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#31
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Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers?
On 26/07/2020 16:38, Wolffan wrote:
On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0oc9vhsewdg98l@glass): On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:40:34 +0100, wrote: On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0oc80rgowdg98l@glass): On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:41:40 +0100, wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0ob3ngs7wdg98l@glass): On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:08:09 +0100, wrote: On 25/07/2020 23:01, Wolffan wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0obycr1swdg98l@glass): On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 21:52:31 +0100, wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0oboc2f2wdg98l@glass): Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally, then the second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the cooling, no, you won’t. if it conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to the type with the fan on the side. there are numerous sites out there which cover this; I first encountered this idea in 2001. (Yes, 2001. Not a typo. And it wasn’t a new idea then, it was just new to me.) It turns out that doubling the fans gives from -5% (that’s _negative_ five percent, it can make things worse) to +65% airflow, depending on numerous factors. (Size of fan, are the fans spinning in the same direction or in opposite directions, fan speed, how fans are placed relative to the heat exchanger, space inside the computer’s case, location of CPU relative to sides of computer case, location of other items including hard drives, RAM, power supplies, video and/or sound cards, type of case especially with respect to vents, internal cabling, more.) However, airflow and cooling do not necessarily scale together. Merely increasing the airflow does not necessarily do much for the cooling, for that you need heat exchangers attached to the CPU, heat exchangers attached to another heat exchanger don’t do much, and airflow is a square effect while heat exchangers are a cube effect. Airflow maxed out at around +65% for two fans; cooling maxed out at about +45%. And it took considerable effort to get that +45%, most systems were considerably lower than that. There would be a _reason_ why liquid cooling is popular. It’s actually simpler and easier to do. Most modern CPUs generate a whole lot less heat than CPUs dating from 2001 did, so a good way to get a cooler-running system is toi use a newer CPU. And to stay way from the heat-producing monsters, notably IBM Power CPUs, which have improved no end since then but which are still devices to convert electricity into heat, something anyone who ever went near a G5- or a G4- powered Mac could tell you. (One G4 Mac was called the Windtunnel because of the noise level from the fans to keep the CPU cool; one G5 Mac shipped with liquid cooling because Apple didn’t want to ship Windtunnel Mk 2...) IBM is up to Power 8 or 9 or some such now, where G5s were Power 5s, and they’re much better behaved, but still... Doubling the size of the heatsink (and also the number of fans, which won't blow towards each other) must make a considerable difference. It will be twice the cooling effect, minus the lack of conduction through the first heatsink, which I assume will conduct well, being metal and all that. You’re not going to get anywhere close to double the cooling. Instead of kludging together two fans, just buy one of the properly-designed dual fan units out there. (which don’t get twice the cooling of similar single-fan designs from the same company, pros can’t get double the cooling either. Not even close. Look at the specs for yourself.) Or, if you’re serious about cooling, use liquid cooling. What you _will_ get with a dual-fan system is twice the noise. Especially if you use small-diameter fans. Why are you talking down to a Computer Science graduate, Wolffan? Apple *FAN* BOISE have no experience of such matters. :-P You are way out of your league here. Are you not an Apple fan (can't call you a boy at your age) yourself? he’s an idiot. Apart from believing in god and using Apples, no he isn't. He's just down the road from me (well 500 miles). He attempted to post authoritatively about IPs, when he not merely didn’t know the difference between IPv4 and IPv6, he _thought that x.x.x.x was a valid IP address_. Yes, really. He’s an idiot. I was trying to have a bit of fun with you. I admit I 'stuffed up' but Usenet is unforgiving - I couldn't changed what had been posted. I most certainly did NOT :run away". I guess using Apples he never encounters IPs. All the important stuff is hidden from you on the mickey mouse machines. You makes I larf Commander! ;-) (Said with a Devonian accent!) Nope. Ips are quite visible in the Network pane of System Preferences. There are panes for setting your IPv4 and v6 addresses, for DNS, proxies, 802.1X, even for playing with the MAC. Ethernet has one set of panes, 802.11 wireless another, there are others for other types of network connections. He’s sufficiently idiotic and pig-ignorant that he he’d bother to go to his Apple menu, select System Preferences, click on Networks, click on the network connection of his choice, and have a look. And, when his idiocy was pointed out to him, he denied it, and when evidence of his idiocy was provided (a MID and a quote from his post, IIRC) he ran away. Nor is this the only example of his idiocy, just an example easily shown. Most good news clients have a built-in search engine; in the Hog, I can search for and find any string in any post on any newsgroup in my system list. Finding ‘x.x.x.x’ in a.c.w, or any other newsgroup, is trivial. I don’t know if your client has similar abilities. He has perpetuated many idiocies over a prolonged period. He’s an idiot. No, Wolffan - but I'm well known to be a bit of a Jester! ;-) |
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#32
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Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers?
