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#61
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New, Non-Cosmetic Features In Vista -- Ten Good Reasons To Upgrade
wrote in message
... It's another self-fulfilling prophecy: the only reason why we need the GPU to render the desktop is because we've decided to make the desktop use 3D features, otherwise the CPU is sufficient. I can't think of a time when I had an issue where my CPU was bogged down rendering the desktop, at least not since Windows 3.1 using a non-accelerated standard VGA card. Screen tearing is a major problem with XP. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 3D has nothing to do with it. If XP was rendered the same way then the same problem would be relieved. However, that would be overkill. So what's wrong with beefing things up a little? Oh great, so now it won't be content to index my documents without my permission, but will now start sneaking out and molesting my network without asking my permission? I hope not. Permission? What are you talking about? Turn off the indexing if you don't like it. One thing that wasn't brought up with the searching is that it's instant. So yes, this will benefit the consumer greatly. |
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#62
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New, Non-Cosmetic Features In Vista -- Ten Good Reasons To Upgrade
Screen tearing is a major problem with XP. Just because you don't see it,
doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 3D has nothing to do with it. If XP was rendered the same way then the same problem would be relieved. However, that would be overkill. So what's wrong with beefing things up a little? You had that one pegged right, not once have I ever noticed a screen tearing issue in XP. Can you give me an example of where this would be noticable (web browsing, video playback, ???). Give me a simple test and I will try it on my XP box and then on my Vista box and see if there is a difference. Even so, can't tearing be solved by simple double-buffering that video cards have been doing for the past decade? This sounds like a minor tweak. I have nothing against beefing up the graphics pipeline, I just fail to see how it is a major selling point of Vista. To me, it looks more-or-less identical to XP, but with transparent window frames. ----------------------------------------------------------- Posted using Android Newsgroup Downloader: .... http://www.sb-software.com/android ----------------------------------------------------------- |
#63
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New, Non-Cosmetic Features In Vista -- Ten Good Reasons To Upgrade
wrote in message ... Screen tearing is a major problem with XP. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 3D has nothing to do with it. If XP was rendered the same way then the same problem would be relieved. However, that would be overkill. So what's wrong with beefing things up a little? You had that one pegged right, not once have I ever noticed a screen tearing issue in XP. Can you give me an example of where this would be noticable (web browsing, video playback, ???). Give me a simple test and I will try it on my XP box and then on my Vista box and see if there is a difference. Even so, can't tearing be solved by simple double-buffering that video cards have been doing for the past decade? This sounds like a minor tweak. I have nothing against beefing up the graphics pipeline, I just fail to see how it is a major selling point of Vista. To me, it looks more-or-less identical to XP, but with transparent window frames. Alot of the upgrades built into Vista are going to be "much needed to some" and "who cares" to others. I have a client who still uses DOS because of a database program he refuses to upgrade. People keep asking on here are the upgrades built into Vista really worth it. Only you can answer that because only you would know if you would really use it. The DX10 graphics engine will improve the interface and video in general even more once ATI and nVidia release cards with the technology builtin. I like the 3d interface. Others are gonna say, "so what?" If you for example only use your computer for basic stuff like say email and don't care about the 3d or advanced searching features then Vista probably won't impress you very much. Jeff |
#64
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New, Non-Cosmetic Features In Vista -- Ten Good Reasons To Upgrade
BINGO!
