A Windows XP help forum. PCbanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » PCbanter forum » Microsoft Windows 8 » Windows 8 Help Forum
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Last Question - System Recovery



 
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #1  
Old February 25th 15, 06:28 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
R.H. Breener[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 112
Default Last Question - System Recovery

I tried to burn a Recovery disk as per a popup. The DVD made one part way,
and stopped working - the tray opened. The program said to return the disk
to the drive and I did so. That was the end of the DVD drive. I refused to
open even with the Paperclip-in-hole move. I got several errors so did a
System Restore. That didn't help so decided to do a System Recovery already,
just to find MS (or Dell) removed that from W8 as well. There is no onboard
image to do a System Recovery from. There is no Recovery Image on this PC
so I decided to return it for something else or a refund if I can get it.

With no Backup Image - where was it trying to make a Recovery Disk to do a
System Recovery from? I will have to delete all the things on it by hand
now since there is no way to reinstall the OS and restore it to box
condition. Dell will get a free DVD disk in the locked drive.

My question is - why did MS remove the backup image or is that a Dell
decision? I really want to know.

Thanks again for all the help you all have been.

Ads
  #2  
Old February 25th 15, 08:08 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,275
Default Last Question - System Recovery

R.H. Breener wrote:
I tried to burn a Recovery disk as per a popup. The DVD made one part
way, and stopped working - the tray opened. The program said to return
the disk to the drive and I did so. That was the end of the DVD drive. I
refused to open even with the Paperclip-in-hole move. I got several
errors so did a System Restore. That didn't help so decided to do a
System Recovery already, just to find MS (or Dell) removed that from W8
as well. There is no onboard image to do a System Recovery from. There
is no Recovery Image on this PC so I decided to return it for something
else or a refund if I can get it.

With no Backup Image - where was it trying to make a Recovery Disk to do
a System Recovery from? I will have to delete all the things on it by
hand now since there is no way to reinstall the OS and restore it to box
condition. Dell will get a free DVD disk in the locked drive.

My question is - why did MS remove the backup image or is that a Dell
decision? I really want to know.

Thanks again for all the help you all have been.


On the Microsoft side, there are two kinds of disks.

DVD 3.5GB - this contains enough files to reinstall the OS.
- image available when making electronic purchase (a download)
- comes in retail box (a 32 bit disc, a 64 bit disc)
CD 200MB - recovery CD (boot disc) - this boots to Command Prompt
- used for maintenance
- Microsoft doesn't hand this out, you make this on the computer
when prompted (or if in the backup control panel). Possibly
recdisc.exe ?

On the Dell side

(3) DVD ~4GB each - the 12GB of data is enough to restore the factory C: partition
- a tiny "boot" partition, without drive letter, helps
the system boot, while C: holds the vast majority of files

(1) DVD - driver disc specific to computer model
- if using a *retail* DVD, you could use this disc afterwards
to install laptop video driver. That's what I used mine for.

On a new computer, you will receive prompts within the first couple
of days of usage.

A company like Dell prompts you to burn four DVDs.

A separate prompt shows up from Microsoft, suggesting the preparation
of the 200MB CD (you can burn that to a blank DVD if you want).

Now, say the computer is a bit broken, so you boot the 200MB CD.
You can go to Command Prompt there, and do a CHKDSK of C:, and
nothing prevents it from running immediately.

On the Microsoft 3.5GB DVD, most of the files are inside
"install.wim" or "install.esd". The WIM format can be opened
with 7ZIP, if you want to get some idea of the contents. No
tool currently opens an ESD (spec unavailable, crypto unknown).
The two DVDs I got from Microsoft (via download) are .esd type,
and I paid $39.95 each for the OS (Win8). I cannot examine
the file contents.

The 200MB boot CD contains "boot.wim", which has the WinPE
environment files in it. It's a bit like BartPE, a
"PreInstall Environment". It's like a tiny OS, but
with the understanding that lots of stuff is removed,
so you can't run the computer forever with it (free ride).

Don't forget the "sevenforums.com" and "eightforums.com"
sites, as they have pictures of some of this stuff.

When you boot the 200MB CD, it looks like this.

http://www.sevenforums.com/attachmen...ry_options.jpg

The bottom-most option, takes you to a Command Prompt.
And you can do stuff there like "diskpart", to add a
partition, or "chkdsk". You can even do "bcdedit" from
there, edit the BCD (binary) file and change some
of the boot info (if it is corrupted).

In the above picture, the "Startup Repair" is a popular
option. That can fix up the tiny boot partition if it's
broken, all on its own. The "Startup Repair" can be
run three times in a row (if each attempt doesn't
work, try again, up to three times). The last pass,
the "Startup Repair" reads the entire C and tries
to repair sectors. So even without a Comp.Sci
degree, you can do a fair amount of automated
repair, with that one button.

