Disk Image, which is best?

On 2014-07-22 14:43, Paul wrote:

Operating systems can even be placed in logical partitions.
The part that cannot be placed in the logical partition,
is the boot portion (at least, on Windows). For OSes with
separable System and Boot portions, or with boot managers,
it is even possible to put OSes in there.

Let's say I install BootIt and use it as my primary boot manager. And
let's say I install Win7 and Win8 and let them create their hidden
System partition so they can place their bootfiles there. Then I will be
using 2 boot managers. I will end-up picking Windows in BootIt, then it
will boot off the hidden System partition and I will now have a choice
of Win7 or Win8. This will let me place Windows on an extended
partition, but I will now be using 2 boot managers, AND I will have no
way of hiding Win7 from Win8 (the windows boot manager doesn't let you
hide partitions prior to booting some boot partition).

Or am I wrong?

Best Regards,

--
_\|/_ Sylvain /
(o o) Member-+-David-Suzuki-Foundation-+-Planetary-Society-
oO-( )-Oo Cut life support to all quarters with children -Picard

Hi, Mayayana.

The idea of using a logical drive as a system drive is new to me,

To me, too! No, we can't do that. Read my post again, along with the link
that Winston posted:

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/w...logical-drives


(The Windows folder but not Program Files?)

But remember that the Program Files folder is actually a SUB folder under
the \Windows folder.

I preceded the Windows folder name with "\" to emphasize that it is a
top-level folder.

There is C:\Windows and C:\Windows\Program Files. There is NO C:\Program
Files.


As I said, in a part of my message that you did not quote:
But a logical drive can be a "Boot Drive", which is the partition (aka
"volume" aka "drive") that holds the entire Windows OS, in the \Windows
folder and all the hundreds of subfolders in that tree.

Program Files is one of the "hundreds of subfolders" under the \Windows
parent folder.

I like the famous line in Ed Bott's Inside Out books: Some may think it
strange that we BOOT from the SYSTEM partition and keep the operating SYSTEM
in the BOOT volume.

We can argue about these counterintuitive labels, but we are stuck with
them. That's just the way it is.

The only files that must be in the Root of the System Partition are the
"bootmgr" file - no extension, just over 400,000 bytes - and the
poorly-named \Boot folder. Yes, that is the name of the folder that holds
the BCD (Boot Configuration Data). In my Win8.1, this folder has a total of
22 MB in 93 files in 119 directories (folders - yes, many of them are
empty). That's why the System Partition can be quite small; my 10 GB
partition Z: still has over 10 Billion bytes free, thanks to the differences
between decimal and hexadecimal arithmetic.

Note that "the \Boot folder" is NOT "the Boot Folder" - which is why I said
it is poorly named. WHY Microsoft chose to call it that is a mystery to me!
:( On my computer there is a BIG difference between Z:\Boot and
C:\Windows, which is the Boot Folder. I should explain, too, I suppose,
that my current installation was not "from scratch", but the continuation of
decades of updating Windows (starting about 1983 with Windows 1.0 or
thereabouts). So I don't have a "Recovery Partition" or any of the
3rd-party partitions that HP or Dell or other OEMS or even Microsoft might
have created. My dual-booting started when I added WinNT 4.0 to Win95 in
1998. Soon I learned that the System Partition and the Boot Volume were
separate things and did not have to share Drive C:. Later I learned that
the power-on sequence always has to start in the System Partition, but then
(based on entries in Boot.ini or the BCD) can branch to the Boot Volume,
which can be on any partition or logical drive in the computer.

But I know nothing about Linux or Android or Macs. Just Windows. No
Acronis or Macrium or such. Used Partition Magic until Disk Management came
along (in Win2K).

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX

Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
Windows Live Mail 2012 (Build 16.4.3528.0331) in Win8.1 Pro with Media
Center


"Mayayana" wrote in message ...

| ...kinda annoying when the limit is 4....
|
| You are on the right road about 4+ partitions in Windows, but there is a
| rocky detour. ;^}
|
| You don't need 3rd-party utilities to use more than 4 partitions. Disk
| Management (diskmgmt.msc) can handle the job easily. In fact, Win7 or
Win8
| just might handle it for you automatically.

I think the OP understands that one can have more
*logical* drives. The idea of using a logical drive as a
system drive is new to me, but it doesn't seem like
a great idea. You describe it as system-only. (The Windows
folder but not Program Files?) That sounds very brittle
and convoluted. It's hard to imagine needing more than
3 systems on disk, and I certainly would never need it
that bad.

