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#1
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Sata cabling
I have had a disk connection problem which seems to relate to failing sata
cables. The BIOS has failed intermittently to detect one or both hard drives. The problem was more obvious with the master drive so I replaced the cable 14 days ago and there was no further problem until this morning. The problem this morning was the slave drive so I have replaced the cable for that drive. It has now been working for a bit over two hour. The problem first became apparent a month ago when I found the system would freeze after it had been running some time. Resetting sometimes worked and sometimes resulted in a failed boot. Eventually the system would boot but the problem would happen again some hours later or the next day. Sometimes there have been Event Viewer reports -mainly ID: 11 referring to the Controller. Often the problem is unreported. This is probably because the Error is occurring before Event Viewer starts. From a friend I got these comments. "In my view, the SATA 'Connector' is an engineering blunder. A sort-of flat sleeve slides over a notched part on the edge of the board whereupon sit some exposed/un-insulated traces. Flat conductors encased within a plastic bit are slid into contact with them. There is no mechanism but friction to keep the 'connector' in place. Entirely inadequate. It is not designed for repeated make/break insertion/removal. If subjected even to a low number of such operations (design spec is 50), it will fail. (5 000 for an eSATA connector). If I have to repeatedly disconnect-connect a drive during testing, I replace the cable as a matter of routine." I am interested in knowing whether others have encountered this problem and how common place it is? TIA -- Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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#2
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Sata cabling
"Gerry" wrote in message ... I have had a disk connection problem which seems to relate to failing sata cables. The BIOS has failed intermittently to detect one or both hard drives. The problem was more obvious with the master drive so I replaced the cable 14 days ago and there was no further problem until this morning. The problem this morning was the slave drive so I have replaced the cable for that drive. It has now been working for a bit over two hour. The problem first became apparent a month ago when I found the system would freeze after it had been running some time. Resetting sometimes worked and sometimes resulted in a failed boot. Eventually the system would boot but the problem would happen again some hours later or the next day. Sometimes there have been Event Viewer reports -mainly ID: 11 referring to the Controller. Often the problem is unreported. This is probably because the Error is occurring before Event Viewer starts. From a friend I got these comments. "In my view, the SATA 'Connector' is an engineering blunder. A sort-of flat sleeve slides over a notched part on the edge of the board whereupon sit some exposed/un-insulated traces. Flat conductors encased within a plastic bit are slid into contact with them. There is no mechanism but friction to keep the 'connector' in place. Entirely inadequate. It is not designed for repeated make/break insertion/removal. If subjected even to a low number of such operations (design spec is 50), it will fail. (5 000 for an eSATA connector). If I have to repeatedly disconnect-connect a drive during testing, I replace the cable as a matter of routine." I am interested in knowing whether others have encountered this problem and how common place it is? TIA -- Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gerry: Understanding that the following comments reflect only my experience working with a fairly large number & variety of SATA HDDs and associated components over the past half-dozen years or so... Along with many computer technicians I've been associated with, virtually all of us have been dismayed with the design of SATA connectors in terms of providing a secure connection between the SATA signal cable's connector and the motherboard's SATA connectors and components with the SATA interface. However, our problems have basically centered about installing, changing, modifying PC components on a daily basis and the annoyance we frequently encounter when the usual type of SATA connector is too-easily disconnected from its component when it is even slightly jostled. It just doesn't seem the connection is as secure as it should be. (We also haven't been thrilled with the design orientation of the SATA connector in terms of instantly recognizing which way it should be plugged into a connector/port. Would have preferred a design similar to a Molex plug or some such.) Because of this we prefer to use SATA cables having a locking latch or clip as an integral part of the connector. By & large, it makes for a securer connection in our experience. Also, the use of a right-angle SATA connector helps at times. However because of the design/placement of some components' SATA connector(s) these types of SATA cables are not always available to use. Needless to say those of us who work on a daily basis with building, maintaining, repairing PCs were delighted to see the demise of IDE data (ribbon) cables and their ilk. Very few, if any of us would want to go back to those types of cables. But having said all this there really shouldn't be a problem with the average PC user insofar as problem connections with SATA cables/devices. For the overwhelming number of users once the connections are made that's probably the last time they will be manipulated. As far as your friend's comments go - we certainly