Windows 8 - a giant step backwards for Micro$oft

Char Jackson wrote:

Can someone please explain why criticism of Win 8's Modern UI
always seems to result in suggestions that restore the Start menu
or Start button? I can't see that the two things have much in
common with one another.

I can only offer my opinion (and I do use Classic Shell and will NOT
run Win8 w/o it!)

First, let me say I think I understand Win8's UI, they're trying to
make ONE OS for PCs, tablets, smart phones and any thing else that
comes along but although they did a pretty good job of it, it's very
clumsy and awkward to use with a mouse. I don't know how it would work
with a touch screen, I don't have a touch screen monitor and my monitor
is mounted too far away for me to touch it nor can it be moved due to
lack of room.....

What the UI and the Start button have in common is that Classic Shell
and other programs that make Win8 more user friendly all bring back a
UI similar to Win2K, WinXP's classic start menu, WinVista's classic
atart menu and Win7's start menu running Classic Shell. It's not the
Start button or Start menu, it's the UI. For me, the Metro UI has to
go or I won't use it, I won't even run Win7 w/o Classic Shell. My OS
will look and feel and work almost exactly like Win2k or I won't use
it.

As always, YMMV.


--
XS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project:
http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/

Char Jackson wrote:

Can someone please explain why criticism of Win 8's Modern UI always seems
to result in suggestions that restore the Start menu or Start button?

Because I don't *ever* want to see the start screen (actually there's
one reconfiguration I occasionally have to use a metro app for, so I see
the start screen then, there might be a different way via the charms
flyout, but that seems an even slower way of getting there.)

On Thu, 11 Jul 2013 22:07:13 -0500, "Char Jackson"
wrote in article ...

On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 19:57:31 +0100, Darklight
wrote:

And to those of you who don't like the metro interface there are plenty
of free or paid app's that will put the start menu back.

Can someone please explain why criticism of Win 8's Modern UI always seems
to result in suggestions that restore the Start menu or Start button? I
can't see that the two things have much in common with one another.

Because if you replace the start screen with a start button and menu,
you've pushed the Modern UI pretty much out of the way and it becomes
tolerable? What else do you want? The start screen and apps *are* the
Modern UI, so once you've made it so that you don't have to play in
that sandbox you are pretty well done, no?

--
Zaphod

Voted "Worst Dressed Sentient Being in the Known Universe" for seven
years in a row.

Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2013 22:07:13 -0500, "Char Jackson"
wrote in article ...
On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 19:57:31 +0100, Darklight
wrote:

And to those of you who don't like the metro interface there are plenty
of free or paid app's that will put the start menu back.
Can someone please explain why criticism of Win 8's Modern UI always seems
to result in suggestions that restore the Start menu or Start button? I
can't see that the two things have much in common with one another.

Because if you replace the start screen with a start button and menu,
you've pushed the Modern UI pretty much out of the way and it becomes
tolerable? What else do you want? The start screen and apps *are* the
Modern UI, so once you've made it so that you don't have to play in
that sandbox you are pretty well done, no?


You have to complete the job, by modifying file associations, so
..pdf no longer takes you to Metro Reader, but to Acrobat Reader or
Foxit or whatever desktop program you want. You can still get thrown
into a Metro app by accident, by file association.

The Start screen is merely a badly designed menu that is as wide
as the screen is. Metro apps are merely badly designed programs
that take up the full screen. Both destroy visual context, and interrupt
your train of thought (the open applications on my desktop, remind
me what I'm doing when I'm multitasking). Resizable graphics elements
were created, so the user would have some control over visual context.

To some extent, the problems on a desktop could be moderated with
a dual LCD screen setup, but I doubt many people go to that much trouble.
Windows 8.1 attempts to fix this, by introducing more screen sharing
options for the two environments, which is still not a complete solution.

And Windows 8 wasn't the start of the degradation. The notion of putting
dialogs, or even launching programs behind the current program window,
is a step backwards in usability, requiring the user to "sweep" the top
application around, to check for a blocking dialog sitting underneath.
A real "feature". What fun.

Paul

On 12 Jul 2013, Paul wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-8:

The Start screen is merely a badly designed menu that is as wide
as the screen is. Metro apps are merely badly designed programs
that take up the full screen. Both destroy visual context, and
interrupt your train of thought (the open applications on my
desktop, remind me what I'm doing when I'm multitasking).
Resizable graphics elements were created, so the user would have
some control over visual context.

