O.T. Macrium

Mark Twain wrote:
Ta da!

I re-read your instructions ,.. and went
hunting for the HDMI again and this time
I found it under channels!

So it's now working great! Although I now
have to find the control to turn off the
damn auto-audio,. like when you turn the
volume up or down it tells you but hey it's
working!

Many thanks,
Robert

Testing is important.

The 747 has landed safely at the airport :-)
The passengers are relieved.

Paul

Mark Twain wrote:

Here's what happened,.. the Sony DVD player finally
arrived and I hooked it up to the LG TV via HDMI and
L/R phono hookups and nothing. I cannot get the TV
to switch over to the DVD player or show any menu's.

Just a note: HDMI carries audio as well as video signals, so if you're
using the HDMI hookup to connect the DVD (BluRay?) to the TV - as you
should - the phono hookups will not be used.

--
Tim Slattery
tim at risingdove dot com

As a last note:

I unplugged the audio cables
from the TV/DVD player.

Given that this all happened, I thought
about my surge protector:

https://www.google.com/search?q=apc+...edRbtT0hNI9rM:

I know it wouldn't of prevented
what happened but am just thinking
of getting a backup, just in case
mine goes out.

Should I stick with what I have or
is there a better option?

Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
As a last note:

I unplugged the audio cables
from the TV/DVD player.

Given that this all happened, I thought
about my surge protector:

https://www.google.com/search?q=apc+...edRbtT0hNI9rM:

I know it wouldn't of prevented
what happened but am just thinking
of getting a backup, just in case
mine goes out.

Should I stick with what I have or
is there a better option?

Thanks,
Robert

A surge arrester only protects against certain
"classes" of faults.

Say, for example, some switching equipment at the substation,
makes a slight "blip" on your AC rails. The components inside
the surge arrestor are rated for so many Joules of energy.
They can snip the top off a transient, and convert it to heat
and/or shunt it to ground.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector

When an electrician wires the two hots from 240 volts across
your 120 volt premises, the conventional surge arrestor is powerless
to protect you. Say for example, it starts conducting at 150V
or so. The 240V flows and flows into the arrestor parts,
until the MOV discs explode and in the process of doing so,
they no longer limit surges. On units where the arrestors
are monitored by a LED, the LED status will indicate
later that the arrestor is damaged and no longer functioning.
But you'd be able to tell from the smell, the smoke, visible
damage or whatever. Inside a well designed one, there is
normally consideration for the destructive potential of
a disc, so that it's contained and can't cause any more
trouble than is absolutely necessary. (In the Chinese ones,
sometimes exposed conductors after a failure, can short and
burn a significant hole in the bar. You'd want a bar with
a real UL sticker, not a fake sticker.)

A surge arrestor is a very short term protection. Only
very short electrical flaws, keep their total energy low
enough, that the arrestor does its job and protects the
equipment.

For longer term events, like if say 1100V fell onto a
110V line, the power bar just smokes and makes rude noises,
like every other appliance in the house. And all the
downstream devices (your DVD player on the surge arrestor
bar), gets fried too.

Only a device that could magically disconnect the equipment
could survive. And I've not seen such a thing offered
to the public.

If we look in this article, there are various exotic
device types mentioned. A triac, for example, is used
in a lamp dimmer. It's a "controlled conduction" device.
Once started (once it goes into conduction state),
it's hard to turn off. By comparison, the IGBT remains
in control a bit better. It's more likely to cover
all quadrants of operation. I understand they're used
in moderate power control applications. Perhaps
sufficient to even disconnect a mis-wired 240V accident.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_...nductor_device

They make solid state relays, but the pictures I can find
suggest that name is used for lower power items. I don't
see any rated for a 15A circuit.

Somewhere, the power company uses IGBTs for the low end
of the voltage range. And perhaps a circuit based on
such a thing, could disconnect 240 from your 120 equipment
in an emergency.

When solid state devices open the circuit and stop the
passage of dangerous voltages, the opening of the circuit
in the face of an inductive circuit (a motor), can cause
its very own transient, that needs, you guessed it...
a surge protector. So if such a thing exists to
protect consumers, it has to be a two-stage device.
The IGBT would come first, to disconnect the power, and
in situations where the device doesn't disconnect, the
next device downstream would be surge protector discs.

I'm not finding any products like that for sale at
the moment. If I find them, I'll post them later.

One thing you have to remember, is high tech companies
are some of the most backward companies in the world.
There are still companies out there that don't use the
web in any real way, and if you have a business card
and are in the business, they still ship you a 500 page
paper catalog to look through. We had several very large
rooms at work, containing just about every 500 page publication
like that, that you can imagine. And all because the
companies do not embrace PDF or electronic distribution.

