What OS do most non-USA computers come with nowadays?

"Ann Dunham" wrote

| I would like it if PCs came with no operating system and you just loaded
| whatever you wanted from there.

You can buy "barebones rigs" from some hardware
dealers.

"Ann Dunham" wrote

| How much extra are we paying for a PC with Windows on it?
| Does anyone know?
|

I've heard that it's "up to $80" for Home version. But
it's hard to know. There could be all sorts of deals
behind the scenes. And it seems unlikely that a
$400 box could have $80 worth of Windows on it.
The margins are too thin. But then there's also
shovelware, and one of the most common of those
is MS Office trial software pre-installed. If HP has
to pay $80 but make back $40 with shovelware
deals, how does one calculate our cost?

There may also be more complex deals with Win10.
Shovelware can branch into services and ads.

James Wilkinson Sword replied:

Why do you have a problem just putting your document in documents?
You're behaving like a new secretary who is shown which filing
cabinet everything goes in, then decides to rearrange the way
it's always been done.

Actually, in your example, I leave the old filing cabinet alone, since it's
already so disorganized that it isn't worth trying to organize other
people's crap.

However, I understand your point, which is that I should learn to live with
the mess that already exists, and which only gets worse over time. In
addition, I also understand your point that I can create my own folder in
"My Documents" or in "Documents and Settings" or in "Documents and
Settings\UserName" and put all my stuff there.

I understand your point, but what you don't show that you understand is
that the entire "My Documents" hierarchy is completely trashed by almost
every program out there, if left to their defaults. It's a mess.

So, what you are saying is that I'm a new secretary in an office where
every single time the UPS guy shows up, he shoves stuff in the filing
cabinet where HE wants it (under UPS of course, since they promote their
brands every time, even if the topic of the documents are, say, "taxes").

Then, when the Federal Express guy shows up, he doesn't use the UPS folder
because he wants to brand things his way, so, he shoves it in there under
Federal Express (even though it really belongs under "taxes").

Then TurboTax shows, up, and they do the same crap. So does Adobe. And
Mozilla. And Microsoft. And Apple. And Steam. And McAfee. And so on.

Each company uses whatever filing system they want in My Documents, making
a complete mess of it.

Me?
I just leave that one filing cabinet alone.
It's a complete shambles.
No organization whatsoever.
I just leave it be.

I create a hierarchy completely outside that, in C:\mydata, which nobody
touches but me. When I back that up, I have everything I need, since any
software that I care about (e.g., taxes) goes in c:\mydata\taxes (or
wherever I feel it should go) whether it comes from UPS or McAfee or
TurboTAx.

See?
It makes sense.

The rule is simple.
Never (ever!) use any directory that Microsoft provides by default.

Then you can find anything you need to find.
Without having to deal with all that mess.

Mayayana replied:

| How much extra are we paying for a PC with Windows on it?
| Does anyone know?
|

I've heard that it's "up to $80" for Home version.

That kind of makes sense.
I'm not sure, of course, but we know it's not free.

But
it's hard to know. There could be all sorts of deals
behind the scenes. And it seems unlikely that a
$400 box could have $80 worth of Windows on it.
The margins are too thin. But then there's also
shovelware, and one of the most common of those
is MS Office trial software pre-installed. If HP has
to pay $80 but make back $40 with shovelware
deals, how does one calculate our cost?

Good point in that I don't think I've ever bought a new computer from the
box stores that didn't come with McAfee crapware for example. And now they
shove Office 360 at us, which I think is a subscription service.

There may also be more complex deals with Win10.
Shovelware can branch into services and ads.

Yet another reason for wanting a PC without the operating system out of the
box.

On 30 Jan 2017, Ann Dunham
wrote in alt.comp.os.windows-10:

Then TurboTax shows, up, and they do the same crap. So does Adobe.
And Mozilla. And Microsoft. And Apple. And Steam. And McAfee. And
so on.

No, they don't. I can't remember the last time I saw a program that
either lets you change its default save location or will remember your
most recently used save location.

The rule is simple.
Never (ever!) use any directory that Microsoft provides by
default.

That's just silly and creates more work for you.

On 30 Jan 2017, Nil wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-10:

That should have been:

"I can't remember the last time I saw a program that DOESN'T either
let you change its default save location or remember your most
recently used save location.

On Mon, 30 Jan 2017 20:13:16 +0000 (UTC), Ann Dunham
wrote:

Mayayana replied:

She addressed that in the original post, though it
wasn't entirely clear. She was really asking whether
all Windows computers have Win10.

I was kind of hoping that, in the non-Microsoft world, that the X86/X64 PCs
came with "nothing".

That would (a) save a hundred bucks (or whatever Windows costs the
manufacturer) and (b) allow me to put on whatever I wanted.


