MS 8.1 Update

Wolf K wrote:
On 2014-08-18 5:43 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 20:22:40 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

I don't have a business, but I do receive email messages containing
HTML junk from people who have. Whatever impact they hope this will
have is completely lost on me because I have it switched off because
it annoys me, so it looks like disjointed text with blank spaces where
the images would be. I'm sure I'm not alone in being annoyed by this.

I'm sure you're not alone, but I would think you're in a tiny and
shrinking
minority. Most people would not want to go back to plain text for email,
just as they'd not want to go back to plain text for the web.

Most people wouldn't want to go back to dial-up, or even ADSL at less
than 2Mb/s but a great many still have to use systems like this, or
pay for data via dongles. Not everybody has superfast internet.

Also, there's a big difference between email and the web in terms of
available speed. Web pages generate mostly downstream traffic, but if
you create emails with lots of extra data content it all has to go in
the upstream direction when you send them. ADSL and cable are
seriously asymmetric, with maximum upstream rates about a tenth of
downstream, so in this instance it's better to receive than to give.

If I had a business, I hope I would realise that annoying my customers
or potential customers with unwanted data was not the sort of impact I
would like to have.

You could give potential customers the option to receive plain text
or HTML,
but I suspect 99% would pick HTML. No one cares about the small
number of
plain text aficionados.

Or in other words, nobody with a fast internet connection cares about
anybody stuck with a slow one. This may be true, but it's also true,
as it always has been, that if you want to reach the maximum number of
people you have to speak in a manner they can all understand. I'd have
thought advertisers of all people would realise this.

Rod.

Demographics and socioeconomic segments. The people who are still on
dial-up etc are
a) too small a segment to bother with; and
b) the wrong segment anyhow.

have a good day,


While the population of slow internet is decreasing as infrastructure
improves...the entire ecosystem has changed in the last decade due to
global telemetry (think Asia) dwarfing those users. As an example,
average internet speed in China is approaching 4 Mbs with a goal of
20Mbs for major cities and 4Mbs rural by 2015. Throw a few billion more
people in the data set, the number of slow connections is easily
overlooked (i.e. forgotten).

With the advent of more smart devices across all populations html is a
given with common and preferred usage.

Plain text has its benefits, but in the long run it would appear that
proclaiming its benefits and value is yesterday's pipe dream.


--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 09:57:33 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:

On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 10:43:52 +0100, Roderick Stewart
wrote:

On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 20:22:40 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

You could give potential customers the option to receive plain text or HTML,
but I suspect 99% would pick HTML. No one cares about the small number of
plain text aficionados.

Or in other words, nobody with a fast internet connection cares about
anybody stuck with a slow one. This may be true, but it's also true,
as it always has been, that if you want to reach the maximum number of
people you have to speak in a manner they can all understand. I'd have
thought advertisers of all people would realise this.

If I were an advertiser, would I want to reach the maximum number of people
or would I want to promote my brand? If I can only pick one, it's going to
be to promote my brand, hands down. That's a no-brainer. Every advertiser
knows full well that plain text email carries zero impact, so there's no
reason to even think about going that route.

Bottom line, if I'm an advertiser and I'm getting ready for an email
campaign, it's going to be 100% HTML so that I can preserve, protect, and
promote my brand, and I don't care about the relatively small number of
people who I can't reach that way, regardless of the reasons why. It would
be nice to be able to reach those people, but it's mostly not worth it.
Within that minority, opinions will surely be split as to whether being
excluded is a good thing. Not everyone hates advertising.

I have a suspicion that Roderick Stewart will never agree with you.

That is his right, just as it is my right to agree with you :-)

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2014 20:22:40 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

I don't have a business, but I do receive email messages containing
HTML junk from people who have. Whatever impact they hope this will
have is completely lost on me because I have it switched off because
it annoys me, so it looks like disjointed text with blank spaces where
the images would be. I'm sure I'm not alone in being annoyed by this.

I'm sure you're not alone, but I would think you're in a tiny and shrinking
minority. Most people would not want to go back to plain text for email,
just as they'd not want to go back to plain text for the web.

Most people wouldn't want to go back to dial-up, or even ADSL at less
than 2Mb/s but a great many still have to use systems like this, or
pay for data via dongles. Not everybody has superfast internet.

