Two "expert" issues I must solve before upgading

I have a few WIN98SE machines I am thinking of upgrading
to XP Home. I built and maintain these machines myself.
I have read inside-out and nutshell, sniffed around the
web, posted a few places, and gotten good answers to all
my questions, except for two.....

1) I am anal about backups. I use PKZIP for incrementals
daily, fulls weekly. I have restored several crashed
disks by simply buying a new disk, hooking it up as a
2ndary IDE disk to another machine, initing it (SYS),
restoring the last PKZIP backup, and the plugging the disk
into the machine that had the crash and booting up. I
understand I never backed up files open for writing but
this wasn't a problem.

I would think that I can do the same thing in XP using
NTBACKUP (or, even PKZIP again). backup all files/folders
to a backup file on a different machine, and if the disk
crashes - get a new one, make it bootable, expand the last
backup on it, move it to the target machine.

However, many people (without specifics) say no, there's
something magic on those XP disks that makes the O/S more
than the sum of what's in its files and folders, and you
must use a disk-imaging program (ghost, diskimage) or you
will never restore a crashed disk.

So - what's the scoop - is there information that I need
to recover on an XP system that cannot be captured by
backing up all files and folders? what is this
information?

ps - yes, I'm hoping to use NTFS if that helps.
================================================

2) One machine has 15 years legacy of old professional tax
preparation programs and their data files. Some were DOS,
some were WIN95, etc. So - I'm --thinking-- of making
this machine dual boot. That is - installing WINXP on a
different partition than WIN98. Going through the smaller
set of current apps and re-installing those that don't
just work under XP (one nice thing about financial apps is
they make light use of the O/S , registry, Active X, etc),
and leave the legacy of old programs alone, accessing them
under the old WIN98 O/S if needed. My concerns a

1) Will the old O/S suffer 'software rot' because of stuff
(installs, etc) that happen under XP, such that a year
from now I won't be able to boot.

2)Will the dual boot environment have negative side
effects affecting maintenance, etc.

3) currently my C:\ partition has just apps, my D:\
partition has even more apps, and the WIN98SE O/S. I was
planning to put XP on the C: partition. Should I create a
new partition JUST for the XP home OS?

again - planning to use NTFS if I can.

thanks!
/j







thanks
/j

"Jeff W"
wrote in :
I have a few WIN98SE machines I am thinking of upgrading
to XP Home. I built and maintain these machines myself.
I have read inside-out and nutshell, sniffed around the
web, posted a few places, and gotten good answers to all
my questions, except for two.....

1) I am anal about backups. I use PKZIP for incrementals
daily, fulls weekly. I have restored several crashed
disks by simply buying a new disk, hooking it up as a
2ndary IDE disk to another machine, initing it (SYS),
restoring the last PKZIP backup, and the plugging the disk
into the machine that had the crash and booting up. I
understand I never backed up files open for writing but
this wasn't a problem.

I would think that I can do the same thing in XP using
NTBACKUP (or, even PKZIP again). backup all files/folders
to a backup file on a different machine, and if the disk
crashes - get a new one, make it bootable, expand the last
backup on it, move it to the target machine.

However, many people (without specifics) say no, there's
something magic on those XP disks that makes the O/S more
than the sum of what's in its files and folders, and you
must use a disk-imaging program (ghost, diskimage) or you
will never restore a crashed disk.

So - what's the scoop - is there information that I need
to recover on an XP system that cannot be captured by
backing up all files and folders? what is this
information?

ps - yes, I'm hoping to use NTFS if that helps.
snip

The NT Backup program (for Windows XP and, I think, in Windows 2003
Server) uses shadow copying so inuse files are not a problem to backup,
like the registry files. However, it only supports writing the backup
to a file (on a hard drive or network drive) or tape. It does not
support CD media and I don't recall if you can use external/removable
drives. In any case, remember that the backup is a logical backup. It
had to READ the *files* to make a copy of them. This can cause some
problems on a restore. If you have EFS-protected files, it is likely
that you will perform a full restore which installs and loads a copy of
Windows and then runs the restore but you never got the chance to import
your previously exported EFS certificate. That means the restore won't
be able to read those EFS-protected files. This bit me once. It
happened a second time when I used Norton Ghost to supposedly create a
disk image (actually a partition image) but that product defaults to
"logical" images, too, by reading files instead of saving a physical
image by reading sectors, so Ghost in a later restore couldn't read the
EFS-protected files. The solution was to force Norton Ghost to make
physical drive images by using its /IA command-line parameter. However,
I eventually compiled several pages of defects to report to Symantec who
worked with me by telephone and e-mail over a span of about 3 weeks to
resolve many of the issues but some were merely workarounds or "just
can't do that" solutions. I ended up using Powerquest's DriveImage (for
personal home use), especially since their physical image required far
fewer CDs than Ghost's /IA image (DriveImage would record but skip
unused sectors whereas Ghost would just blindly include them in the
image). There have since appeared other disk imaging software, like
Acronis TrueImage, but I can't comment on their usability stability.
Even DriveImage has its quirks, like you may have to use the bootable
floppies it can create because of defects in how it writes to NTFS
partitions for the image fileset (too often I'll get "cannot find file"
for the image file it was just writing to). So I use their bootable
DriveImage floppies but found out that I had to replace the Caldera-DOS
that they use with MS-DOS for better stability on the NTFS driver they
use.