The last time I wanted a PC with nothing installed one retail shop
said it would cost more than a PC with Windows already installed
because the staff would take time to reformat the disc and do the
sales and license paperwork. They lost a sale!

Steve

--
Neural Network Software for Windows http://www.npsnn.com

On Mon, 30 Jan 2017 20:13:18 +0000 (UTC), Ann Dunham wrote:

I wish X86/X64 PCs came with nothing, personally.

But computer vendors know that retail customers, by and large, want
'systems', not kits of parts or bare-bones assemblies. Anything else
adds to costs. Vendors know where they are with specifying systems,
but specifying part-built assemblies raises testing issues that add
to costs.

That would drop the cost by (I don't know) maybe 100 bucks (I don't know
what the cost of the operating system is when done this way though).

More like 20 bucks than 100 I think. And adding to the cost of
supplied "add your own system" machines would be the cost of
returning and re-working those that the customer failed to get
working because of UEFI problems or whatever.

"mechanic" wrote

| But computer vendors know that retail customers, by and large, want
| 'systems', not kits of parts or bare-bones assemblies. Anything else
| adds to costs.

Actually there used to be several such shops in
my area. White box builders who also sold parts
and barebones boxes. I bought both boxes and
parts from those shops. It was common to
order a computer from them. Small companies
would often order a full stock of computers from
such companies and get local support. That's all
gone now. The only local store with a full parts
supply is Microcenter, and they're more like a
Dollar Store outlet than a tech supply store, with
discount hardware in crumpled boxes, piled high
or even presented in crates. I don't know of a
shop that builds. And that's in Boston, a large
metropolitan area that's a major tech center, with
MIT in Cambridge and many of the major tech
companies having local offices.

Several factors have changed:

1) Hardware became less expensive.

2) Product Activation meant people couldn't
re-use their Windows disk.

3) The public has gradually become less
tech-literate and more consumeristic.

The result is cheap computers with Windows
pre-loaded, some for under $400. That's often
less than the retail cost of the parts, at the low
end. And those computers are treated as disposable.
Since people don't really have a proper Windows
copy and can't buy barebones boxes for any less,
if their computer dies they just buy a new one.

There's no role for white box builders in that
environment. (But the 10-year-olds in China getting
heavy metal poisoning from cooking metals out of
discarded American hardware for a living are probably
doing a brisk business.)

"Nil" wrote

| The rule is simple.
| Never (ever!) use any directory that Microsoft provides by
| default.
|
| That's just silly and creates more work for you.

Not really. It just means she's learned how to use
the file system. My* folders are designed for people
who don't know and will never know where their files
are because they can't or won't learn how to use
the file system. I've also never used any My* folder.
Those, and App Data folders, are designed for dummies
and corporate employees, respectively.

There's been a debate about this in a photo group
recently. Many photographers using Photoshop but
having little computer experience have taken to using
"asset management" software. That's an official sounding
name for programs like Picassa that add a redundant
level of abstraction to the file system for people who
not only don't know where they put their photos but
probably wouldn't even recognize the files if they came
across them. They don't know file extensions and have
no idea where software has put their files. The dummies
defaults have fed that ignorance, so that now these
people are completely helpless without something like
Picassa to gather their photos, or MS Word to access
their docs.

It's true that people *can* use the file system and
save files as desired, but the convenience features of
defaulting to My* folders has actually made that more
challenging. They're not learning the steps involved as
they use the software. I have two copies of Paint Shop
Pro. V. 5 is just an image editor. V. 16 has a built-in
"management" tool that adds to the bloat and can't
be disabled. It's a kind of custom Explorer window that
specializes in finding images, for people who know how
to crop a photo but don't know how to use their computer.

PAS replied:

Linux is not a viable OS for the "average" type of user. I can imagine
my mother calling me to say that her new printer won't work with her
Linux system and then having to tell her how to make it work - if it
can. For the most part, Windows simply works for people.

While I can't disagree that most people are scared of Linux, I installed a
printer on Windows 10 where it was a disaster until I learned the hidden
secret.

I installed that same printer on Linux, and it was a breeze, just like it
used to be before Windows 10 screwed up setting up a printer.

The printer was an older HP laserjet, the 2100 TN, where Windows 10
pretended it didn't know anything about. SO did the HP web site.

The trick took me many weeks to figure out because it was in the early days
of the Windows 10 conversion from Windows 8, and nobody knew the secret
which is to hit a few buttons when installing the printer asking Microsoft
to "update the Operating SYstem", which doesn't actually update anything,
it just takes HOURS to download Lord Knows What until one of those things
it download (I think it took a dozen hours, as I recall) was the puny HP
printer driver that Windows 10 needed.

