PC camera at top of 20-foot pole, wired or wireless?

On Wed, 16 Jul 2014 18:57:20 -0400, micky
wrote:

I want to attach a video camera to the top of a 20 foot pole and see
what the camera sees.


A Wired: I have an old USB camera, never used, and it won't install
right now (but that's a separate topic) Assuming I can install it, it
has a 6' cord. Is it likely I'll be able to attach a 20' extension USB
cord and still get the same quality picture? Or a decent picture at
all?

First I need to install the wired camera I have already.

Not being too vain or having anyone to video skype with, I had never
installed this camera. First I had to find it, and then I couldn't find
any drivers online -- although one or more that claimed to be the one
had a virus in it -- but today I finally found the CD that came with
the camera, and yet I'm having a lot of trouble getting the camera to
work. (even with a 6 foot cord, let alone 20 feet!)

The CD is good for win 98 SE, Me, 2000 and XP and I have XP SP3. It's
called Webcam Basic, IC50C Software. I already searched online for
IC50C and that's how I bumped into the virus, which AVG caught**.

The CD offered to install the driver and 3 software packages. I chose
only the driver. Do you think that could cause a problem later, maybe
becaues of an error on their part?

Anyhow, I installed and then repair installed the driver. The second
time at least I got a message that it completed. And I restarted the
computer.

It found the camera and brought up the new hardware wizard, but no
matter what choices I make, it can't find the driver.

I let it install Automatically, but it didnt' find the driver.

So I pointed it to a variety of specific locations:

I let it look in the Camera CD, and in the Camera CD Driver\XP
directory, but there is no .INF file there, only the EXE file that the
driver installation process started off with.

I pointed it to C:\Windows\INF and
" \drivers

I pointed it to its first choice, Removeable Media, but based on the
lights that went on, it looked only in the floppy drive and not the CD
drive with the Webcam CD in it.

I let it look onlline (even though I had done so by hand already).

I let it look by Hardware Type, and I noticed there was no entry for
Cameras. (How come?) There were Imaging Devices (what are they?) but
choosing that came up with no entries. "Unable to find drivers for this
device":

It always ends up at Cannot Install this Hardware

Have I forgotten how to do this?

The CD looks pristine.

Should I go back and install all 3 programs, Presto Mr. Photo,
VideoWorks, and ImageFolio? I only checked the box for Driver the
first two times. That's the only idea I have left.

Thanks



**I also found a lot of people looking for this driver, although I
didnt' keep a record of when they were looking. Once it actually works
for me, I'd be glad to upload it, but not to the download place that
offered me a virus and I've lost track of reliable driver download
places that want uploads. Suggestions?

Then there is the question of what to send them. Just the 8 Meg .exe
file, SETUP.exe? For XP.


The company, Micro Innovations, http://www.microinv.com , may have
turned into Digital Innovatoins but I don't think they know about the
old products and they're closed on the weekend. They list about 4
webcams but only one has a download offered. I guess for the others,
they expect the driver to come with windows?

On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 22:41:38 -0400, micky
wrote:



Should I go back and install all 3 programs, Presto Mr. Photo,
VideoWorks, and ImageFolio? I only checked the box for Driver the
first two times. That's the only idea I have left.

They give another link for the software and it's still running and
maintaining all three programs, so since it's a different company, not
with a similar name even, those programs most likely have nothing to do
with the driver for the hardware, I would think.

So now I'm out of ideas entirely.

FTR http://www.newsoftinc.com ,

micky wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 22:41:38 -0400, micky
wrote:


Should I go back and install all 3 programs, Presto Mr. Photo,
VideoWorks, and ImageFolio? I only checked the box for Driver the
first two times. That's the only idea I have left.

They give another link for the software and it's still running and
maintaining all three programs, so since it's a different company, not
with a similar name even, those programs most likely have nothing to do
with the driver for the hardware, I would think.

So now I'm out of ideas entirely.

FTR http://www.newsoftinc.com ,


Fun times.

The virus thing with webcam drivers is "normal".
I've run into virus problems, even with drivers
coming from the purported manufacturer's site.

