With DaaS Windows Coming, Say Goodbye To Your PC As You Know It

Dan Purgert wrote:

In either event, it doesn't change the fact that "WINE" itself really
shouldn't be a compilation target if you're writing software.

It's not a compilation target.

What he wants to do, is only use routines that WINE
will recognize and properly support.

win32 WINE

openfile() "got it"
writefile() "got it"
closefile() "got you covered"

As a rule of thumb, if you insist on testing the
very latest thing that has come out of the
Microsoft Oven, of course it's not going to work
in WINE. But if you use traditional Win32 stuff,
the chances are very good it will work.

win32 WINE

PowerShellPortedRoutine#6789() "Nope, don't got it"

I remember seeing a list of modules/calls that
are supported, at one time. I think it was used
for keeping track of the TODO list. I don't know
if they manage things that way any more or not.

I find WINE pretty good now, for unpacking Windows
materials of unknown parentage for testing purposes.
At one time, hardly anything worked. Now, lots
of stuff works. I think I've even had one game
install OK (I don't generally try and bring
games over on purpose, but if there's adware
or malware in something, I might test it to
see what's in the package). WINE acts as a
replacement for an InstallShield de-archiver,
and makes it easier to scan files in the package
one by one.

Paul

On 08/04/2018 10:01 AM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-08-04 07:02, Dan Purgert wrote:
[...]
It was poor snipping on my part - you don't have to use "that distro's
repository", so long as you get the right package (*deb or *rpm).

I do that too, sometimes. :-)

But that also touches on something you brought up in a different post,
where you feel that having *deb for one "family" and *rpm for the other
"family" is "too many installers".

I think it should be clear by now that I'm arguing as devils' advocate.
I've repeatedly referred to the "ordinary user" and "most people." The
"ordinary user " isflummoxed by having to to extra stuff and know extra
stuff just to install a program and make it run. Me, I like Linux. Really.

See, _most people_ aren't techie geeks. They have no idea what's
actually going on in the device, in the network, on the internet, or
inside Alexa and her clones. Or tap-and-go credit cards. Etc and so
drearily on.

As Paul says, computers have become appliances. A smartphone is a
computer. A game box is a computer. A car is a network of computers, and
linked to the Internet besides. Model train fans now have "digital
command control", every locomotive is a computer. Recently I saw a
snippet on a home-improvement show on how to install a smart lock on
your door to be controlled from your smartphone. At first glance this
looks like making your house more secure. Time-controlled access for
trusted persons, for example. Sure.

I could go on, but I think you get my drift. It's significant that
organisations that understand that security is priority one use Linux.
The general population? Security and safety is the last thing they worry
about. Convenience comes first. Even privacy is ignored: see the
astonishing sales of Alexa and her clones.

Have a good day,


Yes I agree. At the same time it was a pleasure having this discussion
with you and others.
Over all it has been a thread that is a discussion rather than an argument.
Many times my explanations can be cloudy. Even more so with this new
medication.
That's why Dan Purget and others are good to have around. Very clear
explanations.

--
Caver1

Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-08-04 07:02, Dan Purgert wrote:
[...]
It was poor snipping on my part - you don't have to use "that distro's
repository", so long as you get the right package (*deb or *rpm).

I do that too, sometimes. :-)

But that also touches on something you brought up in a different post,
where you feel that having *deb for one "family" and *rpm for the other
"family" is "too many installers".

I think it should be clear by now that I'm arguing as devils' advocate.
I've repeatedly referred to the "ordinary user" and "most people." The
"ordinary user " isflummoxed by having to to extra stuff and know extra
stuff just to install a program and make it run. Me, I like Linux. Really.

Yup, but the topic is still an active part of the (our?) discussion.
So, we talk about it, and both sides refine their points / expand on
where the other side has misinterpreted something.

In my mind, the conversation is overall pretty cordial and productive
(yes, there are some who only want to troll it, but ... well, that's the
internet for you).

As for the "ordinary user" having to do/know extra stuff, I don't see
that as markedly different from a "Windows" guy buying his first Mac; or
learning how a smartphone works. To me, that's one of the overall
weaker arguments for "why Linux is bad".

See, _most people_ aren't techie geeks. They have no idea what's
actually going on in the device, in the network, on the internet, or
inside Alexa and her clones. Or tap-and-go credit cards. Etc and so
drearily on.

Totally agree there.

