My friend is in a mess, which computes?

A friend is having trouble with her cell phone, her desktop computer,
and her laptop computer. All at the same time. Phone is getting
fixed, but the computers remain.

Desktop:
With desktop comp she's still running XP, says she went to Firefox and
the whole screen turned black. I can't fix it from here and as much
as I like XP, I think now might be the time to go to 7. I thought at
an upcoming hamfest I could buy her, with her money, a 4gig, 500gig
hdd for maybe 100 dollars used, though I didn't look at prices at the
last ten.

She says she needs 6gigs. Isn't that nonsense. Loads of people run
on 4, and to use 6 wouldn't she have to have a new 64bit box and a
64-bit version of win7, all of which costs extra money and which few
people do?

She said 500 gig is not enough, she needs 1T. I have only 75 gig and
I still have 15 empty gig. She doesn't do anything special. She
doesn't host a server or collect more than a couple hundred
photographs, no videos. She does email and webbrowing, probably
less than I do.

She's not a difficult person but I think someone is filling her head
with nonsense. Am I right, about above, and about what's below?


Laptop:
Her daughter was in BJ's in another city I think and thought this was
a good idea, $255, 2.16GHz
https://www.amazon.com/Discontinued-...ustomerReviews
With win 8.1 installed. Not really a laptop, more of a tablet with a
detachable keyboard. Only 32 gig SSD, which is not enough. Repairman
says can't be changed to a mechanical harddrive. Is that really true?
Tried to install win10 and not enough room. Plus wouldn't this be a
32 bit box and win10 needs 64 bit?? (I think she's using "3"
external drives but it's not very portable that way.)
They tell her that people use the cloud.

2 Gig ram I agree is not enough, I don't know if it can be increased.

She wanted to give it to a grandchild to watch movies and they told
her it couldn't do that either.

HP must have had some market in mind when they designed these. If she
knew what sort of person could use this, she might well give it to
one, or their club, or a poor member of the group, but neither of us
know who could use this. Do you know?

What's wrong with HP that they even sell these things?



As an aside, a guy on Craig's list says " Hard drives are a little
"clicky" but the older ones were that way." Is there any truth to
that? I've had older ones and they didn't click at all. Aren't his
failing?

Micky wrote:
A friend is having trouble with her cell phone, her desktop computer,
and her laptop computer. All at the same time. Phone is getting
fixed, but the computers remain.

Desktop:
With desktop comp she's still running XP, says she went to Firefox and
the whole screen turned black. I can't fix it from here and as much
as I like XP, I think now might be the time to go to 7. I thought at
an upcoming hamfest I could buy her, with her money, a 4gig, 500gig
hdd for maybe 100 dollars used, though I didn't look at prices at the
last ten.

She says she needs 6gigs. Isn't that nonsense. Loads of people run
on 4, and to use 6 wouldn't she have to have a new 64bit box and a
64-bit version of win7, all of which costs extra money and which few
people do?

You would need to know something about the hardware, to
guess at whether the CPU is 64 bit or not. You cannot
install a 64 bit OS, on a processor that happens to be
32 bit only. Modern processors are 64 bit, with 32 bit
capability as a subset, and those cover both cases.
Older processors, your Athlon at 1GHz, those are 32 bit
only.

Windows 7 would have an Upgrade Advisor, but that runs from
a "working" OS. And the WinXP OS is dead. And the Upgrade Advisor
could warn you that the hardware is not suited to Windows 7.

And how do you even know at this moment, you aren't looking at
a hardware failure ?

Why not start with a Linux LiveCD, just to get the screen to
light up.

Then, see if you can coax some hardware details out of it.
Try "dmesg" in a Terminal window, and see what you can see.

On a modern LiveCD, there may be a copy of "inxi". It can
give some info on the hardware.

http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/...n1/inxi.1.html

You could even use a memtest86+ floppy diskette or CD,
to do a memory test, and the output lights up the screen
(using VESA mode and no driver).