Another problem is that a logical store won't put the files back exactly
where they were physically before. I had one educational training
software that had to be skipped by the defragmenter (you had to list the
file in the defragger's exclude list); else, the license wouldn't work
and you couldn't run the program. A logical restore won't physically
put the files back exactly where they were before. In my opinion, the
overhead of reading files and then laying them down within the file
system takes longer than laying down sectors from a physical backup.

A drive image (which really just provides an image of a partition and
possibly includes the MBR in some products) is a physical backup. What
you had before is what you get again. Some products will let you resize
the partition during the restore but the used sectors are still laid
down in the same order. The only problem that I remember (other than
the noted change from Caldera-DOS to MS-DOS on their bootable floppies,
or just using a FAT32 partition to save the image fileset) that caused
data loss was trying to use the image on a completely different hardware
platform. The physical geometry translation for the drives in the
target host were too different from the source host and I ended up with
a garbled restore. Most "personal" disk imaging products are licensed
for use on only 1 computer (to help ensure but not guarantee similar
drive hardware, controller, and drive geometry). The drive controllers
and BIOSes were really different so it wasn't a real shocker.

So I still use NT Backup to save copies of my data files, which includes
other user files, like configuration files, game saves, copies of .reg
files created from the registry for products that save their config data
there, etc. That's just makes good sense as part of what should be your
normal data backup routine, anyway. I save a disk image for a physical
backup for a quick, easy, and exact restore in case of disaster.
DriveImage does have its File Explorer to let you yank specific files
out of the disk image fileset but, Christ, it is slower than retrieving
files that are at the end of a tape cartridge (not for individual files
but if you want to recover several thousand then it c-r-a-w-l-s, and
another reason why I still do data file backups to tape or CD-R).

It depends on what backup media you have. I recommend doing both
logical and physical backups. Logical backups are easy for restoring
just a file or some files. Physical backups are quick and easy for
disaster recovery.

I'll let other readers answer your other questions. With as verbose as
I've gotten just on doing backups, I'm sure you don't want me getting
involved in how best to migrate. :-o What I will say, however, is that
upgrading from a 95-based version of Windows to an NT-based version is
not an upgrade. It is a *migration*. I *NEVER* upgrade between Windows
95/98/ME to Windows NT4/2000/XP because too much corrosive garbage gets
carried along to pollute the OS to which you migrated. Lots of users do
it because it is easy (at first) and fast (they don't have the time for
a fresh full install, well, at least in the beginning they think they
are saving time). I do a fresh install of the OS and then restore my
data files into that new OS install. It takes more time up front but I
don't waste the time later fixing problems caused by a polluted upgrade.

--
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-----Original Message-----
I have a few WIN98SE machines I am thinking of upgrading
to XP Home. I built and maintain these machines myself.
I have read inside-out and nutshell, sniffed around the
web, posted a few places, and gotten good answers to all
my questions, except for two.....

1) I am anal about backups. I use PKZIP for incrementals
daily, fulls weekly. I have restored several crashed
disks by simply buying a new disk, hooking it up as a
2ndary IDE disk to another machine, initing it (SYS),
restoring the last PKZIP backup, and the plugging the
disk
into the machine that had the crash and booting up. I
understand I never backed up files open for writing but
this wasn't a problem.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:33:46 -0700, Jeff W wrote:

I would think that I can do the same thing in XP using
NTBACKUP (or, even PKZIP again). backup all files/folders
to a backup file on a different machine, and if the disk
crashes - get a new one, make it bootable, expand the last
backup on it, move it to the target machine.

However, many people (without specifics) say no, there's
something magic on those XP disks that makes the O/S more
than the sum of what's in its files and folders, and you
must use a disk-imaging program (ghost, diskimage) or you
will never restore a crashed disk.

XP Pro's ntbackup supports ASR(Automated System Recovery) and includes the
component in a default install. It works well for disaster recovery but due
to its limitations, recommend maintaining backup sets on a separate drive.

There are caveats with XP Home and ntbackup: The program is provided as a
valueadd component, not as a builtin component. Intended more as a data
backup tool than a system recovery tool. I've seen articles describing the
use of ASR in Home but would not be confident using it as a full-fledged
disaster recovery plan.

Even with XP Pro, I use a third party imaging program for this purpose. ASR
is handy but not as elegant of a solution as some of the other programs out
there.