agree with him/her re the basic connection situation as I have indicated in my above comments. But while we've connected/disconnected a SATA signal cable multiple times in this or that system I really can't say I've experienced any problem in that the cable/connector became defective as a result of these multiple connects/disconnects. Of course these "multiple" times (again, in my experience) would be not much more than in the order of a dozen or so instances in most cases. Again, for the average PC user I don't think this latter situation would be a problem of any consequence. One would assume that the average PC user would be making many more connects/disconnects when using an eSATA cable with some external device. And as your friend insinuates, the eSATA connector seems to result in a more secure connection than the SATA connector. BTW, as you and others may know, the SATA-III data interface is under development and there has been some talk about redesigning the SATA connector to achieve a more secure connection. But since the SATA-III data interface will most likely have to be backwards compatible with present SATA connectors it's hard to see how they will manage that. In terms of defective SATA signal cables we have experienced very few problems in that area other than when the cable's connector (or cable itself) has obviously been physically damaged or the cable is DOA. Certainly the amount of defective SATA cables I've come across is far, far less than the IDE ribbon cable types. Obviously I don't know (or can even guess) whether a defective SATA cable or SATA connector caused the problem(s) you've experienced. In my own experience when I encountered a problem with a defective SATA cable/connector (rare as it might be), the problem immediately surfaced - it did not result in an intermittent problem. But I guess it's entirely possible. Anna |
#3
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Sata cabling
Gerry wrote:
I have had a disk connection problem which seems to relate to failing sata cables. The BIOS has failed intermittently to detect one or both hard drives. The problem was more obvious with the master drive so I replaced the cable 14 days ago and there was no further problem until this morning. The problem this morning was the slave drive so I have replaced the cable for that drive. It has now been working for a bit over two hour. The problem first became apparent a month ago when I found the system would freeze after it had been running some time. Resetting sometimes worked and sometimes resulted in a failed boot. Eventually the system would boot but the problem would happen again some hours later or the next day. Sometimes there have been Event Viewer reports -mainly ID: 11 referring to the Controller. Often the problem is unreported. This is probably because the Error is occurring before Event Viewer starts. From a friend I got these comments. "In my view, the SATA 'Connector' is an engineering blunder. A sort-of flat sleeve slides over a notched part on the edge of the board whereupon sit some exposed/un-insulated traces. Flat conductors encased within a plastic bit are slid into contact with them. There is no mechanism but friction to keep the 'connector' in place. Entirely inadequate. It is not designed for repeated make/break insertion/removal. If subjected even to a low number of such operations (design spec is 50), it will fail. (5 000 for an eSATA connector). If I have to repeatedly disconnect-connect a drive during testing, I replace the cable as a matter of routine." I am interested in knowing whether others have encountered this problem and how common place it is? TIA The SATA connector design was centered around "server backplane" applications, making it easy to "plug" a drive into a backplane, for a cable free installation. The usage of the connectors for desktops, was an afterthought. (The SATA committee has done a few things, showing a lack of judgment, like their naming conventions.) In a backplane application, the drive goes "straight down" onto the connector, avoiding wiggling and breaking of the wafer. Mechanical guidance of the drive insertion, helps prevent problems. Motherboard/desktop applications, on the other hand, have less protection from that (depending on the connector brand). I've even heard of some users, managing to pull the connector right off the motherboard (Asrock). The initial connector design had no positive retention features. Later connectors fixed that. (But for the locking latch type, both the motherboard connector and the cable must be compatible. A locking latch cable with a non locking motherboard, won't help.) My current computer uses no locking latch, but they did manage to incorporate retention into the design. The cable won't fall off if I wiggle it. It has a moderate insertion force to install it (spring loaded dimple ?). SATA connectors incorporate keying, in the form of the L shaped plastic. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Data_Cable.jpg Western Digital SecureConnect, was something that shipped before cables had lock latches. They used mechanical features present on their brand of hard drive, to guide the connector into the drive. So that solves the problem at the hard drive end. Notice that at this point in time, the drive was still using "Molex" power. AFAIK, other drive brands would not have the square holes, to fit this cable. The square holes help guide the connector during insertion. http://www.wdc.com/en/library/sata/2579-001075.pdf All of this means, people will have seen a variety of user experiences. All the way from "no problems here", to "my cable keeps falling off, so I glued it on" :-) Paul |
#4
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Sata cabling
Not crazy over the SATA connectors either.
