Power outage effects

Whoa-----not me. I misinterpreted the post I responded to. I thought you
meant the UPS 'runs' on AC.
(Must be plugged in to supply voltage to the computer when power fails) My
mistake.
"John John (MVP)" wrote in message
...
Oh for crying out loud! If you insist on running your computer off deep
cycle batteries then design your power supply solution around that, don't
try to mickey mouse a factory UPS to use batteries it wasn't designed to
use!

John

Unknown wrote:

Think John, think. What is the purpose of the UPS? Supposing you lost
your AC power, where would you get the AC power for the UPS?
"John John (MVP)" wrote in message
...

Buffalo wrote:


John John (MVP) wrote:


Buffalo wrote:


Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
[snip]



I think everyone should have a UPS for his computer, but
*especially* people like you who live where there are power outages.


Hey Ken, have you or anyone you know ever replaced the battery for
an UPS with just a lead acid battery (small car or motorcycle
battery)? You could just set it next to the UPS unit and connect it
with clamps.
You could probably really extend the time that your PC would run
during a power failure. The more powerful UPS units are very
expensive and I'm not sure that the main difference is just the size
of the battery or not.

Computers and regular UPS don't work on 12v DC current, they mostly
all run on standard household current. With a simple plug adapter
you can run a laptop on a car battery but you can't run desktop
equipment off automobile batteries. You would need to run the car
battery through a power inverter. And of course, like Ken said, who
wants a lead acid battery in the house?

John


Wrong John.
How do you think UPS systems work?

How exactly do *you* think that it works? If you think that you can run
a computer on 12 volts DC current, and if you think that you can charge
UPS batteries with a 12 volt car battery then you don't know how things
work. Unless specially built, the input requirements for almost all UPS
systems is standard household current.

John

John John (MVP) wrote:
Buffalo wrote:

John John (MVP) wrote:
[snip]

Why would one even bother buying an off the shelf UPS if they wanted
to use deep cycle batteries for their emergency power supply?

John


To make the UPS supply power last longer during a black-out and
because of the software supplied with the UPS.
But never mind, I think we are talking about two different things.
Bye
PS: It's the size (capacity) of the battery in the UPS that LIMITS
the time it can supply power to the PC during a power failure.

Yes, we all know that the size of the battery will determine how long
the UPS can supply power. What you don't understand is that almost
everything in a cheap $100 UPS is woefully inadequate to properly
charge and maintain a 100+ amp hour deep cycle battery.

John
You assume way too much.

John John (MVP) wrote:
Buffalo wrote:

John John (MVP) wrote:
[snip]

Why would one even bother buying an off the shelf UPS if they wanted
to use deep cycle batteries for their emergency power supply?

John


To make the UPS supply power last longer during a black-out and
because of the software supplied with the UPS.
But never mind, I think we are talking about two different things.
Bye
PS: It's the size (capacity) of the battery in the UPS that LIMITS
the time it can supply power to the PC during a power failure.

Yes, we all know that the size of the battery will determine how long
the UPS can supply power. What you don't understand is that almost
everything in a cheap $100 UPS is woefully inadequate to properly
charge and maintain a 100+ amp hour deep cycle battery.

John
You assume way too much.

John John (MVP) wrote:
Buffalo wrote:
John John (MVP) wrote:

Oh for crying out loud! If you insist on running your computer off
deep cycle batteries then design your power supply solution around
that, don't try to mickey mouse a factory UPS to use batteries it
wasn't designed to use!

John


I think it's feasible and I was just asking.

The battery charger inside a $100 UPS is designed to charge the 5 to
10-amp hour battery that it is designed to use, do you seriously think
that it will be sufficient to properly charge a 100-amp hour or more
deep cycle battery? Do you think that you can properly charge a
100-amp hour deep cycle battery with a 1 or 2 amp trickle charge?