--
Sharon F
MS-MVP ~ Windows XP Shell/User

HI VanguardX - thanks for the detailed response

1) Not interested in backing up to recordable media - only disk-to-disk.
2) What the heck is "EFS-protected" files - how do I know if I have any?
3) If a few apps have to be re-installed after the restore because they
are tied to physical disk locations (games often do this), I'm OK with
that.
4) Having logical and physical backups is certainly suspenders and belt
- but, given my comments above, it sounds like the logical backup is
good enough. What I'm trying to do is have complete enough backups
that can be totally automated, without paying lots of bucks per machine
for a backup program, because eventually this will go on 3 machines.
I'll pay the bucks if I have to, but I haven't had to yet, so I'm
testing whether XP really requires high-power software just to be able
to recover from a disk crash. Not sure whether you're saying it does or
doesn't.
5) By all means, be verbose. I'm glad you have the luxury of doing a
clean install. You either have way fewer apps, or way more time 8-}.
Seriously, for the 'big" machine (the one my wife's tax prep business
runs on, with over 10 years of old apps that have to work, no chance of
porting them and moving the data - it would take days and you still
wouldn't be sure it's right), I'm contemplating a fresh install into a
different partition, and dual-boot. The current apps get re-installed,
the older apps maybe just work (financial apps are light on their O/S
use so they might work), or she'll have to reboot under 98 to get them
to work (assuming, and this is my fear, that the old O/S doesn't suffer
SW rot over time). On 'my' machine (also win98se, but newer, smaller
number of apps, and very 'clean'), I'm contemplating an upgrade as I
think if it will work anywhere, this is a prime candidate, and after
all, it is faster. However, any advice you have would be appreciated.
Note that I'm quite IT literate, built all my machines myself (HW and
O/S install), and keep them very clean (no rogue or adware, etc).
They're actually quite stable, and my primarly motivation for upgrading
is that newer SW isn't really 98 -friendly anymore.

thanks
/j


Vanguardx wrote:


The NT Backup program (for Windows XP and, I think, in Windows 2003
Server) uses shadow copying so inuse files are not a problem to backup,
like the registry files. However, it only supports writing the backup
to a file (on a hard drive or network drive) or tape. It does not
support CD media and I don't recall if you can use external/removable
drives. In any case, remember that the backup is a logical backup. It
had to READ the *files* to make a copy of them. This can cause some
problems on a restore. If you have EFS-protected files, it is likely
that you will perform a full restore which installs and loads a copy of
Windows and then runs the restore but you never got the chance to import
your previously exported EFS certificate. That means the restore won't
be able to read those EFS-protected files. This bit me once. It
happened a second time when I used Norton Ghost to supposedly create a
disk image (actually a partition image) but that product defaults to
"logical" images, too, by reading files instead of saving a physical
image by reading sectors, so Ghost in a later restore couldn't read the
EFS-protected files. The solution was to force Norton Ghost to make
physical drive images by using its /IA command-line parameter. However,
I eventually compiled several pages of defects to report to Symantec who
worked with me by telephone and e-mail over a span of about 3 weeks to
resolve many of the issues but some were merely workarounds or "just
can't do that" solutions. I ended up using Powerquest's DriveImage (for
personal home use), especially since their physical image required far
fewer CDs than Ghost's /IA image (DriveImage would record but skip
unused sectors whereas Ghost would just blindly include them in the
image). There have since appeared other disk imaging software, like
Acronis TrueImage, but I can't comment on their usability stability.
Even DriveImage has its quirks, like you may have to use the bootable
floppies it can create because of defects in how it writes to NTFS
partitions for the image fileset (too often I'll get "cannot find file"
for the image file it was just writing to). So I use their bootable
DriveImage floppies but found out that I had to replace the Caldera-DOS
that they use with MS-DOS for better stability on the NTFS driver they
use.

Another problem is that a logical store won't put the files back exactly
where they were physically before. I had one educational training
software that had to be skipped by the defragmenter (you had to list the
file in the defragger's exclude list); else, the license wouldn't work
and you couldn't run the program. A logical restore won't physically
put the files back exactly where they were before. In my opinion, the
overhead of reading files and then laying them down within the file
system takes longer than laying down sectors from a physical backup.

A drive image (which really just provides an image of a partition and
possibly includes the MBR in some products) is a physical backup. What
you had before is what you get again. Some products will let you resize
the partition during the restore but the used sectors are still laid
down in the same order. The only problem that I remember (other than
the noted change from Caldera-DOS to MS-DOS on their bootable floppies,
or just using a FAT32 partition to save the image fileset) that caused
data loss was trying to use the image on a completely different hardware
platform. The physical geometry translation for the drives in the
target host were too different from the source host and I ended up with
a garbled restore. Most "personal" disk imaging products are licensed
for use on only 1 computer (to help ensure but not guarantee similar
drive hardware, controller, and drive geometry). The drive controllers
and BIOSes were really different so it wasn't a real shocker.

So I still use NT Backup to save copies of my data files, which includes
other user files, like configuration files, game saves, copies of .reg
files created from the registry for products that save their config data
there, etc. That's just makes good sense as part of what should be your
normal data backup routine, anyway. I save a disk image for a physical
backup for a quick, easy, and exact restore in case of disaster.
DriveImage does have its File Explorer to let you yank specific files
out of the disk image fileset but, Christ, it is slower than retrieving
files that are at the end of a tape cartridge (not for individual files
but if you want to recover several thousand then it c-r-a-w-l-s, and
another reason why I still do data file backups to tape or CD-R).

It depends on what backup media you have. I recommend doing both
logical and physical backups. Logical backups are easy for restoring
just a file or some files. Physical backups are quick and easy for
disaster recovery.

I'll let other readers answer your other questions. With as verbose as
I've gotten just on doing backups, I'm sure you don't want me getting
involved in how best to migrate. :-o What I will say, however, is that
upgrading from a 95-based version of Windows to an NT-based version is
not an upgrade. It is a *migration*. I *NEVER* upgrade between Windows
95/98/ME to Windows NT4/2000/XP because too much corrosive garbage gets
carried along to pollute the OS to which you migrated. Lots of users do
it because it is easy (at first) and fast (they don't have the time for
a fresh full install, well, at least in the beginning they think they
are saving time). I do a fresh install of the OS and then restore my
data files into that new OS install. It takes more time up front but I
don't waste the time later fixing problems caused by a polluted upgrade.

thanks but I was talking about XP home
/j

"Jeff W"
wrote in :
HI VanguardX - thanks for the detailed response

1) Not interested in backing up to recordable media - only
disk-to-disk.