Also, there's a big difference between email and the web in terms of
available speed. Web pages generate mostly downstream traffic, but if
you create emails with lots of extra data content it all has to go in
the upstream direction when you send them. ADSL and cable are
seriously asymmetric, with maximum upstream rates about a tenth of
downstream, so in this instance it's better to receive than to give.

If I had a business, I hope I would realise that annoying my customers
or potential customers with unwanted data was not the sort of impact I
would like to have.

You could give potential customers the option to receive plain text or HTML,
but I suspect 99% would pick HTML. No one cares about the small number of
plain text aficionados.

Or in other words, nobody with a fast internet connection cares about
anybody stuck with a slow one. This may be true, but it's also true,
as it always has been, that if you want to reach the maximum number of
people you have to speak in a manner they can all understand. I'd have
thought advertisers of all people would realise this.

Rod.

Not necessarily true...advertisers only need to reach a representative
and valid statistical population (sampling) with an acceptable
correlation and error to determine what the preference of the 'others's
including the preference of the people who don't understand.

--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 09:57:33 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:


Bottom line, if I'm an advertiser and I'm getting ready for an email
campaign, it's going to be 100% HTML so that I can preserve, protect, and
promote my brand, and I don't care about the relatively small number of
people who I can't reach that way, regardless of the reasons why.

Well, just make sure you don't send it to me, thanks.

If I want to buy something I'm perfectly capable of finding out where
to buy it without somebody clogging up my internet bandwidth at my
expense. Nobody needs advertising except the advertisers.

Rod.

Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 09:57:33 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

Bottom line, if I'm an advertiser and I'm getting ready for an email
campaign, it's going to be 100% HTML so that I can preserve, protect, and
promote my brand, and I don't care about the relatively small number of
people who I can't reach that way, regardless of the reasons why.

Well, just make sure you don't send it to me, thanks.

If I want to buy something I'm perfectly capable of finding out where
to buy it without somebody clogging up my internet bandwidth at my
expense. Nobody needs advertising except the advertisers.

Rod.

With my former ISP and their promotional HTML email messages,
the HTML was used for tracking cookies and nothing else. It was
to see whether you'd opened the message or not.

The content could easily have been delivered as a PDF, as
there was nothing high impact in there. Nothing a PDF could
not have handled, and looked better in the bargain.

Paul

On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 11:11:49 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 09:57:33 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:

Bottom line, if I'm an advertiser and I'm getting ready for an email
campaign, it's going to be 100% HTML so that I can preserve, protect, and
promote my brand, and I don't care about the relatively small number of
people who I can't reach that way, regardless of the reasons why. It would
be nice to be able to reach those people, but it's mostly not worth it.
Within that minority, opinions will surely be split as to whether being
excluded is a good thing. Not everyone hates advertising.

I have a suspicion that Roderick Stewart will never agree with you.

That is his right, just as it is my right to agree with you :-)

Thanks, Gene. I'm frequently reminded of one of my favorite cartoon strips,
where the wife says to her husband, "Honey, it's late. Come to bed.", and
the husband replies, "I can't. Someone on the Internet is wrong!" :-)

On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 10:26:06 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:

On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 11:11:49 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 09:57:33 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:

Bottom line, if I'm an advertiser and I'm getting ready for an email
campaign, it's going to be 100% HTML so that I can preserve, protect, and
promote my brand, and I don't care about the relatively small number of
people who I can't reach that way, regardless of the reasons why. It would
be nice to be able to reach those people, but it's mostly not worth it.
Within that minority, opinions will surely be split as to whether being
excluded is a good thing. Not everyone hates advertising.

I have a suspicion that Roderick Stewart will never agree with you.

That is his right, just as it is my right to agree with you :-)

Thanks, Gene. I'm frequently reminded of one of my favorite cartoon strips,
where the wife says to her husband, "Honey, it's late. Come to bed.", and
the husband replies, "I can't. Someone on the Internet is wrong!" :-)

LOL!