As Paul says, computers have become appliances. A smartphone is a
computer. A game box is a computer. A car is a network of computers, and
linked to the Internet besides. Model train fans now have "digital
command control", every locomotive is a computer. Recently I saw a
snippet on a home-improvement show on how to install a smart lock on
your door to be controlled from your smartphone. At first glance this
looks like making your house more secure. Time-controlled access for
trusted persons, for example. Sure.

DCC is fun, but the electronics geeks have been doing variations of
multi-locomotive control far longer than DCC. Somewhere around here, I
have an article from the ... um ... maybe 80s(?)... that has the
schematics for one of those DC multi-locomotive control systems.
Honestly, of the things you mentioned, I think it's the LEAST "Joe
Average" tool, as the model train guys seem to overall be much more
prone to tinker with things than "Joe Average" -- I mean, if they
weren't, I don't think that DCC would have such a wealth of programmable
features.

Worst part about those articles is translating from the "back then"
parts to "today". Well, and not being able to "just go to Radio Shack".

Personally, I miss the older "maker" articles that the magazines used to
run, like the "scratchbuild a NYC J3" (IDK if that was an actual series,
but you get the point).

--
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

On 08/04/2018 10:07 AM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-08-04 07:50, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/08/18 01:13, Wolf K wrote:
Isn't Linux just Linux? Or have the freewheeling devs actually
"forked" it into mutually incompatible OSs? Jeez, but that was a
stupid idea. I hadn't clue it was that bad. Really.

No, you just hadn't a clue.

So stop posting drivel

My posts come in many registers, modes, and genres. The above was
Horatian satire. Part of my ongoing critique of the attitude that users
don't matter: If they can't or won't spend time learning what's needed
to use Linux as easily as Windows/OS-X, that' their problem. Not the
****-poor marketing by Linux advocates.

Have a good day,



There are several distros that are as easy to learn if not more so.
Which didn't use to be the case.
I did read today that Linux desktop share is now only .36% behind Apple.
Which is at an all time high for Linux at 2.98%
This is an estimate as there is no way to measure it accurately.
Being that there is an ongoing increase with no marketing shows that the
Linux way isn't that hard to learn. If it was there woudn't be a slow
and steady increase.


--
Caver1

On 08/04/2018 10:17 AM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-08-04 07:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/08/18 01:30, Caver1 wrote:
On 08/03/2018 08:13 PM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-08-03 19:25, Caver1 wrote:
[...]
Windows is closed as far as the OS. OSX is completely closed, OS
and apps.
Linux is completely open. Yes different Families of Linux, Redhat,
Debian, Arch... Have their own package managers. This is because of
different OS structures.

I was under the impression that Linux is Linux wherever you go.
Thanks for clarifying that it's just like the closed Windows: stuff
that will run one version won't necessarily run on anther.



So asking the different families to have the same way to install
apps or app structure would be like saying Windows and OSX be able
to use the same app structure.

Isn't Linux just Linux? Or have the freewheeling devs actually
"forked" it into mutually incompatible OSs? Jeez, but that was a
stupid idea. I hadn't clue it was that bad. Really.

Nothing bad about it.
No each family is basically an OS to itself. None of the Linux
families are a fork of the other. They were each developed
independently.

What the fork were they smoking?

Something better than MS and Apple.

Now with the development of Snaps and Flatpak the Linux world is
far ahead of the Windows and OSX world.
Just try installing a Windows app on OSX or vice versa.

Yeah, well, I've long argued that any program should be able to run
on any OS. After all, C++ is C++ on every machine. Just put in a
"Let's talk nice to each other" layer between the program and the
OS. Good to know that Linux is getting there, despite having been
forked with.


This just shows your ignorance of the Linux environment.

It just shows his ignorance, full stop.
[...]

Oh, I admit I'm not a Linux expert. After all, I only try the latest
Mint about once a year. I like it a lot, but it won't run WordPerfect,
and that's a deal-breaker. I can't stand Word and its work-alikes, and
avoid them as much as possible.

If there's anyone here who runs WordPerfect under WINE, I'd like to hear
from them.

The above is satire-free.

Have a good day,



I haven't found a version of WordPerfect that I could get to load.

--
Caver1

Mayayana wrote:
"Dan Purgert" wrote

| No, but it does hook API calls and direct them to
| its own versions. As I understand it, it's hooking
| the process and translating each API call to a Linux
| equivalent. But not all API functions are covered.
| And the ones that are may have quirks or limitations.
| And it's not a one-for-one translation to the WINE
| libraries.
|
| I'm not entirely sure that's correct -- but as I said (somewhere...) I
| haven't really used wine in the better part of a decade; so maybe
| they've made some major changes to their subsystem.
|

From an oldish copy of the WINE docs that I have he [...]