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 17:01:44 +0100, Peter Johnson wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 19:01:34 +0100, "Commander Kinsey" wrote: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally, then the second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the cooling, if it conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to the type with the fan on the side. I have a Noctua NH-D15 - https://noctua.at/en/nh-d15 - which sort of addresses your question by putting two fans on one cooler. It sits on an AMD Ryzen 5 3600. I have resistors in cicuit to slow the fans and both the case fans are slowed, too. The NVIDIA Quadro P2000 video card has a tiny fan on it. The PSU is fanless. The whole lot makes hardly any noise. Much quieter than when I had two fanless graphics cards in before I got the P2000. I'm not convinced on those two fans. How much hotter does it get if you turn one off? A single fan passes a certain amount of air. That same amount of air goes through the second fan. I can't see it increasing the flow by much. |
#33
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Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers?
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 16:38:33 +0100, Wolffan wrote:
On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0oc9vhsewdg98l@glass): On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:40:34 +0100, wrote: On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0oc80rgowdg98l@glass): On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:41:40 +0100, wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0ob3ngs7wdg98l@glass): On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:08:09 +0100, wrote: On 25/07/2020 23:01, Wolffan wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0obycr1swdg98l@glass): On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 21:52:31 +0100, wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0oboc2f2wdg98l@glass): Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally, then the second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the cooling, no, you won’t. if it conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to the type with the fan on the side. there are numerous sites out there which cover this; I first encountered this idea in 2001. (Yes, 2001. Not a typo. And it wasn’t a new idea then, it was just new to me.) It turns out that doubling the fans gives from -5% (that’s _negative_ five percent, it can make things worse) to +65% airflow, depending on numerous factors. (Size of fan, are the fans spinning in the same direction or in opposite directions, fan speed, how fans are placed relative to the heat exchanger, space inside the computer’s case, location of CPU relative to sides of computer case, location of other items including hard drives, RAM, power supplies, video and/or sound cards, type of case especially with respect to vents, internal cabling, more.) However, airflow and cooling do not necessarily scale together. Merely increasing the airflow does not necessarily do much for the cooling, for that you need heat exchangers attached to the CPU, heat exchangers attached to another heat exchanger don’t do much, and airflow is a square effect while heat exchangers are a cube effect. Airflow maxed out at around +65% for two fans; cooling maxed out at about +45%. And it took considerable effort to get that +45%, most systems were considerably lower than that. There would be a _reason_ why liquid cooling is popular. It’s actually simpler and easier to do. Most modern CPUs generate a whole lot less heat than CPUs dating from 2001 did, so a good way to get a cooler-running system is toi use a newer CPU. And to stay way from the heat-producing monsters, notably IBM Power CPUs, which have improved no end since then but which are still devices to convert electricity into heat, something anyone who ever went near a G5- or a G4- powered Mac could tell you. (One G4 Mac was called the Windtunnel because of the noise level from the fans to keep the CPU cool; one G5 Mac shipped with liquid cooling because Apple didn’t want to ship Windtunnel Mk 2...) IBM is up to Power 8 or 9 or some such now, where G5s were Power 5s, and they’re much better behaved, but still... Doubling the size of the heatsink (and also the number of fans, which won't blow towards each other) must make a considerable difference. It will be twice the cooling effect, minus the lack of conduction through the first heatsink, which I assume will conduct well, being metal and all that. You’re not going to get anywhere close to double the cooling. Instead of kludging together two fans, just buy one of the properly-designed dual fan units out there. (which don’t get twice the cooling of similar single-fan designs from the same company, pros can’t get double the cooling either. Not even close. Look at the specs for yourself.) Or, if you’re serious about cooling, use liquid cooling. What you _will_ get with a dual-fan system is twice the noise. Especially if you use small-diameter fans. Why are you talking down to a Computer Science graduate, Wolffan? Apple *FAN* BOISE have no experience of such matters. :-P You are way out of your league here. Are you not an Apple fan (can't call you a boy at your age) yourself? he’s an idiot. Apart from believing in god and using Apples, no he isn't. He's just down the road from me (well 500 miles). He attempted to post authoritatively about IPs, when he not merely didn’t know the difference between IPv4 and IPv6, he _thought that x.x.x.x was a valid IP address_. Yes, really. He’s an idiot. I guess using Apples he never encounters IPs. All the important stuff is hidden from you on the mickey mouse machines. Nope. Ips are quite visible in the Network pane of System Preferences. There are panes for setting your IPv4 and v6 addresses, for DNS, proxies, 802.1X, even for playing with the MAC. Ethernet has one set of panes, 802.11 wireless another, there are others for other types of network connections. He’s sufficiently idiotic and pig-ignorant that he he’d bother to go to his Apple menu, select System Preferences, click on Networks, click on the network connection of his choice, and have a look. And, when his idiocy was pointed out to him, he denied it, and when evidence of his idiocy was provided (a MID and a quote from his post, IIRC) he ran away. Nor is this the only example of his idiocy, just an example easily shown. Most good news clients have a built-in search engine; in the Hog, I can search for and find any string in any post on any newsgroup in my system list. Finding ‘x.x.x.x’ in a.c.w, or any other newsgroup, is trivial.. I don’t know if your client has similar abilities. He has perpetuated many idiocies over a prolonged period. He’s an idiot. And so are you for taking so much time proving he's wrong. Get a hobby. |
#34
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Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers?