Have fun,
Paul
  #3  
Old February 25th 15, 08:11 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
...winston‫
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,128
Default Last Question - System Recovery

R.H. Breener wrote:
I tried to burn a Recovery disk as per a popup. The DVD made one part
way, and stopped working - the tray opened. The program said to return
the disk to the drive and I did so. That was the end of the DVD drive. I
refused to open even with the Paperclip-in-hole move. I got several
errors so did a System Restore. That didn't help so decided to do a
System Recovery already, just to find MS (or Dell) removed that from W8
as well. There is no onboard image to do a System Recovery from. There
is no Recovery Image on this PC so I decided to return it for something
else or a refund if I can get it.

With no Backup Image - where was it trying to make a Recovery Disk to do
a System Recovery from? I will have to delete all the things on it by
hand now since there is no way to reinstall the OS and restore it to box
condition. Dell will get a free DVD disk in the locked drive.

My question is - why did MS remove the backup image or is that a Dell
decision? I really want to know.

Thanks again for all the help you all have been.


MSFT didn't remove a backup image.
Dell, by contract, is required for all pre-installed o/s to include the
option for the user to create Recovery Media, a Recovery Partition on
the hard drive for use with the created or Dell provided or ordered
Recovery media.

Once an 8.0 pc (if your laptop was 8.0 and not delivered as 8.1) is
upgraded to 8.1 MSFT also provides the option for all 8.1 users to
download an iso to create Recovery media for Refresh or Resetting the o/s.

--
....winston
msft mvp consumer apps
  #4  
Old February 25th 15, 07:36 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Bill[_40_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 346
Default Last Question - System Recovery

In message , R.H. Breener
writes
I tried to burn a Recovery disk as per a popup. The DVD made one part
way, and stopped working - the tray opened. The program said to return
the disk to the drive and I did so. That was the end of the DVD drive.
I refused to open even with the Paperclip-in-hole move. I got several
errors so did a System Restore. That didn't help so decided to do a
System Recovery already, just to find MS (or Dell) removed that from W8
as well. There is no onboard image to do a System Recovery from. There
Recovery Image on this PC so I decided to return it for something else
or a refund if I can get it.

With no Backup Image - where was it trying to make a Recovery Disk to
do a System Recovery from? I will have to delete all the things on it
by hand now since there is no way to reinstall the OS and restore it to
box condition. Dell will get a free DVD disk in the locked drive.

My question is - why did MS remove the backup image or is that a Dell
decision? I really want to know.

Thanks again for all the help you all have been.


This, and the other threads, really does demonstrate why W8 has the
reputation it so richly deserves. Young Mr. Breener sounds exactly like
many of my friends.

I have 2 points to make:

1. If you know anyone you trust who does use the OS successfully,
install Teamviewer or one of the other, similar, programs and let them
guide you.

2. Invest in an external usb HD for backups and image files. Windows 8
does have the inbuilt program to make an image file of the whole
machine, just like Windows 7. It has just been hidden away more
rigorously in the bowels of File History. It also doesn't appear here on
a machine with no DVD drive until I plug in the external HD.
--
Bill
  #5  
Old February 25th 15, 10:14 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,275
Default Last Question - System Recovery

R.H. Breener wrote:
I tried to burn a Recovery disk as per a popup. The DVD made one part
way, and stopped working - the tray opened. The program said to return
the disk to the drive and I did so. That was the end of the DVD drive. I
refused to open even with the Paperclip-in-hole move. I got several
errors so did a System Restore. That didn't help so decided to do a
System Recovery already, just to find MS (or Dell) removed that from W8
as well. There is no onboard image to do a System Recovery from. There
is no Recovery Image on this PC so I decided to return it for something
else or a refund if I can get it.

With no Backup Image - where was it trying to make a Recovery Disk to do
a System Recovery from? I will have to delete all the things on it by
hand now since there is no way to reinstall the OS and restore it to box
condition. Dell will get a free DVD disk in the locked drive.

My question is - why did MS remove the backup image or is that a Dell
decision? I really want to know.

Thanks again for all the help you all have been.


That might have been the prompt to burn a 200MB boot CD.

Note that tablets and laptops are treated differently now.

Tablets come in ARM processor and Intel processor versions.
The Intel processor ones, are the ones to get. The ARM
is a dead end on Windows (uses Secure Boot). The ARM one
is more likely to end up as a door stop.

