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Dirty Tricks?



 
 
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  #16  
Old November 14th 14, 02:09 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Bob Henson[_2_]
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Posts: 695
Default Dirty Tricks?

On 13/11/2014 23:18, Joel wrote:
"Bob Henson" escreveu na mensagem ...

P.S. to the last message. As I was about to delete the whole shooting
match, I remembered Start 8 - a very similar program to Classic Shell
and also written only for Windows 8. It works just fine, almost as good
as Classic Shell. I will still be deleting the whole thing in 30 days
time (Start 8 is only free for 30 days) but it looks as though the
conspiracy theory is true!
--
Treat each day like it's your last - one day you'll be right.


Try Start Menu X
http://www.startmenux.com/index.html


Again, it works just fine - it would seem that Microsoft only has it in
for Classic Shell. Albeit not as configurable as Classic Shell, it does
the job nicely. I'll leave that one on and carry on using it for a while.

--
A hangover is the wrath of grapes.

Bob
Tetbury, Gloucestershire, UK
Ads
  #17  
Old November 14th 14, 02:18 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Seth
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Posts: 466
Default Dirty Tricks?

Bob Henson explained :
On 13/11/2014 23:18, Joel wrote:
"Bob Henson" escreveu na mensagem ...

P.S. to the last message. As I was about to delete the whole shooting
match, I remembered Start 8 - a very similar program to Classic Shell
and also written only for Windows 8. It works just fine, almost as good
as Classic Shell. I will still be deleting the whole thing in 30 days
time (Start 8 is only free for 30 days) but it looks as though the
conspiracy theory is true!
--
Treat each day like it's your last - one day you'll be right.


Try Start Menu X
http://www.startmenux.com/index.html


Again, it works just fine - it would seem that Microsoft only has it in
for Classic Shell. Albeit not as configurable as Classic Shell, it does
the job nicely. I'll leave that one on and carry on using it for a while.


Why would Microsoft target that one single app vs. the others that do
the same thing?

It is more likely a bug in the app itself that some change in the OS
exposed.
  #18  
Old November 14th 14, 02:55 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Bob Henson[_2_]
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Posts: 695
Default Dirty Tricks?

On 14/11/2014 13:18, Seth wrote:
Bob Henson explained :
On 13/11/2014 23:18, Joel wrote:
"Bob Henson" escreveu na mensagem ...

P.S. to the last message. As I was about to delete the whole shooting
match, I remembered Start 8 - a very similar program to Classic Shell
and also written only for Windows 8. It works just fine, almost as good
as Classic Shell. I will still be deleting the whole thing in 30 days
time (Start 8 is only free for 30 days) but it looks as though the
conspiracy theory is true!
--
Treat each day like it's your last - one day you'll be right.

Try Start Menu X
http://www.startmenux.com/index.html


Again, it works just fine - it would seem that Microsoft only has it in
for Classic Shell. Albeit not as configurable as Classic Shell, it does
the job nicely. I'll leave that one on and carry on using it for a while.


Why would Microsoft target that one single app vs. the others that do
the same thing?


Because it is by far the most popular way of removing the changes that
no-one wants?


It is more likely a bug in the app itself that some change in the OS
exposed.


Perhaps I just like conspiracy theories :-) The thing that made me
suspicious is that it worked perfectly in the first two builds of
Windows 10. That doesn't mean that it *was* deliberate, but it does mean
that it's nothing to do with Classic Shell - the change is in Windows
10. Knowing that Redmond has already had a go at Classic Shell
specifically in the past - that makes me think they're up to their usual
heavy handed way of dealing with things they don't like. It may be
nothing of the kind, of course.

--
Atheist - a person with no invisible means of support.

Bob
Tetbury, Gloucestershire, UK
  #19  
Old November 14th 14, 07:17 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
VanguardLH[_2_]
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Posts: 10,881
Default Dirty Tricks?