Then, if you didn't actually SAVE the thing, you were doomed to do that
whole twelve-hour procedure over again (ask me how I know!).

So, my only point here is that Linux is a LOT better at being a
desktop-based easy-to-use operating system than you seem to think.

If you put Ubuntu on, you'll have a desktop that can be themed to look just
like windows, and you can have a start menu (especially if you use Kubuntu
instead of Unity) that is sort of windows like, and anyway, what "most"
people do is simple on all operating systems.

What do most people do?
1. They browse the web (which is teh same on all operating systems)
2. They read their email (again, the same on all operating systems)

After that, people start specializing, but really, Linux got a desktop and
drivers for all hardware long ago, so, the biggest hurdle to the average
mom and pop was passed long ago.

Now it's just that Firefox puts the "Tools Options" in "Edit
Preferences" minor app-specific differences.

Mayayana replied:

2) Product Activation meant people couldn't
re-use their Windows disk.

I still don't understand this product activation stuff.

I think my Office 2010 Home & Student official discs, for example, allow 3
installations, so, that's plenty for me.

I think I can put my Windows 7 Pro on at least as many (although every time
I do I have to literally call Microsoft and talk to the telephone person to
get it to install since I've MOVED it multiple times).

Yet, every PC any of us has ever bought came with that pretty sticker on
the bottom with a Windows whatever product number.

Are *all* those pretty Windows stickers useless once the laptop dies?
Is there ever a circumstance where we can re-use the Windows "license" that
is on those stickers on an old and dead laptop?

mechanic replied:

More like 20 bucks than 100 I think. And adding to the cost of
supplied "add your own system" machines would be the cost of
returning and re-working those that the customer failed to get
working because of UEFI problems or whatever.

I don't think it's as low as twenty bucks for the operating system, but
maybe it is. I really have no visibility into the price that is actually
paid.

I guess we can say it's somewhere between twenty bucks and a hundred bucks,
which, if we split the difference, is around sixty bucks.

If I could save sixty bucks by putting a free Linux iso on there with a
dual boot to an old copy of WinXP, I'd be happy.

I guess the next time I need a desktop, I can just build it (which sounds
easier than it probably is since I have no special source of components so
I'll be buying at the regular price for each of the dozen components).

1. case
2. power supply
3. motherboard
4. memory
5. processor
6. graphics card (if any)
7. boot drive (SSD)
8. common drive (HDD)
9. optical drive
10. monitor
11. keyboard & mouse
12. speakers

For that home-built system, my goal would be to put Windows on first (since
I don't think you can do Windows after the fact) but it would be any old
Windows that I have lying around that has an installation disc.

Then I would add a modern Linux (probably the latest Kubuntu since Unity is
not to my taste), and with GRUB, I'd dual boot 90% of the time to Linux for
web browsing, email management, photo management, etc.

10% of the time I'd need a Windows-only program like TurboTax or Adobe
Acrobat, in which case I'd just boot to the old Windows and use a common
NTFS file system in between.

Stephen Wolstenholme replied:

The last time I wanted a PC with nothing installed one retail shop
said it would cost more than a PC with Windows already installed
because the staff would take time to reformat the disc and do the
sales and license paperwork. They lost a sale!

This is a problem that is a business problem in economies of scale.
In your case, there was no economy of scale since you're the rare person
(like I am) who is asking for a box store pre-built system, sans OS.

Mayayana replied:

Not really. It just means she's learned how to use
the file system. My* folders are designed for people
who don't know and will never know where their files
are because they can't or won't learn how to use
the file system. I've also never used any My* folder.
Those, and App Data folders, are designed for dummies
and corporate employees, respectively.

You seem to be the only one I've ever met who understands what's going on!

Long (long) ago, when Win95 or maybe Win2K came out, I used to mess with
the %temp% and %my documents% and %program files% settings (long before "my
pictures", "my music" and other my crap folders existed).

But then I learned that half the programs used the variables, while the
other half just hard coded in the original microsoft defaults. So what
happened was a mess.

Same thing happened with the start menu, where I carefully managed its
location, but than I found that half the programs used the hard-coded
location and the other half respected the settings in the registry. And
worse, almost all programs filled it with crap like "uninstall" and
"readme" and "buy this too!" garbage.

After a few years of fighting this urban sprawl, I simply realized that
is't simpler to set up my own safe Central Park outside the jungle that is
Manhatten, where in this Central Park, I could have things zen simple,
while everyone else is trying to deal with the hustle and bustle that is
Manhatten Island.

There's been a debate about this in a photo group
recently.

This whole "My Photos" thing is utterly crazy to me because I don't
organize my data files the same way as the guy at Microsoft who thought he
was a genius by creating "My Photos", "My Documents", "Favorites",
"Recent", "Application Data", "Templates", "Shared Music", "My Music", etc.