DSH wrote in message ... Screen tearing is a major problem with XP. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 3D has nothing to do with it. If XP was rendered the same way then the same problem would be relieved. However, that would be overkill. So what's wrong with beefing things up a little? You had that one pegged right, not once have I ever noticed a screen tearing issue in XP. Can you give me an example of where this would be noticable (web browsing, video playback, ???). Give me a simple test and I will try it on my XP box and then on my Vista box and see if there is a difference. Even so, can't tearing be solved by simple double-buffering that video cards have been doing for the past decade? This sounds like a minor tweak. I have nothing against beefing up the graphics pipeline, I just fail to see how it is a major selling point of Vista. To me, it looks more-or-less identical to XP, but with transparent window frames. |
#65
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New, Non-Cosmetic Features In Vista -- Ten Good Reasons To Upgrade
wrote in message
... You had that one pegged right, not once have I ever noticed a screen tearing issue in XP. Can you give me an example of where this would be noticable (web browsing, video playback, ???). Give me a simple test and I will try it on my XP box and then on my Vista box and see if there is a difference. It's not black and white. It depends on the machine. Open a large VS project, open Photoshop, have outlook open and browse the web, now open a large movie. While you're waiting for the movie to start start dragging IE around. Everyone experiences tearing for their own reasons. Usually when explorer.exe starts using too much CPU. Even so, can't tearing be solved by simple double-buffering that video cards have been doing for the past decade? This sounds like a minor tweak. No. I have nothing against beefing up the graphics pipeline, I just fail to see how it is a major selling point of Vista. To me, it looks more-or-less identical to XP, but with transparent window frames. It's not. All the new features as a package are a reason to some. Not all. |
#66
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New, Non-Cosmetic Features In Vista -- Ten Good Reasons To Upgrade
On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 22:47:55 -0800, "Justin" wrote:
wrote in message ... You had that one pegged right, not once have I ever noticed a screen tearing issue in XP. Can you give me an example of where this would be noticable (web browsing, video playback, ???). Give me a simple test and I will try it on my XP box and then on my Vista box and see if there is a difference. It's not black and white. It depends on the machine. Open a large VS project, open Photoshop, have outlook open and browse the web, now open a large movie. While you're waiting for the movie to start start dragging IE around. Everyone experiences tearing for their own reasons. Usually when explorer.exe starts using too much CPU. Wow, I finally discovered what Justin is very good at: Backpedaling. What's so damn funny is there isn't a technical term called "tearing". Did you make it up or did some other dope? You keep getting confused over marketing hype. Too bad. |
#67
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New, Non-Cosmetic Features In Vista -- Ten Good Reasons To Upgrade
Good Point!
He's never explained what he's talking about in intelligible, technical terms -- primarily because he's quite inarticulate. Stand by for more bluster and blather from him. DSH "Adam Albright" wrote in message ... Wow, I finally discovered what Justin is very good at: Backpedaling. What's so damn funny is there isn't a technical term called "tearing". Did you make it up or did some other dope? You keep getting confused over marketing hype. Too bad. |
#68
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New, Non-Cosmetic Features In Vista -- Ten Good Reasons To Upgrade
Tearing is when you go to move or minimize a window and it leaves part of it
still on your desktop. I believe that is what Justin was talking about. Jeff "D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message ... Good Point! He's never explained what he's talking about in intelligible, technical terms -- primarily because he's quite inarticulate. Stand by for more bluster and blather from him. DSH "Adam Albright" wrote in message ... Wow, I finally discovered what Justin is very good at: Backpedaling. What's so damn funny is there isn't a technical term called "tearing". Did you make it up or did some other dope? You keep getting confused over marketing hype. Too bad. |
#69
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New, Non-Cosmetic Features In Vista -- Ten Good Reasons To Upgrade
"Adam Albright" wrote in message ... On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 22:47:55 -0800, "Justin" wrote: wrote in message ... You had that one pegged right, not once have I ever noticed a screen tearing issue in XP. Can you give me an example of where this would be noticable (web browsing, video playback, ???). Give me a simple test and I will try it on my XP box and then on my Vista box and see if there is a difference. It's not black and white. It depends on the machine. Open a large VS project, open Photoshop, have outlook open and browse the web, now open a large movie. While you're waiting for the movie to start start dragging IE around. Everyone experiences tearing for their own reasons. Usually when explorer.exe starts using too much CPU. Wow, I finally discovered what Justin is very good at: Backpedaling. What's so damn funny is there isn't a technical term called "tearing". Did you make it up or did some other dope? You keep getting confused over marketing hype. Too bad. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pro...nces/aero.mspx When using Windows Aero, open windows glide smoothly on your screen when you move or resize them. There are no redraw artifacts, latency, or "tearing" effects that you sometimes see, particularly in windows that display dynamic content such as video. Using Aero will even reduce legacy graphics driver-related problems on your system, giving you an even more confident and stable Windows desktop experience. http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa480220.aspx In Windows XP, applications update their windows directly when the OS requests them to. These requests could be executed asynchronously with respect to the refresh rate of the monitor or to any updates that may be currently running. The effect of these requests is that the user sees windows tearing and re-drawing incorrectly or slowly. The DWM style of window presentation eliminates the tearing artifacts, providing a high quality desktop experience. The benefit to the end user is that the system appears to be more responsive and the experience is cleaner. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_tearing Page tearing is a phenomenon in computer and video games where a previously rendered frame overlaps a newly rendered frame, creating a torn look as two parts of an object - a wall, for example - don't line up. In vertical synchronization (V-sync), the previous frame is held before rendering the next frame, creating a smoother look. The faster the monitor's response time, the less page tearing, the higher the monitor's refresh rate, and the higher the frame rate. http://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=74 Tearing is a display artifact that occurs when images are presented to the screen without regard for the current status of the output circuitry. It occurs because pixels are sent to the screen gradually in book order rather than instantaneously. What happens is that the output DAC reads across the same area of the screen that is bring written to, so the monitor ends up showing a half-updated image. The result is a momentary frame that has half of an old frame and half of a new one, with a clean horizontal split across (the tear). Because the location of the tear varies according to timing, it usually jumps all over the place, which can be distracting. http://www.2seetv.co.uk/acatalog/Glossary_of_Terms.html Tearing - A lateral displacement of the video lines due to sync instability. It appears as though parts of the images have been torn away. |
#70
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New, Non-Cosmetic Features In Vista -- Ten Good Reasons To Upgrade
Much better than my simple definition!