Bob Henson wrote:

Again, it works just fine - it would seem that Microsoft only has it in
for Classic Shell. Albeit not as configurable as Classic Shell, it does
the job nicely. I'll leave that one on and carry on using it for a while.


Do these other shell enhancers/replacements also include modifying
Windows Explorer? As I recall Start8 did nothing to Windows Explorer,
just to the Start menu. ClassicShell can also modify Windows Explorer
to be more retro. ClassicShell can also modify Internet Explorer. So
ClassicShell is doing more than the other Start menu only enhancers
which means there could be a conflict with ClassicShell and something
other than the Start menu it modifies.

http://classicshell.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3349

So there had been what were deemed "minor" issues within builds prior to
where Microsoft blocked it via the compatibility service. That you
didn't encounter or notice those problems doesn't mean that ClassicShell
was okay under Win10 TP. Maybe something not so minor came up. The
others not getting blocked could be that they are not on Microsoft's
radar or they do not cause the problems that ClassicShell does (which
does more than the others).

To be fair, I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft purposedly blocked ALL
such shell replacements. The tech preview version is to be tested for
what it is, not what it be twisted into. You're supposed to be testing
the tech preview and providing feedback on that. Program compatibility
is a part of that testing but shell replacements are hardly mainstream
and detract from you testing the OS features themselves.
  #20  
Old November 14th 14, 07:42 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
VanguardLH[_2_]
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Posts: 10,881
Default Dirty Tricks?

Bob Henson wrote:

Perhaps I just like conspiracy theories :-) The thing that made me
suspicious is that it worked perfectly in the first two builds of
Windows 10. That doesn't mean that it *was* deliberate, but it does mean
that it's nothing to do with Classic Shell - the change is in Windows
10. Knowing that Redmond has already had a go at Classic Shell
specifically in the past - that makes me think they're up to their usual
heavy handed way of dealing with things they don't like. It may be
nothing of the kind, of course.


Sorry, the conspiracy theory is too lame. Microsoft "has it in" for any
app that is not compatible with a new version of Windows. Microsoft
cannot deem an app is non-compatible until it gets tested, so it appears
Microsoft has some data showing ClassicShell causes problems on the
*technical preview* of Windows 10. This may change by the time the
consumer preview is released. Instead of blocking that app, Microsoft
might by then know what settings to change to permit that app to run
within a compatibility environ. There may be new features planned for
Win10 with which ClassicShell causes irreparable harm. In that case, it
is not Microsoft's responsibility to fix the app. The authors of the
app will have to do that whenever they feel like it.

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/downl....aspx?id=41162

You'll find not only applications that Microsoft is unaware if
compatible or not but some that are specifically listed as "Not
compatible". Some are even listed as compatible under Windows 7 but not
under Windows 8, so there were intrinsic features or functions in
Windows 8 but not back in Windows 7 that got interferred with by those
apps. Alas, there isn't another tab in the spreadsheet for the "Not
compatible" apps to know without separate research as to why they are
considered not compatible.

If Microsoft "had it in" for ClassicShell, they would "have it in" for
all the other shell replacements or enhancers as well as other tools
they "don't like", like Nirsoft.

If Microsoft decided to not just provide a compatibility environ for an
otherwise incompatible or misbehaving app and instead block it, I
suspect there really is something wrong with that app on THAT version of
Windows. ClassicShell isn't just a Start menu replacement and digs in
elsewhere that maybe now is a no-no.

Remember back in Windows XP when you used regedit.exe to edit the
registry that if you had a problem editing or deleting a key that you
had to change permissions on it and then edit or delete it? Well, in
Windows 7, Microsoft removed that capability on many registry keys. You
can't change permissions so you can't edit or delete that registry key.
If some registry tweaker was corrosive to that new in-built registry
protection then it might also get blocked by the Compatibility Service.