SATA or Serial ATA has another design flaw in that by nature serial data transfers can never be as fast as parallel. -- JS http://www.pagestart.com "Gerry" wrote in message ... I have had a disk connection problem which seems to relate to failing sata cables. The BIOS has failed intermittently to detect one or both hard drives. The problem was more obvious with the master drive so I replaced the cable 14 days ago and there was no further problem until this morning. The problem this morning was the slave drive so I have replaced the cable for that drive. It has now been working for a bit over two hour. The problem first became apparent a month ago when I found the system would freeze after it had been running some time. Resetting sometimes worked and sometimes resulted in a failed boot. Eventually the system would boot but the problem would happen again some hours later or the next day. Sometimes there have been Event Viewer reports -mainly ID: 11 referring to the Controller. Often the problem is unreported. This is probably because the Error is occurring before Event Viewer starts. From a friend I got these comments. "In my view, the SATA 'Connector' is an engineering blunder. A sort-of flat sleeve slides over a notched part on the edge of the board whereupon sit some exposed/un-insulated traces. Flat conductors encased within a plastic bit are slid into contact with them. There is no mechanism but friction to keep the 'connector' in place. Entirely inadequate. It is not designed for repeated make/break insertion/removal. If subjected even to a low number of such operations (design spec is 50), it will fail. (5 000 for an eSATA connector). If I have to repeatedly disconnect-connect a drive during testing, I replace the cable as a matter of routine." I am interested in knowing whether others have encountered this problem and how common place it is? TIA -- Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
#5
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Sata cabling
Thanks Anna for your detailed response.
The sata cables could be 3 / 4 years old. I can't say how many times I have removed and reconnected but it has not been a frequent occurrence. To me there is no obvious sign of damage. -- Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Anna" wrote in message ... "Gerry" wrote in message ... I have had a disk connection problem which seems to relate to failing sata cables. The BIOS has failed intermittently to detect one or both hard drives. The problem was more obvious with the master drive so I replaced the cable 14 days ago and there was no further problem until this morning. The problem this morning was the slave drive so I have replaced the cable for that drive. It has now been working for a bit over two hour. The problem first became apparent a month ago when I found the system would freeze after it had been running some time. Resetting sometimes worked and sometimes resulted in a failed boot. Eventually the system would boot but the problem would happen again some hours later or the next day. Sometimes there have been Event Viewer reports -mainly ID: 11 referring to the Controller. Often the problem is unreported. This is probably because the Error is occurring before Event Viewer starts. From a friend I got these comments. "In my view, the SATA 'Connector' is an engineering blunder. A sort-of flat sleeve slides over a notched part on the edge of the board whereupon sit some exposed/un-insulated traces. Flat conductors encased within a plastic bit are slid into contact with them. There is no mechanism but friction to keep the 'connector' in place. Entirely inadequate. It is not designed for repeated make/break insertion/removal. If subjected even to a low number of such operations (design spec is 50), it will fail. (5 000 for an eSATA connector). If I have to repeatedly disconnect-connect a drive during testing, I replace the cable as a matter of routine." I am interested in knowing whether others have encountered this problem and how common place it is? TIA -- Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gerry: Understanding that the following comments reflect only my experience working with a fairly large number & variety of SATA HDDs and associated components over the past half-dozen years or so... Along with many computer technicians I've been associated with, virtually all of us have been dismayed with the design of SATA connectors in terms of providing a secure connection between the SATA signal cable's connector and the motherboard's SATA connectors and components with the SATA interface. However, our problems have basically centered about installing, changing, modifying PC components on a daily basis and the annoyance we frequently encounter when the usual type of SATA connector is too-easily disconnected from its component when it is even slightly jostled. It just doesn't seem the connection is as secure as it should be. (We also haven't been thrilled with the design orientation of the SATA connector in terms of instantly recognizing which way it should be plugged into a connector/port. Would have preferred a design similar to a Molex plug or some such.) Because of this we prefer to use SATA cables having a locking latch or clip as an integral part of the connector. By & large, it makes for a securer connection in our experience. Also, the use of a right-angle SATA connector helps at times. However because of the design/placement of some components' SATA connector(s) these types of SATA cables are not always available to use. Needless to say those of us who work on a daily basis with building, maintaining, repairing PCs were delighted to see the demise of IDE data (ribbon) cables and their ilk. Very few, if any of us would want to go back to those types of cables. But having said all this there really