All the OSes, from Vista to Win10, will run comfortably on 2GB RAM.
They will also run on 1GB, but the OS will be under memory
pressure as programs are loaded. The OSes absolutely need
on the order of 350MB. The various OSes will also "expand", like
a diner at an all-you-can-eat restaurant, if there is enough RAM.
My record here, is some modern OS used 6GB out of a 64GB RAM
installation. Later versions of that OS, the consumption dropped
back to more reasonable values (maybe 2GB). But when the pressure
is on, the OS can shrink its consumption to around 350MB (it
evicts various caches). That's how a 1GB $100 tablet can work
with a Windows OS. It goes on a diet.

Even WinXP base memory requirement is reasonably light. Certainly
less than 350MB, depending on what's loaded at startup.

*******

A 64 bit OS does the following for you:

1) Runs Adobe Creative Cloud. Adobe delivers nothing but 64 bit
software now. Most other software companies, still offer both.
2) Handles more than 4GB of memory. The Windows memory license on
32 bit systems, is limited to 4GB of address space. If the machine
has only 2GB of RAM, then it doesn't matter whether the OS is
32 or 64 bit. A 64 bit OS will run just fine on 2GB of RAM.
3) A 64 bit OS runs 64 bit and 32 bit programs. But won't run 16 bit ones
(really old stuff).

A 32 bit OS does the following for you:

1) ****es off Adobe. User cannot rent Adobe software (Creative Cloud).
2) Takes slightly less space on the C: drive to store the code.
The installer DVDs are 2.5 and 3.5GB, so even the installer
DVD for 32 bit is a gigabyte smaller in content.
3) Runs 32 bit and 16 bit programs. So you can run at least a
few extra old games.
4) Some processors are actually slightly more efficient with
32 bit code. I can't remember if this is called macrofusion
or microfusion. But anyway, on some early Core2 processors,
you get a few more percent performance. Big deal.

A 32 bit install will work on more processors (going back to
Pentium III and so on). But, the newer OSes also introduce
stupid instruction set requirements, which causes old hardware
to be obsolete. And this is why you run Upgrade Advisor before
shelling out $150 on some new OS.

Windows 10 does not have an Upgrade Advisor available as a separate
package. One person has recommended using the Windows 8.1 advisor,
because the hardware rules for Win10 are the same as Win8.1 .
On the OSes that qualify for a free upgrade, one of the Windows
Update packages ('664) installs Upgrade Advisor, but it
doesn't have the conventional interface. In the GWX panel,
there is a button you can click, to get the Upgrade Advisor
report. When I checked mine, it said I had "zero incompatible programs"
and agreed to do the install. The report was not as detailed
as I would have liked.


She said 500 gig is not enough, she needs 1T. I have only 75 gig and
I still have 15 empty gig. She doesn't do anything special. She
doesn't host a server or collect more than a couple hundred
photographs, no videos. She does email and webbrowing, probably
less than I do.

She's not a difficult person but I think someone is filling her head
with nonsense. Am I right, about above, and about what's below?

They will soon stop making 500GB HDD drives. The new minimum will
be 1TB. But plenty of used drives will be smaller. The reason
for this, is today a single platter holds 1TB of data, 500GB on
either side of the platter. Only one side of a platter is
needed now, to make a 500GB drive.

Even 2.5" drives are getting bigger, but I think they're
500GB per platter. The 2TB 2.5" drives are too tall
for a laptop, but if they made a single platter drive
with a platter that big, it would fit in 9.5mm.



Laptop:
Her daughter was in BJ's in another city I think and thought this was
a good idea, $255, 2.16GHz
https://www.amazon.com/Discontinued-...ustomerReviews
With win 8.1 installed. Not really a laptop, more of a tablet with a
detachable keyboard. Only 32 gig SSD, which is not enough. Repairman
says can't be changed to a mechanical harddrive. Is that really true?
Tried to install win10 and not enough room. Plus wouldn't this be a
32 bit box and win10 needs 64 bit?? (I think she's using "3"
external drives but it's not very portable that way.)
They tell her that people use the cloud.

2 Gig ram I agree is not enough, I don't know if it can be increased.

Some of the Stream 11 machines are $200, so you have to be careful
to not get "taken" on such a purchase. There's nothing worse than
paying "full price" for a wodge of plastic like that. Everyone likes
to think they got a "bargain".

