Believe it or not but PC is coming back...

You don't pronounce the "t" in "tsunami"? I do, and I hear many other
people saying it.
Actually, I completely failed to understand what Seymore4Head meant by
including tsunami, until you, Wolf, and Steve (Steve first) pointed out
that apparently S4H mispronounces it...

I don't know who that is - are they using the "soonahmee" version,
with no discernible "t"? That's common enough that I wouldn't call
it a mispronunciation.

The way the Japanese (or at least the ones that got on Youtube) say it
surprised me, when I heard the word a lot after the 2011 earthquake.
Rather like "tyoonahmee", but there is a slight fricativeness going
along with the palatalization - not enough to constitute an "s" sound,
though.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 http://www.campin.me.uk Twitter: JackCampin

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 12:31:44 -0500, Wolf K wrote:

If you infer that I'm a language geek, you're right. I love language. I
caught the infection from my father, who said that language was the most
fascinating and complex invention of the human species.

I did so infer, and I am similarly guilty.

I enjoyed the anecdote about your father (even though I clipped it
here).

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 15:34:14 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:

On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 14:25:29 -0800, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 11:53:02 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:

On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 08:02:27 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 08:25:31 -0500, Wolf K
wrote:


Er, in most American and Canadian dialects merry, marry, and Mary all
rhyme with hairy.



That's certainly common in some parts of the USA, but I wouldn't say
"most." They're not the same when I pronounce them, and I know many
people from all over the USA who are the same as I am in that regard.

I don't know about Canada.

The first three words sound 100% identical to me, with their meanings only
being evident via context, and of course each of them rhymes with the last
word. If they don't sound that way to you, can you give examples of words
that each does rhyme with, so that I can hear what you mean?

No. You can't without help hear the differences, because, like nearly
all speakers of all languages, you hear "phonemes", not distinct sounds.

It takes multi-lingual or multi dialect experience or training to break
out of that.

All the words Ken or Wolf or I would give you would to your ears rhyme
with exactly how you hear the first set that Wolf posted.

A phoneme is an equivalence class of sounds. Every member of that class
is to most relevant speakers the same sound. Which phonemes are present
is unique to each dialect, even each idiolect, of a given language. The
's' phoneme of Spanish, for example, is not identical to the 's' phoneme
of English, and Spanish doesn't even have a 'ch' phoneme (as in
"church") in most dialects.

You seem to be shutting the door. Frequently, there's some kind of
exaggeration that illustrates the point, but apparently not here. So what
I'm 'hearing' is that it's not a case of people saying these words
differently, but rather people are hearing them differently. I'm ok with
that.

Both.

I say "merry, marry, and Mary" differently and people hear them as being
the same. Those same people also pronounce all three the same, rhyming
with my pronunciation of Mary. It can get quite confusing to me when
they use words that I distinguish by those vowels, even after years of
experience...

Anecdote time:

When I first moved to Buffalo, one of my classmates told a joke, a
homophobic joke by today's standards.

Briefly: This guy asks someone on the street for directions to the
"Delaware Avenue Ferry". The man replies "That'th me".

I absolutely couldn't understand why someone would ask for directions to
the "Delaware Avenue Fairy".

Also then: in my high school was a guy who had lost all of his hair,
even eyelashes and eyebrows, from a childhood illness. They called him
"Hairy", which sounded very cruel to me, until I finally caught on that
his name was Harry, and that's how they said it in Buffalo...As it was,
the truth was ironic enough.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 18:04:42 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| Not sure what I grew up calling them - fizzy drinks I think;

Interesting. That's one of the options listed at the
American chart I linked. Maybe those people were
children of Brits.

| And I gather that "soda" is a common term for them
| in much of NA.

Soda and pop are both common, though I had never
heard of either in childhood.


And in same parts of the USA, "coke" is the common name for it, even
if it's not Coca Cola.

To me, it's soda.

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 14:59:40 -0800, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 15:34:13 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:

On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 11:28:56 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 11:53:02 -0600, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 08:02:27 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 08:25:31 -0500, Wolf K
wrote:


Er, in most American and Canadian dialects merry, marry, and Mary all
rhyme with hairy.



That's certainly common in some parts of the USA, but I wouldn't say
"most." They're not the same when I pronounce them, and I know many
people from all over the USA who are the same as I am in that regard.

I don't know about Canada.

