06/10/2015 10:01 PM, Stef wrote:
T wrote: On 06/10/2015 09:32 AM, Stef wrote: Joel wrote: "Roger Blake" wrote in message ... On 2015-06-10, Joel wrote: This machine it's slow to open applications and fast to close. That's why I prefer older Windows versions, they are much smoother. And it's becoming darker interface like Linux. There is no single "Linux user interface." Linux users have the choice of quite a few, some very much like Windows, some like nothing else on Earth. I use Xfce myself which has a pretty traditional look and feel, and would hardly describe it as "dark." The command console is usually black as ms-dos. I know Linux users can change the wallpaper and configure the looks. You can have both on same machine, there is a lot of options to do with those. Only thing I don't understand is why they say Linux is safer and open source. Should be closed and safer. With Linux you can change everything or just about. Well, even "just about" can be changed, but you have to get into the code and recompile it which you can't do with proprietary "closed" software. And that's one of the reasons that makes Linux "safer:" you can check the code for "bad" things, edit them out, and recompile. Or fix errors. Or alter the app to suit your needs. Stef Hi Stef, By "dark", I think he means "weird". That would be Gnome, which has gotten really, really W-I-E-R-D. But, he has about a bazillion other choices. My favorite is Xfce. Gets the job done and gets out of your way. I don't care for the "OS as playground" GUI's". (Apple drives me nuts!) I stopped using GNOME years ago when they first released 3. Wouldn't run on my system. Old graphics card. And I didn't need 3D artsy-fartsy graphics anyway. Waste of CPU cycles. I now just use a window manager and a panel. Low overhead. Allows me to run a "modern" Linux on a mostly 5 to 8 year old system with no performance problems. Even run Adobe Photoshop and ACR in Windows XP in a VM with no problems. Stef Hi Stef, Gnome has gotten so very, very W-E-I-R-D. I prefer Xfce. Those that love W7 will have a hard time telling it apart from KDE4. (KDE4 was so buggy for the longest while, but they have finally fix their stuff.) Photoshop? Have you looked at InkScape? You can run it in Linux: https://inkscape.org/en/ -T |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Build 1074 feels like Linux
On Thu, 11 Jun 2015 05:00:56 +0000 (UTC), Stef
wrote: Linux isn't for everyone. And it takes relearning. But Windows users who try it, for some reason, expect it to be Windows, look like Windows, and work like Windows. Why? I don't know. But they do. And they quickly become frustrated and give up. They expect it because Windows is the only system they know, so it's what they're accustomed to. Fortunately, some recent Linux versions are very similar to Windows (presumably with the above in mind) so the amount of relearning need not be very great, probably no greater than the amount of relearning needed to use a Mac. It's a shame more people don't know this. You don't need to go to school or class to learn Linux. I didn't. Completely self taught. And my educational background isn't computers. In fact, ALL my computer expertise I learned from books, HOWTOs, research, and doing. So, if I can do it, anyone can. If they try. Most don't. Too much work. They want it easy. Everything handed to them in a nice neat pretty package. A sad commentary on the state of contemporary education. And its failure. No one is taught to think anymore. I couldn't agree more. Formal education doesn't teach very much that's actually useful in the real world at all. If you want to know how to do something with any piece of modern technology, it's best to find out as much as you can yourself. Rod. |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Build 1074 feels like Linux
On Wed, 10 Jun 2015 13:47:29 -0600, GreyCloud
wrote: Gene Wirchenko wrote: On Wed, 10 Jun 2015 10:53:44 -0600, GreyCloud wrote: [snip] The real problem is computing stagnation. Even HPs CEO recognizes this and is trying to do something about this. Kind of reminds me of the 70s and CP/M and S-100 boxes. That market stagnated as well. When IBM came out with something new, the PC, the CP/M almost died overnight. Ah, no. The Z-80 had been taken about as far as it could go with general-purpose systems. That is why the IBM pc took over. There were 8086 CP/M computers just before IBM came out with their PC. I remember the one in Seattle that Bill Gates bought out. That's why in the beginning there was MS dos and CP/M for the IBM PC. Microsoft bought the OS (QDOS), not the computers. Convergent Technologies had an 8086 series of systems, too. Nice computers. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | Rate This Thread |
|
|