You could use Uwe Sieber's USB tool to list the camera
first. I can't guarantee anything, but maybe it's possible
to determine whether it's a UVC camera or not.

http://www.uwe-sieber.de/files/usbtreeview.zip

A camera consists of a controller and a sensor. And
you can mix different sensors with the same controller.
Which is what makes drivers for non-UVC cameras such fun.

A UVC camera can use a Microsoft driver for basic operation.

Then you need a copy of AMCAP for testing.
This message got a little messed up while I was
preparing it.

http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi...nt-email.me%3E

You want the ZIP file wdmmiscutils2.73.zip and if
you unzip that, there should be an AMCAP in there.
Which will allow viewing webcam output if the
webcam has a driver in place (either Microsoft
built-in or something proprietary that works).

http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/b...3.zip?download

AMCAP started as Microsoft sample code. People made
their own versions, some of which will have malware
in them. So you don't go searching for an AMCAP
with your search engine, without a recommendation
from someone for a "safe" one. I use the above
AMCAP with my cameras, such as they are.

Paul

micky wrote:
On Wed, 16 Jul 2014 18:57:20 -0400, micky
wrote:

I want to attach a video camera to the top of a 20 foot pole and see
what the camera sees.


A Wired: I have an old USB camera, never used, and it won't install
right now (but that's a separate topic) Assuming I can install it, it
has a 6' cord. Is it likely I'll be able to attach a 20' extension USB
cord and still get the same quality picture? Or a decent picture at
all?

First I need to install the wired camera I have already.

Not being too vain or having anyone to video skype with, I had never
installed this camera. First I had to find it, and then I couldn't find
any drivers online -- although one or more that claimed to be the one
had a virus in it -- but today I finally found the CD that came with
the camera, and yet I'm having a lot of trouble getting the camera to
work. (even with a 6 foot cord, let alone 20 feet!)

The CD is good for win 98 SE, Me, 2000 and XP and I have XP SP3. It's
called Webcam Basic, IC50C Software. I already searched online for
IC50C and that's how I bumped into the virus, which AVG caught**.

The CD offered to install the driver and 3 software packages. I chose
only the driver. Do you think that could cause a problem later, maybe
becaues of an error on their part?

Anyhow, I installed and then repair installed the driver. The second
time at least I got a message that it completed. And I restarted the
computer.

It found the camera and brought up the new hardware wizard, but no
matter what choices I make, it can't find the driver.

I let it install Automatically, but it didnt' find the driver.

So I pointed it to a variety of specific locations:

I let it look in the Camera CD, and in the Camera CD Driver\XP
directory, but there is no .INF file there, only the EXE file that the
driver installation process started off with.

I pointed it to C:\Windows\INF and
" \drivers

I pointed it to its first choice, Removeable Media, but based on the
lights that went on, it looked only in the floppy drive and not the CD
drive with the Webcam CD in it.

I let it look onlline (even though I had done so by hand already).

I let it look by Hardware Type, and I noticed there was no entry for
Cameras. (How come?) There were Imaging Devices (what are they?) but
choosing that came up with no entries. "Unable to find drivers for this
device":

It always ends up at Cannot Install this Hardware

Have I forgotten how to do this?

The CD looks pristine.

Should I go back and install all 3 programs, Presto Mr. Photo,
VideoWorks, and ImageFolio? I only checked the box for Driver the
first two times. That's the only idea I have left.

Thanks



**I also found a lot of people looking for this driver, although I
didnt' keep a record of when they were looking. Once it actually works
for me, I'd be glad to upload it, but not to the download place that
offered me a virus and I've lost track of reliable driver download
places that want uploads. Suggestions?

Then there is the question of what to send them. Just the 8 Meg .exe
file, SETUP.exe? For XP.


The company, Micro Innovations, http://www.microinv.com , may have
turned into Digital Innovatoins but I don't think they know about the
old products and they're closed on the weekend. They list about 4
webcams but only one has a download offered. I guess for the others,
they expect the driver to come with windows?

My 2005 A-Tech usb cam did not have any inf's.
I had to install the photo capture software which installed
about 20 dll's in xp/sys32 and one twain driver in /twain to
get it to work.