My theory is that ClassicShell does something to de-stablize Win10 or
one of its integrated ancilliary programs (Windows Explorer or Internet
Explorer) and why it got blocked. The ClassicShell devs say they're not
going to address the situation until much later when there is a release
candidate or when the product goes GA (general availability) with an RTM
(released to manufacturing) build. Microsoft thinks it found something
nasty about ClassicShell. It's not their job to fix that software.
It's the responsibility of the ClassicShell devs to find out what
they're trying to step on that isn't allowed in this new version of
Windows. The other Start menu enhancers are doing whatever bad thing
that ClassicShell does.
  #21  
Old November 14th 14, 07:51 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Bob Henson[_2_]
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Posts: 695
Default Dirty Tricks?

On 14/11/2014 6:17 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
Bob Henson wrote:


To be fair, I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft purposedly blocked ALL
such shell replacements. The tech preview version is to be tested for
what it is, not what it be twisted into. You're supposed to be testing
the tech preview and providing feedback on that. Program compatibility
is a part of that testing but shell replacements are hardly mainstream
and detract from you testing the OS features themselves.


I am doing exactly that, testing the preview and reporting back when I
find anything to report. If Microsoft want to know what will happen when
Windows 10 hits the real world, then they need to realise quickly that
they have made yet another giant cock-up. Windows 10 is Windows 8 with a
couple of tiny cosmetic changes, and most power users, gamers, and
enterprise users will immediately change the GUI to something usable -
if you can ever persuade them to change - so you could say that this is
the most important part of the testing.

There is nothing even vaguely revolutionary about Windows 10 that anyone
has reported so far, including those far, far more knowledgeable than me
(and I've seen nothing from Microsoft either) and if there is not, it
will fall flat on it's face like 8 and 8.1. What I am doing is seeing if
it can be made usable. So far only one program (Classic Shell) that I
ran on Windows 7 (and 8 and 8.1) has refused to run on it - so it isn't
a fat lot different from Windows 7 internally, and not a patch on it
externally. Only one registry tweak has failed to have any effect so far
- and that did no harm either, I imagine it was blocked.

I suspect that the only people who will like this new version are the
tablet and phone users - and then only if there are any improvements for
them that I can't see on my desktop. I don't use either (mine are
Android) so I can't help them with that. In any case, I can't seem many
people trying out Windows 10 on a tablet (can you dual boot with Windows
tablets and diddly squat memory - or run a VM?) as no-one will want to
overwrite what works with what might not - so I think all they will get
for some time is the reports of desktop users. The latter will all want
a decent menu system.

I would have thought that Microsoft would have been very interested in
what we desktop users had to say because that is what all their
enterprise customers will have to say - you would imagine they should
have learned their lessons from 8 and 8.1. I wouldn't hold my breath
waiting for them to learn, though - here are no signs of it to date.

--
Bob
Tetbury, Gloucestershire, UK
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
  #22  
Old November 14th 14, 09:36 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Nil[_5_]
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Posts: 1,731
Default Dirty Tricks?

On 14 Nov 2014, Bob Henson wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-10:

Again, it works just fine - it would seem that Microsoft only has
it in for Classic Shell.


That may be what it "seems" to you, but I don't buy it. I think it's
more likely that there is something specific in the programming of
Classic Shell that conflicts with Windows 10's security or interface. I
expect that Classic Shell will adjust things to make it more compatible
before long.
  #23  
Old November 14th 14, 09:46 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
VanguardLH[_2_]
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Posts: 10,881
Default Dirty Tricks?

Bob Henson wrote:

On 14/11/2014 6:17 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
Bob Henson wrote:


To be fair, I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft purposedly blocked ALL
such shell replacements. The tech preview version is to be tested for
what it is, not what it be twisted into. You're supposed to be testing
the tech preview and providing feedback on that. Program compatibility
is a part of that testing but shell replacements are hardly mainstream
and detract from you testing the OS features themselves.