On 7/26/20 7:35 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote: On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:57:30 +0100, Snit wrote: On 7/25/20 4:17 PM, David_B wrote: On 25/07/2020 23:47, Commander Kinsey wrote: On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:33:54 +0100, Paul wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally, then the second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the cooling, if it conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to the type with the fan on the side. Call me, when your solution uses heatpipes. It does.* Two coolers, each with their own 4 heatpipes. SNIP FOR BREVITY ONLY In my opinion, Commander, you are now talking to one of the most intelligent and experienced Usenet advisers. Be nice - and heed what he tells you! :-D I had started a reply to note that, no, you would not get twice the cooling -- but my response would have been FAR less detailed and knowledgeable. I said close to twice the cooling. We can quibble over the meaning of "Theoretically, you have twice the cooling", but my first thought was you would not likely get close... BUT the main point here is I would not have been NEARLY as detailed or knowledgeable as what we saw in the other reply. Nowhere close. I would not have really even been able to defend my view -- just was based on my gut feeling and very basic understanding, hence why I did not post it. Glad someone else with far more knowledge jumped in. -- Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger. They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again. |
#35
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Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers?
Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 02:45:51 +0100, Paul wrote: Rene Lamontagne wrote: On 2020-07-25 5:33 p.m., Paul wrote: https://www.quietpc.com/tnn500af That case sure has a lot of good engineering put into it, I can see why it has casters, it weighs about 70 lbs, I looked around a bit but couldn't find a price on it yet. It will be great for audio and such purposes. I'm not in need of one because one of the perks of old age is a much reduced sound perception (what did you say). :-) Rene That case was $1000, and was a popular item in audio recording studios. Just had a quick look, how on earth do you affix the coolers to the CPU, GPU, etc? Heatpipes aren't flexible. And even worse if the CPU or GPU isn't in the place the case designer thought it would be. At this late date, you'd have to find a review where they did the install. Then you would be able to see why it works. For the video card, there's probably a block to be fitted, and RAMsinks for the memory. That sort of thing. Paul |
#36
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Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers?
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 18:22:11 +0100, Snit wrote:
On 7/26/20 7:35 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote: On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:57:30 +0100, Snit wrote: On 7/25/20 4:17 PM, David_B wrote: On 25/07/2020 23:47, Commander Kinsey wrote: On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:33:54 +0100, Paul wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally, then the second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the cooling, if it conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to the type with the fan on the side. Call me, when your solution uses heatpipes. It does. Two coolers, each with their own 4 heatpipes. SNIP FOR BREVITY ONLY In my opinion, Commander, you are now talking to one of the most intelligent and experienced Usenet advisers. Be nice - and heed what he tells you! :-D I had started a reply to note that, no, you would not get twice the cooling -- but my response would have been FAR less detailed and knowledgeable. I said close to twice the cooling. We can quibble over the meaning of "Theoretically, you have twice the cooling", There's nothing to quibble about. It means "you would have twice, except for the reasons listed thus...." For example, "Theoretically, John can run twice as fast as Chris, but since he dozes off after 10 minutes, he's ineffective in a race." |
#37
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Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers?
On 7/26/20 11:44 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 18:22:11 +0100, Snit wrote: On 7/26/20 7:35 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote: On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:57:30 +0100, Snit wrote: On 7/25/20 4:17 PM, David_B wrote: On 25/07/2020 23:47, Commander Kinsey wrote: On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:33:54 +0100, Paul wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally, then the second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the cooling, if it conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to the type with the fan on the side. Call me, when your solution uses heatpipes. It does.* Two coolers, each with their own 4 heatpipes. SNIP FOR BREVITY ONLY In my opinion, Commander, you are now talking to one of the most intelligent and experienced Usenet advisers. Be nice - and heed what he tells you! :-D I had started a reply to note that, no, you would not get twice the cooling -- but my response would have been FAR less detailed and knowledgeable. I said close to twice the cooling. We can quibble over the meaning of "Theoretically, you have twice the cooling", There's nothing to quibble about.* It means "you would have twice, except for the reasons listed thus...." For example, "Theoretically, John can run twice as fast as Chris, but since he dozes off after 10 minutes, he's ineffective in a race." OK. But still my main point was I am happy someone else came in with much better info than I had to offer. -- Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger. They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again. |
#38
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Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers?
On 26/07/2020 16.34, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 12:27:38 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote: On 26/07/2020 00.47, Commander Kinsey wrote: On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:33:54 +0100, Paul wrote: .... This is why we buy a larger heatsink, like a Noctua. Instead of impishly welding stuff together, the heatpipes on the properly-designed unit, have been selected for the perfect location to get the best effect. While the unit may be designed with two fans, it works quite well with only the central fan fitted. Heatpipes have non-linear behavior. If you pump too much heat into them, the liquid-vapor phase transfer stops because all the materials remain in the vapor phase. The manufacturer will usually suggest a max power as a practical limit (before the pipes saturate and the degree-of-cooling ends up actually reduced). If you put six pipes in parallel, as soon as one pipe saturates, the other five carry the load and then they drop in quick succession. What temperature should the CPU be for optimal heatpipe cooling? In theory, a heatsink is designed to work best with a certain cpu. Strange, all the ones I've seen advertised are for any CPU in multiple types of socket.* There must be an optimal temperature that heatpipes work at. No, heat pipes work best at certain design temperature, depending on the boliling point of the fluid. And the temperature specs changes on each CPU family. Too hot, and all the fluid is gas: bad transfer. Too cold, and all the fluid is liquid: bad transfer. -- Cheers, Carlos. |
#39
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Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers?