Is this a Win 98 camera? Mine will not work with later Win versions.

What is the cam resolution? That determines data volume and possibly
cable compatibility. if you app allows, then change the update rate
too.
A powered USB extension should work. i.e. one with a built-in powered
transmittter and receiver chip. I have used these at work and they
usually work as a 20ft extension.

I have found that the drivers from e.g logitech allows a cam to work
with logitech sw but i have to install all from the DVD/CD to get the
cam to other apps. A real pain. I did install all from the logitch
website download page and still the cam would not work with other apps
until i used the DVD/CD. then had to reinstall the updated apps for
logitech sw. unfortunately in my case the logitech apps just do not
do what i need. other apps do.

I installed on another PC from the DVD/cD the first time and everything
worked. so logiteh is holding out on us unless we have the original
DVD/CD. poor consumer relations if you ask me.

My other video app with the cam set for 1080P is very slow at updating
since the cam and cable and PC port is only USB2. it maxes out the
USB2 speed. waiting for a cam with true USB3 speed capabity for use
with my new USB3 laptop.

OldGuy wrote:
Is this a Win 98 camera? Mine will not work with later Win versions.

What is the cam resolution? That determines data volume and possibly
cable compatibility. if you app allows, then change the update rate too.
A powered USB extension should work. i.e. one with a built-in powered
transmittter and receiver chip. I have used these at work and they
usually work as a 20ft extension.

I have found that the drivers from e.g logitech allows a cam to work
with logitech sw but i have to install all from the DVD/CD to get the
cam to other apps. A real pain. I did install all from the logitch
website download page and still the cam would not work with other apps
until i used the DVD/CD. then had to reinstall the updated apps for
logitech sw. unfortunately in my case the logitech apps just do not do
what i need. other apps do.

I installed on another PC from the DVD/cD the first time and everything
worked. so logiteh is holding out on us unless we have the original
DVD/CD. poor consumer relations if you ask me.

My other video app with the cam set for 1080P is very slow at updating
since the cam and cable and PC port is only USB2. it maxes out the
USB2 speed. waiting for a cam with true USB3 speed capabity for use
with my new USB3 laptop.



I tried to find a true USB3 camera, and they
seem to be hard to find.

For the amusement value, this USB3 camera uses
an FPGA (for custom silicon development of the
controller), and presumably a decent Sony sensor.
It does 3376 x 2704 @ 9FPS. Which would be 240MB/sec
if completely un-encoded and transmitted in a naive manner.
You can be sure it's more efficient than that. The data
rate won't be nearly that high. $3,850.00

http://www.edmundoptics.com/imaging/...cameras/88-056

http://ww2.ptgrey.com/_PGR_Uploads/P...-datasheet.pdf

At some point, it just makes more sense to get a
regular video camera.

There was another camera design there, that does
a little better than HD - 1920 x 1200 @ 162FPS.
The picture on the left demonstrates the
global shutter feature, so there are fewer
motion artifacts. They're shooting the blade
of a fan (presumably under relatively high intensity
lighting). You won't be shooting this quality, by
moonlight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=nguv9lOkmXI

There was another company, which offered cameras with USB2,
Firewire400, and GbE (Ethernet) interfaces, and the speed
of the interface didn't seem to matter as much as the sensor
supplying the data (the GbE cameras at 125MB/sec max, weren't
amazingly good). Some of the sensors get relatively hot when
delivering 20MB/sec feeds. So the sensor end is as much of an issue,
as the I/O method. Some of the old sensors worked pretty hard
for their paltry data rates.

*******

Getting back to webcams, the reason the adverts read like this

1280x1024
30FPS

on two separate lines, is to hide the fact that the camera
actually does 640x480 @ 30FPS and 1280x1024 @ 5FPS. By
putting the FPS and the resolution on separate lines, they
seek to deceive you (the two lines have nothing to do with
one another). And... they're largely successful at this scam.
The only people who don't know this by now, are the ones
who've never bought a webcam and been screwed this way :-(
And the scam only really became apparent, when the camera
was used under Linux, and all the available options were
assembled into a list for viewing. The Windows interface
never made this info visible in tabular form. Looking at
it in Linux was an "eye opener".