On tablets now, with Windows 8, they use "WIM Boot"
technique. Instead of conventional "OS installation",
it works similarly to a Linux LiveCD on USB stick. The
initial set of OS files stays inside "install.wim". The
computer boots, and decompresses files from "install.wim"
on the fly. When files are updated, an overlay file system
records the difference on the internal storage device (Flash memory).
This means less Flash memory is wasted, and a 32GB flash chip
is enough to run Windows.

A question for the tablet scenario would be, even if you
backed up the storage device, could you restore to it again ?
I'm guessing you can, but haven't seen any web page with
the details.

The laptop should have a larger storage device. Partitioning
options include MBR and GPT (even for disks less than 2TB
in size now, they use GPT). A laptop with GPT setup (becoming
more common), can have as many as five partitions. If I
owned such a hunk of junk, I'd have to do forensics on the
whole damn thing, to find 12GB worth of backup files. They're
probably in there somewhere.

And the user manuals on some of these units (like an MSI
laptop might be a single sheet of paper), you can't expect
uniform documentation quality. Some companies are a bit
better at docs, than others. Most of these docs are
non-technical "happy happy" docs, meant to deceive you
about the nature of what you bought. It's then harder to
get solid info on what lurks underneath (where is my
recovery partition???).

*******

When you go from Win8 to Win8.1, that can break the "Refresh"
and "Reset" features provided by Microsoft (not by Dell). It's
possible they've provided easier ways to fix this, as the
issue didn't seem to be addressed all that well a year
ago.

If you ask the average user here, how they "manage" their
computer, they'll tell you they use a "complete backup",
to get to the heart of the issue. If all the involved
companies are going to be stupid about this stuff,
there's nothing like a complete backup. The only place
I might have questions, is whether I understand the
tablet issues well enough, to have my ass covered.
For example, if you gave me an Android, I wouldn't
look on the backup issue with any enthusiasm, since
there are roadblocks to doing a good job. So tablets
and mobile devices, they make me nervous. With a
laptop or a desktop, I feel a bit more comfortable.
If I received a GPT-based laptop, well, it would
be forensic analysis time... I don't know if my
recovery partition is in there or not. It should be.

Paul
  #6  
Old February 26th 15, 01:55 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,449
Default Last Question - System Recovery

On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 16:14:40 -0500, Paul wrote:

The laptop should have a larger storage device. Partitioning
options include MBR and GPT (even for disks less than 2TB
in size now, they use GPT). A laptop with GPT setup (becoming
more common), can have as many as five partitions.


My Dell came with six partitions.

If I
owned such a hunk of junk, I'd have to do forensics on the
whole damn thing, to find 12GB worth of backup files. They're
probably in there somewhere.


If you mean a restore partition, yeah, it's there.

  #7  
Old February 26th 15, 03:02 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,275
Default Last Question - System Recovery

Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 16:14:40 -0500, Paul wrote:

The laptop should have a larger storage device. Partitioning
options include MBR and GPT (even for disks less than 2TB
in size now, they use GPT). A laptop with GPT setup (becoming
more common), can have as many as five partitions.


My Dell came with six partitions.

If I
owned such a hunk of junk, I'd have to do forensics on the
whole damn thing, to find 12GB worth of backup files. They're
probably in there somewhere.


If you mean a restore partition, yeah, it's there.


Is it something you can easily examine (if one of our
curious visitors want to look in there) ?

Paul

  #8  
Old February 26th 15, 05:06 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
R.H. Breener[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 112
Default Last Question - System Recovery


""...winston‫"" wrote in message
...
R.H. Breener wrote:
I tried to burn a Recovery disk as per a popup. The DVD made one part
way, and stopped working - the tray opened. The program said to return
the disk to the drive and I did so. That was the end of the DVD drive. I
refused to open even with the Paperclip-in-hole move. I got several
errors so did a System Restore. That didn't help so decided to do a
System Recovery already, just to find MS (or Dell) removed that from W8
as well. There is no onboard image to do a System Recovery from. There
is no Recovery Image on this PC so I decided to return it for something
else or a refund if I can get it.

With no Backup Image - where was it trying to make a Recovery Disk to do
a System Recovery from? I will have to delete all the things on it by
hand now since there is no way to reinstall the OS and restore it to box
condition. Dell will get a free DVD disk in the locked drive.

My question is - why did MS remove the backup image or is that a Dell
decision? I really want to know.

Thanks again for all the help you all have been.


MSFT didn't remove a backup image.
Dell, by contract, is required for all pre-installed o/s to include the
option for the user to create Recovery Media, a Recovery Partition on the
hard drive for use with the created or Dell provided or ordered Recovery
media.