On 26 Jul 2020, David_B wrote
(in article ): On 26/07/2020 16:38, Wolffan wrote: On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0oc9vhsewdg98l@glass): On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:40:34 +0100, wrote: On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0oc80rgowdg98l@glass): On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:41:40 +0100, wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0ob3ngs7wdg98l@glass): On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:08:09 +0100, wrote: On 25/07/2020 23:01, Wolffan wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0obycr1swdg98l@glass): On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 21:52:31 +0100, wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0oboc2f2wdg98l@glass): Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally, then the second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the cooling, no, you won’t. if it conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to the type with the fan on the side. there are numerous sites out there which cover this; I first encountered this idea in 2001. (Yes, 2001. Not a typo. And it wasn’t a new idea then, it was just new to me.) It turns out that doubling the fans gives from -5% (that’s _negative_ five percent, it can make things worse) to +65% airflow, depending on numerous factors. (Size of fan, are the fans spinning in the same direction or in opposite directions, fan speed, how fans are placed relative to the heat exchanger, space inside the computer’s case, location of CPU relative to sides of computer case, location of other items including hard drives, RAM, power supplies, video and/or sound cards, type of case especially with respect to vents, internal cabling, more.) However, airflow and cooling do not necessarily scale together. Merely increasing the airflow does not necessarily do much for the cooling, for that you need heat exchangers attached to the CPU, heat exchangers attached to another heat exchanger don’t do much, and airflow is a square effect while heat exchangers are a cube effect. Airflow maxed out at around +65% for two fans; cooling maxed out at about +45%. And it took considerable effort to get that +45%, most systems were considerably lower than that. There would be a _reason_ why liquid cooling is popular. It’s actually simpler and easier to do. Most modern CPUs generate a whole lot less heat than CPUs dating from 2001 did, so a good way to get a cooler-running system is toi use a newer CPU. And to stay way from the heat-producing monsters, notably IBM Power CPUs, which have improved no end since then but which are still devices to convert electricity into heat, something anyone who ever went near a G5- or a G4- powered Mac could tell you. (One G4 Mac was called the Windtunnel because of the noise level from the fans to keep the CPU cool; one G5 Mac shipped with liquid cooling because Apple didn’t want to ship Windtunnel Mk 2...) IBM is up to Power 8 or 9 or some such now, where G5s were Power 5s, and they’re much better behaved, but still... Doubling the size of the heatsink (and also the number of fans, which won't blow towards each other) must make a considerable difference. It will be twice the cooling effect, minus the lack of conduction through the first heatsink, which I assume will conduct well, being metal and all that. You’re not going to get anywhere close to double the cooling. Instead of kludging together two fans, just buy one of the properly-designed dual fan units out there. (which don’t get twice the cooling of similar single-fan designs from the same company, pros can’t get double the cooling either. Not even close. Look at the specs for yourself.) Or, if you’re serious about cooling, use liquid cooling. What you _will_ get with a dual-fan system is twice the noise. Especially if you use small-diameter fans. Why are you talking down to a Computer Science graduate, Wolffan? Apple *FAN* BOISE have no experience of such matters. :-P You are way out of your league here. Are you not an Apple fan (can't call you a boy at your age) yourself? he’s an idiot. Apart from believing in god and using Apples, no he isn't. He's just down the road from me (well 500 miles). He attempted to post authoritatively about IPs, when he not merely didn’t know the difference between IPv4 and IPv6, he _thought that x.x.x.x was a valid IP address_. Yes, really. He’s an idiot. I was trying to have a bit of fun with you. I admit I 'stuffed up' but Usenet is unforgiving - I couldn't changed what had been posted. I most certainly did NOT :run away". I guess using Apples he never encounters IPs. All the important stuff is hidden from you on the mickey mouse machines. You makes I larf Commander! ;-) (Said with a Devonian accent!) Nope. Ips are quite visible in the Network pane of System Preferences. There are panes for setting your IPv4 and v6 addresses, for DNS, proxies, 802.1X, even for playing with the MAC. Ethernet has one set of panes, 802.11 wireless another, there are others for other types of network connections. He’s sufficiently idiotic and pig-ignorant that he he’d bother to go to his Apple menu, select System Preferences, click on Networks, click on the network connection of his choice, and have a look. And, when his idiocy was pointed out to him, he denied it, and when evidence of his idiocy was provided (a MID and a quote from his post, IIRC) he ran away. Nor is this the only example of his idiocy, just an example easily shown. Most good news clients have a built-in search engine; in the Hog, I can search for and find any string in any post on any newsgroup in my system list. Finding ‘x.x.x.x’ in a.c.w, or any other newsgroup, is trivial. I don’t know if your client has similar abilities. He has perpetuated many idiocies over a prolonged period. He’s an idiot. No, Wolffan - but I'm well known to be a bit of a Jester! ;-) and there’s the other defence: the “I was only joking” defence. You’re an idiot. And a liar. And a troll. And a stalker. And a filicide. Other than thaose, you’re a peach of a fellow... or maybe not. |
#40
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Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers?