Paul

On Sun, 20 Jul 2014 10:58:29 -0700, OldGuy wrote:

Is this a Win 98 camera? Mine will not work with later Win versions.

No, the CD that I found lists XP on the label.

What is the cam resolution?

I don't know.

That determines data volume and possibly
cable compatibility. if you app allows, then change the update rate
too.
A powered USB extension should work. i.e. one with a built-in powered
transmittter and receiver chip. I have used these at work and they
usually work as a 20ft extension.

Sounds like a great idea. If I need 48 feet, would you get a 16 foot
and a 32 foot, or three 16 footers?

I have found that the drivers from e.g logitech allows a cam to work
with logitech sw but i have to install all from the DVD/CD to get the
cam to other apps. A real pain. I did install all from the logitch
website download page and still the cam would not work with other apps
until i used the DVD/CD. then had to reinstall the updated apps for
logitech sw. unfortunately in my case the logitech apps just do not
do what i need. other apps do.

I don't know if this sort of thing applies to me or not. It was very
hard to get the old cheap camera working. I'll explain that somewhere.

I installed on another PC from the DVD/cD the first time and everything
worked. so logiteh is holding out on us unless we have the original
DVD/CD. poor consumer relations if you ask me.

My other video app with the cam set for 1080P is very slow at updating
since the cam and cable and PC port is only USB2. it maxes out the
USB2 speed. waiting for a cam with true USB3 speed capabity for use
with my new USB3 laptop.

I don't have anything USB3.

On Sun, 20 Jul 2014 00:45:26 -0400, Paul wrote:

micky wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 22:41:38 -0400, micky
wrote:


Should I go back and install all 3 programs, Presto Mr. Photo,
VideoWorks, and ImageFolio? I only checked the box for Driver the
first two times. That's the only idea I have left.

They give another link for the software and it's still running and
maintaining all three programs, so since it's a different company, not
with a similar name even, those programs most likely have nothing to do
with the driver for the hardware, I would think.

So now I'm out of ideas entirely.

FTR http://www.newsoftinc.com ,


Fun times.

The virus thing with webcam drivers is "normal".
I've run into virus problems, even with drivers
coming from the purported manufacturer's site.

That's encouraging. ;-(

You could use Uwe Sieber's USB tool to list the camera
first. I can't guarantee anything, but maybe it's possible
to determine whether it's a UVC camera or not.

http://www.uwe-sieber.de/files/usbtreeview.zip

Thanks. I dl'd but haven't installed it yet.

A camera consists of a controller and a sensor. And
you can mix different sensors with the same controller.
Which is what makes drivers for non-UVC cameras such fun.

A UVC camera can use a Microsoft driver for basic operation.

Then you need a copy of AMCAP for testing.
This message got a little messed up while I was
preparing it.

http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi...nt-email.me%3E

You want the ZIP file wdmmiscutils2.73.zip and if
you unzip that, there should be an AMCAP in there.
Which will allow viewing webcam output if the
webcam has a driver in place (either Microsoft
built-in or something proprietary that works).

Let me tell you about the driver. I coudln't find one on the CD, in
windows, and I looked all over the web. But eventually I looked and
found the CD for the camera.. Apparently it came on the CD, because
the directory was named Drivers, and there were subdirs for W98, 2000,
and XP (I think each had the very same file.

So I installed it, but when I plugged in the camera, it said Hardware
Found, and it still wanted the hardware installed. I looked on the PC
where .inf files could be found and it didnt' like any of them. So I
Searched the PC using Search, and it found a few more inf files
including one that came from a zip file I had dl'd when looking for the
driver.

I pointed to that and it worked and it told me to restart the computer
and the camera worked.

Isn't it unusual for some of the software to come on the CD but not all
of it?

http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/b...3.zip?download

AMCAP started as Microsoft sample code. People made
their own versions, some of which will have malware
in them. So you don't go searching for an AMCAP
with your search engine, without a recommendation
from someone for a "safe" one. I use the above
AMCAP with my cameras, such as they are.