That must be something new because both this old HP Vista and my HP W-7 at
home have C: drives and D: drives. D: drive says Recovery. No need for non
techies like myself to either pay someone or struggle ourselves to make a
Recovery Partition. This must be new with W-8. Dell provided no Recovery
media. A window popped up to make a Recovery disk which burnt part way and
the drive door opened. Another popup said to replace the Disk. I did. The
DVD draw locked up and never opened again. I returned the Dell today with
the DVD still in the locked drive. When I looked in Windows Explorer the DVD
drive no longer showed up as being there. Just C: drive. After the System
Recovery, using a ThumbDrive, it still wasn't there... at that point I
deleted the few things I had installed and put it back in the box.


Once an 8.0 pc (if your laptop was 8.0 and not delivered as 8.1) is
upgraded to 8.1 MSFT also provides the option for all 8.1 users to
download an iso to create Recovery media for Refresh or Resetting the o/s.


How are people supposed to know these things? There was no mention of an
iso file anywhere. There was nothing on the PC (8.1) telling me to go to
the website and download ANYTHING to create Recovery media. Just the
popups. No booklets come with PCs now either.


--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps


  #9  
Old February 26th 15, 05:21 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
R.H. Breener[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 112
Default Last Question - System Recovery


"Bill" wrote in message
...
In message , R.H. Breener
writes
I tried to burn a Recovery disk as per a popup. The DVD made one part
way, and stopped working - the tray opened. The program said to return
the disk to the drive and I did so. That was the end of the DVD drive. I
refused to open even with the Paperclip-in-hole move. I got several
errors so did a System Restore. That didn't help so decided to do a System
Recovery already, just to find MS (or Dell) removed that from W8 as well.
There is no onboard image to do a System Recovery from. There Recovery
Image on this PC so I decided to return it for something else or a refund
if I can get it.

With no Backup Image - where was it trying to make a Recovery Disk to do a
System Recovery from? I will have to delete all the things on it by hand
now since there is no way to reinstall the OS and restore it to box
condition. Dell will get a free DVD disk in the locked drive.

My question is - why did MS remove the backup image or is that a Dell
decision? I really want to know.

Thanks again for all the help you all have been.


This, and the other threads, really does demonstrate why W8 has the
reputation it so richly deserves. Young Mr. Breener sounds exactly like
many of my friends.

I have 2 points to make:

1. If you know anyone you trust who does use the OS successfully, install
Teamviewer or one of the other, similar, programs and let them guide you.


No, no one. Most people I know know less about computers than I do. One
guy from work was knowledgable but he moved. All they know is email and
Facebook. Family have all switched to MACS. If I even mentioned these W8
problems I'd have had to listen to 30 minutes of why I should switch to a
MAC.


2. Invest in an external usb HD for backups and image files. Windows 8
does have the inbuilt program to make an image file of the whole machine,
just like Windows 7. It has just been hidden away more rigorously in the
bowels of File History. It also doesn't appear here on a machine with no
DVD drive until I plug in the external HD.


Is MS hiding the backup files I so easily see on Vista and W7 called D:
Recovery? To do the Recovery W8 asked for a flash drive with 5 gigs free
which I always have on hand. It used that. Did the Recovery, still hab some
personal files, but the LT still didn't see the DVD drive. It never opened
again. At that point I had had it. As I said above Dell gets a free DVD.
;-)

--
Bill


  #10  
Old February 26th 15, 05:27 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,449
Default Last Question - System Recovery

On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 21:02:58 -0500, Paul wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 16:14:40 -0500, Paul wrote:

The laptop should have a larger storage device. Partitioning
options include MBR and GPT (even for disks less than 2TB
in size now, they use GPT). A laptop with GPT setup (becoming
more common), can have as many as five partitions.


My Dell came with six partitions.

If I
owned such a hunk of junk, I'd have to do forensics on the
whole damn thing, to find 12GB worth of backup files. They're
probably in there somewhere.


If you mean a restore partition, yeah, it's there.


Is it something you can easily examine (if one of our
curious visitors want to look in there) ?


I assigned a drive letter to the partition labeled PBR Image and as a result
I see the following which I *think* are the pieces of an image. Each would
fit comfortably on a DVD, for example.