The NT Backup utility will backup to file. I just don't remember if it
supports external drives, like connected to a USB or firewire port.

2) What the heck is "EFS-protected" files - how do I
know if I have any?

EFS = Encrypted File System

It lets you encrypt files (or folders and any files put into them).
Like security certificates that you can get for digitally signing and/or
encrypting your e-mail, enabling EFS will create a security certificate.
You must remember to export the EFS certificate and secure the floppy
(or whatever you saved it on) because you might need it later, like for
a logical file restore (hard drives do die). If you don't have that
security certificate, and if no other account ever got designated as a
file recovery agent (Windows XP requires you to define one if you want
one whereas Windows 2000 automatically included the local Administrator
account), even you won't be able to read your EFS-protected files.

Start - Help and Support - search on "EFS".

If you don't know about EFS then it is likely that you haven't used EFS,
so for you it is a non-issue as yet.

3) If a few apps have to be re-installed after
the restore because they are tied to physical disk locations (games
often do this), I'm OK with that.

The drive letter assignments won't change. In DOS and Windows 9x/ME,
drive letters were assigned in the same order they were discovered by
the BIOS: each physical drive was scanned to note the primary and active
partition on that drive to assign a drive letter to it and then the next
physical drive got scanned, then the scanning returned to the first
drive and assigned drive letters to all of the logical drives defined in
an extended partition on that drive and then the next physical drive got
scanned for an extended partition. The motherboards IDE ports got
scanned first and then the BIOS was used for a SCSI card to find any of
its drives. Driver-supported drives, like CD-ROM and DVD-ROM drives,
got assigned drive letters last. A: and B: were reserved whether you
had floppy drives or not. Other than floppy drives A: and B:, Windows
2000 and XP don't base drive letter assignments on the BIOS scan order.
Part of MBR (master boot record) on each drive is a disk signature, a
unique alphanumeric string given to each drive (after it is initialized
within Windows). Windows can then identify the drive no matter if you
later move it around on the IDE/SCSI/SATA controllers or change which is
master and slave. That way the drive letter assignment follows the
physical drive. You might have C: on the motherboard's IDE-0 port as
master and then move it to the IDE-1 port as slave and it will still be
drive C:. It is possible the disk signature gets corrupted or
duplicates another, like when you move drives between hosts, so you need
to use the Disk Management applet to rescan the disks to ensure each has
a unique disk signature or gets assigned one (i.e., the disk signature
bytes in the MBR get updated). These disk signatures are also recorded
in the registry (and how Windows knows what drive letter to assign to
which physical drive).

If all you create is one primary partition on a drive then its drive
letter won't change. If you have multiple primary partitions, whichever
is the currently marked active one is the only one used (and how you can
get multiple operating systems easily installed on a host and switch
between them, although there are other more pollutive methods). If you
change the order of the primary partitions by moving them around using,
say, PartitionMagic, so the first primary partition becomes the second
primary partition, that still shouldn't hurt because only one of them
will be marked active and used at a time. I don't recall if you can
move logical drives around within an extended partition. I suppose it
is possible to move the partitions around so C: became D:. Then comes
along Windows XP's ability to define dynamic volumes using unallocated
space in a RAID-like Spanning volume to really confuse things. There
are utilities, like DriveMapper included with PartitionMagic, that will
search for references to the old drive letter and change them to the
desired drive letter (should drive letter assignments get jumbled), or
you can do that yourself by searching the registry and checking the
config files for your applications (very time consuming). Sometimes it
is just easier to save your data (if it is in the same install path as
the application), uninstall the application (if possible), and reinstall
it in the same spot to get it to then use the changed drive assignments.
But if you have 100 GB of programs to install, it might take less time
to edit the registry and config files than to [uninstall and] reisntall
all those applications. I could never figure by Gates decided to use
drive letters (Unix doesn't have them) but then this stupidity is a
carry-over from way back when he conned IBM into using his modified
Seattle DOS.

4) Having logical and physical backups is certainly suspenders and
belt - but, given my comments above, it sounds like the logical
backup is good enough. What I'm trying to do is have complete
enough backups that can be totally automated, without paying lots of
bucks per machine for a backup program, because eventually this will
go on 3 machines. I'll pay the bucks if I have to, but I haven't had
to yet, so I'm testing whether XP really requires high-power software
just to be able to recover from a disk crash. Not sure whether
you're saying it does or doesn't.

Logical backups are best for data backups. There's not much point in
backing up applications since you can simply reinstall them again (and
apply updates thereafter to get to the same version as before). That's
why when you define the folder and files to include in your logical
backup that you needn't bother to include the applications or even the
OS itself. I would, however, select to save the System State as this
includes the registry files (I don't remember if you have to be logged
in under an admin account to get the registry files for all accounts but
it sounds a plausible security mechanism). The NT Backup included in
Windows 2000/XP is, er, was a crippled version of Veritas' Backup Exec
Desktop. Veritas has since sold off that product to Stomp Inc where it
is now called Backup MyPC. I still have the old v4.6 of Backup Exec
Desktop since the sold-off version seems to have been mostly updated
just to replace the copyright and company info within the program's
files (i.e., no bang for the buck). Besides file and tape support for
backup filesets, I can also use removable media, like CD-R[W].