On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
(in article op.0odggwqpwdg98l@glass): On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 16:38:33 +0100, wrote: On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0oc9vhsewdg98l@glass): On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:40:34 +0100, wrote: On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0oc80rgowdg98l@glass): On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:41:40 +0100, wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0ob3ngs7wdg98l@glass): On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:08:09 +0100, wrote: On 25/07/2020 23:01, Wolffan wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0obycr1swdg98l@glass): On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 21:52:31 +0100, wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0oboc2f2wdg98l@glass): Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally, then the second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the cooling, no, you won’t. if it conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to the type with the fan on the side. there are numerous sites out there which cover this; I first encountered this idea in 2001. (Yes, 2001. Not a typo. And it wasn’t a new idea then, it was just new to me.) It turns out that doubling the fans gives from -5% (that’s _negative_ five percent, it can make things worse) to +65% airflow, depending on numerous factors. (Size of fan, are the fans spinning in the same direction or in opposite directions, fan speed, how fans are placed relative to the heat exchanger, space inside the computer’s case, location of CPU relative to sides of computer case, location of other items including hard drives, RAM, power supplies, video and/or sound cards, type of case especially with respect to vents, internal cabling, more.) However, airflow and cooling do not necessarily scale together. Merely increasing the airflow does not necessarily do much for the cooling, for that you need heat exchangers attached to the CPU, heat exchangers attached to another heat exchanger don’t do much, and airflow is a square effect while heat exchangers are a cube effect. Airflow maxed out at around +65% for two fans; cooling maxed out at about +45%. And it took considerable effort to get that +45%, most systems were considerably lower than that. There would be a _reason_ why liquid cooling is popular. It’s actually simpler and easier to do. Most modern CPUs generate a whole lot less heat than CPUs dating from 2001 did, so a good way to get a cooler-running system is toi use a newer CPU. And to stay way from the heat-producing monsters, notably IBM Power CPUs, which have improved no end since then but which are still devices to convert electricity into heat, something anyone who ever went near a G5- or a G4- powered Mac could tell you. (One G4 Mac was called the Windtunnel because of the noise level from the fans to keep the CPU cool; one G5 Mac shipped with liquid cooling because Apple didn’t want to ship Windtunnel Mk 2...) IBM is up to Power 8 or 9 or some such now, where G5s were Power 5s, and they’re much better behaved, but still... Doubling the size of the heatsink (and also the number of fans, which won't blow towards each other) must make a considerable difference. It will be twice the cooling effect, minus the lack of conduction through the first heatsink, which I assume will conduct well, being metal and all that. You’re not going to get anywhere close to double the cooling. Instead of kludging together two fans, just buy one of the properly-designed dual fan units out there. (which don’t get twice the cooling of similar single-fan designs from the same company, pros can’t get double the cooling either. Not even close. Look at the specs for yourself.) Or, if you’re serious about cooling, use liquid cooling. What you _will_ get with a dual-fan system is twice the noise. Especially if you use small-diameter fans. Why are you talking down to a Computer Science graduate, Wolffan? Apple *FAN* BOISE have no experience of such matters. :-P You are way out of your league here. Are you not an Apple fan (can't call you a boy at your age) yourself? he’s an idiot. Apart from believing in god and using Apples, no he isn't. He's just down the road from me (well 500 miles). He attempted to post authoritatively about IPs, when he not merely didn’t know the difference between IPv4 and IPv6, he _thought that x.x.x.x was a valid IP address_. Yes, really. He’s an idiot. I guess using Apples he never encounters IPs. All the important stuff is hidden from you on the mickey mouse machines. Nope. Ips are quite visible in the Network pane of System Preferences. There are panes for setting your IPv4 and v6 addresses, for DNS, proxies, 802.1X, even for playing with the MAC. Ethernet has one set of panes, 802.11 wireless another, there are others for other types of network connections. He’s sufficiently idiotic and pig-ignorant that he he’d bother to go to his Apple menu, select System Preferences, click on Networks, click on the network connection of his choice, and have a look. And, when his idiocy was pointed out to him, he denied it, and when evidence of his idiocy was provided (a MID and a quote from his post, IIRC) he ran away. Nor is this the only example of his idiocy, just an example easily shown. Most good news clients have a built-in search engine; in the Hog, I can search for and find any string in any post on any newsgroup in my system list. Finding ‘x.x.x.x’ in a.c.w, or any other newsgroup, is trivial. I don’t know if your client has similar abilities. He has perpetuated many idiocies over a prolonged period. He’s an idiot. And so are you for taking so much time proving he's wrong. nope. Get a hobby. this is a hobby. |
#41
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Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers?
