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O.T. Dell 780 Problem



 
 
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  #46  
Old April 7th 18, 02:15 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default O.T. Dell 780 Problem

Mark Twain wrote:
I remember the HDTune now.

I downloaded and tried it on the
8500 just to test it out before
I get the new HD's.

http://i64.tinypic.com/34xj2tc.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/2mxpjqp.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/b7i9uo.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/2hnaypi.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/5bpv7r.jpg

Robert


The transfer rate curve, the first picture, almost
looks like the OS isn't idle while the benchmark
was running.

The drive appears to have bad table manners, in that
the load cycle count is 49769. That means when the
drive is idle, it's parking the heads. It looks
like it's parking the heads every 20 minutes or so,
which all things considered, isn't bad. The really
kooky drives can do it in a shorter timeframe
than that.

I took a look at my two "park-er" drives here,
and their ratio is about the same as yours.

Your Reallocated is still "0", so that's good.

I would be a bit concerned, if the transfer rate
curve really looked like that. If it did actually
look like that, the symptoms would be inconsistent.
You have a lot of spikes in the transfer curve, and
if those were really there, your Reallocated should
start to show problems too. My experience is, if all
the bad parts of the disk are concentrated in one
area, it's possible to have a "gouge" in the transfer
curve, yet with reallocated still being in fine shape.

You have a decent number of hours on the drive.

My champion drive (one that doesn't park the heads),
has close to 40000 hours on it now. But it's probably
the exception here. And one at work, a ball bearing
drive, it lasted 60000 hours (and was still working
when it went off to the landfill). You had to turn it
on its side, until it had spun up, but once it was
spinning, you could return it to horizontal, and
it would keep running.

*******

If a drive begins to "feel slow" and there's a wide
gouge in the transfer curve in HDTune, then you
could consider replacing it. As long as you have
backups of that drive, I don't really see a reason
to panic just yet. Reallocated is still 0. And
the spikes aren't concentrated enough yet, to
cause it to feel slow.

I have a lot of trouble in Windows 10, running HDTune,
because the OS likes to start doing stuff, as soon
as I try to run a benchmark. Windows 7 has some
of those behaviors (Windows Update could start scanning),
but overall, Win7 isn't quite as bad as Win10, at
ruining benchmark runs.

The best OS I had for benchmarks, was Win2K. It didn't
interfere with what I was doing.

Paul
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  #47  
Old April 8th 18, 12:44 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. Dell 780 Problem

Well I the OS wasn't idle when I did the test,..
I didn't think about that,...

Maybe I should do another with it at idle.

Robert


  #48  
Old April 8th 18, 01:57 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
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Posts: 2,679
Default O.T. Dell 780 Problem

In message , Mark
Twain writes:
Well I the OS wasn't idle when I did the test,..
I didn't think about that,...

Maybe I should do another with it at idle.

Robert


You won't _get_ it to be idle. The best you can do is run HDTune
multiple times, and see if the "spikes" (if that's the right word for
something that goes downwards!) are in the same place across the disc.
If you get spikes in different places, then they're just due to the OS
interrupting; if they're always in the same part of the scan, then
there's probably a dud patch there, that is being swapped for a good
patch, which impacts the speed. If they have breadth, that's not good.
If there haven't been enough for the reallocated sector count to start
showing other than zero (the manufacturers don't show above zero there
until it gets above some threshold; _all_ drives have _some_ dud
sectors, even from new), then you've _probably_ got time to image or
otherwise copy data from the drive. HDTune is a moderate way of seeing
if you have dud sectors that aren't enough for the reallocated sector
count to start showing; if only a few, the drive may be fine.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Old professors don't fade away - they just lose their faculties.
  #49  
Old April 8th 18, 05:31 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. Dell 780 Problem

I was active on the computer on the
previous test and this time I had
nothing open besides HDTune.


http://i66.tinypic.com/nbzn79.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/2cihf5s.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/2vcz7mq.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/2zs4s9s.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/eqcrom.jpg


Robert
  #50  
Old April 8th 18, 06:20 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default O.T. Dell 780 Problem

Mark Twain wrote:
I was active on the computer on the
previous test and this time I had
nothing open besides HDTune.


http://i66.tinypic.com/nbzn79.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/2cihf5s.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/2vcz7mq.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/2zs4s9s.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/eqcrom.jpg


Robert


The first curve is better looking, with a smaller set
of spikes. The drive doesn't look "brand new", but
it also has 17,000 hours on it.