However, (for B00ze) I don't see any need to have a
dedicated BootIt partition. The boot disk can be used
for work on the home partition or to install to a new
home partition. The home partition ("C drive") install
can be booted into through the boot menu for any other
work.
I always either have 3 primary systems or enough room
to install them, should I want to. Then I have an extended
partition with numerous data drives and sometimes 1 or more
Linux installs. A secondary disk is set up the same way,
using the secondary data partitions as backup. (I think
BootIt will also boot second disk OSs, but I've never needed
to do that.)

| There is C:\Windows and C:\Windows\Program Files. There is NO C:\Program
| Files.

I think you have something mixed up there.

| I want to avoid picking windows in the BootIt loader
| and then picking windows again in the windows boot loader...
|

That's a tricky one. From Vista on Windows has become
very pushy. It used to refuse to acknowledge other
installed systems. Now it refuses not to acknowledge them,
but only lists officially approved systems. I don't know
whether that behavior can be stopped, though I'd be
interested to know if someone has the solution. In my
experience, Win7 seems to check for known systems
when it boots and will then show a boot menu if there's
more than one system. The second system doesn't need
to be added.

Hi, Mayayana.

OOPS! I owe you a red-faced apology! Both Program Files and Program Files
(x86) are root-level files in my Drive C:.

Thanks for the correction.

RC



"Mayayana" wrote in message ...

| There is C:\Windows and C:\Windows\Program Files. There is NO C:\Program
| Files.

I think you have something mixed up there.

B00ze wrote:
On 2014-07-22 14:43, Paul wrote:

Operating systems can even be placed in logical partitions.
The part that cannot be placed in the logical partition,
is the boot portion (at least, on Windows). For OSes with
separable System and Boot portions, or with boot managers,
it is even possible to put OSes in there.

Let's say I install BootIt and use it as my primary boot manager. And
let's say I install Win7 and Win8 and let them create their hidden
System partition so they can place their bootfiles there. Then I will be
using 2 boot managers. I will end-up picking Windows in BootIt, then it
will boot off the hidden System partition and I will now have a choice
of Win7 or Win8. This will let me place Windows on an extended
partition, but I will now be using 2 boot managers, AND I will have no
way of hiding Win7 from Win8 (the windows boot manager doesn't let you
hide partitions prior to booting some boot partition).

Or am I wrong?

Best Regards,


It's true what you say could happen.

But, you can fix that.

Remember that, when a Windows boot manager only contains one
OS entry, *no* menu is presented.

If one of your Windows OSes currently has two entries, like
Win7+Win8 are shown in the same menu, you want to undo that.

It's even possible BootIt is smart enough to remove the
extraneous entries from whatever is managing your boot
process right now.

And if that is not true, I bet a little work with bcdedit
(Microsoft utility) or Easybcd (commercial) can fix it.

If I had your setup, I would end up with only the
BootIt menu.

The only third party boot manager I've used to date, was
PowerQuest BootMagic, and as I remember it, I never saw a
second boot menu. There was only one menu. And
that's because all of the OSes were added separately,
and there was no opportunity for boot.ini to contain
two entries. I may have had Windows and FreeBSD controlled
by BootMagic on that machine. And some other OS that
escapes my recollection now. As these things go, I
had few problems with the setup, and it seemed
to work well enough. That was about three or four
computers ago :-) Back when PowerQuest was still
in business.

Paul

B00ze wrote:
On 2014-07-22 17:43, . . .winston wrote:

A primary partition, unlike a logical drive can be both a System and
Boot Partition but since Windows Vista unless special routes are taken
Windows will create a unique System partition (System Reserved 100 MB
Vista and Win7, 350 MB Win8) and a unique Boot Partition for the
operating system.

This is what I am trying to avoid; I want each Windows OS to be
completely contained in 1 partition and not even see the other versions
of itself. This is the way I've always done it with Win98/2k/Xp (but
then again, I never got Windows to boot off another drive, so I've
always been limited to 4 OSes).

You've a big bridge to cross to achieve each Windows with a common,
rather than separate System and Boot Partitions (Volumes) on the same
partition.

Well 2K, like Vista and Win7, if installed on an existing disk's
different partition when that disk already had a System partition would
place 2K's bootloader files on that disk's System partition.