The first three words sound 100% identical to me, with their meanings only
being evident via context, and of course each of them rhymes with the last
word. If they don't sound that way to you, can you give examples of words
that each does rhyme with, so that I can hear what you mean?



Sure.

Merry - Jerry, berry, ferry.

Marry - Harry, Larry, carry.

Mary - hairy, fairy, dairy.

LOL I thought that would help, but instead all it did was show me 12 words
that rhyme perfectly with one another. I guess I'm applying my own accent as
I read them. Thanks for trying. :-)

As I said...


And as I was afraid that was what he would think. That's why I gave
three examples of each, although that clearly wasn't enough.

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 15:06:28 -0800, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Dec 2014 06:53:35 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:

On 21/12/2014 6:48 am, Seymore4Head wrote:

t as in tsunami
g an in gnome
p as in pneumonia
m as in mnemonic

You don't pronounce the "t" in "tsunami"? I do, and I hear many other
people saying it. Same with "tsetse", although that is not a word
commonly heard these days.

Actually, I completely failed to understand what Seymore4Head meant by
including tsunami, until you, Wolf, and Steve (Steve first) pointed out
that apparently S4H mispronounces it...


Are there those who say something like "sunami"? I've never heard it.

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 18:23:53 -0500, Seymore4Head
wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 15:06:28 -0800, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Dec 2014 06:53:35 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:

On 21/12/2014 6:48 am, Seymore4Head wrote:

t as in tsunami
g an in gnome
p as in pneumonia
m as in mnemonic

You don't pronounce the "t" in "tsunami"? I do, and I hear many other
people saying it. Same with "tsetse", although that is not a word
commonly heard these days.

As I have said, this came from a movie. For the record, I do
mispronounce it though.

How about
p as in pterosaur


The "p" is silent, isn't it? (I could look it up, but I'm too lazy.)

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 23:26:01 +0000, Jack Campin
wrote:

You don't pronounce the "t" in "tsunami"? I do, and I hear many other
people saying it.
Actually, I completely failed to understand what Seymore4Head meant by
including tsunami, until you, Wolf, and Steve (Steve first) pointed out
that apparently S4H mispronounces it...

I don't know who that is - are they using the "soonahmee" version,
with no discernible "t"? That's common enough that I wouldn't call
it a mispronunciation.


It might be common, but as far as I know, I've never heard it.

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 15:16:30 -0800, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 08:26:57 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 17:38:06 -0800, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 01:26:41 +0100, James Hogg wrote:

Ken Blake wrote:
On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 15:07:45 -0800, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

Seymore4Head led me to notice that I was careless in my last remark.

Spanish *has* the 'ch' phoneme; the one it lacks is the 'sh' phoneme, as
in "share".

And all (almost all?) languages beside English lack the "th."

... besides English, Spanish, Icelandic, Greek, Welsh, ...

Arabic too. It has both a voiced and unvoiced 'theta' and an emphatic
one. Dialects may vary, especially with the last one, however.

OK, but considering that "there are roughly 6,500 spoken languages in
the world today"
(http://www.infoplease.com/askeds/man...anguages.html), I stick
with my *almost* all.

Given that "there are roughly 6,500 spoken languages in the world today"
it might be rather foolhardy to generalize on the basis of a dozen or so
languages :-)


And not only do I know nothing about the great majority of the 6,500
languages (not even their names) I still think I'm right. G

On Mon, 22 Dec 2014 07:02:52 +0800, Robert Bannister
wrote:

On 22/12/2014 2:47 am, Ken Blake wrote:
On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 18:11:15 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Ken Blake
writes:
[]
"Ch" in German is pronounced two different ways, depending on the
word. The "ch" in "ach" is easy for most English speakers, but the
"ch" in "ich" is hard.

If you'd heard as many even otherwise-intelligent British people as I
have pronounce the German composer "Bak" (or "Bark"), ...


I've heard people say that many times in the USA too. Nevertheless, my
point that for an English speaker, "ach" (or "Bach") is easier to
pronounce than "ich" still stands.

I studied German in College, and throughout the two years I studied,
there were some in my class who pronounced "ich" with the "ch" of
"ach."

There are many Germans who pronounce it "isch",


Hard to write the pronunciation I learned in English. That might be
close to it, but I wouldn't write it that way.


and not a few who
actually do say "ick".