I don't entirely think we disagree right now. Just that you (seem to
have?) expected that "WINE" would show itself somehow as a valid build
target, rather than just "eh, I'm gonna write for win32".

I don't know enough about writing Windows programs to really say one way
or the other anymore. Or the state of the WINE project either.



| In either event, it doesn't change the fact that "WINE" itself really
| shouldn't be a compilation target if you're writing software. Just
| write for Windows if you want to write for Windows, or Linux if you want
| to write for Linux. Or use one of the various cross-platform languages
| (not java - eww java ) if you want to target both.
|

I was trying to use it to make a soft landing in Linux.
With .Net's arrival and the de-supporting of VB, the writing
was on the wall: Microsoft wanted to steer developers away
from desktop software and toward "Web services". .Net was
always meant to be a Web services tool. But Web services
never took off. (Back then we didnt even have fast enough
connections to do it.)

Haha, I know, right. Here's our sweet new .NET-enabled thing that needs
a 768 kbit connection to work at all ...

.... uh, Microsoft, we still only have 56k dialup...

So MS pretended .Net was good for Desktop
software. Then with the arrival of Metro trinket apps (the
world of giant GUI buttons linking to online services and
Microsoft store applets) MS pretended that .Net was just

Was Metro the Win 8 UI? That was what made me sign off Windows
permanently.

And right about that time a WINE person, picking up
on the growing resentment around .Net, stopped by
a VB group and invited volunteers to try their software
in WINE and collaborate.

And, I think as you said, their idea(?) of "collaboration" was "try your
program in WINE, and tell me what went sideways", or something along
those lines right?

[...]
So I was thinking that maybe I should think about
meandering in the general direction of Linux and thought
that if I could make my favorite Windows programs work
under WINE then maybe the transition could go more
smoothly.
I further thought that rather than wait for WINE to
reach a point where my software runs well, I might be
able to adapt my software if I knew more about WINE's
progress. (As it turns out, I think the best way to adapt
to WINE is just to stick with basic Win32 API as much
as possible. Wrappers bring in too many complications.)

Fair enough. Also, I think that's kind of WINE's angle too (the win32
basic stuff).

If you're up for another go at Linux sometime - you can also check the
site https://alternativeto.net, and search for alternatives to your
current suite of applications. There's not always a "this is just as
good" option though.

One of the worst things about tech, to my mind, is
the extreme rate of obsolescence. It's frustrating to
spend a lot of time mastering something, only to see it
dropped. Having spent years developing an intimate
knowledge of Windows, and grown a bit old in the process,
I'm not inclined to start all over mastering Linux, or
anything else.

haha, I can understand that. The win 8.x/10 changes have thankfully
given me a way out -- "sorry guys, last Win I used was 7 ... they
changed too much." (Although, I'll still help the people I like -
they pay in beer).

Barring the 32- vs. 64-bit changes (and systemd making a trainwreck out
of things), that is kind of a big difference in Linux and Windows.
Sure, the "Desktop Environments" may change on you from time to time (as
with windows) - but if you knew how to do something with commandline
tools in 1993, as long as the tool wasn't replaced outright, it still
works exactly the same way today.

--
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Wolf K wrote:
Oh, I admit I'm not a Linux expert. After all, I only try the latest
Mint about once a year. I like it a lot, but it won't run WordPerfect,
and that's a deal-breaker. I can't stand Word and its work-alikes, and
avoid them as much as possible.

If there's anyone here who runs WordPerfect under WINE, I'd like to hear
from them.

I've never used it myself (so I don't know what differences it has
between "Word and work-alikes"); but perhaps one of the options here may
be of interest:

https://alternativeto.net/software/c...platform=linux

HTH

--
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Dan Purgert wrote:


Yup, and that's pretty public these days. I hang out in the LinuxMint
IRC channels; and for a while there, there was at least one person
*daily* who came into the channel with a story along the lines of "so
that Win10 forced update broke my system, and I came across some article
that said maybe I'd like Mint..."

Some were happy with it nearly out of the box. Others needed a bit of
"yep, things are different; if you keep trying the windows-way of
things, you'll end up frustrated and give up". Finally there were the
group of "tried it, didn't like it, but thanks for trying to help."