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On 08/17/2014 07:54 AM, Silver Slimer wrote:
On 2014-08-16 6:42 PM, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2014 12:41:34 -0400, Silver Slimer
wrote:

OS war! -)

There's no war, GNU/Linux has already lost. I'm generally very
open-minded about other operating systems but GNU/Linux is so
destructively awful that I have to advocate staying away from it
completely. There's no excuse for the same system and the same game
screen tearing when played in GNU/Linux, there's no excuse for a very
standard computer refusing to shut down or sleep in GNU/Linux, there's
also no excuse for one of their main desktop environments to run slow on
an i3 with 8GB of RAM.

You must simply be unlucky with the particular machine on which you've
tried to install it. I have Mint Cinnamon 17 installed on several
computers on SSDs and it boots up in seconds runs nice and smoothly.
On some I have both Windows and Linux installed as a dual boot, and on
these computers Linux always boots up and loads applications faster
than Windows.

That's awesome. I hope that they wake from sleep and manage to shut down
correctly.

As is the case with almost everybody who uses Linux.

I also hope that they don't experience screen tearing in 3D
games.

A problem that only certain hardware/driver combos run into...and
typically, when someone runs into a problem with _any_ OS, you work on
help forums to get it fixed. (Bitching about it in an advocacy group is
a dead giveaway that you're a troll, troll.)

BTW, is this a meeting place for anti-Linux trolls? I'd love to engage
more, but they don't allow themselves to be nailed down to anything, and
will simply spin and lie when cornered.

This "Silver Slimer" is especially egregious in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
living in many people's killfiles. Recently she was advocating dropping
Windows altogether, and running Ubuntu. Then she "changed her mind"
about Linux, and has emitted some of the foulest, nastiest trolls to be
found in the group.

This is an MO similar to other trolls in the group -- who, oddly enough,
also end up in the snubbery.

These aren't just ordinary trolls -- they are full-on kooks, with Linux
living rent-free 24/7 in their tiny minds.

--
-v
ObWindows8:
Not happy with Windows 8, but at least it doesn't have arbitrary limits
on memory usage -- unlike Win7 home premium, which will only use half of
my home system's RAM.

vallor wrote:


BTW, is this a meeting place for anti-Linux trolls?

Nope.

The topic here is Windows 8, for better or worse.

And when Windows 8 Service Pack 2 comes along,
we'll be bumping the number to Windows 9 and
starting another news group. Mark your calendar.

Paul

I hope that's true. There were rumours Windows had reached the end. I
believe they still have new things to do.

"Paul" escreveu na mensagem ...

vallor wrote:


BTW, is this a meeting place for anti-Linux trolls?

Nope.

The topic here is Windows 8, for better or worse.

And when Windows 8 Service Pack 2 comes along,
we'll be bumping the number to Windows 9 and
starting another news group. Mark your calendar.

Paul

Norman wrote:
I hope that's true. There were rumours Windows had reached the end. I
believe they still have new things to do.


The BUILD conference had three pictures of desktop screens
with a start menu included. The start menu has room to hold
Metro icons. So that's one possibility for the new OS. Implement
what was shown at BUILD. A plus of the new menu, is it
doesn't have to obscure the whole screen.

I don't know what other content they have to offer, short
of "subscription" OS (not interested) and Windows Store
only applications (not interested). That will leave me
"not interested".

And I think you realize as much as I do, that desktop OSes
will not last forever. Products follow maturity curves,
markets saturate, development costs can't be paid back.
And executives also make arbitrary decisions (like, "me
wanna go mobile, screw the desktop"). After the way Windows 8
was delivered, you have to wonder how serious they were...
I don't see any signs they learned anything.

Paul

On 2014-08-19 4:27 PM, vallor wrote:
On 08/17/2014 07:54 AM, Silver Slimer wrote:
On 2014-08-16 6:42 PM, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2014 12:41:34 -0400, Silver Slimer
wrote:

OS war! -)

There's no war, GNU/Linux has already lost. I'm generally very
open-minded about other operating systems but GNU/Linux is so
destructively awful that I have to advocate staying away from it
completely. There's no excuse for the same system and the same game
screen tearing when played in GNU/Linux, there's no excuse for a very
standard computer refusing to shut down or sleep in GNU/Linux, there's
also no excuse for one of their main desktop environments to run slow on
an i3 with 8GB of RAM.