No reason to panic quite yet. Keep doing backups.

*******

The other four curves should not depend on user activity.

It's only the benchmark curve that's quite affected
by both user activity, and how the OS is designed.

Paul
  #51  
Old April 8th 18, 07:05 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. Dell 780 Problem

I will, and will order the HD's and cases
next month.

Thanks,
Robert

  #52  
Old April 9th 18, 02:36 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. Dell 780 Problem

I decided to run HDTune on the 780
and the first scan shows allot of
spikes!

I ran the scan several times after
which usually showed something similar
to the second scan results.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2h5s26w.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/svtpns.jpg

So what caused the spiking? I did
accidentally touch the keyboard once
during testing. Could that be it?

Thoughts/suggestions?
Robert

  #53  
Old April 9th 18, 03:27 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default O.T. Dell 780 Problem

Mark Twain wrote:
I decided to run HDTune on the 780
and the first scan shows allot of
spikes!

I ran the scan several times after
which usually showed something similar
to the second scan results.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2h5s26w.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/svtpns.jpg

So what caused the spiking? I did
accidentally touch the keyboard once
during testing. Could that be it?

Thoughts/suggestions?
Robert


Whatever is happening, is a repetitive pattern.

Something is interfering with the first scan, but what ?

The second scan is slightly weird, in that there is a
sprinkling of seek dots, outside the band. I've seen this
before in some pictures, but again, I can't offer a rational
interpretation. Some people have drives which are
apparently healthy, and the drive does that.

Overall, the second curve is OK.

Maybe you have an AV doing some scanning in the first picture ?
It could be Windows Update. Which will eventually settle down.

Paul
  #54  
Old April 10th 18, 08:28 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. Dell 780 Problem

I ran another HDTune to check the hours
on the 780.

Here's the 8500 scan:

http://i66.tinypic.com/nbzn79.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/2cihf5s.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/2vcz7mq.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/2zs4s9s.jpg


Here's the 780:

http://i63.tinypic.com/qqpstj.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/123mp8g.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/11kb8gj.jpg


I see what you mean about the seek dots,..

Why is it different; with 3 partitions on
the 8500 and only 2 on the 780? I tried
clicking the cubes on the info tab but no
response and no information at all on the
health tab. Shouldn't it at least show basic
information like how many hours? I ran error
scan tab and it came back all green.

Thoughts, suggestions?
Robert

Will the new HD's be like that?



  #55  
Old April 10th 18, 10:43 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default O.T. Dell 780 Problem

Mark Twain wrote:
I ran another HDTune to check the hours
on the 780.

Here's the 8500 scan: Seagate DM003

http://i66.tinypic.com/nbzn79.jpg bench (couple spikes)

http://i64.tinypic.com/2cihf5s.jpg info

http://i67.tinypic.com/2vcz7mq.jpg 16967 hours, Reallocated 0

http://i64.tinypic.com/2zs4s9s.jpg Current Pending 0


Here's the 780: Hitachi 750GB

http://i63.tinypic.com/qqpstj.jpg bench (couple spikes)

http://i65.tinypic.com/123mp8g.jpg info

http://i63.tinypic.com/11kb8gj.jpg SMART missing


I see what you mean about the seek dots,..

Why is it different; with 3 partitions on
the 8500 and only 2 on the 780? I tried
clicking the cubes on the info tab but no
response and no information at all on the
health tab. Shouldn't it at least show basic
information like how many hours? I ran error
scan tab and it came back all green.

Thoughts, suggestions?
Robert

Will the new HD's be like that?


I can't tell if the Hitachi is on a USB cable, or
is connected to a SATA or IDE internal cable.

USB doesn't usually have passthrough for SMART,
so the window should remain blank.

However, your Info page for the Hitachi is populated,
even if all the tick boxes are ticked, so I can't really
be sure why SMART has gone missing. While it's possible
for SMART to not be implemented on a drive, the Hitachi
has design roots from IBM research, and I think they
played a leading role in SMART. SMART should really be there.
The other bit of weirdness, is HDTune lists a temperature
for the Hitachi, and that would be obtained via SMART.
Temperature is carried in the SMART table.

I have had SMART "freak out" on Windows 10, but that
was Microsoft screwing around, and they fixed that.
It's working again.

