Peace Loving Religion has done it again .........................

On 6/13/2016 12:54 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jun 2016 11:22:26 -0400, Keith Nuttle
wrote:

On 6/13/2016 9:18 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jun 2016 17:46:56 +1200, Dave Doe wrote:

In article , ,
Ken Springer says...

On 6/12/16 6:19 PM, Good Guy wrote:

This time it is only 50 dead and 53 critically injured!! There you have
your peace loving religion.

Is there any religion that can match this?

Christians in the past, I'm afraid. :-(

OK, well as of a few hours ago when he was still alive then

One day, hopefully one day soon, these people (religious people) will
have the knowledge (they already have the intelligence) to work out that
all the 3,000+ gods are man-made constructs.

None of this is about any deity, but rather it is about power, money
and or control. That is what religion has been since humans dreamed
up our first gods. Yes, some of the soldiers might actually believe
in their deity, but the leaders are well aware they do not actually
exist.

The concept of gods is a tool; a lever and a cudgel, to move and
influence and punish those the leaders wish to control.

Our country is based on the Christian religion.

SNIP

Keith, forgive me for snipping your word wall, my reason for doing so
is; the premise of your entire post was based upon the first sentence,
quoted above.

Your premise is specious and fallacious, propaganda which has been
repeated so often by Christians that many people actually accept it as
being factual. that said, I direct your attention to the Treaty of
Tripoli (Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of
America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary).

This treaty was signed in November of 1796, ratified unanimously by
the US Senate on 7 June 1797 and signed into "LAW" by President John
Adams (arguably the most significant founder of our nation), 10 June
1797.

Article 11 of the treaty reads:

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of
enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as
the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility
against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no
pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an
interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

You can see the full content of the treaty, he

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796t.asp

Lastly, your reply to my post, in no way addressed my statements.

This treaty do not cary the force of law internally to the nation.

Every public building erected in the first 200 years of this country was
opened with a Christian pray. The Constitution and the North West
Ordanance were passed by the Congress of the United States, and are the
rules which this county runs by.

Also when you are trying to make a treaty with a muslim nation you would
try to placate them not bring religion into the treaty to stop a muslim
nation form preying on American Shipping.

Read Article 3. "An Ordinance for the government of the Territory of
the United States northwest of the River Ohio."

http://ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?doc=8

http://ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flas...age=transcript

http://ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flas...doc=8&page=pdf


The same ideas area expressed in other places in the Ordances and other
documents at that time.

On 6/13/2016 1:08 PM, Alek wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote on 6/13/2016 1:03 PM:
On 6/13/2016 12:12 PM, Alek wrote:
Northwest Ordinance: "Religion, morality and knowledge, being necessary
to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means
of education shall forever be encouraged" approved by US CONGRESS July
13,1787 of which 41 member helped write the Constitution which was
approved September 17, 1787.
That's taken out of context!


The above is verbatim from Article 3. "An Ordinance for the government
of the Territory of the United States northwest of the River Ohio."

http://ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?doc=8

http://ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flas...age=transcript

http://ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flas...doc=8&page=pdf


"An Ordinance for the government of the Territory of the United States
northwest of the River Ohio."

Pertains only to the Northwest Territory.

"Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good
government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of
education shall forever be encouraged. The utmost good faith shall
always be observed towards the Indians; their lands and property shall
never be taken from them without their consent; and, in their property,
rights, and liberty, they shall never be invaded or disturbed, unless in
just and lawful wars authorized by Congress; but laws founded in justice
and humanity, shall from time to time be made for preventing wrongs
being done to them, and for preserving peace and friendship with them."

Pertains to Indians.

Read the Complete Ordinance, it is the basis for the establishment of
state governments.

On 13/06/2016 18:08, Alek wrote:
So what? No atrocities have occurred in the name of Judaism.

Judaism is catching up in Palestine; Apparently, there is a new
religion called Zionism. Have you heard of it? Trump is a supporter of it.





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burfordTjustice laid this down on his screen :
On Mon, 13 Jun 2016 11:22:26 -0400
Keith Nuttle wrote:

Our country is based on the Christian religion. In spite of what
Jeffersnon said about the separation of church and state, the men who
wrote the constitution never had that idea of the separation that is
being pushed on us today. This is evidenced by the fact that the
same men, who wrote the Constitution, said in the North West
Ordinances which they passed as member of the Congress under the
Article of Confederation. In the North West Ordinance which is the
basis for all states coming into the Union after 1787, they said

Northwest Ordinance: "Religion, morality and knowledge, being
necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools
and the means of education shall forever be encouraged" approved by
US CONGRESS July 13,1787 of which 41 member helped write the
Constitution which was approved September 17, 1787.

The Christian religion IS maintained by humans trying to follow the
two basic rules in the new Testament of the Christian Bible.
1. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.
2. Love thy neighbor as your self.