You must simply be unlucky with the particular machine on which you've
tried to install it. I have Mint Cinnamon 17 installed on several
computers on SSDs and it boots up in seconds runs nice and smoothly.
On some I have both Windows and Linux installed as a dual boot, and on
these computers Linux always boots up and loads applications faster
than Windows.

That's awesome. I hope that they wake from sleep and manage to shut down
correctly.

As is the case with almost everybody who uses Linux.

I also hope that they don't experience screen tearing in 3D
games.

A problem that only certain hardware/driver combos run into...and
typically, when someone runs into a problem with _any_ OS, you work on
help forums to get it fixed. (Bitching about it in an advocacy group is
a dead giveaway that you're a troll, troll.)

BTW, is this a meeting place for anti-Linux trolls? I'd love to engage
more, but they don't allow themselves to be nailed down to anything, and
will simply spin and lie when cornered.

This "Silver Slimer" is especially egregious in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
living in many people's killfiles. Recently she was advocating dropping
Windows altogether, and running Ubuntu. Then she "changed her mind"
about Linux, and has emitted some of the foulest, nastiest trolls to be
found in the group.

This is an MO similar to other trolls in the group -- who, oddly enough,
also end up in the snubbery.

These aren't just ordinary trolls -- they are full-on kooks, with Linux
living rent-free 24/7 in their tiny minds.


I'm a "she" now?

If you don't like the fact that I speak the truth about your operating
system of choice, perhaps you should stop joining the pack of people who
make assumptions about me. At the beginning, I was told that I was
nothing more than someone's sock, a figment of his imagination. Then, I
was called a liar for complaining about issues I faced in GNU/Linux
despite the fact that I offered a lot of evidence and detail about what
I encountered. Obviously, after such treatment I became very hostile
toward you guys.

However, I eventually decided to give GNU/Linux yet another chance. I
already knew how to fix the sleeping problem on my laptop so that was
out of the way but didn't expect to face any kind of problems on my
desktop as it wasn't a name-brand machine, used off-the-shelf part of
the highest quality and used open-source drivers for just about
everything except the GPU. This time, I faced a computer which refused
to shut down and screen tearing in games. In general, the performance
was also lacking in comparison to Windows 8.

I lived with it for a while and tried all sorts of on-line "solutions"
to the problem to no avail. I then told you "advocates" about the
problem and was immediately told that I was a liar. Even after I
submitted a dozen links for people facing the exact same issue, I was
still a liar and my intelligence was questioned because I supposedly
never "google'd a solution" even though that's exactly what I did prior
to returning to Windows 8.

In the end, I came to despise GNU/Linux not so much because of the very
mediocre experience I faced but because of people like you who question
everyone's intelligence, LIE profusely about how great GNU/Linux, call
other people liars without EVER submitting proof of any kind of lie and
then go onto other newsgroups that supposed "troll" visits in the hope
of smearing that person's name even more. This newsgroup is actually
helpful to people facing issues in Windows. As such, your presence here
is unwanted and unwelcome. You're free to stay but any more of your
trolling will simply be ignored. I have no interest in bringing the COLA
stupidity here.

--
Silver Slimer
OpenMedia Supporter
GNU/Linux is a dangerous attack on your data

On 2014-08-19 5:41 PM, Norman wrote:

I hope that's true. There were rumours Windows had reached the end. I
believe they still have new things to do.

So long as the competition (OS X and GNU/Linux) is as mediocre as it is,
Windows will be wanted and needed by computer users across the world.

--
Silver Slimer
OpenMedia Supporter
GNU/Linux is a dangerous attack on your data

On 08/19/2014 03:21 PM, Silver Slimer wrote:
On 2014-08-19 4:27 PM, vallor wrote:
On 08/17/2014 07:54 AM, Silver Slimer wrote:
On 2014-08-16 6:42 PM, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2014 12:41:34 -0400, Silver Slimer
wrote:

OS war! -)

There's no war, GNU/Linux has already lost. I'm generally very
open-minded about other operating systems but GNU/Linux is so
destructively awful that I have to advocate staying away from it
completely. There's no excuse for the same system and the same game
screen tearing when played in GNU/Linux, there's no excuse for a very
standard computer refusing to shut down or sleep in GNU/Linux, there's
also no excuse for one of their main desktop environments to run
slow on
an i3 with 8GB of RAM.