My father runs a business from home as a mechanical contractor and all
he does is logical backups. That is sufficient for him. When I setup
his machine initially, I created disk images. Whenever I do major
changes on his system, I save disk images. This allows for very quick
disaster recovery. I use CD-R media instead of using another drive
simply because I do not want to rely on a mechanical device to provide
disaster recovery. Hard drives go bad (i.e., mechanicals) and can be
damaged (from handling/shock or surges frying their interface
circuitry). With CD-Rs (eventually to be supplanted by DVD-R), I don't
have to worry about a bad drive as we can just get another one to
continue using the backup media. The logical backups for data (which
use tape so restores are slow but you can get a lot on tape and restores
shouldn't be something often needed) are sufficient to recover the data
from end-user mistakes or hardware failure. But recovering a full
system disaster (fire, hard drive crash, theft, etc.) by having to
reinstall the OS, all applications, and then walk through all the full
and weekly and daily incremental backups will take a L-O-N-G time during
which you cannot do your business (i.e., expensive!). That's why I like
disk images for quick recovery back to some snapshot you took of the
system. Instead of taking days to recover, you recover in a few hours
(depends on how big an image you are restoring). Downtime is very
expensive in business. Your customer really doesn't care about your
woes when they want your your job quote. The disk image is a snapshot
so you will still have to perform some logical restores for data that
was changed since then but that goes a lot quicker than having to go
through all the full, weekly incremental, and daily incremental backups
you have done since the beginning of doing backups.

Logical backups are good for restoring a few files. If the files are
all recently changed and backed up then even restoring several thousand
won't take that long, either. But having to restore a complete set of
data files through all tapes can be very expensive. It depends on what
backup media you use. Tape is slow but capacity is large (compared to
other traditional removable media). CD-R or DVD-R is nice, doesn't rely
on drive mechanicals for usability of the backup media itself, but won't
have anywhere near the storage capacity of a hard drive. Hard drives
are very quick for backups but you are risking loss due to mechanical or
electrical failure of the device, so use them for only as far back for
your incrementals as you are willing to lose data, like for your daily
incremental backups (or perhaps even for your monthly incrementals if
you are willing to lose data back that far).

And ALWAYS include the option in the backup program to VERIFY your
backup after it got created. This doubles the time to perform the
logical backup, but what the hell good is a backup that you find later
is unreadable? I've seen people take the easy route of not enabling the
verify option because they whine it takes too long, until later when
they try to perform the backup and find the tape, CD-R, or drive won't
read a portion of its media and that highly critical file is now
completely lost (or the required latest version is lost).

5) By all means, be verbose. I'm glad you have the luxury of doing a
clean install. You either have way fewer apps, or way more time 8-}.
Seriously, for the 'big" machine (the one my wife's tax prep business
runs on, with over 10 years of old apps that have to work, no chance
of porting them and moving the data - it would take days and you
still wouldn't be sure it's right), I'm contemplating a fresh install
into a different partition, and dual-boot. The current apps get
re-installed, the older apps maybe just work (financial apps are
light on their O/S use so they might work), or she'll have to reboot
under 98 to get them to work (assuming, and this is my fear, that the
old O/S doesn't suffer SW rot over time). On 'my' machine (also
win98se, but newer, smaller number of apps, and very 'clean'), I'm
contemplating an upgrade as I think if it will work anywhere, this is
a prime candidate, and after all, it is faster. However, any advice
you have would be appreciated. Note that I'm quite IT literate, built
all my machines myself (HW and O/S install), and keep them very clean
(no rogue or adware, etc). They're actually quite stable, and my
primarly motivation for upgrading is that newer SW isn't really 98
-friendly anymore.

Then I would say go with the upgrade, er, migrate from Windows 9x to
Windows XP. Even if you run into a problem later, it sounds like you
have the wherewithall to correct the problem, like reinstalling just
that application, changing its configuration in files or the registry,
or installing the appropriate motherboard, video, and sound drivers.
There are already so many problems when using Windows and various
applications on it that I'd rather spend the time up front than do it
later because I'll already be taking care of other problems later (even
if it were a fresh install). Consider it preventative maintenance, like
changing the oil in your car rather than waiting for a disaster or a
dental checkup instead of waiting for the pain to make you go in.
Sometimes you don't save any time when executing preventative measures
but they are often easier to implement than the effort involved in
recovering from a disaster. Replacing your laundry washer hoses every 5
years is easier than cleaning up your basement because the hose burst
and the expense of finding out that flooding wasn't covered by your
insurance.