Thanks.

Paul

On Tue, 22 Jul 2014 00:19:55 -0400, Paul wrote:

OldGuy wrote:
Is this a Win 98 camera? Mine will not work with later Win versions.

What is the cam resolution? That determines data volume and possibly
cable compatibility. if you app allows, then change the update rate too.
A powered USB extension should work. i.e. one with a built-in powered
transmittter and receiver chip. I have used these at work and they
usually work as a 20ft extension.

I have found that the drivers from e.g logitech allows a cam to work
with logitech sw but i have to install all from the DVD/CD to get the
cam to other apps. A real pain. I did install all from the logitch
website download page and still the cam would not work with other apps
until i used the DVD/CD. then had to reinstall the updated apps for
logitech sw. unfortunately in my case the logitech apps just do not do
what i need. other apps do.

I installed on another PC from the DVD/cD the first time and everything
worked. so logiteh is holding out on us unless we have the original
DVD/CD. poor consumer relations if you ask me.

My other video app with the cam set for 1080P is very slow at updating
since the cam and cable and PC port is only USB2. it maxes out the
USB2 speed. waiting for a cam with true USB3 speed capabity for use
with my new USB3 laptop.



I tried to find a true USB3 camera, and they
seem to be hard to find.

For the amusement value, this USB3 camera uses
an FPGA (for custom silicon development of the
controller), and presumably a decent Sony sensor.
It does 3376 x 2704 @ 9FPS. Which would be 240MB/sec
if completely un-encoded and transmitted in a naive manner.
You can be sure it's more efficient than that. The data
rate won't be nearly that high. $3,850.00

Wow. That's more than I want to spend.

http://www.edmundoptics.com/imaging/...cameras/88-056

http://ww2.ptgrey.com/_PGR_Uploads/P...-datasheet.pdf

At some point, it just makes more sense to get a
regular video camera.

There was another camera design there, that does
a little better than HD - 1920 x 1200 @ 162FPS.
The picture on the left demonstrates the
global shutter feature, so there are fewer
motion artifacts. They're shooting the blade
of a fan (presumably under relatively high intensity
lighting). You won't be shooting this quality, by
moonlight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=nguv9lOkmXI

There was another company, which offered cameras with USB2,
Firewire400, and GbE (Ethernet) interfaces, and the speed
of the interface didn't seem to matter as much as the sensor
supplying the data (the GbE cameras at 125MB/sec max, weren't
amazingly good). Some of the sensors get relatively hot when
delivering 20MB/sec feeds. So the sensor end is as much of an issue,
as the I/O method. Some of the old sensors worked pretty hard
for their paltry data rates.

*******

Getting back to webcams, the reason the adverts read like this

1280x1024
30FPS

on two separate lines, is to hide the fact that the camera
actually does 640x480 @ 30FPS and 1280x1024 @ 5FPS. By
putting the FPS and the resolution on separate lines, they
seek to deceive you (the two lines have nothing to do with
one another). And... they're largely successful at this scam.

I'll bet. It would have fooled me before I read this.

The only people who don't know this by now, are the ones
who've never bought a webcam and been screwed this way :-(
And the scam only really became apparent, when the camera
was used under Linux, and all the available options were
assembled into a list for viewing. The Windows interface
never made this info visible in tabular form. Looking at
it in Linux was an "eye opener".

I've had plans for more than 10 years to install Linux. I'm still
planning to.

Paul

micky wrote:


Let me tell you about the driver. I coudln't find one on the CD, in
windows, and I looked all over the web. But eventually I looked and
found the CD for the camera.. Apparently it came on the CD, because
the directory was named Drivers, and there were subdirs for W98, 2000,
and XP (I think each had the very same file.

So I installed it, but when I plugged in the camera, it said Hardware
Found, and it still wanted the hardware installed. I looked on the PC
where .inf files could be found and it didnt' like any of them. So I
Searched the PC using Search, and it found a few more inf files
including one that came from a zip file I had dl'd when looking for the
driver.

