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Windows 10? Free? Ed Bott has some thoughts
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Windows 10? Free? Ed Bott has some thoughts
On 03/23/2015 01:51 PM, Kirk Bubul wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/will-mi...tag=TRE17cfd61 Thanks for providing some very good info! |
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Windows 10? Free? Ed Bott has some thoughts
Kirk Bubul wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/will-mi...tag=TRE17cfd61 The answer to his last question is "they can't help themselves". -- A |
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Windows 10? Free? Ed Bott has some thoughts
Kirk Bubul wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/will-mi...tag=TRE17cfd61 Microsoft requires UEFI so they can insert their product key to lock that machine to run only Windows 10. Since I may want to multi-boot to older versions of Windows (to which I have legitimate licenses that are not fettered by being base versions to later upgrades) or to Linux variants then I won't want Windows 10 in the mix. The UEFI requirement also means I couldn't even use Windows 10 if I wanted to until my next new build which is still probably a few years away and long past Microsoft's "free" upgrade offer. So the free update will be via Windows Update site, huh? Hmm, that means for a clean Windows 10 that I'll have to save a backup, wipe the OS partition(s) on my disk, install a clean Windows 7, and then use WU to update to have a clean Windows 10. I detest polluted upgrades. If a disk dies, I'll have to do that anyway (or restore from image backups) to get Windows 10 back on my computer. The free offer is via the WU site which means Windows 7/8 already has to be installed to be visiting the WU site to get the Windows 10 upgrade download. So what happens after the 1-year free upgrade expires and then my disk dies (and if I was like most users that don't do backups)? "The consumer free upgrade offer for Windows 10 applies to qualified new and existing devices running Windows 7, Windows 8.1 and Windows Phone 8.1." "new and existing devices" is stupid. What other types of devices are there? Just say "devices". It's just words to add verbiage. "Some editions are excluded from the consumer free upgrade - including Windows 7 Enterprise, Windows 8/8.1 Enterprise, and Windows RT/RT 8.1." Yep, Microsoft doesn't want to lose their volume licensing revenue which typically means the support contracts, too. So the free upgrade is really targeting single-user [home] consumers, a much smaller dent in their total user base, and not for business users. Bott also figures "consumer" means the Home edition of Windows. Yuck. I've had only one Home edition of Windows at home and many times got snagged by features missing in it compared to the Pro version, like the policy editors (local and groups), EFS, 16GB max RAM instead of 192GB, Presentation support, software restriction policies (SRPs) that let me block a program from ever loading (handy for apps that are rude in reestablishing their startup program when they run), no domain joining (so forget toting my laptop to work unless I go out to come back in but into the corporate network's safe zone which means many resources are unavailable), and probably more Pro-only features than I've tried. No more crippled Home editions on my desktop. I like how Bott noticed how the free upgrade to Windows 10 will still leave that installation a pirated copy. That means all those updates from the WU site that were refused due to an invalid license will still get rejected after the free upgrade to Windows 10. They'll let you upgrade to Windows 10 from a pirate copy of Windows 7/8 but you still don't get a legitimate license with that upgrade. As with luring most of their users to upgrade to the newest version of Internet Explorer by including it in a list of updates from the WU site, they'll use the same trick of offering the free update to Windows 10 from the WU site. So users NOT wanting to upgrade will have to be wary and watchful of what updates Microsoft tries to push via WU. Microsoft, as well as any commercial vendor, envies the subscription model that anti-virus vendors have long enjoyed. Microsoft has tested subscriptionware, like Office 365, and it looks like that is their intended direction. When the free 1-year upgrade offer expires, my bet is that it provides an interim during which Microsoft can tweak a subscription model for Windows. Whether you upgraded free or got it later at an initial full price, thereafter it'll be $69.99/yr to renew your subscription to Windows. I fear that eventually you no longer can disable automatic updates; i.e., auto-updates will be enabled for "download and install" and you can't set to "notify only". "Slowly I turned. Step by step, step by step, I crept upon him." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr6VBg1SiYI (a bit out of sync) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N59pcYWsuSQ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slowly_I_Turned |