--
...winston

On 7/22/2014 9:13 PM PT, Paul typed:

The only third party boot manager I've used to date, was
PowerQuest BootMagic, and as I remember it, I never saw a
second boot menu. There was only one menu. And
that's because all of the OSes were added separately,
and there was no opportunity for boot.ini to contain
two entries. I may have had Windows and FreeBSD controlled
by BootMagic on that machine. And some other OS that
escapes my recollection now. As these things go, I
had few problems with the setup, and it seemed
to work well enough. That was about three or four
computers ago :-) Back when PowerQuest was still
in business.

I have used it before too. I think with Red Hat Linux v5.x or v6.x with
Windows 98(?). I forget. I miss PowerQuest and its Partition Magic.
Thanks Symantec.
--
"He who cannot pick up an ant, and wants to pick up an elephant will
some day see his folly." --African
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
/ /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o o| |
\ _ / If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
( ) If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.

On 2014-07-22 22:50, Mayayana wrote:

| I want to avoid picking windows in the BootIt loader
| and then picking windows again in the windows boot loader...
|

That's a tricky one. From Vista on Windows has become
very pushy. It used to refuse to acknowledge other
installed systems. Now it refuses not to acknowledge them,
but only lists officially approved systems. I don't know
whether that behavior can be stopped, though I'd be
interested to know if someone has the solution. In my
experience, Win7 seems to check for known systems
when it boots and will then show a boot menu if there's
more than one system. The second system doesn't need
to be added.

You need a boot manager that can screw-up the partition types of all the
partitions you don't want OS #x to see, then even Windows 7 will not
know and list other choices. But that is achievable only with primary
partitions. For extended, you need a common System/Active one, and then
every Windows will know of the others, and you have to manage the BCD,
etc...

--
_\|/_ Sylvain /
(o o) Member-+-David-Suzuki-Foundation-+-Planetary-Society-
oO-( )-Oo hIT aNY uSER tO cONTINUE.

On 2014-07-23 06:03, Ant wrote:

On 7/22/2014 9:13 PM PT, Paul typed:

The only third party boot manager I've used to date, was
PowerQuest BootMagic, and as I remember it, I never saw a
second boot menu. There was only one menu. And
that's because all of the OSes were added separately,
and there was no opportunity for boot.ini to contain
two entries. I may have had Windows and FreeBSD controlled
by BootMagic on that machine. And some other OS that
escapes my recollection now. As these things go, I
had few problems with the setup, and it seemed
to work well enough. That was about three or four
computers ago :-) Back when PowerQuest was still
in business.

I have used it before too. I think with Red Hat Linux v5.x or v6.x with
Windows 98(?). I forget. I miss PowerQuest and its Partition Magic.
Thanks Symantec.

Yup, I use BootMagic right now on the server that I am attempting to
replace (and learn about by asking questions here so I know where I'm
going once I build it).

--
_\|/_ Sylvain /
(o o) Member-+-David-Suzuki-Foundation-+-Planetary-Society-
oO-( )-Oo Which is the non-smoking lifeboat?

| | I want to avoid picking windows in the BootIt loader
| | and then picking windows again in the windows boot loader...
| |
|
| That's a tricky one. From Vista on Windows has become
| very pushy. It used to refuse to acknowledge other
| installed systems. Now it refuses not to acknowledge them,
| but only lists officially approved systems. I don't know
| whether that behavior can be stopped, though I'd be
| interested to know if someone has the solution. In my
| experience, Win7 seems to check for known systems
| when it boots and will then show a boot menu if there's
| more than one system. The second system doesn't need
| to be added.
|
| You need a boot manager that can screw-up the partition types of all the
| partitions you don't want OS #x to see, then even Windows 7 will not
| know and list other choices. But that is achievable only with primary
| partitions. For extended, you need a common System/Active one, and then
| every Windows will know of the others, and you have to manage the BCD,
| etc...
|
I use the BootIt boot manager, and install Windows
only to primaries. I may be mistaken, as I don't do a
lot with Win7, but I thought I remembered that Win7
actually looked for other systems at each boot, whether
they were in the boot config or not.

Mayayana wrote:
| I want to avoid picking windows in the BootIt loader
| and then picking windows again in the windows boot loader...
|

That's a tricky one. From Vista on Windows has become
very pushy. It used to refuse to acknowledge other
installed systems. Now it refuses not to acknowledge them,
but only lists officially approved systems. I don't know
whether that behavior can be stopped, though I'd be
interested to know if someone has the solution. In my
experience, Win7 seems to check for known systems
when it boots and will then show a boot menu if there's
more than one system. The second system doesn't need
to be added.