The original Windows 10 thesis, was that problems would be
recognized by the usage of telemetry. (Mozilla has been using
this too, and can for example, tell you what percentage
of users are experiencing certain bugs.)

On purpose, I left a few things broken, to see if Microsoft
telemetry would recognize classes of problems and could
fix them from their end. I waited several months.
Nothing happened to my test case. Still broken.
The issue was easy to fix (INFINST), and later
releases no longer have this problem. (The OS installs
everything without prompting or help now.)

The end result is, that there is still value in people
checking the history listing, to see if the word
"borked" appears in there. The sooner you resolve
an issue with the update system, the more you'll
be rewarded in future with working stuff. There
is at least one simple technique, that won't cause
hair loss, that can help. (Track down the borked
update in catalog.update.microsoft.com and download
the file and double click to install. Use the KB number.)
Manual installation seems to help.

http://www.catalog.update.microsoft....px?q=KB4012598

As another example, people who own tablets, only
receive the "current" release of Windows 10,
towards the tail end of the release window. Microsoft
puts a "push" on towards the end of the window,
so they don't end up two releases behind. Microsoft
has had to support and patch more releases, than
their original policy statement suggested.

The very worst scenarios for any OS, are when the
installer cannot make a "perfectly working" OS
on a clean install. Windows 10 had some trouble
with Store Apps, the tile cache, some kind of
authentication system used to protect Store Apps.
We were seeing pictures of deformed icons or
icons not showing up on the Task Bar. (Even Cortana
or Start could be broken, as both are Apps.) And these
were happening for people starting from scratch. It
was almost like a race condition, as not everyone was
seeing this. And months and months later, when this
stopped happening, there were no "lessons learned"
as to what the root cause was. People tried
a lot of stuff to fix that. Yes, there would
be unhappy customers.

Paul

Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-08-04 07:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/08/18 01:30, Caver1 wrote:
On 08/03/2018 08:13 PM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-08-03 19:25, Caver1 wrote:
[...]
Windows is closed as far as the OS. OSX is completely closed, OS
and apps.
Linux is completely open. Yes different Families of Linux, Redhat,
Debian, Arch... Have their own package managers. This is because of
different OS structures.

I was under the impression that Linux is Linux wherever you go.
Thanks for clarifying that it's just like the closed Windows: stuff
that will run one version won't necessarily run on anther.



So asking the different families to have the same way to install
apps or app structure would be like saying Windows and OSX be able
to use the same app structure.

Isn't Linux just Linux? Or have the freewheeling devs actually
"forked" it into mutually incompatible OSs? Jeez, but that was a
stupid idea. I hadn't clue it was that bad. Really.

Nothing bad about it.
No each family is basically an OS to itself. None of the Linux
families are a fork of the other. They were each developed
independently.

What the fork were they smoking?

Something better than MS and Apple.

Now with the development of Snaps and Flatpak the Linux world is
far ahead of the Windows and OSX world.
Just try installing a Windows app on OSX or vice versa.

Yeah, well, I've long argued that any program should be able to run
on any OS. After all, C++ is C++ on every machine. Just put in a
"Let's talk nice to each other" layer between the program and the
OS. Good to know that Linux is getting there, despite having been
forked with.


This just shows your ignorance of the Linux environment.

It just shows his ignorance, full stop.
[...]

Oh, I admit I'm not a Linux expert. After all, I only try the latest
Mint about once a year. I like it a lot, but it won't run WordPerfect,
and that's a deal-breaker. I can't stand Word and its work-alikes, and
avoid them as much as possible.

If there's anyone here who runs WordPerfect under WINE, I'd like to hear
from them.

The above is satire-free.

Have a good day,

Can you tell whether it's something license-related ?

*******

There is one (old) version made specifically for Linux.
Corel did actually try. I think Corel might even have
made their own Linux distro at one time.

http://www.control-escape.com/linux/wp8.html

Corel is not the same company today.

Paul

Paul wrote:
Dan Purgert wrote:


Yup, and that's pretty public these days. I hang out in the LinuxMint
IRC channels; and for a while there, there was at least one person
*daily* who came into the channel with a story along the lines of "so
that Win10 forced update broke my system, and I came across some article
that said maybe I'd like Mint..."

Some were happy with it nearly out of the box. Others needed a bit of
"yep, things are different; if you keep trying the windows-way of
things, you'll end up frustrated and give up". Finally there were the
group of "tried it, didn't like it, but thanks for trying to help."