#################

G:\dir /s
Volume in drive G is PBR Image
Volume Serial Number is 1F1E-70E0

Directory of G:\

09/28/2012 03:04 AM DIR DELL
09/28/2012 03:32 AM DIR Preload
0 File(s) 0 bytes

Directory of G:\DELL

09/28/2012 03:04 AM DIR .
09/28/2012 03:04 AM DIR ..
09/28/2012 03:32 AM DIR Image
0 File(s) 0 bytes

Directory of G:\DELL\Image

09/28/2012 03:32 AM DIR .
09/28/2012 03:32 AM DIR ..
09/28/2012 03:25 AM 3,518,952,341 Install.swm
09/28/2012 03:28 AM 4,061,259,681 Install2.swm
09/28/2012 03:31 AM 4,074,645,712 Install3.swm
09/28/2012 03:32 AM 376,285,138 Install4.swm
09/28/2012 03:14 AM DIR PART0001
4 File(s) 12,031,142,872 bytes

Directory of G:\DELL\Image\PART0001

09/28/2012 03:14 AM DIR .
09/28/2012 03:14 AM DIR ..
09/28/2012 03:14 AM 256,376,654 EFI.wim
1 File(s) 256,376,654 bytes

Directory of G:\Preload

09/28/2012 03:32 AM DIR .
09/28/2012 03:32 AM DIR ..
09/28/2012 03:14 AM 33,458,008 All.crc
09/28/2012 03:14 AM 58 BASE.DAT
09/28/2012 03:25 AM 3,518,952,341 BASE.swm
09/28/2012 03:28 AM 4,061,259,681 BASE2.swm
09/28/2012 03:31 AM 4,074,645,712 BASE3.swm
09/28/2012 03:32 AM 376,285,138 BASE4.swm
09/28/2012 03:14 AM 3,342 CSP.DAT
09/28/2012 03:14 AM 54 Desc.txt
09/28/2012 03:14 AM DIR PART0001
8 File(s) 12,064,604,334 bytes

Directory of G:\Preload\PART0001

09/28/2012 03:14 AM DIR .
09/28/2012 03:14 AM DIR ..
09/28/2012 03:14 AM 256,376,654 BASE.WIM
1 File(s) 256,376,654 bytes

Total Files Listed:
14 File(s) 24,608,500,514 bytes
15 Dir(s) 203,616,256 bytes free

G:\

###################

And yep! 7-Zip opens the .swm and .wim files and confirms that they are a
restore image and related files. Also, CSP.DAT, BASE.DAT, and Desc.txt are
helpful text files.


  #11  
Old February 26th 15, 06:00 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
R.H. Breener[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 112
Default Last Question - System Recovery


"Paul" wrote in message
...
R.H. Breener wrote:
I tried to burn a Recovery disk as per a popup. The DVD made one part
way, and stopped working - the tray opened. The program said to return
the disk to the drive and I did so. That was the end of the DVD drive. I
refused to open even with the Paperclip-in-hole move. I got several
errors so did a System Restore. That didn't help so decided to do a
System Recovery already, just to find MS (or Dell) removed that from W8
as well. There is no onboard image to do a System Recovery from. There
is no Recovery Image on this PC so I decided to return it for something
else or a refund if I can get it.

With no Backup Image - where was it trying to make a Recovery Disk to do
a System Recovery from? I will have to delete all the things on it by
hand now since there is no way to reinstall the OS and restore it to box
condition. Dell will get a free DVD disk in the locked drive.

My question is - why did MS remove the backup image or is that a Dell
decision? I really want to know.

Thanks again for all the help you all have been.


That might have been the prompt to burn a 200MB boot CD.


No, not Boot. It said something about a System Recovery and gave the choice
between the DVD drive (no size disk mentioned) or a Flash (thumb) Drive
w/size mentioned. For the System Recovery I used a Flash drive since the DVD
draw was still locked. I just followed the simple directions and went off
to do something else. When I came back it was finished but still couldn't
see the DVD drive. The drive was still locked.


Note that tablets and laptops are treated differently now.

Tablets come in ARM processor and Intel processor versions.
The Intel processor ones, are the ones to get. The ARM
is a dead end on Windows (uses Secure Boot). The ARM one
is more likely to end up as a door stop.
On tablets now, with Windows 8, they use "WIM Boot"
technique. Instead of conventional "OS installation",
it works similarly to a Linux LiveCD on USB stick. The
initial set of OS files stays inside "install.wim". The
computer boots, and decompresses files from "install.wim"
on the fly. When files are updated, an overlay file system
records the difference on the internal storage device (Flash memory).
This means less Flash memory is wasted, and a 32GB flash chip
is enough to run Windows.

A question for the tablet scenario would be, even if you
backed up the storage device, could you restore to it again ?
I'm guessing you can, but haven't seen any web page with
the details.

The laptop should have a larger storage device. Partitioning
options include MBR and GPT (even for disks less than 2TB
in size now, they use GPT). A laptop with GPT setup (becoming
more common), can have as many as five partitions. If I
owned such a hunk of junk, I'd have to do forensics on the
whole damn thing, to find 12GB worth of backup files. They're
probably in there somewhere.