John
Where the hell did you come up with a 100AH battery.
Again you are assuming way too much.
Please stick to what you know.
If your really a MVP, stick with that.
Thanks

Buffalo wrote:

John John (MVP) wrote:

Buffalo wrote:

John John (MVP) wrote:


Oh for crying out loud! If you insist on running your computer off
deep cycle batteries then design your power supply solution around
that, don't try to mickey mouse a factory UPS to use batteries it
wasn't designed to use!

John


I think it's feasible and I was just asking.

The battery charger inside a $100 UPS is designed to charge the 5 to
10-amp hour battery that it is designed to use, do you seriously think
that it will be sufficient to properly charge a 100-amp hour or more
deep cycle battery? Do you think that you can properly charge a
100-amp hour deep cycle battery with a 1 or 2 amp trickle charge?

John

Where the hell did you come up with a 100AH battery.

Who was it that said "...you could probably use a sealed marine
battery..."? Do you even have an inkling of the ratings and size
classification of "marine batteries"?

Again you are assuming way too much.

I'm not assuming, it's plainly obvious that don't know very much about
how a UPS works and you know even less about how batteries are charged
and maintained! A $100 UPS couldn't even charge and maintain a small
car battery.

John

John John (MVP) wrote:
Buffalo wrote:

John John (MVP) wrote:

Buffalo wrote:

John John (MVP) wrote:


Oh for crying out loud! If you insist on running your computer
off deep cycle batteries then design your power supply solution
around that, don't try to mickey mouse a factory UPS to use
batteries it wasn't designed to use!

John


I think it's feasible and I was just asking.

The battery charger inside a $100 UPS is designed to charge the 5 to
10-amp hour battery that it is designed to use, do you seriously
think that it will be sufficient to properly charge a 100-amp hour
or more deep cycle battery? Do you think that you can properly
charge a 100-amp hour deep cycle battery with a 1 or 2 amp trickle
charge?

John

Where the hell did you come up with a 100AH battery.

Who was it that said "...you could probably use a sealed marine
battery..."? Do you even have an inkling of the ratings and size
classification of "marine batteries"?

Again you are assuming way too much.

I'm not assuming, it's plainly obvious that don't know very much about
how a UPS works and you know even less about how batteries are charged
and maintained! A $100 UPS couldn't even charge and maintain a small
car battery.

John
How would you know??
Do you even know the charging rate is in $100 catorgory UPS?
Did you know that you can charge a 600AH car battery with a trickle charger
putting out only 1 amp?
Do you know anything about electricity except to respect it? ( Damn, I hope
you do.)
Do you know the difference between a 'sealed' lead-acid battery, a
motorcycle lead-acid battery, a car lead-acid battery, a marine lead-acid
battery, etc? I really doubt it.
Stick to what you know.
Cheers.
Next time don't reply to stuff you have no inkling about.

EXAMPLE:
I said:
" Hey Ken, have you or anyone you know ever replaced the battery for an UPS
with just a lead acid battery (small car or motorcycle battery)? You
could
just set it next to the UPS unit and connect it with clamps.
You could probably really extend the time that your PC would run during a
power failure. The more powerful UPS units are very expensive and I'm not
sure that the main difference is just the size of the battery or not.

YOU said:
"Computers and regular UPS don't work on 12v DC current, they mostly all
run on standard household current. With a simple plug adapter you can
run a laptop on a car battery but you can't run desktop equipment off
automobile batteries. You would need to run the car battery through a
power inverter. And of course, like Ken said, who wants a lead acid
battery in the house?

John"

Read it three times or more and maybe you will get what I was asking.

Buffalo wrote:

How would you know??

I would know because as part of our work we have sold and installed
battery packs and charging systems for use with commercial aircrafts and
emergency vehicles. Most deep cell batteries need a minimum of 10 to 20
amps to be charged.


Do you even know the charging rate is in $100 catorgory UPS?