The original Windows 10 thesis, was that problems would be
recognized by the usage of telemetry. (Mozilla has been using
this too, and can for example, tell you what percentage
of users are experiencing certain bugs.) [...]

Sorry, I should've been more clear -- I meant that forcible "you're
using Windows 10 now!" thing that people who were otherwise happy with
Windows 7/8 got saddled with.


--
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 09:22:28 -0400
Caver1 wrote:

On 08/04/2018 07:05 AM, Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2018 05:14:27 +0000
Philip wrote:
FULL NAME: Cybe R. Wizard
ADDRESS: WizardsTower in the Quiet Forest
STATE: Quasi-conscious
ZIP CODE: 00000
DIRECT CONTACT NUMBER: 1
OCCUPATION: Wizarding
Cybe R. Wizard

I often wondered about your state of mind. You finally confirmed
it.

And that's on a GOOD day.

Cybe R. Wizard
--
Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving
his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental
attitude.
Thomas Jefferson

In alt.os.linux Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 09:22:28 -0400
Caver1 wrote:

On 08/04/2018 07:05 AM, Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2018 05:14:27 +0000
Philip wrote:
FULL NAME: Cybe R. Wizard
ADDRESS: WizardsTower in the Quiet Forest
STATE: Quasi-conscious
ZIP CODE: 00000
DIRECT CONTACT NUMBER: 1
OCCUPATION: Wizarding
Cybe R. Wizard

I often wondered about your state of mind. You finally confirmed
it.

And that's on a GOOD day.

Cybe R. Wizard

And I'm an ant all the time. :P
--
Quote of the Week: "The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer." --Proverbs 30:25 (Bible)
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org / http://antfarm.ma.cx
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit-
| |o o| | ing, then please kindly use Ant nickname and URL/link.
\ _ /
( )

On Sat, 04 Aug 2018 10:58:24 -0500
(Ant) wrote:

And I'm an ant all the time. :P

An ant's gender may be determined by placing the ant into water.

If it sinks, girl ant.

If it floats, buoyant.

Cybe R. Wizard
--
What is the front door of an ant's home called?

The enterants.

"Wolf K" wrote

| If there's anyone here who runs WordPerfect under WINE, I'd like to hear
| from them.
|
Whatever info there is should be he

https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManag...cation&iId=530

On 04/08/18 15:17, Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-08-04 07:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/08/18 01:30, Caver1 wrote:
On 08/03/2018 08:13 PM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-08-03 19:25, Caver1 wrote:
[...]
Windows is closed as far as the OS. OSX is completely closed, OS
and apps.
Linux is completely open. Yes different Families of Linux, Redhat,
Debian, Arch... Have their own package managers. This is because of
different OS structures.

I was under the impression that Linux is Linux wherever you go.
Thanks for clarifying that it's just like the closed Windows: stuff
that will run one version won't necessarily run on anther.



So asking the different families to have the same way to install
apps or app structure would be like saying Windows and OSX be able
to use the same app structure.

Isn't Linux just Linux? Or have the freewheeling devs actually
"forked" it into mutually incompatible OSs? Jeez, but that was a
stupid idea. I hadn't clue it was that bad. Really.

Nothing bad about it.
No each family is basically an OS to itself. None of the Linux
families are a fork of the other. They were each developed
independently.

What the fork were they smoking?

Something better than MS and Apple.

Now with the development of Snaps and Flatpak the Linux world is
far ahead of the Windows and OSX world.
Just try installing a Windows app on OSX or vice versa.

Yeah, well, I've long argued that any program should be able to run
on any OS. After all, C++ is C++ on every machine. Just put in a
"Let's talk nice to each other" layer between the program and the
OS. Good to know that Linux is getting there, despite having been
forked with.


This just shows your ignorance of the Linux environment.

It just shows his ignorance, full stop.
[...]

Oh, I admit I'm not a Linux expert. After all, I only try the latest
Mint about once a year. I like it a lot, but it won't run WordPerfect,

You van run Wordstar, or raher Wordstar compatible 'joe'


and that's a deal-breaker. I can't stand Word and its work-alikes, and
avoid them as much as possible.

Too bloody true. But word perfect?


If there's anyone here who runs WordPerfect under WINE, I'd like to hear
from them.

Should work, but I use an XP VM for 'stuff that doesnt run under linux'

With a SSD and it set to save the VM state it resumes from dead in under
3 seconds

Which is comparable with fdiring up a WP in Windows anyway.

WINE is a humongous hack really.

The above is satire-free.

Have a good day,




--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)