The presence of other systems on the same units physically connected
devices does not mean **Windows** will show a boot menu. Windows is
only capable of showing a boot menu if its configuration files have been
written to by the user, Windows, or a 3rd party utility. Presence of
other o/s does not mean Windows will write to the configuration file.



--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

Hi, RC

You're welcome. Full circle too...I think I learned it from you G


--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

R. C. White wrote:
Hi, Winston.

Thanks for filling in the gap for me. Maybe I'll remember this time.

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX

Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
Windows Live Mail 2012 (Build 16.4.3528.0331) in Win8.1 Pro with Media
Center


". . .winston" wrote in message ...

R. C. White wrote:
Hi, B00ze.

...kinda annoying when the limit is 4....

* Actually, I never can remember: maybe the 4th Primary is created
initially as the Extended Partition.

RC

Yes, when using Windows Disk Management (Vista and later o/s) the 4th is
automatically created as an extended partition.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/w...logical-drives

On 19/07/2014 00:33, B00ze wrote:
Good day all.

I am looking for recommendations as to which disk image program is the
best (free if possible but I don't mind buying it if it meets all my
requirements). Now I understand that "best" is subjective, but I'll
list my requirements below. I currently consider GHOST the "Best" but
it is aging. I tried Acronis but it is crap so I'm looking for
something else...

I'm looking at the following:

- TeraBytes Unlimited "Image for Windows"
- Macrium Reflect
- Paragon Backup & Recovery
- O&O DiskImage
- DriveImage XML
- CloneZilla
- PiNG

Requirements:

I'd like the tool to backup partitions FILE-BASED, just like GHOST
used to do (the old versions before Symantec bought PQ and changed it,
at least I THINK it was file-based). Sector-based is OK so long as the
restore operation re-creates the disk structure as it restores. GHOST
does that: when you restore you also defragment the disk. Ideally, it
is capable of restoring to a smaller or bigger partition...

It should have a PE (or Linux) CD that is capable of doing everything
the Windoze program does (I prefer offline backups). So a "rescue" CD
is nice, but not sufficient. Even better if the PE is Windoze 8 based
so it has USB3 drivers included...

It should be capable of restoring to new hardware (e.g. it includes
NewSID; I think this is all that's needed, as Windoze does the rest
while booting-up and finding new devices).

I'd like incremental and/or differential backups. Ideally, the program
does not keep a "Backup Definitions" database on C drive, like
Acronis. Instead, it is intelligent enough to ask for the base file
(or for a definition file) when I start the backup, and is intelligent
enough that the target disk can change drive letter without
invalidating the backup (ideally, pick "Incremental" then double-click
on some XML file where previous backup was and there it goes).

It should understand GPT drives (otherwise I might as well keep on
using my good old Ghost 8, which I doubt understands GPT).

Backups should be explore'able (e.g. GhostExplorer).

It should do compression.

As a bonus, it would be nice if it could backup the partition table as
well as say, Track 1 (boot). Even better if it comes with something
similar to GDisk (DOS command line partition table editor).

I'm probably forgetting something but anyway, there it is.

Thanks for all your advice.
Best Regards,


I would stick with Macrium because they release new versions regualrly.
the current version is: 5.3.7109 (21 July 2014) and it supports GPT if
you are using windows 8/8.1.

The free version can be downloaded from this link:

http://www.macrium.com/reflectfree.aspx

You can try the free version and if you like it, you can get the
professional version if you really need it.

Good luck.

On 2014-07-24 17:54, Good Guy wrote:


I would stick with Macrium because they release new versions regualrly.
the current version is: 5.3.7109 (21 July 2014) and it supports GPT if
you are using windows 8/8.1.

The free version can be downloaded from this link:

http://www.macrium.com/reflectfree.aspx

You can try the free version and if you like it, you can get the
professional version if you really need it.

Good luck.


I looked at Paragon's (just browsed their site) but doesn't look like
I'll like it. I think I'll look at Macrium next; if Paul and you and
others like it, must be pretty decent. thanks GG!

--
_\|/_ Sylvain /
(o o) Member-+-David-Suzuki-Foundation-+-Planetary-Society-
oO-( )-Oo Counselor, can I, uh, use your com-badge? -Riker