There is no reason to put Windows 10 on that. Win10 is available as
32 bit or 64 bit. The 32 bit install uses slightly less space. The
Windows 8 hardware drivers should work very well with all the
various gadgets inside, and I'd be pretty happy to just continue
to run it with Windows 8/8.1

To install Windows 10, you can try returning it to factory condition,
then do the install. Second option, is plug in your spare SD card
into the SD slot, then start the install. When I installed Win10 on
the laptop, and there wasn't enough room, the installer offered to
"move some files to external storage". It did not state what it
was going to do, and I declined to continue the install. (I cleaned
up the disk myself.)

I cannot find reliable info on the 32GB storage device. The name "eMMC"
normally means a chip soldered to the motherboard. Yet, one Youtube
video, the person disassembling a Stream 11, finds what looks like a
microSATA of some sort. Yet, the dude is in such a rush, he doesn't
uncover the connector for a look.

At the price point, I cannot imagine the storage is removable. Yet that
video and other infos, are at odds on a lot of things. The Youtube video
demonstrates the battery pack coming out (four screws), while review
sites claim the battery is fixed in place. It's possible the
review sites are just lazy.

If you want a video player, put VLC on it and move on :-)


She wanted to give it to a grandchild to watch movies and they told
her it couldn't do that either.

Then what is it for ? A plastic doorstop ? Of course it plays movies.
The movies can be stored on an SD.

You will need to research:

1) The max size of SD it takes. Is it SDHC ? Look up SDHC on
Wikipedia, and learn more about the various SD standards.
2) If you buy an SD at the store, you have to select a speed.
You will need to look up the bitrates of popular movie formats,
and compare to the speed of the SD. The SD must be able to sustain
the bitrate of the movie that is playing. Chances are a Class 10
is sufficient, but I'll leave it to your ever-expansive mind
to research and confirm this. I don't have a movie collection,
and have zero materials to use for first-hand research.

There are high res movies in AVC format, where the bitrate might
be getting close to Class10. But you won't normally be acquiring
movies in that format. Conventional movie content should have
some lower rates. Remember that a 1x speed DVD plays a movie,
so you look up what 1x DVD speed is in megabytes per second,
then compare to a Class 10 SD. Easy, if all you're doing is
copying VOB files onto the SD.


HP must have had some market in mind when they designed these. If she
knew what sort of person could use this, she might well give it to
one, or their club, or a poor member of the group, but neither of us
know who could use this. Do you know?

What's wrong with HP that they even sell these things?

It's a content consumption device for Facebook people. It damn
well ought to play movies, because that's what it is for. It's
not a content creation device. And the SD slot is an essential
element of making it useful. They also make plastic wodges
with no SD slot, so count yourself lucky on this one. A 32GB
internal flash computer, is just about useless with no SD slot,
and the notion of sucking movies off the Cloud - doh!


As an aside, a guy on Craig's list says " Hard drives are a little
"clicky" but the older ones were that way." Is there any truth to
that? I've had older ones and they didn't click at all. Aren't his
failing?

When unpowered, a light "tink" sound comes from drives around
the landing ramp. It's unclear what is loose. They no longer
use the heavy-handed electromechanical relay as a "lock" to
prevent it from moving. The head assembly rests in a small
detent in the plastic ramp. I have other drives with what
should be similar internal design, and they don't "tink"
when rotated about the long axis.

When a drive is powered, it really shouldn't click, because
this implies attempting to move the heads up against a
track zero "stop". That means the drive cannot acquire a
signal off the platter, cannot find the track it is looking
for and so on.

Enthusiast drives, with high-power actuators,
they make a "thud" when the heads move, and those drives
need to sit in a stout mechanical assembly. Drives with
less aggressive head assemblies make practically no sound
at all. No thud. My Seagate 500GB ones, no thud. The
Seagate 3TB one, that one thuds. And it's not clear
why it has to thud. That is not the normal Seagate
style, on cheap drives.