I just have "data". It's "my data", and it's organized how I want it
organized. Certainly nothing is organized by brand names. Nothing is
organized by a program name either. I mean, is a photo *.jpg an "irfanview
document". Nope. It's just a JPEG file. Even a turbotax document is just a
document in my finance folder. It happens to have a ttax extension, so it
will open up in Turbotax, but certainly taxes saved with a PDF extension
don't have to open up in Adobe Acrobat. They can open up in Foxit for all I
care. So the extension takes care of the file type so a brand name is never
needed.

I don't need all those folders.
I just need my "data" folder, and in that, I organize things ahead of time
the way I want them to be organized.

As you said, I learned how to deal with two things:
1. The file system (I simply create my own safe separate hierarchy)
2. The program defaults (every program setting is set once to respect this)

Of course, there are plenty of dumb programs out there that don't have
defaults or that make moving the defaults difficult. As one example,
Microsoft Windows constantly re-creates "My Photos" and "My Music" even
though I will never (ever!) use them, so I used to delete them on sight!

Since they kept getting created by who knows what (mostly updates, as I
recall), I just learned to live with them. Basically what you call
"learning how to use the file system" is, in reality, more like learning
how to live with the idiocy of a file system made for morons who can't find
anything.

So what I do now, is keep "My Photos" and in there, I simply put a link to
"mydata". Likewise with *all* the Microsoft default directories. Each one
has a link to "mydata" so whenever a program default insists on going to
"my photos", it's just a click to my data!

In that sense, yes, I learned how to use the file system (in this case, how
to use *.lnk redirection files).

Many photographers using Photoshop but
having little computer experience have taken to using
"asset management" software. That's an official sounding
name for programs like Picassa that add a redundant
level of abstraction to the file system for people who
not only don't know where they put their photos but
probably wouldn't even recognize the files if they came
across them.

This is exactly my beef. I like that you have a brain!
1. People can't find their stuff.
2. So Microsoft makes defaults for them for their stuff.
3. Programs constantly make a mess of those defaults
4. So people still can't find their stuff
5. So someone comes up with an "asset management" search engine

Each time you resort to these "asset management" search engines (just wait
until you see how Apple adds this stuff in spades), you actually make the
operating system harder to deal with.

If people just stored their stuff in logical locations of their choosing,
they'd be able to find them without needing increasing levels of
abstraction (Apple calls them "libraries" but what they really are is a
mess categorized by a computer search engine).

They don't know file extensions and have
no idea where software has put their files. The dummies
defaults have fed that ignorance, so that now these
people are completely helpless without something like
Picassa to gather their photos, or MS Word to access
their docs.

Exactly what I decry! You speak worlds of wisdom.
I'd say you're one in (literally) a million though.

Very few people understand the wisdom of what you just said in that last
sentence.


It's true that people *can* use the file system and
save files as desired, but the convenience features of
defaulting to My* folders has actually made that more
challenging. They're not learning the steps involved as
they use the software. I have two copies of Paint Shop
Pro. V. 5 is just an image editor. V. 16 has a built-in
"management" tool that adds to the bloat and can't
be disabled. It's a kind of custom Explorer window that
specializes in finding images, for people who know how
to crop a photo but don't know how to use their computer.

My rule is that I never save a file that I don't know exactly where I saved
it, and why. In the beginning, ten or twenty years ago, I had to think of
where I wanted to save, say, pictures versus my taxes.

Once I made that decision, it doesn't really change over the decades, since
my photos are fundamentally different from my taxes. Even a PHOTO of my
taxes (e.g., a photo of my envelope proving I mailed it or something) would
go in my tax folder, as would a PDF of my taxes, as would a Word document
from my accountant about my taxes. Notice they're all different types of
files but that doesn't matter. What matters is that they're all my tax
files so they go into my tax folder.

I think most people would have the Word document about their taxes
scattered in some Microsoft Office default folder, with a photo of their
taxes in a My Photos folder and a PDF of their taxes in some God-forsaken
Adobe-branded default location with the actual Tax binary file in an
Intuit-branded location.

Me?
All my taxes are in c:\mydata\mytaxes (it's actually more complex because I
organize by year, but that's the gist of it).

Why don't more people understand what the two of us seem to understand?
I don't know the answer. Are they stupid? Probably not.
Are they clueless? Maybe.

But maybe they just never learned how to deal with the file system?
It's like learning how to fold maps, and how to read maps.

Once you figure out how to fold maps and how to read them, it's not so bad.
But if you never spend the time learning how to fold maps and how to read
them, you're forever doomed to need software to do it for you.