Humans make mistakes and in trying to achieve their ideals sometimes
go astray. Over 2000 years Christians have made mistakes, but also
following those two rules have done a lot of good. Slavery has been
eliminated from the Christian world, but still is an important part
of the muslim world.

Because of those two rules women have gained rights that have not
been achieved in the muslim world. The same with the civil rights.

Has there been any other country in history that has done what the
Christian based United States has done. Since we are human we have
made mistakes, but because we are a Christian nation realized we were
wrong and tried to correct them. Did we correct the over night or in
a couple of years? No! Are we trying to correct them because we
believe in the above two rules? YES!

As it says in the Constitution

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect
Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for
the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the
Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and
establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

If this country is not following the two rules from the new testament
in the Christian Bible, then we humans are the cause of the problem
not the Christian religion which we profess to follow.

Amen! The basic tenant of muslim world is to convert or kill
all non muslims.

Do you have muslim tenants?

On Mon, 13 Jun 2016 13:12:14 -0400, Keith Nuttle
wrote:

On 6/13/2016 12:54 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jun 2016 11:22:26 -0400, Keith Nuttle
wrote:

On 6/13/2016 9:18 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jun 2016 17:46:56 +1200, Dave Doe wrote:

In article , ,
Ken Springer says...

On 6/12/16 6:19 PM, Good Guy wrote:

This time it is only 50 dead and 53 critically injured!! There you have
your peace loving religion.

Is there any religion that can match this?

Christians in the past, I'm afraid. :-(

OK, well as of a few hours ago when he was still alive then

One day, hopefully one day soon, these people (religious people) will
have the knowledge (they already have the intelligence) to work out that
all the 3,000+ gods are man-made constructs.

None of this is about any deity, but rather it is about power, money
and or control. That is what religion has been since humans dreamed
up our first gods. Yes, some of the soldiers might actually believe
in their deity, but the leaders are well aware they do not actually
exist.

The concept of gods is a tool; a lever and a cudgel, to move and
influence and punish those the leaders wish to control.

Our country is based on the Christian religion.

SNIP

Keith, forgive me for snipping your word wall, my reason for doing so
is; the premise of your entire post was based upon the first sentence,
quoted above.

Your premise is specious and fallacious, propaganda which has been
repeated so often by Christians that many people actually accept it as
being factual. that said, I direct your attention to the Treaty of
Tripoli (Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of
America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary).

This treaty was signed in November of 1796, ratified unanimously by
the US Senate on 7 June 1797 and signed into "LAW" by President John
Adams (arguably the most significant founder of our nation), 10 June
1797.

Article 11 of the treaty reads:

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of
enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as
the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility
against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no
pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an
interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

You can see the full content of the treaty, he

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796t.asp

Lastly, your reply to my post, in no way addressed my statements.

This treaty do not cary the force of law internally to the nation.

Keith, I must contradict you, once again. Under the Supremacy Clause
in the US constitution, Article VI, Clause 2, it states most clearly:

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be
made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be
made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme
Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby,
any Thing [sic] in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the
Contrary notwithstanding."

This means the Constitution, all federal laws made pursuant to the
Constitution, and all treaties made under the authority of the
Constitution are the supreme law of the land.

See: https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlevi

Obviously, you are free to "believe" whatever you wish, but the United
States was founded as, and remains today, a secular nation, not a
Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist or Pagan nation.

An interesting bit of trivia is, a very large number of our nation's
founders were Deists, if you do not know what that means, look it up,
it might interest you.

Good Guy wrote:

This time it is only 50 dead and 53 critically injured!! There you have
your peace loving religion.

Is there any religion that can match this?





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The worst religion, of course, which has massacred the largest numbers
is that of atheism.
The French Revolution, Nazi Germany, Cambodian Khmer Rouge.

Ed

On 13/06/2016 20:44, Jim H wrote:

Some gay men are offended when nobody supports them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEgd9q8ugs4



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"Ken Springer" kirjoitti viestissä
...
On 6/12/16 6:19 PM, Good Guy wrote:

This time it is only 50 dead and 53 critically injured!! There you have
your peace loving religion.

Is there any religion that can match this?

Christians in the past, I'm afraid. :-(


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 44.0
Thunderbird 38.0.1
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

Yes, in the past... but at the present day, there's just this one religion
which supporters diligently raise their body count.

Jim H wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jun 2016 12:12:50 +0100, in ,
Ed Cryer wrote:

Ken Springer wrote:
On 6/12/16 6:19 PM, Good Guy wrote:

This time it is only 50 dead and 53 critically injured!! There you have
your peace loving religion.

Is there any religion that can match this?

Christians in the past, I'm afraid. :-(



Quite so. When you read the histories of the Crusades or the Spanish
Inquisition, you come to the conclusion quite quickly that arseholes can
climb the power ladder under almost any social system.


When it comes to the Crusades, how did the Muslims the Crusades drove
back to whence they came get as far west as Spain in the first place?