shouldn't be a problem with the average PC user insofar as problem connections with SATA cables/devices. For the overwhelming number of users once the connections are made that's probably the last time they will be manipulated. As far as your friend's comments go - we certainly agree with him/her re the basic connection situation as I have indicated in my above comments. But while we've connected/disconnected a SATA signal cable multiple times in this or that system I really can't say I've experienced any problem in that the cable/connector became defective as a result of these multiple connects/disconnects. Of course these "multiple" times (again, in my experience) would be not much more than in the order of a dozen or so instances in most cases. Again, for the average PC user I don't think this latter situation would be a problem of any consequence. One would assume that the average PC user would be making many more connects/disconnects when using an eSATA cable with some external device. And as your friend insinuates, the eSATA connector seems to result in a more secure connection than the SATA connector. BTW, as you and others may know, the SATA-III data interface is under development and there has been some talk about redesigning the SATA connector to achieve a more secure connection. But since the SATA-III data interface will most likely have to be backwards compatible with present SATA connectors it's hard to see how they will manage that. In terms of defective SATA signal cables we have experienced very few problems in that area other than when the cable's connector (or cable itself) has obviously been physically damaged or the cable is DOA. Certainly the amount of defective SATA cables I've come across is far, far less than the IDE ribbon cable types. Obviously I don't know (or can even guess) whether a defective SATA cable or SATA connector caused the problem(s) you've experienced. In my own experience when I encountered a problem with a defective SATA cable/connector (rare as it might be), the problem immediately surfaced - it did not result in an intermittent problem. But I guess it's entirely possible. Anna |
#6
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Sata cabling
JS wrote:
Not crazy over the SATA connectors either. SATA or Serial ATA has another design flaw in that by nature serial data transfers can never be as fast as parallel. So that is why SATA2 burst, at over 200MB/sec, isn't as fast as a burst across Ultra133 at 133MB/sec :-) ? The article here, shows some *sustained* read rates above 200MB/sec via SATA2, using recent SSD products. Hard drives can burst like that, but they can't sustain a transfer rate like that. At least not currently. Velociraptor can only sustain 120MB/sec on its SATA2 interface (from early benchmarks). And that is why, for hard drives as the target of these technologies, SATA2 is a bit silly. But for other devices like SSDs, SATA2 or faster might be a welcome addition. http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/16255/10 The next version of SATA is coming out soon, at 6Gbit/sec serial rate. So the rate could potentially double again (236MB/sec from that chart in Techreport, could become 472MB/sec with a little work.) It'll be interesting to see how smooth this introduction of "SATA3" goes... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sata One purpose for a faster SATA link, is for port multipliers. A box like the following one, connects five SATA drives to one SATA cable. If this box was redesigned for SATA3 cable rates, then reading from all hard disks simultaneously becomes more practical. But for an individual hard drive, the SATA3 cable won't be of much additional benefit. We'll have to wait a while, to see if Intel makes a SATA3 capable SSD. http://www.sataport.com/ Paul |
#7
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Sata cabling
Paul
The computer is a desktop with a Gigabyte 915/910 Series motherboard. The two drives are a Seagate and a Maxtor. The cable connectors do not match any illustrated in your links. Both ends are identical and push vertically down onto the motherboard. On one side of each end of the cable is a spring loaded metal plate but I would not say it locks. The cable stays in place. -- Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Paul wrote: Gerry wrote: I have had a disk connection problem which seems to relate to failing sata cables. The BIOS has failed intermittently to detect one or both hard drives. The problem was more obvious with the master drive so I replaced the cable 14 days ago and there was no further problem until this morning. The problem this morning was the slave drive so I have replaced the cable for that drive. It has now been working for a bit over two hour. The problem first became apparent a month ago when I found the system would freeze after it had been running some time. Resetting sometimes worked and sometimes resulted in a failed boot. Eventually the system would boot but the problem would happen again some hours later or the next day. Sometimes there have been Event Viewer reports -mainly ID: 11 referring to the Controller. Often the problem is unreported. This is probably because the Error is occurring before Event Viewer starts. From a friend I got these comments. "In my view, the SATA 'Connector' is an engineering blunder. A sort-of flat sleeve slides over a notched part on the edge of the board whereupon sit some exposed/un-insulated traces. Flat conductors encased within a plastic bit are slid into contact with them. There is no mechanism but friction to keep the 'connector' in place. Entirely inadequate. It is not designed for repeated make/break insertion/removal. If subjected even to a low number of such operations (design spec is 50), it will fail. (5 000 for an eSATA connector). If I