Yes, that's a third way. If I remember correctly, that's the Berlin
pronunciation (someone will surely correct me, if that's wrong).

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 18:23:53 -0500, Seymore4Head wrote:

As I have said, this came from a movie. For the record, I do
mispronounce it though.

I realize you said that; all I meant is that my friend that I mentioned
would never admit that he got the thing from somewhere else.

How about
p as in pterosaur

That'll never fly :-)

I apologize - I shouldn't have said mispronounce, rather that I didn't
realize how you say it.

For one thing, every time I accuse my YL of a mispronunciation, the
dictionary offers several pronunciations, including hers :-)

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 15:24:07 -0800, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 11:47:24 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 18:11:15 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Ken Blake
writes:
[]
"Ch" in German is pronounced two different ways, depending on the
word. The "ch" in "ach" is easy for most English speakers, but the
"ch" in "ich" is hard.

If you'd heard as many even otherwise-intelligent British people as I
have pronounce the German composer "Bak" (or "Bark"), ...

I've heard people say that many times in the USA too. Nevertheless, my
point that for an English speaker, "ach" (or "Bach") is easier to
pronounce than "ich" still stands.

I studied German in College, and throughout the two years I studied,
there were some in my class who pronounced "ich" with the "ch" of
"ach."

That's because they learned Yiddish first.


Exactly right! Almost invariably, they were Jews.

By the way, my ancestry is also Jewish (despite my non-Jewish last
name). But I don't practice Judaism, and know no Yiddish (so I didn't
have the problem they did).


OK, probably not, but in Yiddish, ich has the back consonant[1]. At
least from the speakers I heard...

[1] I've been saying back and front instead of palatal and velar. Please
forgive me :-)


Sie sind vergeben (is that close to the Yiddish? I'm not sure). g

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 23:26:01 +0000, Jack Campin wrote:

You don't pronounce the "t" in "tsunami"? I do, and I hear many other
people saying it.
Actually, I completely failed to understand what Seymore4Head meant by
including tsunami, until you, Wolf, and Steve (Steve first) pointed out
that apparently S4H mispronounces it...

I don't know who that is - are they using the "soonahmee" version,
with no discernible "t"? That's common enough that I wouldn't call
it a mispronunciation.

OTOH, I jut apologized to S4H for saying "mispronunciation" :-)

The way the Japanese (or at least the ones that got on Youtube) say it
surprised me, when I heard the word a lot after the 2011 earthquake.
Rather like "tyoonahmee", but there is a slight fricativeness going
along with the palatalization - not enough to constitute an "s" sound,
though.

There are some Spanish dialects where 's' does something like that, so
that "despues" sounds (to my ear) like "dehhpues", where I used the
double h to represent a breathy sound.

BTW: The usual signature delimiter is 2 hyphens and a space followed by
a newline, which prevents the sig from being quoted in a reply.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 http://www.campin.me.uk Twitter: JackCampin


--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Mon, 22 Dec 2014 06:57:53 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:

On 21/12/2014 7:03 am, Gene E. Bloch wrote:

Spanish has the 'ch' phoneme as in English "church" but not the 'sh'
phoneme, as in I was shtupid :-)

Phew! I was worried for a moment. I don't say many Spanish words, but I
thought I knew how to say "muchas gracias".

I have to say that once I realized what I had committed, I was startled
that no one got on my case for that egregious error...

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Sun, 21 Dec 2014 15:38:16 -0800, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:


Anecdote time:

When I first moved to Buffalo, one of my classmates told a joke, a
homophobic joke by today's standards.

Briefly: This guy asks someone on the street for directions to the
"Delaware Avenue Ferry". The man replies "That'th me".

I absolutely couldn't understand why someone would ask for directions to
the "Delaware Avenue Fairy".

Also then: in my high school was a guy who had lost all of his hair,
even eyelashes and eyebrows, from a childhood illness. They called him
"Hairy", which sounded very cruel to me, until I finally caught on that
his name was Harry, and that's how they said it in Buffalo...As it was,
the truth was ironic enough.


Reminds me of the story of the two guys who rushed off the ship when
it arrived in Oahu, and said to the first person they could find:

"We have a bet. Tell us how you pronounce it--Hawaii or Havaii."

"Havaii," he said

"Great," said one of the men. "I won my bet. Thank you very much."

"You're velkum."