I can tell you that during the "bulk" charge stage, the stage where a
battery can be charged at its fastest possible rate, the current should
not exceed 20-25% of the battery's amp rating, any more than that will
cause the battery to overheat and cause dangerous charging conditions
that may cause the battery to explode. So now just look at the size of
the batteries in your UPS and then using simple math you figure out the
probable maximum charge rate of the UPS, surely you should now be able
to figure that out for yourself.


Did you know that you can charge a 600AH car battery with a trickle charger
putting out only 1 amp?

Oh really, the battery had better be nearly new and not very badly
discharged, a car battery that is in bad shape or in a badly discharged
state cannot be charged at a 1 amp rate, the discharge rate of the
battery will probably be greater than the charge rate. You should ask
your mechanic about this and listen to what he has to tell you, maybe
you will learn something.


Do you know anything about electricity except to respect it? ( Damn, I hope
you do.)
Do you know the difference between a 'sealed' lead-acid battery, a
motorcycle lead-acid battery, a car lead-acid battery, a marine lead-acid
battery, etc?

Let me see, I learned about marine batteries during the 10 years that I
worked in a shipyard, where did you learn about marine batteries and how
to charge them?


I really doubt it.
Stick to what you know.
Cheers.
Next time don't reply to stuff you have no inkling about.

You obviously don't know as much as you think about UPS, batteries and
battery charging systems, if you had you would have never even bothered
to ask your question in the first place. As for my not getting what you
were asking, I thought that only an idiot would try to bodge an
automobile battery onto a computer UPS, I hadn't thought of you as that
kind of an idiot. All I can tell you now is that being that you already
know the answer to your question why don't you just proceed with your
plan and find out for yourself how well your bodged up UPS will work!

John

John John (MVP) wrote:
Buffalo wrote:

How would you know??

I would know because as part of our work we have sold and installed
battery packs and charging systems for use with commercial aircrafts
and emergency vehicles. Most deep cell batteries need a minimum of
10 to 20 amps to be charged.


Do you even know the charging rate is in $100 catorgory UPS?

I can tell you that during the "bulk" charge stage, the stage where a
battery can be charged at its fastest possible rate, the current
should not exceed 20-25% of the battery's amp rating, any more than
that will cause the battery to overheat and cause dangerous charging
conditions that may cause the battery to explode. So now just look
at the size of the batteries in your UPS and then using simple math
you figure out the probable maximum charge rate of the UPS, surely
you should now be able to figure that out for yourself.


Did you know that you can charge a 600AH car battery with a trickle
charger putting out only 1 amp?

Oh really, the battery had better be nearly new and not very badly
discharged, a car battery that is in bad shape or in a badly
discharged state cannot be charged at a 1 amp rate, the discharge
rate of the battery will probably be greater than the charge rate.
You should ask your mechanic about this and listen to what he has to
tell you, maybe you will learn something.


Do you know anything about electricity except to respect it? ( Damn,
I hope you do.)
Do you know the difference between a 'sealed' lead-acid battery, a
motorcycle lead-acid battery, a car lead-acid battery, a marine
lead-acid battery, etc?

Let me see, I learned about marine batteries during the 10 years that
I worked in a shipyard, where did you learn about marine batteries
and how to charge them?


I really doubt it.
Stick to what you know.
Cheers.
Next time don't reply to stuff you have no inkling about.

You obviously don't know as much as you think about UPS, batteries and
battery charging systems, if you had you would have never even
bothered to ask your question in the first place. As for my not
getting what you were asking, I thought that only an idiot would try
to bodge an automobile battery onto a computer UPS, I hadn't thought
of you as that kind of an idiot. All I can tell you now is that
being that you already know the answer to your question why don't you
just proceed with your plan and find out for yourself how well your
bodged up UPS will work!

John
You haven't told me one thing that I didn't already know.
Stick to software and you'll be great.
You are way too arrogant and ignorant to reply to my original question.
Read it again and again and again.
Pretty soon, you will get it.
You talk a good game, but that's probably how you got that MVP rating. Pure
BS.