ZOOOOOOOOOOOOOM... the sound of that going right over my head. :-)

And the user manuals on some of these units (like an MSI
laptop might be a single sheet of paper), you can't expect
uniform documentation quality. Some companies are a bit
better at docs, than others. Most of these docs are
non-technical "happy happy" docs, meant to deceive you
about the nature of what you bought. It's then harder to
get solid info on what lurks underneath (where is my
recovery partition???).

*******

When you go from Win8 to Win8.1, that can break the "Refresh"
and "Reset" features provided by Microsoft (not by Dell). It's
possible they've provided easier ways to fix this, as the
issue didn't seem to be addressed all that well a year
ago.

If you ask the average user here, how they "manage" their
computer, they'll tell you they use a "complete backup",
to get to the heart of the issue.


These so called "complete backups" people have - how the hell do they get
them installed on a crashed PC? I had a Norton complete backup Recovery
disk one time plus a Norton emergency Startup/Boot Disk. They were supposed
to return XP to box condition. Nope! I never could get the backedup
Recovery (OS) installed on the HP PC ... and the disk was made on that PC.
Directions were clear. No tech needed. It was money thrown down the
crapper. The SU disk worked but not the Recovery backup disk. The exact same
thing happened with the backup disks for my Vista desktop. The emergency
boot disk worked (burned from the PC itself) but the "complete backup" disk
did not. Like with XP, all I got was errors. Why wont the backup disks we
make on our PCs actually work and reinstall the OS? The disks that used to
come with PCs did. But the ones you make yourself now from your PC give
errors. A helpful booklet came with PCs too. I would love to get my
hands on a W7 or Vista disk and somehow install in on the next Laptop. I
don't care for the changes I see in W8.

If all the involved
companies are going to be stupid about this stuff,
there's nothing like a complete backup. The only place
I might have questions, is whether I understand the
tablet issues well enough, to have my ass covered.
For example, if you gave me an Android, I wouldn't
look on the backup issue with any enthusiasm, since
there are roadblocks to doing a good job. So tablets
and mobile devices, they make me nervous. With a
laptop or a desktop, I feel a bit more comfortable.
If I received a GPT-based laptop, well, it would
be forensic analysis time... I don't know if my
recovery partition is in there or not. It should be.


I just gave them a quick glance today because they would be of no use to me.



Paul


  #12  
Old February 26th 15, 06:48 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,275
Default Last Question - System Recovery

R.H. Breener wrote:

"Paul" wrote in message



That might have been the prompt to burn a 200MB boot CD.


No, not Boot. It said something about a System Recovery and gave the
choice between the DVD drive (no size disk mentioned) or a Flash (thumb)
Drive w/size mentioned. For the System Recovery I used a Flash drive
since the DVD draw was still locked. I just followed the simple
directions and went off to do something else. When I came back it was
finished but still couldn't see the DVD drive. The drive was still locked.


So maybe you can try booting the Flash drive
when you get a chance. On my Asus motherboards
here, popup boot (when the system starts) is F8.
One other system here, you press F11. Yet
another, you press F2. A rectangular box appears
in the BIOS window, with a list of storage devices,
and the USB flash should be listed. You cursor down
with arrow keys, hit return to select the USB flash,
and then it should attempt to boot off your freshly
prepared USB flash.

A well designed BIOS screen (with the splash logo
disabled so you can see the text underneath), the
BIOS will print the value of Function key to use
to enter the BIOS or to use the BIOS popup boot.

I'd have to do forensics on the
whole damn thing, to find 12GB worth of backup files. They're
probably in there somewhere.


ZOOOOOOOOOOOOOM... the sound of that going right over my head. :-)


Char just looked in his "PBR image" partition and
found three DVD images. So it seems relatively
easy to get that far. See his post of 11:27PM that
has lines like this in it.

09/28/2012 03:25 AM 3,518,952,341 Install.swm \
09/28/2012 03:28 AM 4,061,259,681 Install2.swm \___ 3 DVD to restore C: ?
09/28/2012 03:31 AM 4,074,645,712 Install3.swm /
09/28/2012 03:32 AM 376,285,138 Install4.swm --- driver CD ?

7-ZIP opened them, but I'd probably be doing a few
more checks before changing the file extension and
making a DVD out of each one. I use the Linux "file"
command, and ask it if the swm file is actually
an ISO. As well, programs like "disktype" can
identify the file system inside a single file
(if the swm has an ISO inside it). There are a
few tricks like that I use to double check stuff.