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Windows 10? Free? Ed Bott has some thoughts
Kirk Bubul wrote on 3/23/2015 2:51 PM:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/will-mi...tag=TRE17cfd61 The OEM question is a good one. I have an OEM software I bought and it's legit/legal and passes the Genuine validation. Hmmm This will be fun if nothing else. |
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Windows 10? Free? Ed Bott has some thoughts
On 24/03/2015 4:51 AM, Kirk Bubul wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/will-mi...tag=TRE17cfd61 QUESTION If the update to win 10 is free and is done via Windows Updates, and my computer is set to automatic updates -- do I get updated from win 7 to win 10 whether I want it or not????????? I am going to set all my computers to manual updates until I know the answers. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Maurice Helwig ~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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Windows 10? Free? Ed Bott has some thoughts
On 03/23/2015 06:00 PM, Maurice Helwig wrote:
On 24/03/2015 4:51 AM, Kirk Bubul wrote: http://www.zdnet.com/article/will-mi...tag=TRE17cfd61 QUESTION If the update to win 10 is free and is done via Windows Updates, and my computer is set to automatic updates -- do I get updated from win 7 to win 10 whether I want it or not????????? I am going to set all my computers to manual updates until I know the answers. Not likely it would just happen automatically. Until Win10 is released...everything that's been talked about here is still just speculation. Things can (and will) change. That said: I prefer the idea of manual updates. Nothing worse than having them happen when you are in the middle of doing something. |
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Windows 10? Free? Ed Bott has some thoughts
On 03/23/2015 03:50 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
Microsoft requires UEFI so they can insert their product key to lock that machine to run only Windows 10. Just out of curiosity, do UEFI motherboards have a discharge berg to reset the whole mess? |
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Windows 10? Free? Ed Bott has some thoughts
T wrote:
Just out of curiosity, do UEFI motherboards have a discharge berg to reset the whole mess? I don't have any UEFI motherboard so I haven't personally experienced [the nuisance of] using them. I'm assuming your "discharge berg" means the header on the mobo used to reset the CMOS. UEFI replaces BIOS. BIOS settings are read from the copy put into the CMOS table (which requires a battery when the PC has no power source to retain the settings in CMOS), not directly from the EEPROM(s) holding the BIOS firmware. You are not raising voltage on the EEPROM chips containing the BIOS or UEFI firmware to, say, burn in a password when you enable it in BIOS. You are updating the CMOS copy of the BIOS settings. Modifications you make in BIOS are not replicated back in the EEPROMS (well, there may be some mobos that let you burn the current CMOS setup back in the BIOS EEPROMs but I haven't used them). The settings used are from the CMOS copy. Flashing (burning) the EEPROM(s) is a hazardous action and why they have users modifying a copy in the CMOS table (so screwups or corruption can be corrected by re-copying the static BIOS settings). http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/...rtooth_P67.zip That's a manual for an Asus Sabertooth P67 mobo and it has UEFI. Page 2-12, section 2.2.5, describes the reset jumper for CMOS. UEFI is shorthand for UEFI BIOS to differentiate it from old or MBR oriented BIOS. It's still a BIOS. UEFI is firmware code. [Old] BIOS is firmware code. You don't modify the firmware. You modify a copy of it in CMOS. http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/...s_Vii_Hero.pdf Section 1.2.6, page 1-29. That UEFI mobo has a button called CLR_CMOS you press (instead of digging around for a jumper to put across a couple header pins on the mobo). CMOS doesn't disappear just because the BIOS firmware changed in the EEPROM chip(s). [Old MBR] BIOS and UEFI [BIOS] are firmware. There might be updates to firmware over time but most times the old firmware works just fine and users that flash to newer firmware have been well trained in the mantra "newer is better" when, in reality it's "newer is different". New code: might fix old bugs, may add new bugs. I don't see any mobo maker wanting its users to casually flash (burn) the firmware every time the user wants to tweak a setting in UEFI/BIOS. They let you putz around with the CMOS copy and keep the firmware copy safe to replace the CMOS copy when you or something screws up the CMOS copy. How many times have you flashed your BIOS versus how many times you altered the BIOS settings copied into CMOS (i.e., the "BIOS" screens when you boot)? |
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Windows 10? Free? Ed Bott has some thoughts
philo wrote:
On 03/23/2015 06:00 PM, Maurice Helwig wrote: On 24/03/2015 4:51 AM, Kirk Bubul wrote: http://www.zdnet.com/article/will-mi...tag=TRE17cfd61 QUESTION If the update to win 10 is free and is done via Windows Updates, and my computer is set to automatic updates -- do I get updated from win 7 to win 10 whether I want it or not????????? I am going to set all my computers to manual updates until I know the answers. Not likely it would just happen automatically. Until Win10 is released...everything that's been talked about here is still just speculation. Things can (and will) change. That said: I prefer the idea of manual updates. Nothing worse than having them happen when you are in the middle of doing something. I also prefer manual but in the latest win 10 10041 there is no option to disable auto update. Win 10 is also going to eliminate the control panel. My opinion is that microsoft is going to try to lock down everybody that uses or upgrades to win 10.I installed win 10 with an iso.I also had ueif disabled and it installed.On 1 of my drives I had win 8.1 + win7 dual booting.On the other drive I had Mint linux 17.1 cinnamon running.I installed win 10 to another unused drive.I only ran win 10 for a day and removed it.I hate it. When I went to boot my other windows 8.1 it would not boot.It would only boot the old win 10 drive no matter which one I set in the bios. So I used the windows 8 disk to repair the MBR and could then boot win 8+7.I then used the live cd and was able to reinstall grub so I could boot linux.The one drive that I didn't use was marked read only I assume by win 10,so I had to fix this also. Buy the way this is my test machine so I pretty much don't worry about hosing it. I have installed every preview of win 10 so far and this was the 1st one to act this bad.I will never say that I will not use win 10 but it going to have to prove me wrong about the lockdown and I will only install it if I have a disk iso or whatever.I will not be doing any over the air auto update to recieve the win 10 upgrade. |
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Windows 10? Free? Ed Bott has some thoughts
On 03/23/2015 05:29 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
T wrote: Just out of curiosity, do UEFI motherboards have a discharge berg to reset the whole mess? I don't have any UEFI motherboard so I haven't personally experienced [the nuisance of] using them. I'm assuming your "discharge berg" means the header on the mobo used to reset the CMOS. UEFI replaces BIOS. BIOS settings are read from the copy put into the CMOS table (which requires a battery when the PC has no power source to retain the settings in CMOS), not directly from the EEPROM(s) holding the BIOS firmware. You are not raising voltage on the EEPROM chips containing the BIOS or UEFI firmware to, say, burn in a password when you enable it in BIOS. You are updating the CMOS copy of the BIOS settings. Modifications you make in BIOS are not replicated back in the EEPROMS (well, there may be some mobos that let you burn the current CMOS setup back in the BIOS EEPROMs but I haven't used them). The settings used are from the CMOS copy. Flashing (burning) the EEPROM(s) is a hazardous action and why they have users modifying a copy in the CMOS table (so screwups or corruption can be corrected by re-copying the static BIOS settings). http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/...rtooth_P67.zip That's a manual for an Asus Sabertooth P67 mobo and it has UEFI. Page 2-12, section 2.2.5, describes the reset jumper for CMOS. UEFI is shorthand for UEFI BIOS to differentiate it from old or MBR oriented BIOS. It's still a BIOS. UEFI is firmware code. [Old] BIOS is firmware code. You don't modify the firmware. You modify a copy of it in CMOS. http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/...s_Vii_Hero.pdf Section 1.2.6, page 1-29. That UEFI mobo has a button called CLR_CMOS you press (instead of digging around for a jumper to put across a couple header pins on the mobo). CMOS doesn't disappear just because the BIOS firmware changed in the EEPROM chip(s). [Old MBR] BIOS and UEFI [BIOS] are firmware. There might be updates to firmware over time but most times the old firmware works just fine and users that flash to newer firmware have been well trained in the mantra "newer is better" when, in reality it's "newer is different". New code: might fix old bugs, may add new bugs. I don't see any mobo maker wanting its users to casually flash (burn) the firmware every time the user wants to tweak a setting in UEFI/BIOS. They let you putz around with the CMOS copy and keep the firmware copy safe to replace the CMOS copy when you or something screws up the CMOS copy. How many times have you flashed your BIOS versus how many times you altered the BIOS settings copied into CMOS (i.e., the "BIOS" screens when you boot)? Thank you! Wonderful write up. |
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Windows 10? Free? Ed Bott has some thoughts
VanguardLH wrote:
T wrote: Just out of curiosity, do UEFI motherboards have a discharge berg to reset the whole mess? I don't have any UEFI motherboard so I haven't personally experienced [the nuisance of] using them. I'm assuming your "discharge berg" means the header on the mobo used to reset the CMOS. UEFI replaces BIOS. BIOS settings are read from the copy put into the CMOS table (which requires a battery when the PC has no power source to retain the settings in CMOS), not directly from the EEPROM(s) holding the BIOS firmware. I'm not sure about storage options for UEFI systems. The BIOS has *always* had the ability to flash the EEPROM chip. On at least one brand of BIOS (Award or AMI), there is a subroutine that knows how to flash EEPROM segments. The area that a legacy BIOS updates, is DMI/ESCD. Any time the CPU changes, more RAM is added, DMI is updated, the EEPROM segment is burned. And this is one reason why, if you "upgrade" a BIOS, pull the EEPROM chip out of the socket and put it in a lab programmer later, the checksum won't match your original file. It's because after the first boot, the DMI has been edited by the BIOS and the whole image is no longer the same. I've tested this, and right after a BIOS upgrade, my checksum was no longer the same. And the DMI does it. Only a portion of the BIOS image is "non-volatile", and only that area should be checksummed. ******* As for the statements about BIOS passwords, there are two implementations. On a desktop, typically two locations in CMOS RAM hold the password string. On those, using the CLR_CMOS header, clears the password. So those are easy to fix. On "business" laptops, a 2KB EEPROM located near the Sourhbridge holds the password. The tech support info says to ship the laptop back to the factory, to have a forgotten password cleared. A dude in Romania, charges $50 for a package (plus clip-on hardware connections), to clear the EEPROM. It's not clear whether any special pattern has to be stored in that chip, for the laptop to operate correctly. So those don't have the easy option of a CMOS jumper. You're kinda screwed, if helping a customer who owns such a laptop. ******* The UEFI could be re-writing major portions of the BIOS, and we'd never know it. Since UEFI has a file system, and appears to have all sorts of whizzy update options, I will not be surprised to hear about it eventually getting trashed (somehow). UEFI has all the earmarks of being an eventual disaster (malware). It's just a matter of time until someone figures out a way to brick it. I've already read one posting, where someone managed to disable BIOS access on a UEFI system, via a setting in Windows. And there didn't appear to be any way to reverse the operation. So UEFI is smelling liks a disaster waiting to happen. About as safe as a chocolate teapot. Paul |
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Windows 10? Free? Ed Bott has some thoughts
On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 09:00:47 +1000, Maurice Helwig
wrote: If the update to win 10 is free and is done via Windows Updates, and my computer is set to automatic updates -- do I get updated from win 7 to win 10 whether I want it or not????????? It'll be a global disaster if that does happen. I don't think that's an exaggeration either - imagine hundreds of millions of computers all over the world suddenly unusable for several hours (or perhaps days for those on dial-up) while they "upgrade" themselves and then display a new system their users don't understand. And that'll just be the ones where the upgrade itself goes without a hitch. Rod. |
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Windows 10? Free? Ed Bott has some thoughts
On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 09:00:47 +1000, Maurice Helwig
wrote: On 24/03/2015 4:51 AM, Kirk Bubul wrote: http://www.zdnet.com/article/will-mi...tag=TRE17cfd61 QUESTION If the update to win 10 is free and is done via Windows Updates, and my computer is set to automatic updates -- do I get updated from win 7 to win 10 whether I want it or not????????? I am going to set all my computers to manual updates until I know the answers. http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-03-24 Rod. |
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Windows 10? Free? Ed Bott has some thoughts
Big_Al wrote:
Kirk Bubul wrote on 3/23/2015 2:51 PM: http://www.zdnet.com/article/will-mi...tag=TRE17cfd61 The OEM question is a good one. I have an OEM software I bought and it's legit/legal and passes the Genuine validation. Hmmm This will be fun if nothing else. go here for a windows 8.1 iso http://windows.microsoft.com/en-GB/w...-refresh-media After i downloaded it and started to install, it said windows 8 but after the install i went to control panel and system and it said it was windows 8.1 pro. i used my windows 8 pro cd-key to install. I installed to virtualbox as i did not want to mess with my windows 8.1 pro install. i installed from fresh no upgrade. I downloaded windows 8.1 pro just to prepare for what is coming. As i don't like what i am seeing. And i don't like what i am reading on this news group. I hope this helps others. |
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