Jeff "MICHAEL" wrote in message ... "Adam Albright" wrote in message ... On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 22:47:55 -0800, "Justin" wrote: wrote in message ... You had that one pegged right, not once have I ever noticed a screen tearing issue in XP. Can you give me an example of where this would be noticable (web browsing, video playback, ???). Give me a simple test and I will try it on my XP box and then on my Vista box and see if there is a difference. It's not black and white. It depends on the machine. Open a large VS project, open Photoshop, have outlook open and browse the web, now open a large movie. While you're waiting for the movie to start start dragging IE around. Everyone experiences tearing for their own reasons. Usually when explorer.exe starts using too much CPU. Wow, I finally discovered what Justin is very good at: Backpedaling. What's so damn funny is there isn't a technical term called "tearing". Did you make it up or did some other dope? You keep getting confused over marketing hype. Too bad. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pro...nces/aero.mspx When using Windows Aero, open windows glide smoothly on your screen when you move or resize them. There are no redraw artifacts, latency, or "tearing" effects that you sometimes see, particularly in windows that display dynamic content such as video. Using Aero will even reduce legacy graphics driver-related problems on your system, giving you an even more confident and stable Windows desktop experience. http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa480220.aspx In Windows XP, applications update their windows directly when the OS requests them to. These requests could be executed asynchronously with respect to the refresh rate of the monitor or to any updates that may be currently running. The effect of these requests is that the user sees windows tearing and re-drawing incorrectly or slowly. The DWM style of window presentation eliminates the tearing artifacts, providing a high quality desktop experience. The benefit to the end user is that the system appears to be more responsive and the experience is cleaner. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_tearing Page tearing is a phenomenon in computer and video games where a previously rendered frame overlaps a newly rendered frame, creating a torn look as two parts of an object - a wall, for example - don't line up. In vertical synchronization (V-sync), the previous frame is held before rendering the next frame, creating a smoother look. The faster the monitor's response time, the less page tearing, the higher the monitor's refresh rate, and the higher the frame rate. http://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=74 Tearing is a display artifact that occurs when images are presented to the screen without regard for the current status of the output circuitry. It occurs because pixels are sent to the screen gradually in book order rather than instantaneously. What happens is that the output DAC reads across the same area of the screen that is bring written to, so the monitor ends up showing a half-updated image. The result is a momentary frame that has half of an old frame and half of a new one, with a clean horizontal split across (the tear). Because the location of the tear varies according to timing, it usually jumps all over the place, which can be distracting. http://www.2seetv.co.uk/acatalog/Glossary_of_Terms.html Tearing - A lateral displacement of the video lines due to sync instability. It appears as though parts of the images have been torn away. |
#71
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New, Non-Cosmetic Features In Vista -- Ten Good Reasons To Upgrade
Wow! I was just in the middle of compiling that when I saw this post.