It all depends on how much time you have and how secure you feel in
doing a migration rather than a fresh start. If you feel you have your
butt covered with backups and have a stable system and have prepped it
for the OS migrate and checked all your hardware and software is
compatible (or claims it is) then go for it. However, disk imaging
software really isn't that expensive to provide for very quick recovery
(back to what was usable before). The other choice is to mirror your
drive(s) onto other drives (that are NOT otherwise enabled in the
system). RAID-1 for disk mirroring only provides for hardware recovery
in case the primary hard drive fails. It does NOT provide a backup
function to get you back to where you were before since, obviously, the
mirroring was also occuring when you did the OS migrate. Mirroring is
for hardware disaster recovery, same for RAID-3 and -5, and not for
*BACK*up (as in going back in time). However, you can use disk cloning
software to mirror your production hard drives onto backup hard drives
and then disconnect the backup hard drives or remove them. Remember
that this procedure will use as much space on the backup hard drive as
for the source hard drive. You are cloning the drive. Disk images will
compress the data so its fileset will occupy less space; for example,
your 120 GB hard drive would occupy 120GB on a backup hard drive when
cloned, but maybe only 60 GB are actually inuse on that hard drive so
you could possibly use a program that only clones 60 GB onto the backup
hard drive and yet a disk image which incorporates compression (and
skipping of unused sectors) might only occupy 20 GB on the backup hard
drive, so using disk image software could let you put 6 snapshots on
that backup hard drive instead of just 1 or 2. My 63 GB sized C:
partition has 36 GB used on it and the disk image fileset is only 9 GB
big. That's a pretty big space saving. With a cloned drive, you can
swap it in and immediately be back up to speed. With a disk image, you
get the space savings but it does take longer to restore (it took 1 hour
to create the disk image fileset of 9 GB for the 36 GB used in my 63 GB
C: partition, but the time depends on your hardware's performance).

Since you are using NT Backup and presumably using the ASR wizard in it
to create a full backup for disaster recovery, and since you are backing
up [temporarily] to another hard drive, then disaster recovery (to
restore back to Windows 98) shouldn't be a real big pain. The speed of
the hard drive will help (but I wouldn't use it as the backup media to
archive a permanent or long-lasting snapshot). And be damn sure the
option to VERIFY your backup is enabled (I don't recall if the ASR
wizard asks you or you enable it in the options beforehand or can change
it during the ASR process). Disconnect that backup hard drive during
the OS migrate, and keep it safe from the kids, dogs, visitors, or
anyone else so it doesn't get shocked physically or electrically.

As a caution, yank the Cat-5 cable from your NIC if you are using DSL or
broadband cable for Internet access. Pull the phone cord if you are
using a modem for dial-up. It can take just 20 minutes of being online
to get your host hijacked or infected before you have setup adequate
protection. If Service Pack 2 is slipstreamed into your Windows XP
installation media then the included firewall will be enabled by
default; otherwise, you are susceptible until you get the firewall up or
installed and active and get your anti-virus software installed and
updated. Disconnect, do the OS migrate, ignore or cancel any activation
or updates suggested, get your shields up, and then connect to do the
activation and updates.

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"Jeff W"
wrote in :
thanks but I was talking about XP home
/j

Read http://support.microsoft.com/?id=320820 on how to install NT Backup
on Windows XP Home; there is also a link in that article on how to
install NT Backup. Its install is included by default in an install of
Windows XP Pro. However, note in this article that it says, "If you use
Backup in Windows XP Home Edition, Automated System Recovery (ASR) is
not a supported feature." I'm not quite sure why you are using Windows
XP Home for a *business* computer.

Do NOT save the backup fileset in the same partition that you are
backing up! If you do decide to instead migrate to Windows XP Pro
(instead of Home), also note the help file in NT Backup regarding ASR
says, "Only those system files necessary for starting up your system
will be backed up by this procedure. To backup your data, see 'Backing
up files and folders'." What the ASR does is let you create a backup
that can quickly (depending on the backup media used, of course) get
your OS back up and running again so you can THEN execute a restore of
your data files. Since ASR won't be available under Windows XP Home, a
recovery may incur reinstalling Windows, reinstalling your applications,
and then going through all the full and incremental data backups (i.e.,
pretty much a fresh install).

I can't guarantee how ASR works for a recovery since I much prefer
recoverying using snapshots from disk images (as is quite evident in my
other posts). Once disk imaging software came along, I dumped anything
attempting to use a logical backup for disaster recovery (but I still
like logical backups for data file backup).

Windows XP Comparison Guide
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/h.../choosing2.asp

Which Edition Is Right for You
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/whichxp.asp

Windows XP Home Edition vs. Professional Edition
http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase...p_home_pro.asp

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Thanks VanguardX

1) interested only in disk-to-disk over a network - and I believe
NTbackup support this.

2) Haven't stumbled over EFS yet so probably don't care - what sort of
APP (or O/S usage?) would it show up in?

3) When I said "If a few apps have to be re-installed after the restore
because they are tied to physical disk locations (games often do this),
I'm OK with that." I didn't mean drive letter. Some games record the
physical location on the disk they're installed to to prevent copying
without the CD. (I.e., copying the hard-drive contents to another hard
drive doesn't work). Great explanation of drive-letter manipulation
btw, but I couldn't see the connection to my question - what am I missing?

4a) you say "There's not much point in backing up applications since you
can simply reinstall them again (and apply updates thereafter to get to
the same version as before)." Using my method on WIN98, I had a dead
drive replaced in a matter of hours, less than an hour of my time. That
would take a lot lot longer if I had to reinstall all the apps. So I
don't agree with your statement, FWIW. Why not save EVERYTHING, and
restore EVERYTHING - much faster. (especially as my PCs only have like
3-5GB on them total usage).