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 21:14:06 +0100, Wolffan wrote:
On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0odggwqpwdg98l@glass): On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 16:38:33 +0100, wrote: On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0oc9vhsewdg98l@glass): On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:40:34 +0100, wrote: On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0oc80rgowdg98l@glass): On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:41:40 +0100, wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0ob3ngs7wdg98l@glass): On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:08:09 +0100, wrote: On 25/07/2020 23:01, Wolffan wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0obycr1swdg98l@glass): On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 21:52:31 +0100, wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0oboc2f2wdg98l@glass): Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally, then the second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the cooling, no, you won’t. if it conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to the type with the fan on the side. there are numerous sites out there which cover this; I first encountered this idea in 2001. (Yes, 2001. Not a typo. And it wasn’t a new idea then, it was just new to me.) It turns out that doubling the fans gives from -5% (that’s _negative_ five percent, it can make things worse) to +65% airflow, depending on numerous factors. (Size of fan, are the fans spinning in the same direction or in opposite directions, fan speed, how fans are placed relative to the heat exchanger, space inside the computer’s case, location of CPU relative to sides of computer case, location of other items including hard drives, RAM, power supplies, video and/or sound cards, type of case especially with respect to vents, internal cabling, more.) However, airflow and cooling do not necessarily scale together. Merely increasing the airflow does not necessarily do much for the cooling, for that you need heat exchangers attached to the CPU, heat exchangers attached to another heat exchanger don’t do much, and airflow is a square effect while heat exchangers are a cube effect. Airflow maxed out at around +65% for two fans; cooling maxed out at about +45%. And it took considerable effort to get that +45%, most systems were considerably lower than that. There would be a _reason_ why liquid cooling is popular. It’s actually simpler and easier to do. Most modern CPUs generate a whole lot less heat than CPUs dating from 2001 did, so a good way to get a cooler-running system is toi use a newer CPU. And to stay way from the heat-producing monsters, notably IBM Power CPUs, which have improved no end since then but which are still devices to convert electricity into heat, something anyone who ever went near a G5- or a G4- powered Mac could tell you. (One G4 Mac was called the Windtunnel because of the noise level from the fans to keep the CPU cool; one G5 Mac shipped with liquid cooling because Apple didn’t want to ship Windtunnel Mk 2...) IBM is up to Power 8 or 9 or some such now, where G5s were Power 5s, and they’re much better behaved, but still... Doubling the size of the heatsink (and also the number of fans, which won't blow towards each other) must make a considerable difference. It will be twice the cooling effect, minus the lack of conduction through the first heatsink, which I assume will conduct well, being metal and all that. You’re not going to get anywhere close to double the cooling. Instead of kludging together two fans, just buy one of the properly-designed dual fan units out there. (which don’t get twice the cooling of similar single-fan designs from the same company, pros can’t get double the cooling either. Not even close. Look at the specs for yourself.) Or, if you’re serious about cooling, use liquid cooling. What you _will_ get with a dual-fan system is twice the noise. Especially if you use small-diameter fans. Why are you talking down to a Computer Science graduate, Wolffan? Apple *FAN* BOISE have no experience of such matters. :-P You are way out of your league here. Are you not an Apple fan (can't call you a boy at your age) yourself? he’s an idiot. Apart from believing in god and using Apples, no he isn't. He's just down the road from me (well 500 miles). He attempted to post authoritatively about IPs, when he not merely didn’t know the difference between IPv4 and IPv6, he _thought that x.x..x.x was a valid IP address_. Yes, really. He’s an idiot. I guess using Apples he never encounters IPs. All the important stuff is hidden from you on the mickey mouse machines. Nope. Ips are quite visible in the Network pane of System Preferences. There are panes for setting your IPv4 and v6 addresses, for DNS, proxies, 802.1X, even for playing with the MAC. Ethernet has one set of panes, 802.11 wireless another, there are others for other types of network connections. He’s sufficiently idiotic and pig-ignorant that he he’d bother to go to his Apple menu, select System Preferences, click on Networks, click on the network connection of his choice, and have a look. And, when his idiocy was pointed out to him, he denied it, and when evidence of his idiocy was provided (a MID and a quote from his post, IIRC) he ran away. Nor is this the only example of his idiocy, just an example easily shown. Most good news clients have a built-in search engine; in the Hog, I can search for and find any string in any post on any newsgroup in my system list. Finding ‘x.x.x.x’ in a.c.w, or any other newsgroup, is trivial. I don’t know if your client has similar abilities. He has perpetuated many idiocies over a prolonged period. He’s an idiot. And so are you for taking so much time proving he's wrong. nope. Get a hobby. this is a hobby. Do I have to spell it out for you? Get a useful or interesting hobby instead of being a sad lonely stalker. |
#42
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Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers?