John John (MVP) wrote:
Buffalo wrote:

How would you know??

I would know because as part of our work we have sold and installed
battery packs and charging systems for use with commercial aircrafts
and emergency vehicles. Most deep cell batteries need a minimum of
10 to 20 amps to be charged.

That is possibly correct. I should have never mentioned them because their
main purpose is to withstand many totally discharge and recharges. Unlikely
for a UPS type need.


Do you even know the charging rate is in $100 catorgory UPS?

I can tell you that during the "bulk" charge stage, the stage where a
battery can be charged at its fastest possible rate, the current
should not exceed 20-25% of the battery's amp rating, any more than
that will cause the battery to overheat and cause dangerous charging
conditions that may cause the battery to explode. So now just look
at the size of the batteries in your UPS and then using simple math
you figure out the probable maximum charge rate of the UPS, surely
you should now be able to figure that out for yourself.


This again shows your ignorance of what it takes to keep a battery charged
or even to charge it at a very slow rate.
Again you are assuming that a PSU battery needs to be recharged at the
'fastest' possible rate. Total BS.
It can be charged at a much lower rate (around 1 amp) and this is much
easier on the battery.
You are just a talker who shows his ignorance on the topic.


Did you know that you can charge a 600AH car battery with a trickle
charger putting out only 1 amp?

Oh really, the battery had better be nearly new and not very badly
discharged, a car battery that is in bad shape or in a badly
discharged state cannot be charged at a 1 amp rate, the discharge
rate of the battery will probably be greater than the charge rate.
You should ask your mechanic about this and listen to what he has to
tell you, maybe you will learn something.

Yeah, usually the batteries in UPS units are used very hard and can be
recharged at a very low rate.
You are actually correct on the statement that a battery in bad shape will
probably not accept a charge that can only max out at 1 amp.
I'm amazed you finally got something right.
I fix my own stuff, unlike you, who can afford a mechanic because you
probably don't possess the mechanical sense,or ability, to even tune up your
own vehicle, let alone know how to change a flat.



Do you know anything about electricity except to respect it? ( Damn,
I hope you do.)
Do you know the difference between a 'sealed' lead-acid battery, a
motorcycle lead-acid battery, a car lead-acid battery, a marine
lead-acid battery, etc?

Let me see, I learned about marine batteries during the 10 years that
I worked in a shipyard, where did you learn about marine batteries
and how to charge them?


So you learn about the ins and outs of marine batteries by working in a
shipyard.
C'mon now.



I really doubt it.
Stick to what you know.
Cheers.
Next time don't reply to stuff you have no inkling about.

You obviously don't know as much as you think about UPS, batteries and
battery charging systems, if you had you would have never even
bothered to ask your question in the first place.

You didn't even understand my inquery (question) based on your inane
response.
Let me repeat it:
"YOU said:
"Computers and regular UPS don't work on 12v DC current, they mostly all
run on standard household current. With a simple plug adapter you can
run a laptop on a car battery but you can't run desktop equipment off
automobile batteries. You would need to run the car battery through a
power inverter. And of course, like Ken said, who wants a lead acid
battery in the house?

John"
Total BS answer by someone that did not understand the question. If you
still don't understand the question, refer to it again.


As for my not
getting what you were asking, I thought that only an idiot would try
to bodge an automobile battery onto a computer UPS, I hadn't thought
of you as that kind of an idiot.

Again you give the answer of an arrogant BS artist, not that you are one,
you just act and sound like one.



All I can tell you now is that
being that you already know the answer to your question why don't you
just proceed with your plan and find out for yourself how well your
bodged up UPS will work!

John

Why don't you just get a good nights rest and admit you are wrong and have
acted like an idiot because you can not accept that you misread and that you
are the real IDIOT, at least this time.