Thanks Michael! I'll shorten my other reply. "MICHAEL" wrote in message ... "Adam Albright" wrote in message ... On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 22:47:55 -0800, "Justin" wrote: wrote in message ... You had that one pegged right, not once have I ever noticed a screen tearing issue in XP. Can you give me an example of where this would be noticable (web browsing, video playback, ???). Give me a simple test and I will try it on my XP box and then on my Vista box and see if there is a difference. It's not black and white. It depends on the machine. Open a large VS project, open Photoshop, have outlook open and browse the web, now open a large movie. While you're waiting for the movie to start start dragging IE around. Everyone experiences tearing for their own reasons. Usually when explorer.exe starts using too much CPU. Wow, I finally discovered what Justin is very good at: Backpedaling. What's so damn funny is there isn't a technical term called "tearing". Did you make it up or did some other dope? You keep getting confused over marketing hype. Too bad. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pro...nces/aero.mspx When using Windows Aero, open windows glide smoothly on your screen when you move or resize them. There are no redraw artifacts, latency, or "tearing" effects that you sometimes see, particularly in windows that display dynamic content such as video. Using Aero will even reduce legacy graphics driver-related problems on your system, giving you an even more confident and stable Windows desktop experience. http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa480220.aspx In Windows XP, applications update their windows directly when the OS requests them to. These requests could be executed asynchronously with respect to the refresh rate of the monitor or to any updates that may be currently running. The effect of these requests is that the user sees windows tearing and re-drawing incorrectly or slowly. The DWM style of window presentation eliminates the tearing artifacts, providing a high quality desktop experience. The benefit to the end user is that the system appears to be more responsive and the experience is cleaner. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_tearing Page tearing is a phenomenon in computer and video games where a previously rendered frame overlaps a newly rendered frame, creating a torn look as two parts of an object - a wall, for example - don't line up. In vertical synchronization (V-sync), the previous frame is held before rendering the next frame, creating a smoother look. The faster the monitor's response time, the less page tearing, the higher the monitor's refresh rate, and the higher the frame rate. http://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=74 Tearing is a display artifact that occurs when images are presented to the screen without regard for the current status of the output circuitry. It occurs because pixels are sent to the screen gradually in book order rather than instantaneously. What happens is that the output DAC reads across the same area of the screen that is bring written to, so the monitor ends up showing a half-updated image. The result is a momentary frame that has half of an old frame and half of a new one, with a clean horizontal split across (the tear). Because the location of the tear varies according to timing, it usually jumps all over the place, which can be distracting. http://www.2seetv.co.uk/acatalog/Glossary_of_Terms.html Tearing - A lateral displacement of the video lines due to sync instability. It appears as though parts of the images have been torn away. |
#72
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New, Non-Cosmetic Features In Vista -- Ten Good Reasons To Upgrade
Yup, thank Jeff.
When I was talking about tearing....I was talking about tearing. Go figure Adam. Thanks to Michael for his other post discussing tearing. "Jeffrey S. Sparks" wrote in message ... Tearing is when you go to move or minimize a window and it leaves part of it still on your desktop. I believe that is what Justin was talking about. Jeff "D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message ... Good Point! He's never explained what he's talking about in intelligible, technical terms -- primarily because he's quite inarticulate. Stand by for more bluster and blather from him. DSH "Adam Albright" wrote in message ... Wow, I finally discovered what Justin is very good at: Backpedaling. What's so damn funny is there isn't a technical term called "tearing". Did you make it up or did some other dope? You keep getting confused over marketing hype. Too bad. |
#73
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Screen Tearing vs Repainting ( New, Non-Cosmetic Features In Vista -- Ten Good Reasons To Upgrade)
When I was talking about tearing....I was talking about tearing. Go figure
Adam. Well, there's are problem -- we've mixed up two entirely different phenomenon: tearing and repainting. "tearing" is related to frame buffer. Data is being streamed out of the frame buffer onto the screen. If you write to the frame buffer while it is being output, then you get a frame that is some combination of previous and old output. This can be solved with a very simple technique called 'double buffering', where you write to an off-screen buffer and then flip it with the primary buffer during vertical retrace. Video cards have been capable of doing this for a decade or more. "repainting" is the broken way the Windows GDI draws windows. Early on (Windows 3.0 perhaps?) Microsoft made the decision that a window would only paint what's necessary. Non-visible parts of the window were not painted by the application. Thus, when you move a big window across the screen, much unpainted area is exposed and a slurry of WM_PAINT messages are dispatched to the applications. These take a while to process and that's why you see some windows repaint before others. It is NOT the same as screen tearing. "repaint delay" can be solved by having each window draw itself (the whole thing, not just the visible parts) to a per-window off-screen buffer, and having the GDI use those per-window buffers to redraw the main screen. The repaint delay then goes away. If I'm not mistaken, there are other OS that do this (Linux or OS/2? I can't remember). Again, I don't see why we need a fancy video card or a complete redesign to do this. It's as simple as allocating per-window buffers and telling the apps to paint themselves to those buffers. The Microsoft folks probably never considered it an important enough change until they had to start justifying Vista's cost and development time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Posted using Android Newsgroup Downloader: .... http://www.sb-software.com/android ----------------------------------------------------------- |
#74
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Screen Tearing vs Repainting ( New, Non-Cosmetic Features In Vista -- Ten Good Reasons To Upgrade)
Ugh, and around and around we go.