4b) I'm happy to make my weekly full backups "disk images". Can you
recommend a cheap program which will do so unattended and compress the
result? However, no offense, but unless I'm missing something, it
still sounds like the 'disk image' approach is more religious than by
proof that logical backups aren't sufficient. (am i missing a point here?)

4c) Don't you get in trouble if your weekly full backups are physical
and your daily incrementals are logical? If you restore the last full,
and then the incrementals over it, but the incrementals are incomplete
(as they must be, otherwise you wouldn't recommend disk image for the
fulls), don't you run the risk of a corrupted system (like, if you
installed apps since the last full so the registry got modified but the
last registry is on the disk image?) Doesn't it make more sense to
either make every backup physical (painful), or make everything
accessible to the logical backup? (painful?)
4d) as far as disks going bad, I bet that two disks (the original, and
the one where the backup is stored) won't go bad at the same time. I
also backup to tape once a month.

5) you're saying a clean install is a preventative measure? With all
the work that MS apparently put into making for clean transitions, it
seems odd to hear they just don't work.. No argument that if I get
imaging software I should run it before the upgrade 8-}

5b) no ASR wizard - upgrading to XP HOME. What does it take to restore
a disk image other than the backup software?

Thanks again - good thoughts
/j

Why am I using XP home for a 'business' computer? I have a few
machines, all used some for business, some for personal. XP Pro comes
with a lot of overhead, and it looks like they tried much harder to make
HOME compatible with WIN98SE, so for ease I'm going with one version,
and Home is more appropriate overall to my situation. Backup sets are
saved to a different PC, btw.

Is ASR the ONLY way to backup my system files? seems really weird that
home users are left out in the cold, or that someone hasn't put together
a piece of shareware to do the same thing...

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 11:05:44 -0400, Jeff W wrote:

thanks but I was talking about XP home

If talking XP Home, I would recommend an imaging program. Take a look at
True Image by Acronis and Image for Windows from Terrabyte Unlimited. I've
tried both. Like them both. Have found them easy to use - creating images
and restoring them. There is a price difference in Image for Windows favor.
It doesn't have as nice of help file as True Image but it is well supported
by their tech support and the site maintains an active user forum. There
are trial versions available for both programs.

Either one of those will give you the convenience factor (and the security
of a full system recovery method) that you're looking for to restore the
system quickly if it goes belly up. I've never used it but judging by posts
in these newsgroups, Ghost (the one that Vanguard has mentioned) is a good
alternative too.

--
Sharon F
MS-MVP ~ Windows XP Shell/User

Thanks Sharon - I am considering imaging programs, but I think I have a
method that works that is nicer as it's the same for full and
incrementals (and it's free)...

environment: NTFS, XP Home.

For backups: Use NTBACKUP (with system state selected) to create weekly
full, and daily incremental backups - each is written over the network
to a file on a different PC.

For restore - (assuming my disk crashed). I go to another PC, install a
new virgin drive as a 2ndary IDE drive, then

1) Format the drive using XP
2) Restore the backed up folders and files using NTBACKUP (including
system state).
3) Boot to the Recovery Console and make the drive bootable by running
fixmbr.
4) Install the drive in the failed machine.
5) boot and celebrate


make sense?
/j




Sharon F wrote:

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 11:05:44 -0400, Jeff W wrote:

thanks but I was talking about XP home

If talking XP Home, I would recommend an imaging program. Take a look at
True Image by Acronis and Image for Windows from Terrabyte Unlimited. I've
tried both. Like them both. Have found them easy to use - creating images
and restoring them. There is a price difference in Image for Windows favor.
It doesn't have as nice of help file as True Image but it is well supported
by their tech support and the site maintains an active user forum. There
are trial versions available for both programs.

Either one of those will give you the convenience factor (and the security
of a full system recovery method) that you're looking for to restore the
system quickly if it goes belly up. I've never used it but judging by posts
in these newsgroups, Ghost (the one that Vanguard has mentioned) is a good
alternative too.

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 22:03:24 -0400, Jeff W wrote:

make sense?
/j

Yes and no.

Yes: On the surface it sounds simple and with Win9x it was.

No: However, it's not as simple with XP. Not only do you have product
activation to work around, you also have XP exerting a tighter level of
control over the system configuration. NT based operating systems are more
stable than their Win9x cousins because of this but it means that we cannot
simply drop an XP drive from one system into another. And it means that we
have to adapt to a different slant for disaster recovery.

You cannot simply sys an XP drive and toss data onto it. It will fail or,
if you're lucky, it will pull through with a repair install. And a repair
install means having to re-apply all subsequent security patches and
service packs.

If you use an imaging program, it will work and with less of a time
investment. With all 3 of the imaging programs that have been mentioned,
you can recover using an image stored on CDs, DVDs, another partition,
another drive or a network drive.

--
Sharon F
MS-MVP ~ Windows XP Shell/User

Hi Sharon - thanks for the response -

First - I'm not against imaging programs - I've heard good things about
Image-for-Windows. However, my concern with them is this - if I need an
imaging program for my full backups, don't I also need imaging for my
incrementals? Is there nothing I could I do "mid-week" to render my
last full image backup out of date?