Even our component purchaser, had to use paper publications
to find components for projects. The job cannot be
done entirely with web sites and computers.

There could very well be a nice protection device for
sustained faults, but will it be advertised on the
web ? And not made by cranks ? There are a few people
with imaginative ideas about fault protection, so
not every advert on the web (from small companies)
is to be trusted. Basically, what I want in a purchase
like this, is a "brand name I can sue" :-) :-)
Someone to take to court when it doesn't work.
Make sure the head office of the company is in
your country, so the full weight of the law applies.

Paul

In message , Paul
writes:
Mark Twain wrote:
As a last note:
I unplugged the audio cables
from the TV/DVD player.
Given that this all happened, I thought
about my surge protector:

https://www.google.com/search?q=apc+...e=lnms&tbm=isc
h&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjP1oaEs_LYAhUO9GMKHdZsDgAQ_AUI CygC&biw=1701&bih=914#i
mgrc=PedRbtT0hNI9rM:
I know it wouldn't of prevented what happened but am just thinking
of getting a backup, just in case mine goes out. Should I stick
with what I have or is there a better option?
Thanks,
Robert

A surge arrester only protects against certain
"classes" of faults.

Yes, basically short spikes.

Say, for example, some switching equipment at the substation,
makes a slight "blip" on your AC rails. The components inside
the surge arrestor are rated for so many Joules of energy.
They can snip the top off a transient, and convert it to heat
and/or shunt it to ground.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector

When an electrician wires the two hots from 240 volts across
your 120 volt premises, the conventional surge arrestor is powerless
[]
A surge arrestor is a very short term protection. Only
very short electrical flaws, keep their total energy low
enough, that the arrestor does its job and protects the
equipment.

(I think I have seen devices with two or three protection devices, each
monitored by a lamp or indicator, which fail in sequence.)

For longer term events, like if say 1100V fell onto a
110V line, the power bar just smokes and makes rude noises,
like every other appliance in the house. And all the
downstream devices (your DVD player on the surge arrestor
bar), gets fried too.

Only a device that could magically disconnect the equipment
could survive. And I've not seen such a thing offered
to the public.

Indeed. It needs to be mechanical, and disconnect the supply from itself
as well: a permanent fault will destroy anything that remains connected.
And most such (probably all) will not go fast enough to prevent damage
getting through. Such a device _in combination_ with some sacrificial
parts (breakover discs or similar) will protect against _some_ sorts of
fault.

If we look in this article, there are various exotic
device types mentioned. A triac, for example, is used
in a lamp dimmer. It's a "controlled conduction" device.
Once started (once it goes into conduction state),
it's hard to turn off.

Once triggered into conduction, a triac (or a thyristor) will indeed
conduct - even after removal of the trigger signal - until the current
goes off; however, since the current does so 100 times a second (120 in
USA), they do go off. But 10 (or 8) milliseconds can be long enough to
do damage given enough force behind the fault.

By comparison, the IGBT remains
in control a bit better. It's more likely to cover
all quadrants of operation. I understand they're used
in moderate power control applications. Perhaps
sufficient to even disconnect a mis-wired 240V accident.

If the control side is adequately protected, they will work for some
faults. Probably at the expense of not infrequent false cutoff, so
probably need to be used in conjunction with a UPS. (Some of the more
expensive UPSs have a degree of protection included, especially the
always-on variety [that is always powering the load from generated
power].)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_...nductor_device

They make solid state relays, but the pictures I can find
suggest that name is used for lower power items. I don't
see any rated for a 15A circuit.

Agreed.
[]
I'm not finding any products like that for sale at
the moment. If I find them, I'll post them later.

One thing you have to remember, is high tech companies
are some of the most backward companies in the world.
There are still companies out there that don't use the
web in any real way, and if you have a business card
and are in the business, they still ship you a 500 page
paper catalog to look through. We had several very large
[]
Probably because the market is of a sufficiently small size, and
involves people, that they think a web page isn't worth it. (I'd not
agree with them, but that's by the by.) Basically, devices to provide
protection against significant powerline-borne problems are going to be
big, expensive, and prone to false triggering, and the majority of the
public are not going to be interested; they prefer to use nothing and
rely on the power company, or occasionally to buy expensive sacrificial
units where the manufacturer offers "up to $xxx protection", such
manufacturers relying on statistics rather than technology (i. e. they
expect the majority of their users never to claim, and pay the rest out
of the profits).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I hope you dream a pig.

Understood,

Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
As a last note:

I unplugged the audio cables
from the TV/DVD player.

Given that this all happened, I thought
about my surge protector:

https://www.google.com/search?q=apc+...edRbtT0hNI9rM:

I know it wouldn't of prevented
what happened but am just thinking
of getting a backup, just in case
mine goes out.