These so called "complete backups" people have - how the hell do they
get them installed on a crashed PC? I had a Norton complete backup
Recovery disk one time plus a Norton emergency Startup/Boot Disk. They
were supposed to return XP to box condition. Nope! I never could get
the backedup Recovery (OS) installed on the HP PC ... and the disk was
made on that PC. Directions were clear. No tech needed. It was money
thrown down the crapper. The SU disk worked but not the Recovery backup
disk. The exact same thing happened with the backup disks for my Vista
desktop. The emergency boot disk worked (burned from the PC itself) but
the "complete backup" disk did not. Like with XP, all I got was
errors. Why wont the backup disks we make on our PCs actually work
and reinstall the OS? The disks that used to come with PCs did. But the
ones you make yourself now from your PC give errors. A helpful booklet
came with PCs too. I would love to get my hands on a W7 or Vista disk
and somehow install in on the next Laptop. I don't care for the changes
I see in W8.


Having needed to restore things here, the two methods I
tested, worked properly (Windows backup/restore, Macrium
backup/restore using CD). I generally like methods,
where the data isn't really locked up. If the restoration
method fails, I want a data format for the image, that
7-ZIP can open or whatever. For example, both Acronis and
Macrium, have File Explorer plugins that allow mounting
their backup images, as if they were disk drives. So
you can see all your files sitting there, and extract
them. By having both a restore option, as well as
a random access option, that softens the blow if
one method doesn't work.

If I make a backup of the laptop with Windows backup,
the hard drive backup method makes VHD files. Those
can be mounted like disk drives to (on WinXP, I just
pop them into Virtual PC 2007 in a virtual machine,
and marvell at the collection of files).

I think even Macrium has a converter, for converting
a .mrimg backup into a .vhd file, for export to the
virtual machine world.

The idea is to slowly collect a "web of capability",
so you can move data from one environment to another.
And never be entirely dead in the water.

Sure, I get burned, but the times I have multiple
options, I can sometimes make a "save" and get
out of trouble.

Paul
  #13  
Old February 26th 15, 07:12 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
R.H. Breener[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 112
Default Last Question - System Recovery


"Paul" wrote in message
...
R.H. Breener wrote:

"Paul" wrote in message



That might have been the prompt to burn a 200MB boot CD.


No, not Boot. It said something about a System Recovery and gave the
choice between the DVD drive (no size disk mentioned) or a Flash (thumb)
Drive w/size mentioned. For the System Recovery I used a Flash drive
since the DVD draw was still locked. I just followed the simple
directions and went off to do something else. When I came back it was
finished but still couldn't see the DVD drive. The drive was still
locked.


So maybe you can try booting the Flash drive
when you get a chance. On my Asus motherboards
here, popup boot (when the system starts) is F8.
One other system here, you press F11. Yet
another, you press F2. A rectangular box appears
in the BIOS window, with a list of storage devices,
and the USB flash should be listed. You cursor down
with arrow keys, hit return to select the USB flash,
and then it should attempt to boot off your freshly
prepared USB flash.


So with the next LT I use a Flashdrive to back up my OS. Then if the PC
crashes.... what? How do I get it booted to even reach the BIOS? I would
have no boot disk. I didn't see a choice to make a Boot Disk, just the
Recovery Disk or Flash. If the thing comes to life and I can reach the BIOS
I can direct it to the Flash drive.


A well designed BIOS screen (with the splash logo
disabled so you can see the text underneath), the
BIOS will print the value of Function key to use
to enter the BIOS or to use the BIOS popup boot.

I'd have to do forensics on the
whole damn thing, to find 12GB worth of backup files. They're
probably in there somewhere.


ZOOOOOOOOOOOOOM... the sound of that going right over my head. :-)


Char just looked in his "PBR image" partition and
found three DVD images. So it seems relatively
easy to get that far. See his post of 11:27PM that
has lines like this in it.

09/28/2012 03:25 AM 3,518,952,341 Install.swm \
09/28/2012 03:28 AM 4,061,259,681 Install2.swm \___ 3 DVD to restore
C: ?
09/28/2012 03:31 AM 4,074,645,712 Install3.swm /
09/28/2012 03:32 AM 376,285,138 Install4.swm --- driver CD ?


My external Seagate is supposed to have a complete backup of my desktop with
W-7 and keep files updated. I have no clue how to use that Backup if W7
crashes. I may find that info online.



7-ZIP opened them, but I'd probably be doing a few
more checks before changing the file extension and
making a DVD out of each one. I use the Linux "file"
command, and ask it if the swm file is actually
an ISO. As well, programs like "disktype" can
identify the file system inside a single file
(if the swm has an ISO inside it). There are a
few tricks like that I use to double check stuff.