Also - your response, though similar to others I've seen many places, is
a bit frustating to an old 98/DOS hacker like myself. There's sort of a
religion out there that you can't capture everything by copying just
files and folders. Msoft puts "special stuff" out there on the disk,
outside of the MBR, that can only be captured by a disk image. I'll
accept this more easily if someone could tell me what that information
is. You say "You cannot simply sys an XP drive and toss data onto it."
I have to use an imaging program. Ok, I'l accept this, but must I do so
blindly 8-}

Sorry to be ranting, it's late - I appreciate your answers and help
/j


PS - another mini rant. - What I want (a way to do good, proactive
backups that protect me from a disk crash, without spending a fortune
on 3rd party software), seems like something MICROSOFT would be very
supportive of - yet they apparently don't offer any easy way to do
it???? (sigh)





Sharon F wrote:

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 22:03:24 -0400, Jeff W wrote:

make sense?
/j

Yes and no.

Yes: On the surface it sounds simple and with Win9x it was.

No: However, it's not as simple with XP. Not only do you have product
activation to work around, you also have XP exerting a tighter level of
control over the system configuration. NT based operating systems are more
stable than their Win9x cousins because of this but it means that we cannot
simply drop an XP drive from one system into another. And it means that we
have to adapt to a different slant for disaster recovery.

You cannot simply sys an XP drive and toss data onto it. It will fail or,
if you're lucky, it will pull through with a repair install. And a repair
install means having to re-apply all subsequent security patches and
service packs.

If you use an imaging program, it will work and with less of a time
investment. With all 3 of the imaging programs that have been mentioned,
you can recover using an image stored on CDs, DVDs, another partition,
another drive or a network drive.

"Jeff W"
wrote in :
Why am I using XP home for a 'business' computer? I have a few
machines, all used some for business, some for personal. XP Pro comes
with a lot of overhead, and it looks like they tried much harder to
make HOME compatible with WIN98SE, so for ease I'm going with one
version, and Home is more appropriate overall to my situation.
Backup sets are saved to a different PC, btw.

Is ASR the ONLY way to backup my system files? seems really weird
that home users are left out in the cold, or that someone hasn't put
together a piece of shareware to do the same thing...

(repeat)
The NT Backup included in Windows 2000/XP is, er, was a crippled version
of Veritas' Backup Exec
Desktop. Veritas has since sold off that product to Stomp Inc where it
is now called Backup MyPC. I still have the old v4.6 of Backup Exec
Desktop since the sold-off version seems to have been mostly updated
just to replace the copyright and company info within the program's
files (i.e., no bang for the buck). Besides file and tape support for
backup filesets, I can also use removable media, like CD-R[W].

(in addition)
I haven't checked if Veritas Backup Exec Desktop, now called Backup
MyPC, supports removable external hard drives using USB or firewire.
Once those drives are connected and appear as a drive in Explorer then
they should be just as usable as an IDE drive and you can save the
backup to a file there. The OS is there when you run the program to save
the backups. However, for a disaster recovery, there won't be an OS
there so you will have to repair or install the OS, or boot using an OS
in which the drivers were installed and will get loaded, before you can
do the restores.

http://www.stompsoft.com/backupmypc.html

Their web page is vague about what the procedure is for a disaster
recovery (i.e., when the current instance of the OS is unusable so you
cannot boot into it to then run the program to perform restores). Way
back when I made disaster recovery (DR) backup sets, the process created
a couple of floppies to boot the system, it asked for the Windows
install CD to perform a minimum install of it, rebooted into Windows,
installed a minimum copy of the just the restore utility, ran that
utility, and then restored all files from the DR backup media (which had
to contain a full backup). That meant you needed their bootable floppy
set, a full backup on your backup media, and the Windows install CD. To
me, that was too many different media types (floppy, CD, and tape or
hard drive unless CD was also your backup media), and the time for the
Windows install delayed getting to the actual restores. From what I
read in their manual (http://www.stompsoft.com/pdf/BUMP_UG.pdf, page
42), that's still how it works with some later enhancements, like being
able to use a disk image use for the Windows install that some pre-built
Windows boxes come with.

So, I suppose, you can substitute yourself for the ASR wizard and create
bootable media to then install or repair the OS to then install any
required drivers to support your backup device to then install the
backup program to then do the restores. If the CD drive is bootable,
you can skip creating the bootable floppies as the Windows installation
CD is bootable (unless you have an old PC whose BIOS won't boot from the
CD/DVD drive). Be sure to include the "System State" so the registry
files get included in the full backup that you include in the DR backup
set (hopefully the System State selection is still available when
running under XP Home; http://support.microsoft.com/?id=104169 infers
that shadow copying is also available for XP Home so you should be able
to save the System State). The ASR looks to be simply a wizard that
assists in what you could otherwise create yourself if you had the
expertise. That's what wizards do. XP Home is geared to a market that
rarely does backups and, when they do it, it is usually just data-only
backups, and fewer yet ever create and maintain a DR backup set. When
you ask most Windows XP users (Home or Pro) that use that box at home or
for non-business use about getting their backups to recover, you get
that silent pause, the fixed stare of deer caught in headlights, and
then they stutter, "Backups?" XP Pro is oriented towards business users
accustomed to doing backups and instituting disaster plans (but then
those users often get a better backup utility than what is included in
Windows).

If you are going to use XP Home, be sure your account is in the
Administrators group or you will have to reboot into Safe mode to log
into the Administrator account. NT Backup will skips files to which you
don't have read permission, like those in other users' profile
directories (%userprofile%) if you don't have admin privileges.

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