have to repeatedly disconnect-connect a drive during testing, I replace the cable as a matter of routine." I am interested in knowing whether others have encountered this problem and how common place it is? TIA The SATA connector design was centered around "server backplane" applications, making it easy to "plug" a drive into a backplane, for a cable free installation. The usage of the connectors for desktops, was an afterthought. (The SATA committee has done a few things, showing a lack of judgment, like their naming conventions.) In a backplane application, the drive goes "straight down" onto the connector, avoiding wiggling and breaking of the wafer. Mechanical guidance of the drive insertion, helps prevent problems. Motherboard/desktop applications, on the other hand, have less protection from that (depending on the connector brand). I've even heard of some users, managing to pull the connector right off the motherboard (Asrock). The initial connector design had no positive retention features. Later connectors fixed that. (But for the locking latch type, both the motherboard connector and the cable must be compatible. A locking latch cable with a non locking motherboard, won't help.) My current computer uses no locking latch, but they did manage to incorporate retention into the design. The cable won't fall off if I wiggle it. It has a moderate insertion force to install it (spring loaded dimple ?). SATA connectors incorporate keying, in the form of the L shaped plastic. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Data_Cable.jpg Western Digital SecureConnect, was something that shipped before cables had lock latches. They used mechanical features present on their brand of hard drive, to guide the connector into the drive. So that solves the problem at the hard drive end. Notice that at this point in time, the drive was still using "Molex" power. AFAIK, other drive brands would not have the square holes, to fit this cable. The square holes help guide the connector during insertion. http://www.wdc.com/en/library/sata/2579-001075.pdf All of this means, people will have seen a variety of user experiences. All the way from "no problems here", to "my cable keeps falling off, so I glued it on" :-) Paul |
#8
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Sata cabling
JS
Interesting. Statistically how do data transfer rates compare? -- Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JS wrote: Not crazy over the SATA connectors either. SATA or Serial ATA has another design flaw in that by nature serial data transfers can never be as fast as parallel. "Gerry" wrote in message ... I have had a disk connection problem which seems to relate to failing sata cables. The BIOS has failed intermittently to detect one or both hard drives. The problem was more obvious with the master drive so I replaced the cable 14 days ago and there was no further problem until this morning. The problem this morning was the slave drive so I have replaced the cable for that drive. It has now been working for a bit over two hour. The problem first became apparent a month ago when I found the system would freeze after it had been running some time. Resetting sometimes worked and sometimes resulted in a failed boot. Eventually the system would boot but the problem would happen again some hours later or the next day. Sometimes there have been Event Viewer reports -mainly ID: 11 referring to the Controller. Often the problem is unreported. This is probably because the Error is occurring before Event Viewer starts. From a friend I got these comments. "In my view, the SATA 'Connector' is an engineering blunder. A sort-of flat sleeve slides over a notched part on the edge of the board whereupon sit some exposed/un-insulated traces. Flat conductors encased within a plastic bit are slid into contact with them. There is no mechanism but friction to keep the 'connector' in place. Entirely inadequate. It is not designed for repeated make/break insertion/removal. If subjected even to a low number of such operations (design spec is 50), it will fail. (5 000 for an eSATA connector). If I have to repeatedly disconnect-connect a drive during testing, I replace the cable as a matter of routine." I am interested in knowing whether others have encountered this problem and how common place it is? TIA -- Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
#9
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Sata cabling
Well, in a crude sense think of SATA
as a two lane highway compared to PATA as an 8 lane highway. If the PATA cable design was updated to handle higher transfer rates I would think that PATA could be at least 4x faster than SATA. And an updated PATA cable need not be a giant size ribbon cable either. Just imagine if your ram memory was serial access instead of DDR2 or DDR3. -- JS http://www.pagestart.com "Gerry" wrote in message ... JS Interesting. Statistically how do data transfer rates compare? -- Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JS wrote: Not crazy over the SATA connectors either. SATA or Serial ATA has another design flaw in that by nature serial data transfers can never be as fast as parallel. "Gerry" wrote in message ... I have had a disk connection problem which seems to relate to failing sata cables. The BIOS has failed intermittently to detect one or both hard drives. The problem was more obvious with the master drive so I replaced the cable 14 days ago and there was no further problem until this morning. The problem this morning was the slave drive so I have replaced the cable for that drive. It has now been working for a bit over two hour. The problem first became apparent a month ago when I found the system would freeze after it had been running some time. Resetting sometimes worked and sometimes resulted in a failed