This is my problem with the new UI to a tee. The great thing about GUI
OS interfaces like Windows, Mac, and others that have fallen by the
wayside is that you could have a bunch of things going on in their own
visible windows and you could see and interact with them all
simultaneously. Even though DOS and other CLI interfaces could have
multiple tasks running, it was often difficult or inconvenient. The,
suddenly, it was, hey there's my word processor over here and there's
my spreadsheet over there, and let's just copy and paste that into my
email. It's a very good paradigm, and still totally valid. This full-
screen de-evolution only makes sense for tiny screens that you can't
fit much on, like a phone. It seems to me to be antithetical to doing
real work on a large screen.

I know lots of people who STILL don't get the concept of multiple apps
running simultaneously. If, God forbid, their email window is hidden by
their Solitaire game window, they think it's closed and gone. Maybe the
New UI would be just as (un)useful to them as the Classic, but really,
do we all have to get dragged down?

On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 08:38:12 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

Can someone please explain why criticism of Win 8's Modern UI always seems
to result in suggestions that restore the Start menu or Start button?

Because I don't *ever* want to see the start screen snip

I don't *ever* want to see the Modern UI either, but programs like
ClassicShell don't provide that capability. I wish it did.

For people who look at Win 8 and want the Start button & menu back, they
have programs like ClassicShell or Start8, but for people who look at Win 8
and want to be rid of the Modern UI, there are no available options.

On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 08:04:09 -0400, Zaphod Beeblebrox
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Jul 2013 22:07:13 -0500, "Char Jackson"
wrote in article ...

On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 19:57:31 +0100, Darklight
wrote:

And to those of you who don't like the metro interface there are plenty
of free or paid app's that will put the start menu back.

Can someone please explain why criticism of Win 8's Modern UI always seems
to result in suggestions that restore the Start menu or Start button? I
can't see that the two things have much in common with one another.

Because if you replace the start screen with a start button and menu,
you've pushed the Modern UI pretty much out of the way and it becomes
tolerable?

No, the Modern UI is still there, making itself the center of attention
multiple times a day and usually at the worst possible times. Putting a
start button and menu back into place doesn't do anything to disable the
Modern UI. That's why I find it confusing that people make a connection
where one doesn't exist.

What else do you want?

Ideally, I would love a solution that disables the Modern UI.

The start screen and apps *are* the
Modern UI, so once you've made it so that you don't have to play in
that sandbox you are pretty well done, no?

I'm still looking for a solution that makes it so that I don't have to play
in the Modern UI sandbox. ClassicShell doesn't do it. I haven't tried
Start8, but their website makes no claims about being able to do it, so I
tend to believe them. If there's something else, I haven't seen it
mentioned.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 22:32:03 -0500, "Char Jackson"
wrote in article ...

On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 08:04:09 -0400, Zaphod Beeblebrox
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Jul 2013 22:07:13 -0500, "Char Jackson"
wrote in article ...

On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 19:57:31 +0100, Darklight
wrote:

And to those of you who don't like the metro interface there are plenty
of free or paid app's that will put the start menu back.

Can someone please explain why criticism of Win 8's Modern UI always seems
to result in suggestions that restore the Start menu or Start button? I
can't see that the two things have much in common with one another.

Because if you replace the start screen with a start button and menu,
you've pushed the Modern UI pretty much out of the way and it becomes
tolerable?

No, the Modern UI is still there, making itself the center of attention
multiple times a day and usually at the worst possible times. Putting a
start button and menu back into place doesn't do anything to disable the
Modern UI. That's why I find it confusing that people make a connection
where one doesn't exist.

What else do you want?

Ideally, I would love a solution that disables the Modern UI.

The start screen and apps *are* the
Modern UI, so once you've made it so that you don't have to play in
that sandbox you are pretty well done, no?

I'm still looking for a solution that makes it so that I don't have to play
in the Modern UI sandbox. ClassicShell doesn't do it. I haven't tried
Start8, but their website makes no claims about being able to do it, so I
tend to believe them. If there's something else, I haven't seen it
mentioned.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by the "Modern UI". Through
edits to the file associations and the previously mentioned approaches
to restore the start button and menu and boot directly to the desktop I
don't see anything I'd categorize as such. No start screen, no apps,
nothing but desktop and the programs I choose.

--
Zaphod

"Yeah. Listen, I'm Zaphod Beeblebrox, my father was Zaphod Beeblebrox
the Second, my grandfather Zaphod Beeblebrox the Third..."

"What?"

"There was an accident with a contraceptive and a time machine. Now
concentrate!"

Per Char Jackson:
I don't *ever* want to see the Modern UI either, but programs like
ClassicShell don't provide that capability. I wish it did.

For people who look at Win 8 and want the Start button & menu back, they
have programs like ClassicShell or Start8, but for people who look at Win 8
and want to be rid of the Modern UI, there are no available options.