Paul

On 7/7/2016 2:07 AM, Micky wrote:

Desktop:
She says she needs 6gigs. Isn't that nonsense. Loads of people run
on 4, and to use 6 wouldn't she have to have a new 64bit box and a
64-bit version of win7, all of which costs extra money and which few
people do?

Microcenter.com has this refurb for a hundred bucks:
HP Elite 8000 Refurb - Win7 Pro 64-Bit, Intel Core 2 Duo 3.0GHz; 4GB
RAM; 250GB Hard Drive
http://www.microcenter.com/product/4... _Refurbished

and this one for $330:
Dell Inspiron 3650 - Intel Pentium 3.3GHz; Win 10 Home 64-bit; 4GB
RAM; 1TB 7,200RPM Hard Drive
http://www.microcenter.com/product/4...sktop_Computer

She said 500 gig is not enough, she needs 1T.
She's not a difficult person but I think someone is filling her head
with nonsense. Am I right, about above, and about what's below?

Well, you'll just butt heads if you try to tell her what she's wrong.
Better to ask her to decide if these are wants or if they are needs.
If they are needs, she will have to rank each one by priority, meaning
she will have to justify them to *herself*. But first thing, find out
how much maximum she's willing to pay for a desktop and for a laptop.
Once you have her price points, you can show her what's in her price
ranges. She'll then realize that she needs to compromise, meaning
decide what is her highest priority versus what she can live with in
order to keep it in her price range.

If the computers she's looking at are upgradeable, find out how much
it would cost to add additional RAM to each. That will help her decide
how high of a priority onboard RAM should be.

As for the hard drive, unless she has a substantial collection of
video files, she probably can get by just fine with a 500GB hard drive
or even smaller. What you and she may not have thought about is the
fact that she can - and should - store a lot of her content on at
least one backup drive anyway. Flash drives are cheap and easy to use.
I'd recommend she not worry about onboard hard drive size unless/until
she actually comes close to capacity, at which point she can either
upgrade the drive or archive some of her content to external storage.

Laptop:
Her daughter was in BJ's in another city I think and thought this was
a good idea, $255, 2.16GHz
https://www.amazon.com/Discontinued-...ustomerReviews
With win 8.1 installed. Not really a laptop, more of a tablet with a
detachable keyboard. Only 32 gig SSD, which is not enough. Repairman
says can't be changed to a mechanical harddrive. Is that really true?

Doesn't matter. Look, it's the 21st century. You shouldn't be using
your computer's hard drive for primary data storage anyway, because if
you're hacked or if it dies, you're hosed. Keep the majority of your
data on external storage, and keep at least two copies. Just keep on
the internal drive the stuff you use most frequently. You can buy a
low-profile 64GB flash drive for under twenty bucks. Stick the flash
drive in the laptop and leave it in there. If she runs out of space on
the hard drive, she can use the flash drive. If 64GB isn't enough, buy
a 128GB drive. You can buy a 1TB external drive for around fifty
bucks, if she insists she needs all that space.

Incidentally, also at Microcenter, for $250:
Lenovo ThinkPad T420 14.1" Laptop Refurbished - Intel Core i5 2.5GHz;
Win 7 Pro 64-bit; 4GB RAM; 320GB Hard Drive
http://www.microcenter.com/product/4...bished_-_Black


She wanted to give it to a grandchild to watch movies and they told
her it couldn't do that either.

That laptop will play movies. I have one by a different company with
comparable specs. Plays movies just fine. Either there's a
user/interface problem, or the grandkid is angling for a spiffier laptop.


HP must have had some market in mind when they designed these. If she
knew what sort of person could use this, she might well give it to
one, or their club, or a poor member of the group, but neither of us
know who could use this. Do you know?

Students and travelers. It's small and lightweight, so easy to
transport. Like I said, you really don't need much onboard storage,
because documents take up very little space, and audio/video files can
be stored on flash drives. Its measly amount of RAM means it's poky
compared to a typical pc. In other words, it takes several seconds for
an application to launch and initialize. If you can live with that, it
works fine.

What's wrong with HP that they even sell these things?