You must simply be unlucky with the particular machine on which you've
tried to install it. I have Mint Cinnamon 17 installed on several
computers on SSDs and it boots up in seconds runs nice and smoothly.
On some I have both Windows and Linux installed as a dual boot, and on
these computers Linux always boots up and loads applications faster
than Windows.

That's awesome. I hope that they wake from sleep and manage to shut down
correctly.

As is the case with almost everybody who uses Linux.

I also hope that they don't experience screen tearing in 3D
games.

A problem that only certain hardware/driver combos run into...and
typically, when someone runs into a problem with _any_ OS, you work on
help forums to get it fixed. (Bitching about it in an advocacy group is
a dead giveaway that you're a troll, troll.)

BTW, is this a meeting place for anti-Linux trolls? I'd love to engage
more, but they don't allow themselves to be nailed down to anything, and
will simply spin and lie when cornered.

This "Silver Slimer" is especially egregious in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
living in many people's killfiles. Recently she was advocating dropping
Windows altogether, and running Ubuntu. Then she "changed her mind"
about Linux, and has emitted some of the foulest, nastiest trolls to be
found in the group.

This is an MO similar to other trolls in the group -- who, oddly enough,
also end up in the snubbery.

These aren't just ordinary trolls -- they are full-on kooks, with Linux
living rent-free 24/7 in their tiny minds.


I'm a "she" now?

If you don't like the fact that I speak the truth about your operating
system of choice,

Poisoning the well.


perhaps you should stop joining the pack of people who
make assumptions about me.

I haven't "joined" anything.


At the beginning, I was told that I was
nothing more than someone's sock, a figment of his imagination. Then, I
was called a liar for complaining about issues I faced in GNU/Linux
despite the fact that I offered a lot of evidence and detail about what
I encountered. Obviously, after such treatment I became very hostile
toward you guys.

There is no "you guys".

And this claim that you "became very hostile" is ridiculous, because you
were always a hostile asshole -- which means nobody is going to want to
help you, even if you were in a Linux help forum (which you weren't).

Your hostility from the get-go was nothing more than attempts to get a
rise out of people, aka "trolling".

[snip wall of screed]


In the end, I came to despise GNU/Linux not so much because of the very
mediocre experience I faced but because of people like you who question
everyone's intelligence, LIE profusely about how great GNU/Linux, call
other people liars without EVER submitting proof of any kind of lie and
then go onto other newsgroups that supposed "troll" visits in the hope
of smearing that person's name even more.

No, I came to this newsgroup to see what the story was with Windows 8.
Imagine my surprise to find a known troll working hard on "the Slog" in
the newsfroup, posting more and more offensive bull****, until it was
time to speak up and call the clown out on his/her/its bull****.

As far as "people like me", I took very little (if any) part in your
meltdown on COLA. Because, there was really nothing that could be said
that would have changed any results whatsoever -- you were following the
of "Don't like/Like/Don't like" to a T, and you're not the first
"slimer" of the group to try that gambit.

But a word of advice: acting like an asshole is no good way to win
friends and influence people.

This newsgroup is actually
helpful to people facing issues in Windows. As such, your presence here
is unwanted and unwelcome.

By you. I wonder why?

You're free to stay but any more of your
trolling will simply be ignored. I have no interest in bringing the COLA
stupidity here.

Clearly you _did_ have "interest in bringing the COLA stupidity here",
because that's exactly what you were doing -- and what I called you out on.

--
-v

On Wed, 13 Aug 2014 22:04:04 +0100
Good Guy wrote:

On 13/08/2014 19:28, Silver Slimer wrote:


No, GNU/Linux and LibreOffice are not quality work in comparison to
Windows and MS Office.


We have known this for years and that is why serious people are using
Windows and not Linux despite being free.

Depends on what you do. For office work, sure , Windows is better,
but for my job, which is software development, Windows is crap...
I was pretty masochistic in developing on Windows XP under cygwin, until
I switched to Linux, never to look back. I have Windows 8 installed
on spare drive but haven't booted it since April. Simply, I don't need
it.

--
Click OK to continue...