Just gob back from a trip to the local computer store - where they had a
few boxes with what I guess was 8.1.

I was able to get to a Windows Desktop in a single click or keystroke.

For me, that's enough. I create a folder on the desktop called "$Home"
and put shortcuts to frequently-and-not-so-frequently used apps in
there. Boot == Windows Desktop == Open $Home, and I'm "Home".....
from there I can launch any app I want with the convenience of automagic
keystroke alphabetic search positioning me at or near the app's
shortcut.

*Really* frequently-used apps get a shortcut icon right on the desktop.

Works for me.
--
Pete Cresswell

Per Char Jackson:
Ideally, I would love a solution that disables the Modern UI.

+1
--
Pete Cresswell

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 12:45:37 -0400, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

Per Char Jackson:
I don't *ever* want to see the Modern UI either, but programs like
ClassicShell don't provide that capability. I wish it did.

For people who look at Win 8 and want the Start button & menu back, they
have programs like ClassicShell or Start8, but for people who look at Win 8
and want to be rid of the Modern UI, there are no available options.

Just gob back from a trip to the local computer store - where they had a
few boxes with what I guess was 8.1.

I was able to get to a Windows Desktop in a single click or keystroke.

For me, that's enough. I create a folder on the desktop called "$Home"
and put shortcuts to frequently-and-not-so-frequently used apps in
there. Boot == Windows Desktop == Open $Home, and I'm "Home".....
from there I can launch any app I want with the convenience of automagic
keystroke alphabetic search positioning me at or near the app's
shortcut.

*Really* frequently-used apps get a shortcut icon right on the desktop.

Works for me.

Yeah, but that means you are guilty of being adaptable :-)

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 07:29:18 -0400, Zaphod Beeblebrox
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 22:32:03 -0500, "Char Jackson"
wrote in article ...

On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 08:04:09 -0400, Zaphod Beeblebrox
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Jul 2013 22:07:13 -0500, "Char Jackson"
wrote in article ...

On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 19:57:31 +0100, Darklight
wrote:

And to those of you who don't like the metro interface there are plenty
of free or paid app's that will put the start menu back.

Can someone please explain why criticism of Win 8's Modern UI always seems
to result in suggestions that restore the Start menu or Start button? I
can't see that the two things have much in common with one another.

Because if you replace the start screen with a start button and menu,
you've pushed the Modern UI pretty much out of the way and it becomes
tolerable?

No, the Modern UI is still there, making itself the center of attention
multiple times a day and usually at the worst possible times. Putting a
start button and menu back into place doesn't do anything to disable the
Modern UI. That's why I find it confusing that people make a connection
where one doesn't exist.

What else do you want?

Ideally, I would love a solution that disables the Modern UI.

The start screen and apps *are* the
Modern UI, so once you've made it so that you don't have to play in
that sandbox you are pretty well done, no?

I'm still looking for a solution that makes it so that I don't have to play
in the Modern UI sandbox. ClassicShell doesn't do it. I haven't tried
Start8, but their website makes no claims about being able to do it, so I
tend to believe them. If there's something else, I haven't seen it
mentioned.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by the "Modern UI". Through
edits to the file associations and the previously mentioned approaches
to restore the start button and menu and boot directly to the desktop I
don't see anything I'd categorize as such. No start screen, no apps,
nothing but desktop and the programs I choose.

Very cool. I haven't been able to achieve the same thing, and the good lord
knows I've tried and continue to try. It's a modern version of whack-a-mole.
Every time I think I've got everything licked, up pops something else. The
charms bar is particularly pesky, for example.

"Gene E. Bloch" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 12:45:37 -0400, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

For me, that's enough. I create a folder on the desktop called "$Home"
and put shortcuts to frequently-and-not-so-frequently used apps in
there. Boot == Windows Desktop == Open $Home, and I'm "Home".....
from there I can launch any app I want with the convenience of automagic
keystroke alphabetic search positioning me at or near the app's
shortcut.

*Really* frequently-used apps get a shortcut icon right on the desktop.

Yeah, but that means you are guilty of being adaptable :-)

For my use (or adaptation)
- it seems a lot better (than adding a folder to the desktop) to enable the
Quick Launch Tool Bar and move it to the left side of the Taskbar. Use of
the QLTB provides the ability to rearrange its (added) items. Then just drag
the slider/resizer on the QLTB so that only one item shows thereby allowing
a lower left single click popup menu of any program shortcut (and in a user
decided order).

--
....winston
msft mvp consumer apps

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 19:38:24 -0500, "Char Jackson"
wrote in article ...

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 07:29:18 -0400, Zaphod Beeblebrox
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 22:32:03 -0500, "Char Jackson"
wrote in article ...