boot. Eventually the system would boot but the problem would happen again some hours later or the next day. Sometimes there have been Event Viewer reports -mainly ID: 11 referring to the Controller. Often the problem is unreported. This is probably because the Error is occurring before Event Viewer starts. From a friend I got these comments. "In my view, the SATA 'Connector' is an engineering blunder. A sort-of flat sleeve slides over a notched part on the edge of the board whereupon sit some exposed/un-insulated traces. Flat conductors encased within a plastic bit are slid into contact with them. There is no mechanism but friction to keep the 'connector' in place. Entirely inadequate. It is not designed for repeated make/break insertion/removal. If subjected even to a low number of such operations (design spec is 50), it will fail. (5 000 for an eSATA connector). If I have to repeatedly disconnect-connect a drive during testing, I replace the cable as a matter of routine." I am interested in knowing whether others have encountered this problem and how common place it is? TIA -- Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
#10
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Sata cabling
On the surface, that makes sense - but only on the surface. Let me explain:
In practice, it's a false assumption due to the inherent crosstalk problems between adjacent signal carrying conductors in the Parallel ATA cable. And THAT limits the max transfer rate. OTOH, Serial cables do NOT have that problem, since only a single line is carrying the data. Hence, serial cables (like in SATA) can be, and are, much faster. JS wrote: Not crazy over the SATA connectors either. SATA or Serial ATA has another design flaw in that by nature serial data transfers can never be as fast as parallel. -- JS http://www.pagestart.com "Gerry" wrote in message ... I have had a disk connection problem which seems to relate to failing sata cables. The BIOS has failed intermittently to detect one or both hard drives. The problem was more obvious with the master drive so I replaced the cable 14 days ago and there was no further problem until this morning. The problem this morning was the slave drive so I have replaced the cable for that drive. It has now been working for a bit over two hour. The problem first became apparent a month ago when I found the system would freeze after it had been running some time. Resetting sometimes worked and sometimes resulted in a failed boot. Eventually the system would boot but the problem would happen again some hours later or the next day. Sometimes there have been Event Viewer reports -mainly ID: 11 referring to the Controller. Often the problem is unreported. This is probably because the Error is occurring before Event Viewer starts. From a friend I got these comments. "In my view, the SATA 'Connector' is an engineering blunder. A sort-of flat sleeve slides over a notched part on the edge of the board whereupon sit some exposed/un-insulated traces. Flat conductors encased within a plastic bit are slid into contact with them. There is no mechanism but friction to keep the 'connector' in place. Entirely inadequate. It is not designed for repeated make/break insertion/removal. If subjected even to a low number of such operations (design spec is 50), it will fail. (5 000 for an eSATA connector). If I have to repeatedly disconnect-connect a drive during testing, I replace the cable as a matter of routine." I am interested in knowing whether others have encountered this problem and how common place it is? TIA -- Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
#11
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Sata cabling
JS
If pata is faster than sata why has sata replaced pata? BTW I have Sata II -- Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "JS" @ wrote in message ... Well, in a crude sense think of SATA as a two lane highway compared to PATA as an 8 lane highway. If the PATA cable design was updated to handle higher transfer rates I would think that PATA could be at least 4x faster than SATA. And an updated PATA cable need not be a giant size ribbon cable either. Just imagine if your ram memory was serial access instead of DDR2 or DDR3. -- JS http://www.pagestart.com "Gerry" wrote in message ... JS Interesting. Statistically how do data transfer rates compare? -- Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JS wrote: Not crazy over the SATA connectors either. SATA or Serial ATA has another design flaw in that by nature serial data transfers can never be as fast as parallel. "Gerry" wrote in message ... I have had a disk connection problem which seems to relate to failing sata cables. The BIOS has failed intermittently to detect one or both hard drives. The problem was more obvious with the master drive so I replaced the cable 14 days ago and there was no further problem until this morning. The problem this morning was the slave drive so I have replaced the cable for that drive. It has now been working for a bit over two hour. The problem first became apparent a month ago when I found the system would freeze after it had been running some time. Resetting sometimes worked and sometimes resulted in a failed boot. Eventually the system would boot but the problem would happen again some hours later or the next day. Sometimes there have been Event Viewer reports -mainly ID: 11 referring to the Controller. Often the problem is unreported. This is probably because the Error is occurring before Event Viewer starts. From a friend I got these comments. "In my view, the SATA 'Connector' is an engineering blunder. A sort-of flat sleeve slides over a notched part on the edge of the board whereupon sit some exposed/un-insulated traces. Flat conductors encased within a plastic bit are slid into contact with them. There is no mechanism but friction to keep the 'connector' in place. Entirely inadequate. It is not designed for repeated make/break insertion/removal. If subjected even to a low number of such operations (design spec is 50), it will fail. (5 000 for an eSATA connector). If I have to repeatedly disconnect-connect a drive during testing, I replace the cable as a matter of routine." I am interested in knowing whether others have encountered this problem and how common place it is? TIA -- Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