I pointed to that and it worked and it told me to restart the computer
and the camera worked.

Isn't it unusual for some of the software to come on the CD but not all
of it?

Cheap cameras come from skilled and gifted manufacturers.
Anything is possible on the CD, including putting
the wrong CD in the box with the camera :-)

Paul

On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 22:08:25 -0400, Paul wrote:

micky wrote:


Let me tell you about the driver. I coudln't find one on the CD, in
windows, and I looked all over the web. But eventually I looked and
found the CD for the camera.. Apparently it came on the CD, because
the directory was named Drivers, and there were subdirs for W98, 2000,
and XP (I think each had the very same file.

So I installed it, but when I plugged in the camera, it said Hardware
Found, and it still wanted the hardware installed. I looked on the PC
where .inf files could be found and it didnt' like any of them. So I
Searched the PC using Search, and it found a few more inf files
including one that came from a zip file I had dl'd when looking for the
driver.

I pointed to that and it worked and it told me to restart the computer
and the camera worked.

Isn't it unusual for some of the software to come on the CD but not all
of it?

Cheap cameras come from skilled and gifted manufacturers.
Anything is possible on the CD, including putting
the wrong CD in the box with the camera :-)

Good point. I should be happy I got the right CD, because the stuff on
the CD I found nowhere.


Oh, the software seems to think it's a SoC camera, whatever that means.
Sons of Columbus? Silicon-oxide Carbon? Some old Camera.

Society of Operating Cameramen, the original name for the Society of
Camera Operators,, (Probably changed the name because some girls got
jobs opereating the cameras.)

System on a chip? A real possibility, but wikip says No. . " an
integrated circuit (IC) that integrates all components of a computer or
other electronic system into a single chip" A camera would't take more
than one chip generally anyhow, iiuc.

Paul

micky wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 22:08:25 -0400, Paul wrote:

micky wrote:

Let me tell you about the driver. I coudln't find one on the CD, in
windows, and I looked all over the web. But eventually I looked and
found the CD for the camera.. Apparently it came on the CD, because
the directory was named Drivers, and there were subdirs for W98, 2000,
and XP (I think each had the very same file.

So I installed it, but when I plugged in the camera, it said Hardware
Found, and it still wanted the hardware installed. I looked on the PC
where .inf files could be found and it didnt' like any of them. So I
Searched the PC using Search, and it found a few more inf files
including one that came from a zip file I had dl'd when looking for the
driver.

I pointed to that and it worked and it told me to restart the computer
and the camera worked.

Isn't it unusual for some of the software to come on the CD but not all
of it?
Cheap cameras come from skilled and gifted manufacturers.
Anything is possible on the CD, including putting
the wrong CD in the box with the camera :-)

Good point. I should be happy I got the right CD, because the stuff on
the CD I found nowhere.


Oh, the software seems to think it's a SoC camera, whatever that means.
Sons of Columbus? Silicon-oxide Carbon? Some old Camera.

Society of Operating Cameramen, the original name for the Society of
Camera Operators,, (Probably changed the name because some girls got
jobs opereating the cameras.)

System on a chip? A real possibility, but wikip says No. . " an
integrated circuit (IC) that integrates all components of a computer or
other electronic system into a single chip" A camera would't take more
than one chip generally anyhow, iiuc.
Paul


Cameras are typically two chips. The sensor is
separate from the controller.

At least, that would be an assumption for a CCD
sensor and a CMOS controller.

Sensors are regularly CMOS now, so it does ask the
question of whether the sensor array and the controller
could be on the same silicon die, without a penalty on
the sensor properties.

And I wouldn't call it a SoC, unless a processor was
involved or something. Otherwise, it's just a single
chip with two functions on it.

Generally, sensor people don't want to design the USB
portion. Because they're sensor people, and excel at
sensor layouts, maximizing exposed portions of pixels
and so on. It would be unlike such a company, to hire
pure digital people to do a controller, implement UVC
class, or whatever.

And a search engine isn't digging up any evolutionary
evidence. But that's search engines for you. You have
to use exactly the right terms, or you'll get nothing
but garbage results returned.

Paul