On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 08:04:09 -0400, Zaphod Beeblebrox
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Jul 2013 22:07:13 -0500, "Char Jackson"
wrote in article ...

On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 19:57:31 +0100, Darklight
wrote:

And to those of you who don't like the metro interface there are plenty
of free or paid app's that will put the start menu back.

Can someone please explain why criticism of Win 8's Modern UI always seems
to result in suggestions that restore the Start menu or Start button? I
can't see that the two things have much in common with one another.

Because if you replace the start screen with a start button and menu,
you've pushed the Modern UI pretty much out of the way and it becomes
tolerable?

No, the Modern UI is still there, making itself the center of attention
multiple times a day and usually at the worst possible times. Putting a
start button and menu back into place doesn't do anything to disable the
Modern UI. That's why I find it confusing that people make a connection
where one doesn't exist.

What else do you want?

Ideally, I would love a solution that disables the Modern UI.

The start screen and apps *are* the
Modern UI, so once you've made it so that you don't have to play in
that sandbox you are pretty well done, no?

I'm still looking for a solution that makes it so that I don't have to play
in the Modern UI sandbox. ClassicShell doesn't do it. I haven't tried
Start8, but their website makes no claims about being able to do it, so I
tend to believe them. If there's something else, I haven't seen it
mentioned.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by the "Modern UI". Through
edits to the file associations and the previously mentioned approaches
to restore the start button and menu and boot directly to the desktop I
don't see anything I'd categorize as such. No start screen, no apps,
nothing but desktop and the programs I choose.

Very cool. I haven't been able to achieve the same thing, and the good lord
knows I've tried and continue to try. It's a modern version of whack-a-mole.
Every time I think I've got everything licked, up pops something else. The
charms bar is particularly pesky, for example.

Charms bar doesn't bother me - it is still there but I rarely, if ever,
invoke it accidentally so for me it isn't an issue. For me, the whack-
a-mole are file associations. It took some time but I may have finally
swatted the last of them - at least for the file types I currently tend
to use...

--
Zaphod

Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster: A cocktail based on Janx Spirit.
The effect of one is like having your brain smashed out
by a slice of lemon wrapped round a large gold brick.

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:00:53 -0400, Zaphod Beeblebrox
wrote:

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 19:38:24 -0500, "Char Jackson"
wrote in article ...

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 07:29:18 -0400, Zaphod Beeblebrox
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 22:32:03 -0500, "Char Jackson"
wrote in article ...

On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 08:04:09 -0400, Zaphod Beeblebrox
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Jul 2013 22:07:13 -0500, "Char Jackson"
wrote in article ...

On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 19:57:31 +0100, Darklight
wrote:

And to those of you who don't like the metro interface there are plenty
of free or paid app's that will put the start menu back.

Can someone please explain why criticism of Win 8's Modern UI always seems
to result in suggestions that restore the Start menu or Start button? I
can't see that the two things have much in common with one another.

Because if you replace the start screen with a start button and menu,
you've pushed the Modern UI pretty much out of the way and it becomes
tolerable?

No, the Modern UI is still there, making itself the center of attention
multiple times a day and usually at the worst possible times. Putting a
start button and menu back into place doesn't do anything to disable the
Modern UI. That's why I find it confusing that people make a connection
where one doesn't exist.

What else do you want?

Ideally, I would love a solution that disables the Modern UI.

The start screen and apps *are* the
Modern UI, so once you've made it so that you don't have to play in
that sandbox you are pretty well done, no?

I'm still looking for a solution that makes it so that I don't have to play
in the Modern UI sandbox. ClassicShell doesn't do it. I haven't tried
Start8, but their website makes no claims about being able to do it, so I
tend to believe them. If there's something else, I haven't seen it
mentioned.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by the "Modern UI". Through
edits to the file associations and the previously mentioned approaches
to restore the start button and menu and boot directly to the desktop I
don't see anything I'd categorize as such. No start screen, no apps,
nothing but desktop and the programs I choose.

Very cool. I haven't been able to achieve the same thing, and the good lord
knows I've tried and continue to try. It's a modern version of whack-a-mole.
Every time I think I've got everything licked, up pops something else. The
charms bar is particularly pesky, for example.

Charms bar doesn't bother me - it is still there but I rarely, if ever,
invoke it accidentally so for me it isn't an issue. For me, the whack-
a-mole are file associations. It took some time but I may have finally
swatted the last of them - at least for the file types I currently tend
to use...

I run nearly everything maximized, so every program's vertical scroll bar is
a whisker away from invoking the charms bar. As a result, I see it a dozen
times on a good day and triple that if I'm not careful.