Should I stick with what I have or
is there a better option?

Thanks,
Robert

As Paul NoSpam pretty much said, (paraphrasing) "nothing protects against everything".
However, IMO, some protection is better than none, so several years ago I went to walmart
and bought a pile of low cost ($10-$20) surge protectors and put them on everything in
the house. Some of them daisy chain plug into the next one.

I don't know if a UPS would have helped you or not. They are a pain to maintain though.
Work wise we use PowerVar on all the equipment power and com lines.
I have an older model of a PowerVar 600 UPS that was given to me but the cost for 2 new
lead acid batteries every 2-3 years kept going up and when it reached $100 for two
batteries I gave up. And the thing used ~750 watts of incoming power.
It worked fine on my old computer but the new comp and LCD have too much current draw
for it so it sits here unused. Would need a PowerVar 1440 which is out of my price range.

Lightning got one of our SCADA sites a few years ago. It literally burned and melted
down 1/2 mile of phone line and 115v power line. The phone line's several surge
protectors all exploded and the PowerVar burned out. The additional surge protectors
inside of the SCADA units burned out but the equipment itself was ok.
All have solid grounding wires going to dedicated grounding rods.

I always thought it was a good idea of
putting all the power lines under ground.
That way they would be allot safer, dryer
and easier to access and be out of harms
way.

Although it would be a herculean task it
would also put allot of people to work and
be better in the long run and be ascetically
pleasing instead of a horizon of wires
everywhere.

Just a thought,
Robert

as a funny epilogue,...

I went to put in a favorite DVD
but the box was empty? Then I
thought where it was! So I opened
my old DVD player up and sure enough,
there was my DVD. I had to pry
it out very carefully but I was able
to retrieve it!

I put it in the new player just to
make sure it was OK,... Whew,...
that was close. *L*

The TV at first took a little getting
use to; going from 21 inch to 28 inch
and switched it to cinema. It's incredibly
sharp and clear and clean and the audio
is adequate. Although I noticed in the
standard mode I could adjust the treble,
base, and balance but in Cinema mode it's
preset.

My only complaint is using two remotes
and the Sony isn't laid out very well.
Other than that I would say they should
provide a user manual with all the functions
and where to find them. Instead of leaving
the customer guessing and having to find out
by trial and error.

Thanks again for all the good help,

Robert

Paul in Houston TX wrote:
Mark Twain wrote:
As a last note:

I unplugged the audio cables
from the TV/DVD player.

Given that this all happened, I thought
about my surge protector:

https://www.google.com/search?q=apc+...edRbtT0hNI9rM:


I know it wouldn't of prevented
what happened but am just thinking
of getting a backup, just in case
mine goes out.

Should I stick with what I have or
is there a better option?

Thanks,
Robert

As Paul NoSpam pretty much said, (paraphrasing) "nothing protects
against everything".
However, IMO, some protection is better than none, so several years ago
I went to walmart
and bought a pile of low cost ($10-$20) surge protectors and put them on
everything in
the house. Some of them daisy chain plug into the next one.

I don't know if a UPS would have helped you or not. They are a pain to
maintain though.
Work wise we use PowerVar on all the equipment power and com lines.
I have an older model of a PowerVar 600 UPS that was given to me but the
cost for 2 new
lead acid batteries every 2-3 years kept going up and when it reached
$100 for two
batteries I gave up. And the thing used ~750 watts of incoming power.
It worked fine on my old computer but the new comp and LCD have too much
current draw
for it so it sits here unused. Would need a PowerVar 1440 which is out
of my price range.

Lightning got one of our SCADA sites a few years ago. It literally
burned and melted
down 1/2 mile of phone line and 115v power line. The phone line's
several surge
protectors all exploded and the PowerVar burned out. The additional
surge protectors
inside of the SCADA units burned out but the equipment itself was ok.
All have solid grounding wires going to dedicated grounding rods.


Of all the UPS architectures (there are at least five), the
double-conversion is the safest.

In some cases, the line interactive ones (they fix brown-outs), there's
a possibility the dynamic behavior of the unit will damage downstream
equipment. Some of them may be ferroresonant, and you really
can't predict how a transient will "ping" one of those.

The UPSes, the more expensive ones, usually have some surge protection
on a set of outputs, which is better than nothing.

On a double-conversion, the fan runs all the time, and the unit
gives off some heat. That's the type used in server computer rooms

*******

The kind I own, is an SPS (standby power supply), which switches
in 8-16ms, and computers don't glitch on it because the ATX supply
stores energy in that big main cap.

This works fine, except for lightning in "thru" mode going
through the device, and blowing all the MOVs on it. It's level
of protection isn't going to be all that good, when my
number comes up.