My guess is that the Hitachi is a "weird-nick".
That's what the evidence says. There's enough evidence
there to say it should have worked, yet it didn't work
and the table stayed blank.

The Seagate DM003 is still safe to use, provided
you continue to make backups.

*******

I have probably a couple dozen drives here, and I
think all of them have a SMART screen :-) There is
one drive that won't have one, but that's my 4GB IDE
drive from the year 1999 or so. That may predate SMART.
And I have drives that are older than that, that haven't
been powered up in probably 30 years (and are likely
to be frozen via "stiction"). One of those was 250MB
in size (i.e. "huge"). And the heads don't have a ramp
to retract onto, and the heads land on the platter
(that is bad for the heads).

One of the companies did a research project in the lab,
where they allow the platter to spin, and they let the
heads rest on the platter. It takes a whole 30 days,
to grind the heads off :-) The reason they're doing
experiments like that, is planning for the day when
heads no longer "fly". I don't want to buy any of those
drives!

Paul
  #56  
Old April 10th 18, 12:04 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. Dell 780 Problem

I had nothing attached to the Hitachi when
running the HDTune tests.

As you say since it showed the temp it should
also show the SMART but doesn't.

Robert

  #57  
Old April 10th 18, 02:43 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. Dell 780 Problem

Question: at some point I may need to
replace the 750 GB HD in the 780. So
is there a conflict of putting a 2TB
HD in the 780 and using the Mrimg when
it was a 750 GB HD ?

Just curious,. can you have two operating
systems on the same HD? One for the 8500
and one for the 780? So that it could be
used by either computer?

Thanks,
Robert


  #58  
Old April 10th 18, 10:08 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default O.T. Dell 780 Problem

Mark Twain wrote:
Question: at some point I may need to
replace the 750 GB HD in the 780. So
is there a conflict of putting a 2TB
HD in the 780 and using the Mrimg when
it was a 750 GB HD ?

Just curious,. can you have two operating
systems on the same HD? One for the 8500
and one for the 780? So that it could be
used by either computer?

Thanks,
Robert


If you changed from a 750GB to a 2TB

1) Restores still work.
2) The backup definition still works, because
it's based on partitions as far as I know.
If a partition changed size, it would probably
still back it up.
3) What I can't tell you, is how "identifier sensitive"
it is. Does it use the disk serial number ? There
are a number of identifiers that "don't matter",
but then there will be one or two identifiers that
do matter.

I haven't tested whether a backup definition is
insensitive in that way.

It certainly won't take you long to define another
regularly schedule or on-demand backup if you want.
It might even be possible to edit the definition
of an existing one.

I would class this as "a problem you could deal with".

*******

Now, your second question is one I've never tried before.
And basically, your question amounts to "how tolerant
is the boot loader to hardware changes".

Windows To Go, is the only mode of OS installation
I know of, that demonstrates a boot loader can
tolerate life on two different machines. But I don't
know if that implies that this will also work for you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_to_go

"When using a PC as a host, only hardware certified for
use with either Windows 7 or Windows 8 will work well
with Windows To Go."

Certainly, if the 8500 OS "comes up" on the 780 hardware,
the activation logic is going to detect that. But since
this is Windows 7, the Royalty OEM OS activation is SLIC based,
both machines give the "I'm a Dell" secret handshake, and
in fact the activation logic is supposed to tolerate
that.

But this is a whole area where I have no experience,
and you'll be in "blue sky" country,
"experimenters paradise", when you try it :-)

It doesn't have to be hard to do, either. You
could clone over a second OS partition, then
use EasyBCD to add the second OS to the boot
menu. No OS re-installation should be necessary.

You'll never lack for a hobby... :-)

Paul
  #59  
Old April 11th 18, 05:05 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. Dell 780 Problem

I was just thinking of the new HD's... for the present
because of finances I'll only buy (1) this time around
and re-use the Star-Tech case.

Didn't we make the present 780 2TB external backup HD boot
to the 780? When I get the other HD's we need to make
another spare 2TB HD for the 780 and 8500.

This all came about from our talk of replacement computers
and how they all have Windows 10, even the refurbished
computers have it and I want to stay with Windows 7
Professional.

I figured the second question was blue sky country *L* It
would be interesting to try it out and see what happens.
My thought was to have a interchangeable drive for the
8500/780, if possible.

Robert

 




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