Believe it or not, there are people who have to buy within their
means, and live with what they can afford. There are also people
willing to accept the tradeoff of limited onboard storage and RAM in
exchange for low price and light weight/small size.

Thank you both for your detailed answers. I've started going over
them but it will take some time. But this one point stands out.

\On Thu, 07 Jul 2016 10:25:30 -0400, Paul wrote:


She wanted to give it to a grandchild to watch movies and they told
her it couldn't do that either.

Then what is it for ? A plastic doorstop ? Of course it plays movies.
The movies can be stored on an SD.

You mean getting a little SD card reader that plugs into the USB port
and a 64 gig SD card. I just bought one, grade 10 or whatever the
fast ones are called, and it was $18. Or even a 64GB flashdrive?

That would be great for the kids.

OTOH, it might not be so bad for her either. She could do that
herself and then instead of 32Gigs she'd have 96G, which is more than
I have. (I have 75 and I've used 60.)

The problem would be if she can't read and write to an SD card as much
as one can to a HDD, without breaking it. That was true for
flashdrives, not that many writes and it was broken. I don't know if
it's still true.

On Thu, 07 Jul 2016 10:25:30 -0400, Paul wrote:

And the SD slot is an essential
element of making it useful.

It already has an SD slot? I didn't look up her device because I was
busy looking up the microcenter ones your listed.

She had taken this to Best Buy for "repair" though it was new, and
they sent her home with "external drives". I didn't think she meant
something as convenient as an SD card. I should go over there. A
picture is worth a thousand words, plus she has a French accent.

On Thu, 07 Jul 2016 18:46:50 -0400, Micky
wrote:

The problem would be if she can't read and write to an SD card as much
as one can to a HDD, without breaking it. That was true for
flashdrives, not that many writes and it was broken. I don't know if
it's still true.

I have a pile of flash drives from 2002 that still work fine. In fact, I
don't think I've ever had a flash drive that has stopped working.

--

Char Jackson

On Fri, 08 Jul 2016 03:03:43 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Thu, 07 Jul 2016 18:46:50 -0400, Micky
wrote:

The problem would be if she can't read and write to an SD card as much
as one can to a HDD, without breaking it. That was true for
flashdrives, not that many writes and it was broken. I don't know if
it's still true.

BTW, I don't know what she said first but I talked to her again and
but they didn't give/sell her several external drives. They are just
flash drives, and I can see why they suggested 3 small ones (8 gigs?)
rather than 1 big one. Less money and more versatility for backing
up .

I have a pile of flash drives from 2002 that still work fine. In fact, I
don't think I've ever had a flash drive that has stopped working.

Good to hear.

I don't count this but I actually have a no-brand one that I bought
used at a hamfest, that was bigger but cheaper than most of the ones
for sale then, and before I could even use it, it's measured size kept
decreasing until it was about zero. It was smaller than rated when I
got it. That's why it was cheap.

I think she's okay with the laptop, in fact I might like to have
something like she does (and it might have been cheaper at BJ's than
the price I gave, because maybe that's what prompted her daughter to
buy it.) I should be happy she's paying stores to do this work and
not asking me to. I know I'll regret it if I get myself farther in,
but I hate to see friends waste money.

I know the desktop is old. It's XP and it was old when her tenant and
I repaired it a couple years ago. He bought from Craig's list the
identical Dell computer and we just changed harddrives, so she has a
spare part for every part in the computer except whatever was broken
about hers the last time, which I didn't know and don't remember.

Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 07 Jul 2016 18:46:50 -0400, Micky
wrote:

The problem would be if she can't read and write to an SD card as much
as one can to a HDD, without breaking it. That was true for
flashdrives, not that many writes and it was broken. I don't know if
it's still true.

I have a pile of flash drives from 2002 that still work fine. In fact, I
don't think I've ever had a flash drive that has stopped working.


If you buy any TLC-based ones today, your 2002 device will
easily outlast it. I have a couple dead TLC ones here.
You might see TLC in a 32GB to 128GB stick, that sort
of range.

You find out they're TLC, when you disassemble them, and
Google the chip part number. When they're dead, then you
have a perfect opportunity to track down what they were.