The battery on mine lasted for 10 years, before the daily
test pulse failed and the unit lets out a single beep
each day to alert you. Except at first, you cannot figure
out which piece of equipment in the house is beeping.
At first, I assumed a smoke detector needed help, but
that wasn't it.

It helps if you don't drain the UPS batteries a lot.
I usually do a controlled Windows shutdown, and the UPS
gets switched off before the battery is flat. That can
help the battery life a bit. The replacement battery
wasn't too expensive (yet another Chinese battery to
replace the original Chinese battery).

Paul

In message , Mark
Twain writes:
I always thought it was a good idea of
putting all the power lines under ground.
That way they would be allot safer, dryer
and easier to access and be out of harms
way.

Although it would be a herculean task it
would also put allot of people to work and
be better in the long run and be ascetically
pleasing instead of a horizon of wires
everywhere.

Just a thought,
Robert

On the whole, that's how it is in the UK - you only get overhead wires
in low-population and some coastal areas (and even there I think the
overheads may be mostly 'phone rather than power lines: I think
pole-mounted transformers are virtually unknown), and for some
high-voltage lines (pylons). (And we don't have much over 400 kV on
those.)

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

All change is not growth, as all movement is not forward. -Ellen Glasgow,
novelist (1874-1945)

In message , Paul
writes:
[]
Of all the UPS architectures (there are at least five), the
double-conversion is the safest.

In some cases, the line interactive ones (they fix brown-outs), there's
a possibility the dynamic behavior of the unit will damage downstream
equipment. Some of them may be ferroresonant, and you really
can't predict how a transient will "ping" one of those.

The UPSes, the more expensive ones, usually have some surge protection
on a set of outputs, which is better than nothing.

On a double-conversion, the fan runs all the time, and the unit
gives off some heat. That's the type used in server computer rooms

*******

The kind I own, is an SPS (standby power supply), which switches
in 8-16ms, and computers don't glitch on it because the ATX supply
stores energy in that big main cap.

This works fine, except for lightning in "thru" mode going
through the device, and blowing all the MOVs on it. It's level
of protection isn't going to be all that good, when my
number comes up.

The battery on mine lasted for 10 years, before the daily
test pulse failed and the unit lets out a single beep
each day to alert you. Except at first, you cannot figure
out which piece of equipment in the house is beeping.
At first, I assumed a smoke detector needed help, but
that wasn't it.

It helps if you don't drain the UPS batteries a lot.
I usually do a controlled Windows shutdown, and the UPS
gets switched off before the battery is flat. That can
help the battery life a bit. The replacement battery
wasn't too expensive (yet another Chinese battery to
replace the original Chinese battery).

Paul

There's always the old sort - the rotary converter, alias
motor-generator set! Not much cop as a UPS (though I suppose you could
add a DC motor to the shaft), but pretty good for surge protection.
Probably not popular with wives (or husbands) though! I also can't help
thinking their reliability can't be great, running continuously - though
there _are_ plenty of rotating machines that _do_ run continuously (not
least hard drives), so I'm probably wrong about that.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

All change is not growth, as all movement is not forward. -Ellen Glasgow,
novelist (1874-1945)

Mark Twain wrote:
as a funny epilogue,...
....
....

My only complaint is using two remotes
and the Sony isn't laid out very well.
Other than that I would say they should
provide a user manual with all the functions
and where to find them. Instead of leaving
the customer guessing and having to find out
by trial and error.

Thanks again for all the good help,

Robert

Page 6 of your DVD instructions explains how to use the DVD
remote to control the TV. That's assuming the those are your DVD and TV
and it actully works.

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:


There's always the old sort - the rotary converter, alias
motor-generator set! Not much cop as a UPS (though I suppose you could
add a DC motor to the shaft), but pretty good for surge protection.
Probably not popular with wives (or husbands) though! I also can't help
thinking their reliability can't be great, running continuously - though
there _are_ plenty of rotating machines that _do_ run continuously (not
least hard drives), so I'm probably wrong about that.

In the reading I did, the estimated life on those
is around 10 years, without bearing work.

You lube the bearings once a year. That's the maintenance
schedule.

A motor-generator set does provide good protection.
It's just inconvenient.

In university, our motors lab had motor-generator
sets, so I have experience :-) They're good fun
to play with. The student version isn't entirely
safe, due to students making wiring errors etc.
(A home version doesn't have exposed wires.)

Paul

I don't have a page 6; All that came with
the DVD player is (1) page of specifications
and instructions in sections and (1) sheet
for set-up with diagrams.

There is no user guide manual with (6) pages.
However I'm still looking/reading the
different sections and perhaps that's
what you were referring to?

Thanks,
Robert