These so called "complete backups" people have - how the hell do they get
them installed on a crashed PC? I had a Norton complete backup Recovery
disk one time plus a Norton emergency Startup/Boot Disk. They were
supposed to return XP to box condition. Nope! I never could get the
backedup Recovery (OS) installed on the HP PC ... and the disk was made
on that PC. Directions were clear. No tech needed. It was money thrown
down the crapper. The SU disk worked but not the Recovery backup disk.
The exact same thing happened with the backup disks for my Vista desktop.
The emergency boot disk worked (burned from the PC itself) but the
"complete backup" disk did not. Like with XP, all I got was errors.
Why wont the backup disks we make on our PCs actually work and reinstall
the OS? The disks that used to come with PCs did. But the ones you make
yourself now from your PC give errors. A helpful booklet came with PCs
too. I would love to get my hands on a W7 or Vista disk and somehow
install in on the next Laptop. I don't care for the changes I see in W8.


Having needed to restore things here, the two methods I
tested, worked properly (Windows backup/restore, Macrium
backup/restore using CD). I generally like methods,
where the data isn't really locked up. If the restoration
method fails, I want a data format for the image, that
7-ZIP can open or whatever. For example, both Acronis and
Macrium, have File Explorer plugins that allow mounting
their backup images, as if they were disk drives. So
you can see all your files sitting there, and extract
them. By having both a restore option, as well as
a random access option, that softens the blow if
one method doesn't work.


So how does that restore your PCs OS back on the PC so the PC runs again?



If I make a backup of the laptop with Windows backup,
the hard drive backup method makes VHD files. Those
can be mounted like disk drives to (on WinXP, I just
pop them into Virtual PC 2007 in a virtual machine,
and marvell at the collection of files).


So you use Window's backup to make OS Recovery Disks for your PC? Or are you
taking about your personal files?



I think even Macrium has a converter, for converting
a .mrimg backup into a .vhd file, for export to the
virtual machine world.

The idea is to slowly collect a "web of capability",
so you can move data from one environment to another.
And never be entirely dead in the water.

Sure, I get burned, but the times I have multiple
options, I can sometimes make a "save" and get
out of trouble.


And this restores your OS?


Paul


  #14  
Old February 27th 15, 03:29 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Gene E. Bloch[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,485
Default Last Question - System Recovery

On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 01:12:34 -0500, R.H. Breener wrote:

So with the next LT I use a Flashdrive to back up my OS. Then if the PC
crashes.... what? How do I get it booted to even reach the BIOS? I would
have no boot disk. I didn't see a choice to make a Boot Disk, just the
Recovery Disk or Flash. If the thing comes to life and I can reach the BIOS
I can direct it to the Flash drive.


The BIOS has nothing to do with booting from a hard drive. The BIOS is
the motherboard's ROM with *firmware* that figures out which drives are
present & executes what's available on the chosen drive (usually a boot
sector sort of thing).

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)
  #15  
Old February 27th 15, 08:13 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,275
Default Last Question - System Recovery

Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Thu, 26 Feb 2015 01:12:34 -0500, R.H. Breener wrote:

So with the next LT I use a Flashdrive to back up my OS. Then if the PC
crashes.... what? How do I get it booted to even reach the BIOS? I would
have no boot disk. I didn't see a choice to make a Boot Disk, just the
Recovery Disk or Flash. If the thing comes to life and I can reach the BIOS
I can direct it to the Flash drive.


The BIOS has nothing to do with booting from a hard drive. The BIOS is
the motherboard's ROM with *firmware* that figures out which drives are
present & executes what's available on the chosen drive (usually a boot
sector sort of thing).


And another data point - you can unplug all the storage
devices, all the hard drives, all the CD/DVD burners...
and the BIOS screen will still come up. You can
still enter the "BIOS Setup" screen. The BIOS
code is stored in an EEPROM on the motherboard.

Only a Compaq from around 18-20 years ago, kept
the BIOS on an actual storage device (a disaster
waiting to happen). We've made progress since then.

Generally, with backup software, you will be prompted
at some point, to make a "boot CD". In Windows, that
would be that 200MB recovery CD we've been talking
about. If you buy a copy of Acronis TIH or set up
Macrium, they also have boot CDs. The boot CD is
necessary for the developers to claim "bare metal
restore". Meaning even if you have a brand-new
empty hard drive, the boot CD you make, is all that
is necessary to transfer the backup from your
external drive, to the new hard drive installed
inside the computer. If you don't have a boot
CD, it's pretty hard to guarantee to a user, that
"bare metal restore" is possible. That's why we
collect these CD and keep them in an easy to tip
over pile in the computer room.

And the main advantage of boot CDs over flash drives,
is a user may be tempted to add files to the flash drive,
and generally run risks of trashing it. If you burn a
CD-R with something important like a boot CD image
on it, it's a bit more difficult to erase it by accident.

Paul
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off






All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 PCbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.