I am doing exactly that, testing the preview and reporting back when I
find anything to report. If Microsoft want to know what will happen when
Windows 10 hits the real world, then they need to realise quickly that
they have made yet another giant cock-up.


Hardly a giant cock-up. How many Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 users are there?
Windows 8 alone, the failed OS, had over 100 million licenses sold in
just over 6 months from its GA (general availability). They've sold
more since then. Then add in all the users of Windows 7. How many
ClassicShell users are there? 15 million downloads of ClassicShell does
NOT equate to 15 million users. They don't require registration so
there's no way to know how many ClassicShell users there really are.
Your experience represents a giant impact to a tiny percentage of all
Windows users.

To Microsoft, the number of ClassicShell users is tiny. You think it's
worth their time to make a fix for a program they found incompatible?
How about all those apps that Microsoft lists as incompatible in prior
versions of Windows? You think Microsoft is going to waste their time
on those, too? That's not their job. It is there job to protect the
usability of their product.

Backwards compatibility is designed regarding the old versions of THEIR
product (old versions of Windows). It isn't designed to accomodate
individual applications. That's why the app devs are the ones that have
to modify code to make their product work under a new Windows version.

Windows 10 is Windows 8 with a
couple of tiny cosmetic changes, and most power users, gamers, and
enterprise users will immediately change the GUI to something usable -
if you can ever persuade them to change - so you could say that this is
the most important part of the testing.


Really? My opinion is this type of app would have a tiny populace of
users. Remember that distribution of Windows isn't just to 1-license
using end users (only a small percentage of which will replace or modify
the shell) but also to mega-license using corporations where such shell
modifications are not permitted. In your small realm of friends there
may be a high percentage of users replacing the shell. From what I've
seen working with customers (not my small clique of friends) and at
corporations is that nearly no one replaces the shell.

You're making a mountain out of an ant hill regarding Microsoft's
dastardly plot to squelch ClassicShell.

There is nothing even vaguely revolutionary about Windows 10 that anyone
has reported so far, including those far, far more knowledgeable than me
(and I've seen nothing from Microsoft either) and if there is not, it
will fall flat on it's face like 8 and 8.1.


If there was no difference other than cosemtic then an app would not be
listed as incompatible. I don't agree with your conspiracy theory.

What I am doing is seeing if it can be made usable. So far only one
program (Classic Shell) that I ran on Windows 7 (and 8 and 8.1) has
refused to run on it - so it isn't a fat lot different from Windows 7
internally, and not a patch on it externally. Only one registry tweak
has failed to have any effect so far - and that did no harm either, I
imagine it was blocked.


Is it the installer or the app itself that is block as non-compatible?
The articles on how to disable compatibility checking didn't work? Then
YOU might find what Microsoft found regarding problems with ClassicShell
assuming you do full testing of ClassicShell, like how it modifies not
just the Start menu but also Windows Explorer and Internet Explorer and
run a good number of test cases.

The folks over at the ClassicShell forum don't want discussions of
Windows 10 incompatiblity because they're already aware of the problem
and will fix it later. However, you might be able to establish a
private message thread with a moderator or dev to get them to release to
you what they think Microsoft thinks is the problem. Then in your
bypass of compatibility check and testing of ClassicShell you might have
an idea on what to test to see if you can force an exhibit of the
problem(s).

I suspect that the only people who will like this new version are the
tablet and phone users - and then only if there are any improvements for
them that I can't see on my desktop.


I also don't care for the mobile-centric design of Windows since version
8. It's down-designed for toy computers. If they wanted to capture the
mobile market, they should've coded a Windows versions for that but left
a more robust version for desktops. They do for the embedded version of
Windows used, for example, on point-of-sale registers so why not for the
mobile market, too?

I don't use either (mine are
Android) so I can't help them with that. In any case, I can't seem many
people trying out Windows 10 on a tablet (can you dual boot with Windows
tablets and diddly squat memory - or run a VM?) as no-one will want to
overwrite what works with what might not - so I think all they will get
for some time is the reports of desktop users. The latter will all want
a decent menu system.