On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote
(in article op.0odr2pn5wdg98l@glass): On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 21:14:06 +0100, wrote: On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0odggwqpwdg98l@glass): On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 16:38:33 +0100, wrote: On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0oc9vhsewdg98l@glass): On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 15:40:34 +0100, wrote: On 26 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0oc80rgowdg98l@glass): On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:41:40 +0100, wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0ob3ngs7wdg98l@glass): On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:08:09 +0100, wrote: On 25/07/2020 23:01, Wolffan wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0obycr1swdg98l@glass): On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 21:52:31 +0100, wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0oboc2f2wdg98l@glass): Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally, then the second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the cooling, no, you won’t. if it conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to the type with the fan on the side. there are numerous sites out there which cover this; I first encountered this idea in 2001. (Yes, 2001. Not a typo. And it wasn’t a new idea then, it was just new to me.) It turns out that doubling the fans gives from -5% (that’s _negative_ five percent, it can make things worse) to +65% airflow, depending on numerous factors. (Size of fan, are the fans spinning in the same direction or in opposite directions, fan speed, how fans are placed relative to the heat exchanger, space inside the computer’s case, location of CPU relative to sides of computer case, location of other items including hard drives, RAM, power supplies, video and/or sound cards, type of case especially with respect to vents, internal cabling, more.) However, airflow and cooling do not necessarily scale together. Merely increasing the airflow does not necessarily do much for the cooling, for that you need heat exchangers attached to the CPU, heat exchangers attached to another heat exchanger don’t do much, and airflow is a square effect while heat exchangers are a cube effect. Airflow maxed out at around +65% for two fans; cooling maxed out at about +45%. And it took considerable effort to get that +45%, most systems were considerably lower than that. There would be a _reason_ why liquid cooling is popular. It’s actually simpler and easier to do. Most modern CPUs generate a whole lot less heat than CPUs dating from 2001 did, so a good way to get a cooler-running system is toi use a newer CPU. And to stay way from the heat-producing monsters, notably IBM Power CPUs, which have improved no end since then but which are still devices to convert electricity into heat, something anyone who ever went near a G5- or a G4- powered Mac could tell you. (One G4 Mac was called the Windtunnel because of the noise level from the fans to keep the CPU cool; one G5 Mac shipped with liquid cooling because Apple didn’t want to ship Windtunnel Mk 2...) IBM is up to Power 8 or 9 or some such now, where G5s were Power 5s, and they’re much better behaved, but still... Doubling the size of the heatsink (and also the number of fans, which won't blow towards each other) must make a considerable difference. It will be twice the cooling effect, minus the lack of conduction through the first heatsink, which I assume will conduct well, being metal and all that. You’re not going to get anywhere close to double the cooling. Instead of kludging together two fans, just buy one of the properly-designed dual fan units out there. (which don’t get twice the cooling of similar single-fan designs from the same company, pros can’t get double the cooling either. Not even close. Look at the specs for yourself.) Or, if you’re serious about cooling, use liquid cooling. What you _will_ get with a dual-fan system is twice the noise. Especially if you use small-diameter fans. Why are you talking down to a Computer Science graduate, Wolffan? Apple *FAN* BOISE have no experience of such matters. :-P You are way out of your league here. Are you not an Apple fan (can't call you a boy at your age) yourself? he’s an idiot. Apart from believing in god and using Apples, no he isn't. He's just down the road from me (well 500 miles). He attempted to post authoritatively about IPs, when he not merely didn’t know the difference between IPv4 and IPv6, he _thought that x.x.x.x was a valid IP address_. Yes, really. He’s an idiot. I guess using Apples he never encounters IPs. All the important stuff is hidden from you on the mickey mouse machines. Nope. Ips are quite visible in the Network pane of System Preferences. There are panes for setting your IPv4 and v6 addresses, for DNS, proxies, 802.1X, even for playing with the MAC. Ethernet has one set of panes, 802.11 wireless another, there are others for other types of network connections. He’s sufficiently idiotic and pig-ignorant that he he’d bother to go to his Apple menu, select System Preferences, click on Networks, click on the network connection of his choice, and have a look. And, when his idiocy was pointed out to him, he denied it, and when evidence of his idiocy was provided (a MID and a quote from his post, IIRC) he ran away. Nor is this the only example of his idiocy, just an example easily shown. Most good news clients have a built-in search engine; in the Hog, I can search for and find any string in any post on any newsgroup in my system list. Finding ‘x.x.x.x’ in a.c.w, or any other newsgroup, is trivial. I don’t know if your client has similar abilities. He has perpetuated many idiocies over a prolonged period. He’s an idiot. And so are you for taking so much time proving he's wrong. nope. Get a hobby. this is a hobby. Do I have to spell it out for you? you can try. Get a useful or interesting hobby this is a useful, to mer, and amusing, to me, hobby. Part of its use and part of its amusement comes from the reactions of troll-boy’s fan club. I find _that_ to be worth all the trouble and more. instead of being a sad lonely stalker. Som, I don’t have to stalk hium, I just have to be reading any of the newsgroups where he makes a spectacle of himself. And then to just hit save when I see a particularly idiotic post. and not just one of troll-boy’s posts. Just so you know, I just hit save. You’re funny, boyo. |
#43
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Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers?
Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 11:16:11 +0100, Chris wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote: On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:33:54 +0100, Paul wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote: Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers? First one fitted normally, then the second welded on top of it. Theoretically, you have twice the cooling, if it conducts through the first fast enough. I'm referring to the type with the fan on the side. Call me, when your solution uses heatpipes. It does. Two coolers, each with their own 4 heatpipes. Look at the Zalman completely-passive cooling computer case, if you want to see how to do it. It moves heat from one place to another with heatpipes. The exterior of the case is the final destination. https://www.quietpc.com/tnn500af No no and no. I once bought a "silent power supply" that threw it's heat out the back with a sticky out heatsink. It went bang after a few months. Only with heatpipes, can you move heat from the origin, to the second heatsink, and expect to get improved performance. And both the heatsinks have heatpipes running through them. That's why heatpipes are used, between baseplate and top-of-fins, so that an excessively-long fin does some work for you. It's also why a 50mm tall 40mm square heatsink, is no more effective than a 25mm tall 40mm square heatsink. Those are used on chipsets. The upper portion of the taller unit, has insufficient thermal conduction for the top of the fins to remove heat. It means making fins longer and longer (without heatpipes), is asymptotic. At some point, a longer fin adds nothing to the solution. I can't believe that, metal is a very good conductor. But none is superconducting so there'll always be efficiency losses over distance. Not all metals are the same which is why sinks are a mix of copper and aluminium and not made of steel. Any joins also reduce efficiency. It all adds up to a bad idea. It was a very short distance from the heatpipes of the bottom one to the heatpipes of the top one. The gap could be micrometers, but if it's effectively an insulator (e.g. an air gap), then there's no benefit. The top of tall ones can still be hot to touch. Once you lace the parts together with heatpipes, then we'll talk. There's a limit to how many heatpipes can be fitted, and some thought has to be put into where the heatpipe is moving the heat. I would have 4 heatpipes running through the bottom half, and 4 through the top half. There would only be a short interface of normal metal to join the two. You place the heatpipe at the source, as only if the heatpipe is in intimate contact, does its 1000x better performance, work. Just ramming a pipe into a block with 3 inches of aluminum between the baseplate and the pipe, that would be useless too. As the 3 inches of aluminum is a huge thermal resistance, and the zero resistance of the heatpipe on top cannot then help. The heatpipes always start in the baseplate, touching the CPU. Doesn't have to. The top of the existing heatsink is too hot to touch. So the heatpipes on the new heatsink will take heat away from there. Compare it to the temperature of the CPU. It's probably already lost 30-40 °C. Another sink would lose that again. I touched the block at the bottom where the heatpipes come from and the temperature was very similar. Anyway I fixed it, by changing the fan, I'd forgotten that some fans are really crap - they can be anything from 1100rpm to 4000rpm. I happened to have a few 3000rpm fans sitting about, so I replaced what looks like about 1100rpm with 3000rpm, and lost 20C of temperature (I don't care about the noise, it's in the garage and operated remotely). What's odd is I used to have one CPU at 65C and one at 75C (with identical coolers), and now the 75C has dropped to 55C. I guess the physical position meant cooler air for one of them. Right. Fixing the simple things is always better than coming up with elaborate and convoluted ideas. Occam's razor at work! |
#44
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Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers?
Chris wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote: Anyway I fixed it, by changing the fan, I'd forgotten that some fans are really crap - they can be anything from 1100rpm to 4000rpm. I happened to have a few 3000rpm fans sitting about, so I replaced what looks like about 1100rpm with 3000rpm, and lost 20C of temperature (I don't care about the noise, it's in the garage and operated remotely). What's odd is I used to have one CPU at 65C and one at 75C (with identical coolers), and now the 75C has dropped to 55C. I guess the physical position meant cooler air for one of them. Right. Fixing the simple things is always better than coming up with elaborate and convoluted ideas. Occam's razor at work! The CFM rating. Fans come in four classes. Low, medium, high, ultra 35CFM 110CFM A medium is a typical case cooling fan. I have one ultra here, noisy, removed from machine. Once the velocity of the air reaches 800 LFPM, cooling is asymptotic. Jamming an Ultra in may not be necessary. The Ultra also tends to be thicker (37.5mm instead of 25mm for regular case fans). Some setups are poorly designed, and air leaks out the side. Study the airflow carefully, to see if the air is being well-used and guided. As a dumb-ass example, I have some disk enclosures that have exhaust fans... and no air intake holes :-/ Paul |
#45
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Has anybody ever stacked two CPU coolers?
On 26/07/2020 16.20, Commander Kinsey wrote: On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:01:26 +0100, Wolffan wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0obycr1swdg98l@glass): On Sat, 25 Jul 2020 21:52:31 +0100, * wrote: On 25 Jul 2020, Commander Kinsey wrote (in article op.0oboc2f2wdg98l@glass): .... Doubling the size of the heatsink (and also the number of fans, which won't blow towards each other) must make a considerable difference. It will be twice the cooling effect, minus the lack of conduction through the first heatsink, which I assume will conduct well, being metal and all that. You’re not going to get anywhere close to double the cooling. Instead of kludging together two fans, just buy one of the properly-designed dual fan units out there. (which don’t get twice the cooling of similar single-fan designs from the same company, pros can’t get double the cooling either. Not even close. Look at the specs for yourself.) Or, if you’re serious about cooling, use liquid cooling. What you _will_ get with a dual-fan system is twice the noise. Especially if you use small-diameter fans. Dual fan is pointless.* Each fan is designed to push x amount of air, adding another one in it's path won't speed that air up.* You only get better airflow from faster fans, or fans in parallel.* Series is stupid. Not really. Depends. https://www.mouser.es/pdfDocs/theparallelandseriesoperation.pdf There is at least one helicopter with "serial" blades (for another reason). -- Cheers, Carlos. |
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