wrote in message ... Well, there's are problem -- we've mixed up two entirely different phenomenon: tearing and repainting. Failed repainting is considered tearing. "repainting" is the broken way the Windows GDI draws windows. No, repainting is what it is. When it breaks it's considered screen tearing. What are you going to tell us next? Windows is the broken way MS let's users use applications? Again, I don't see why we need a fancy video card You don't. There are many cheap DX9 cards that can use Aero just fine. or a complete redesign to do this. It's as simple as allocating per-window buffers and telling the apps to paint themselves to those buffers. There you have it folks! "invader" could have saved us all many headaches over all these years! It took you one day to figure out what took MS many years. The Microsoft folks probably never considered it an important enough change until they had to start justifying Vista's cost and development time. Aero alone doesn't justify Vista which costs the same as XP. Even cheaper if you already invested in XP. Let's bring Michael's post into this branch: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pro...nces/aero.mspx When using Windows Aero, open windows glide smoothly on your screen when you move or resize them. There are no redraw artifacts, latency, or "tearing" effects that you sometimes see, particularly in windows that display dynamic content such as video. Using Aero will even reduce legacy graphics driver-related problems on your system, giving you an even more confident and stable Windows desktop experience. http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa480220.aspx In Windows XP, applications update their windows directly when the OS requests them to. These requests could be executed asynchronously with respect to the refresh rate of the monitor or to any updates that may be currently running. The effect of these requests is that the user sees windows tearing and re-drawing incorrectly or slowly. The DWM style of window presentation eliminates the tearing artifacts, providing a high quality desktop experience. The benefit to the end user is that the system appears to be more responsive and the experience is cleaner. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_tearing Page tearing is a phenomenon in computer and video games where a previously rendered frame overlaps a newly rendered frame, creating a torn look as two parts of an object - a wall, for example - don't line up. In vertical synchronization (V-sync), the previous frame is held before rendering the next frame, creating a smoother look. The faster the monitor's response time, the less page tearing, the higher the monitor's refresh rate, and the higher the frame rate. http://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=74 Tearing is a display artifact that occurs when images are presented to the screen without regard for the current status of the output circuitry. It occurs because pixels are sent to the screen gradually in book order rather than instantaneously. What happens is that the output DAC reads across the same area of the screen that is bring written to, so the monitor ends up showing a half-updated image. The result is a momentary frame that has half of an old frame and half of a new one, with a clean horizontal split across (the tear). Because the location of the tear varies according to timing, it usually jumps all over the place, which can be distracting. http://www.2seetv.co.uk/acatalog/Glossary_of_Terms.html Tearing - A lateral displacement of the video lines due to sync instability. It appears as though parts of the images have been torn away. |
#75
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Screen Tearing vs Repainting ( New, Non-Cosmetic Features In Vista -- Ten Good Reasons To Upgrade)
No, repainting is what it is. When it breaks it's considered screen
tearing. What are you going to tell us next? Windows is the broken way MS let's users use applications? "screen tearing" is a technical term that describes the phenomenon related to drawing in the primary frame buffer while it is being output to the monitor. The fact that people are misusing the term does not make it valid. Furthermore, the repainting didn't "fail" or "break" (if it did, it would be a bug). It was delayed, which is exactly the way it is designed by Microsoft to work. I refererred to Microsoft's solution as a "broken" technique implying the technique is bad, not that the repainting itself failed. There you have it folks! "invader" could have saved us all many headaches over all these years! It took you one day to figure out what took MS many years. I have news for you -- most important problems in computer science were solved decades ago. Most of the technology used in Windows Vista is already old. Such is the nature of computer science. Microsoft has a research department. They read technical journals and participate in conferences. To pretend that Microsoft is the first one to think of these techniques is silly. The same can be said of nearly all the new technology in Vista (UAC, Shadow copies, image backup, disk encryption, desktop search, ...) Let's bring Michael's post into this branch: Very well, he has quoted three accurate definitions of screen tearing and two instances where Microsoft has misused the term to describe repaint delay in the GDI. ----------------------------------------------------------- Posted using Android Newsgroup Downloader: .... http://www.sb-software.com/android ----------------------------------------------------------- |
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