Paul

On Fri, 08 Jul 2016 04:55:55 -0400, Micky
wrote:

I think she's okay with the laptop,

Maybe I can convince her of this. Come to think of it, her tenant
who wa my friend before he rented 1/3 of her house, hinted that she
was stubborn and could not be argued with. And I think after years
living so close, she loved him. She cried when he died this past
March. I certainly won't get anywhere trying to convince her of
anything, but I'll give it a try.

in fact I might like to have
something like she does (and it might have been cheaper at BJ's than
the price I gave, because maybe that's what prompted her daughter to
buy it.) I should be happy she's paying stores to do this work and
not asking me to. I know I'll regret it if I get myself farther in,
but I hate to see friends waste money.

On Fri, 08 Jul 2016 04:57:49 -0400, Paul wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 07 Jul 2016 18:46:50 -0400, Micky
wrote:

The problem would be if she can't read and write to an SD card as much
as one can to a HDD, without breaking it. That was true for
flashdrives, not that many writes and it was broken. I don't know if
it's still true.

I have a pile of flash drives from 2002 that still work fine. In fact, I
don't think I've ever had a flash drive that has stopped working.


If you buy any TLC-based ones today, your 2002 device will
easily outlast it. I have a couple dead TLC ones here.
You might see TLC in a 32GB to 128GB stick, that sort
of range.

Do you get any warning when they're dying? Or is the only remedy to
back up to a hard drive every night and even then you lose one day's
worth?

You find out they're TLC, when you disassemble them, and
Google the chip part number. When they're dead, then you
have a perfect opportunity to track down what they were.

Paul

Micky wrote:
On Fri, 08 Jul 2016 04:57:49 -0400, Paul wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 07 Jul 2016 18:46:50 -0400, Micky
wrote:

The problem would be if she can't read and write to an SD card as much
as one can to a HDD, without breaking it. That was true for
flashdrives, not that many writes and it was broken. I don't know if
it's still true.
I have a pile of flash drives from 2002 that still work fine. In fact, I
don't think I've ever had a flash drive that has stopped working.

If you buy any TLC-based ones today, your 2002 device will
easily outlast it. I have a couple dead TLC ones here.
You might see TLC in a 32GB to 128GB stick, that sort
of range.

Do you get any warning when they're dying? Or is the only remedy to
back up to a hard drive every night and even then you lose one day's
worth?
You find out they're TLC, when you disassemble them, and
Google the chip part number. When they're dead, then you
have a perfect opportunity to track down what they were.

Paul

My TLC flash have both "switched to low speed operation".
As if using a lot of spare blocks or something. And
whatever I was doing at the time, would never finish.

Paul

On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 00:11:00 -0400, Paul wrote:

Micky wrote:
On Fri, 08 Jul 2016 04:57:49 -0400, Paul wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 07 Jul 2016 18:46:50 -0400, Micky
wrote:

The problem would be if she can't read and write to an SD card as much
as one can to a HDD, without breaking it. That was true for
flashdrives, not that many writes and it was broken. I don't know if
it's still true.
I have a pile of flash drives from 2002 that still work fine. In fact, I
don't think I've ever had a flash drive that has stopped working.

If you buy any TLC-based ones today, your 2002 device will
easily outlast it. I have a couple dead TLC ones here.
You might see TLC in a 32GB to 128GB stick, that sort
of range.

Do you get any warning when they're dying? Or is the only remedy to
back up to a hard drive every night and even then you lose one day's
worth?
You find out they're TLC, when you disassemble them, and
Google the chip part number. When they're dead, then you
have a perfect opportunity to track down what they were.

Paul

My TLC flash have both "switched to low speed operation".
As if using a lot of spare blocks or something. And
whatever I was doing at the time, would never finish.

That's not too bad. I'll try to work that in to the conversation
when trying to convince my friend her laptop is not bad. She tried
to get them to take it back, but HP said it's BJ's problem and if
there's a BJ in Baltimore, they probably said it was the problem of
the BJ where her daughter bought it, and then there's the fact that it
doesn't look brand spanking new anymore, probably. Maybe I'll go
over there tomorrow.

Paul