Answer - It was by sword in hand.


I quite agree with you there. Islam was forged in warfare.

The point I thought I was making was the brutality that often
accompanied the Crusades; things like the massacre of Jews in Europe,
and then the blood-letting in Jerusalem itself.

Ed

Stormin' Norman wrote on 6/13/2016 1:09 PM:
On Mon, 13 Jun 2016 12:12:07 -0400, Alek
wrote:

And the Republican party's history of attempting to prevent minority
voters from voting?

The above statement is blatantly absurd. It was the party of Lincoln,
the Republicans, who championed the cause and freed the slaves. It
was the party of Ulysses S. Grant, again the Republican party, which
introduced and ratified the 15th amendment to the Constitution of the
United States of America which granted suffrage (the right to vote in
public, political elections) to African Americans.

I did not mention a time frame. I forget when it began but sometime
after Lincoln, Republicans worked to disenfranchise minorities.

I understand you wish to place yourself and your ideology above
others, but you do a disservice to everyone by spreading false
narrative propaganda in order to promote a misguided agenda.

"Above others"? What does that mean?

If I can find the article I read, I will post a link.

knuttle wrote on 6/13/2016 1:15 PM:
On 6/13/2016 1:08 PM, Alek wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote on 6/13/2016 1:03 PM:
On 6/13/2016 12:12 PM, Alek wrote:
Northwest Ordinance: "Religion, morality and knowledge, being necessary
to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means
of education shall forever be encouraged" approved by US CONGRESS July
13,1787 of which 41 member helped write the Constitution which was
approved September 17, 1787.
That's taken out of context!


The above is verbatim from Article 3. "An Ordinance for the government
of the Territory of the United States northwest of the River Ohio."

http://ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?doc=8

http://ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flas...age=transcript

http://ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flas...doc=8&page=pdf


"An Ordinance for the government of the Territory of the United States
northwest of the River Ohio."

Pertains only to the Northwest Territory.

"Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good
government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of
education shall forever be encouraged. The utmost good faith shall
always be observed towards the Indians; their lands and property shall
never be taken from them without their consent; and, in their property,
rights, and liberty, they shall never be invaded or disturbed, unless in
just and lawful wars authorized by Congress; but laws founded in justice
and humanity, shall from time to time be made for preventing wrongs
being done to them, and for preserving peace and friendship with them."

Pertains to Indians.

Read the Complete Ordinance, it is the basis for the establishment of
state governments.



"An Ordinance for the government of the Territory of the United States
northwest of the River Ohio."

Wolf K wrote on 6/13/2016 2:05 PM:
On 2016-06-13 12:48, Alek wrote:
. . .winston wrote on 6/13/2016 12:20 PM:
Good Guy wrote on 06/12/2016 8:19 PM:

This time it is only 50 dead and 53 critically injured!! There you have
your peace loving religion.

Is there any religion that can match this?

Atrocities have occurred in the name of or against religion for centuries.
Christianity, Buddhism, Thuggee(India,Muslim not Islam), Mormons,
Puritans, Romans, Spanish(Inquisition), Romans(Persecution), Aztec and
Mayan(sacrifice), Islam.

Notable absence: Judaism.

You haven't read the Old Testament.

I'm talking about historical facts, not "the word of God" as written by men.

On 2016-06-13, Alek wrote:
I did not mention a time frame. I forget when it began but sometime
after Lincoln, Republicans worked to disenfranchise minorities.

Since it appears you are familiar with the subject it should be trivial
for you to provide a few specific examples and name a few of the people
who were disenfranchised.

Certainly in times past it was the Democrat party which was the party of
slavery, Jim Crow, segregation, and the KKK. (A former member of the KKK,
Democrat Bob Byrd, kept his Senate seat from 1959 until his death in
2010.) It was also the Democrat party that fought tooth and nail against
the Civil Rights Act of 1964. (A much higher percentage of Republicans
than Democrats voted for its passage.)

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On 2016-06-13, Thomk wrote:
Yes, in the past... but at the present day, there's just this one religion
which supporters diligently raise their body count.

Indeed - how many people have Christians beheaded in the name of their
deity recently? How many Buddhists? Hindus? Jews?

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NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Roger Blake wrote on 6/13/2016 7:28 PM:
On 2016-06-13, Alek wrote:
I did not mention a time frame. I forget when it began but sometime
after Lincoln, Republicans worked to disenfranchise minorities.

Since it appears you are familiar with the subject it should be trivial
for you to provide a few specific examples and name a few of the people
who were disenfranchised.

Certainly in times past it was the Democrat party which was the party of
slavery, Jim Crow, segregation, and the KKK. (A former member of the KKK,
Democrat Bob Byrd, kept his Senate seat from 1959 until his death in
2010.) It was also the Democrat party that fought tooth and nail against
the Civil Rights Act of 1964. (A much higher percentage of Republicans
than Democrats voted for its passage.)

Citation?