#12
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Sata cabling
A cable redesign could eliminate
the crosstalk. -- JS http://www.pagestart.com "Bill in Co." wrote in message ... On the surface, that makes sense - but only on the surface. Let me explain: In practice, it's a false assumption due to the inherent crosstalk problems between adjacent signal carrying conductors in the Parallel ATA cable. And THAT limits the max transfer rate. OTOH, Serial cables do NOT have that problem, since only a single line is carrying the data. Hence, serial cables (like in SATA) can be, and are, much faster. JS wrote: Not crazy over the SATA connectors either. SATA or Serial ATA has another design flaw in that by nature serial data transfers can never be as fast as parallel. -- JS http://www.pagestart.com "Gerry" wrote in message ... I have had a disk connection problem which seems to relate to failing sata cables. The BIOS has failed intermittently to detect one or both hard drives. The problem was more obvious with the master drive so I replaced the cable 14 days ago and there was no further problem until this morning. The problem this morning was the slave drive so I have replaced the cable for that drive. It has now been working for a bit over two hour. The problem first became apparent a month ago when I found the system would freeze after it had been running some time. Resetting sometimes worked and sometimes resulted in a failed boot. Eventually the system would boot but the problem would happen again some hours later or the next day. Sometimes there have been Event Viewer reports -mainly ID: 11 referring to the Controller. Often the problem is unreported. This is probably because the Error is occurring before Event Viewer starts. From a friend I got these comments. "In my view, the SATA 'Connector' is an engineering blunder. A sort-of flat sleeve slides over a notched part on the edge of the board whereupon sit some exposed/un-insulated traces. Flat conductors encased within a plastic bit are slid into contact with them. There is no mechanism but friction to keep the 'connector' in place. Entirely inadequate. It is not designed for repeated make/break insertion/removal. If subjected even to a low number of such operations (design spec is 50), it will fail. (5 000 for an eSATA connector). If I have to repeatedly disconnect-connect a drive during testing, I replace the cable as a matter of routine." I am interested in knowing whether others have encountered this problem and how common place it is? TIA -- Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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Sata cabling
They already tried that with the 80 conductor fast ATA cables. While it
helped out a lot, it sure couldn't even come close to SATA. Now, if you want a 40 or 80 conductor parallel cable that's a meter wide, with very wide separation between all the signal carrying conductors (of which there are a LOT, for parallel)..... perhaps that might work. :-) Bottom line: it's not at all practical. JS wrote: A cable redesign could eliminate the crosstalk. -- JS http://www.pagestart.com "Bill in Co." wrote in message ... On the surface, that makes sense - but only on the surface. Let me explain: In practice, it's a false assumption due to the inherent crosstalk problems between adjacent signal carrying conductors in the Parallel ATA cable. And THAT limits the max transfer rate. OTOH, Serial cables do NOT have that problem, since only a single line is carrying the data. Hence, serial cables (like in SATA) can be, and are, much faster. JS wrote: Not crazy over the SATA connectors either. SATA or Serial ATA has another design flaw in that by nature serial data transfers can never be as fast as parallel. -- JS http://www.pagestart.com "Gerry" wrote in message ... I have had a disk connection problem which seems to relate to failing sata cables. The BIOS has failed intermittently to detect one or both hard drives. The problem was more obvious with the master drive so I replaced the cable 14 days ago and there was no further problem until this morning. The problem this morning was the slave drive so I have replaced the cable for that drive. It has now been working for a bit over two hour. The problem first became apparent a month ago when I found the system would freeze after it had been running some time. Resetting sometimes worked and sometimes resulted in a failed boot. Eventually the system would boot but the problem would happen again some hours later or the next day. Sometimes there have been Event Viewer reports -mainly ID: 11 referring to the Controller. Often the problem is unreported. This is probably because the Error is occurring before Event Viewer starts. From a friend I got these comments. "In my view, the SATA 'Connector' is an engineering blunder. A sort-of flat sleeve slides over a notched part on the edge of the board whereupon sit some exposed/un-insulated traces. Flat conductors encased within a plastic bit are slid into contact with them. There is no mechanism but friction to keep the 'connector' in place. Entirely inadequate. It is not designed for repeated make/break insertion/removal. If subjected even to a low number of such operations (design spec is 50), it will fail. (5 000 for an eSATA connector). If I have to repeatedly disconnect-connect a drive during testing, I replace the cable as a matter of routine." I am interested in knowing whether others have encountered this problem and how common place it is? TIA -- Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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Sata cabling