They keep playing around trying to find what the majority of their
[corporate] users want. Productivity is more important than
customization or cuteness. They had a UI that worked for a long time
but apparently felt the need to find some better, well, different. To
proffer a product as a new version meant changing it somehow and the GUI
was probably the easiest and most visible change they could make.

If you make a product too good, where's the sales volume for [corporate]
technical support? Microsoft reports $20B in revenue at Q3 of 2013.
Yet they reported only $5.7B in Windows sales. The rest comes from
something other than Windows sales. They are into many services to
generate revenue but I'd be interested in knowing how much they rake in
for tech support revenue versus Windows sales.
  #24  
Old November 14th 14, 09:47 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Bill[_40_]
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Posts: 346
Default Dirty Tricks?

In message , Bob Henson
writes
I suspect that the only people who will like this new version are the
tablet and phone users - and then only if there are any improvements
for them that I can't see on my desktop. I don't use either (mine are
Android) so I can't help them with that. In any case, I can't seem many
people trying out Windows 10 on a tablet (can you dual boot with
Windows tablets and diddly squat memory - or run a VM?) as no-one will
want to overwrite what works with what might not - so I think all they
will get for some time is the reports of desktop users. The latter will
all want a decent menu system.


Just a FWIW here, but I'm testing the preview on an old Lenovo tablet
convertible laptop and, although I agree the start menu needs to get
back to having a list of programs, I think it is a major improvement
over 8.1. I run 8.1 on a similar tablet and dislike it.

For reasons that I can't remember (I'm very old, too), I have never got
on with things like classic shell, start8 and so on. I've installed them
but got very frustrated with things they stopped me doing.

On the W10 machine I have added the "All Programs" as a toolbar, just
like I did on the 8.1 machine. This provides something very close to a
decent menu. What I didn't have to do was add a charms button to the
task bar without which 8.1 was hopeless.

I now have a machine that can run up to 8gigs of ram, has a 500G or more
HD and can be a tablet or use keyboard and (on this) trackpoint. The pen
lets me draw or access fine print (I think where these have finger
touch, it's not sensitive or multi ).
--
Bill
  #25  
Old November 14th 14, 10:01 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
VanguardLH[_2_]
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Posts: 10,881
Default Dirty Tricks?

Nil wrote:

Bob Henson wrote:

Again, it works just fine - it would seem that Microsoft only has
it in for Classic Shell.


That may be what it "seems" to you, but I don't buy it. I think it's
more likely that there is something specific in the programming of
Classic Shell that conflicts with Windows 10's security or interface. I
expect that Classic Shell will adjust things to make it more compatible
before long.


The Windows 10 Consumer Preview release (which will be dubbed Windows 10
"Technical Preview for Consumers" - to confuse it with the "Technical
Preview" release - Microsoft loves confusion) will be "released early
2015". Early does not equate to Q1 or Q2 so "early" doesn't really
specify when. It is expected the RTM (release to manufacturing) release
will occupy a bit before the expiration of the Consumer Preview release.

"We have a Consumer Preview in early 2015, the Developer Preview in
April, followed by the launch of the final version by the end of the
year. Technical Preview is not the way to get an idea of what to expect
in the Consumer Preview, also not a place for developers to try to
develop an application in Windows 10 it is intended for users of our
company, " a Microsoft statement.

ClassicShell has stated they will not address code changes to make their
product compatible with Windows 10 until there is a release candidate or
RTM (release to manufacturing) release. So ClassicShell may not fix its
Win10 compatiblities until late spring or summer of 2015 or maybe even
for more than a year from now.

ClassicShell has admitted they have compatibility problems with Windows
10 TP. Yet they don't mention what they are. If the incompatibility is
only with their installer and not their application, perhaps they should
provide an alternate installation method so ClassicShell enthusiasts
could volunteer their testing time to assist ClassicShell.
 




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