Gerry wrote:
Paul The computer is a desktop with a Gigabyte 915/910 Series motherboard. The two drives are a Seagate and a Maxtor. The cable connectors do not match any illustrated in your links. Both ends are identical and push vertically down onto the motherboard. On one side of each end of the cable is a spring loaded metal plate but I would not say it locks. The cable stays in place. The connectors on this example, don't seem to have a shroud around the body. Just the wafer and some guides. My motherboard has ones like this. My cables are the part that are providing the retention, as the connector on the motherboard is not helping. http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/FileList/...raphic_big.jpg This is a closeup. This one doesn't support a lock latch, or at least, doesn't look like the one I have in mind. http://www.coolgear.com/images/CD011C00A.jpg This connector has a shroud around the outside, and that is where you'd put a feature to support latching. This still isn't the one I saw before. http://www.coolgear.com/images/CD011D03A.jpg This one claims to support a latch. Maybe inside somewhere. Not sure. http://www.satagear.com/CD011D05A_SATA_Connector.html I'm convinced, if it wasn't for the poorly engineered first attempt at a connector, there wouldn't be so many flavors of connectors out there. There is no way to know, when you buy a motherboard, what you'll get. I've even seen motherboards, where connector types are mixed, some with the shroud, and some without. They use it to distinguish Southbridge ports, from the ports connected to a separate RAID controller (they're not sprinkled randomly). And this connector comes with a fastener, to avoid the embarrassment of one of your customers, ripping the connector right out of the motherboard, when removing a cable :-) A good idea. http://www.coolgear.com/images/CD011D04A.jpg I've seen at least one connector with a shroud, where there is a rectangular hole in the shroud, where the lock latch grips onto. I cannot find a picture of it right now. There is a nice collection of pictures here as well. http://cooldrives.stores.yahoo.net/saiandsaiiin.html Paul |
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Sata cabling
Yes I know about 40 vs 80 design,
what I'm talking about is a total redesign. And they do have round PATA cables, not rated any faster but they are not wide and flat. -- JS http://www.pagestart.com "Bill in Co." wrote in message ... They already tried that with the 80 conductor fast ATA cables. While it helped out a lot, it sure couldn't even come close to SATA. Now, if you want a 40 or 80 conductor parallel cable that's a meter wide, with very wide separation between all the signal carrying conductors (of which there are a LOT, for parallel)..... perhaps that might work. :-) Bottom line: it's not at all practical. JS wrote: A cable redesign could eliminate the crosstalk. -- JS http://www.pagestart.com "Bill in Co." wrote in message ... On the surface, that makes sense - but only on the surface. Let me explain: In practice, it's a false assumption due to the inherent crosstalk problems between adjacent signal carrying conductors in the Parallel ATA cable. And THAT limits the max transfer rate. OTOH, Serial cables do NOT have that problem, since only a single line is carrying the data. Hence, serial cables (like in SATA) can be, and are, much faster. JS wrote: Not crazy over the SATA connectors either. SATA or Serial ATA has another design flaw in that by nature serial data transfers can never be as fast as parallel. -- JS http://www.pagestart.com "Gerry" wrote in message ... I have had a disk connection problem which seems to relate to failing sata cables. The BIOS has failed intermittently to detect one or both hard drives. The problem was more obvious with the master drive so I replaced the cable 14 days ago and there was no further problem until this morning. The problem this morning was the slave drive so I have replaced the cable for that drive. It has now been working for a bit over two hour. The problem first became apparent a month ago when I found the system would freeze after it had been running some time. Resetting sometimes worked and sometimes resulted in a failed boot. Eventually the system would boot but the problem would happen again some hours later or the next day. Sometimes there have been Event Viewer reports -mainly ID: 11 referring to the Controller. Often the problem is unreported. This is probably because the Error is occurring before Event Viewer starts. From a friend I got these comments. "In my view, the SATA 'Connector' is an engineering blunder. A sort-of flat sleeve slides over a notched part on the edge of the board whereupon sit some exposed/un-insulated traces. Flat conductors encased within a plastic bit are slid into contact with them. There is no mechanism but friction to keep the 'connector' in place. Entirely inadequate. It is not designed for repeated make/break insertion/removal. If subjected even to a low number of such operations (design spec is 50), it will fail. (5 000 for an eSATA connector). If I have to repeatedly disconnect-connect a drive during testing, I replace the cable as a matter of routine." I am interested in knowing whether others have encountered this problem and how common place it is? TIA -- Gerry ~~~~ FCA Stourport, England Enquire, plan and execute ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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