Buffalo wrote:

This again shows your ignorance of what it takes to keep a battery charged
or even to charge it at a very slow rate.
Again you are assuming that a PSU battery needs to be recharged at the
'fastest' possible rate. Total BS.
It can be charged at a much lower rate (around 1 amp) and this is much
easier on the battery.
You are just a talker who shows his ignorance on the topic.

You really don't get it, do you? Most small computer PSU's are fitted
with 5 to 10 amp/hour batteries, these small capacity batteries can be
charged at a very low amp rate, like the 1 amp that you mentioned.
Bigger batteries such as automobile batteries cannot be effectively
charged at such a low rate, especially not if the battery is discharged
to any significant amount or if the battery is older and in a poor
state. A small 2 amp charge rate is sufficient to charge a small
motorcycle battery but it isn't much of any good for a bigger car
battery, all that it is good for on these bigger batteries it to
maintain a properly charged battery at its current charge level, if the
battery is only slightly discharged and in good shape then such a small
charge rate will allow you to top off and maintain the battery,
otherwise forget about charging a car battery at this low charge rate,
it just isn't practically feasible, if it can even charge the battery it
will take an eternity to charge it!

What I am telling you is that if you want to use a deep cycle battery or
a regular car battery for your UPS battery you will have to plan your
charging needs, you will not be able to charge these kinds of batteries
with the UPS, you will have to invest in a charger that delivers
adequate charging power to do the job, a "slow" charge on a discharged
100 amp hour battery takes more than 24 hours at 10 amps. If you don't
believe any of that then maybe you should hear it from a company that
builds and sells automobile battery chargers:
http://www.schumacherproducts.com/faq?id=0004

I have nothing else to add to this conversation, do as you please with
the information and do as you please with your car battery and your UPS.

John

John John (MVP) wrote:
[snip]
You really don't get it, do you? Most small computer PSU's are fitted
with 5 to 10 amp/hour batteries, these small capacity batteries can be
charged at a very low amp rate, like the 1 amp that you mentioned.
Bigger batteries such as automobile batteries cannot be effectively
charged at such a low rate, especially not if the battery is
discharged to any significant amount or if the battery is older and
in a poor state. A small 2 amp charge rate is sufficient to charge a
small motorcycle battery but it isn't much of any good for a bigger
car battery, all that it is good for on these bigger batteries it to
maintain a properly charged battery at its current charge level, if
the battery is only slightly discharged and in good shape then such a
small charge rate will allow you to top off and maintain the battery,
otherwise forget about charging a car battery at this low charge rate,
it just isn't practically feasible, if it can even charge the battery
it will take an eternity to charge it!

More conjecture and speculation. I have brought back larger batteries by
using a 2 amp max charge on them when they were almost dead.


What I am telling you is that if you want to use a deep cycle battery

A bad choice on my part.

or a regular car battery for your UPS battery you will have to plan
your charging needs, you will not be able to charge these kinds of
batteries with the UPS, you will have to invest in a charger that
delivers adequate charging power to do the job, a "slow" charge on a
discharged 100 amp hour battery takes more than 24 hours at 10 amps.


It should read 'totally discharged' and 'may' take more than 24 hrs,
although it would most likely be much quicker than that.

If you don't believe any of that then maybe you should hear it from a
company that builds and sells automobile battery chargers:
http://www.schumacherproducts.com/faq?id=0004

I have nothing else to add to this conversation, do as you please with
the information and do as you please with your car battery and your
UPS.

John

My sole purpose was to see if I could possibly use a bigger battery than the
one that came in my UPS. It is time to replace its battery and I wanted the
UPS to supply power longer (perhaps 7-10 min) during a power outage without
spending too many extra dollars. The main difference in a lower output rated
UPS and a somewhat larger one, just seems to be the size of the battery
(physical and rating).
I was asking if anyone had tried the above and all I got was a lecture from
you, who didn't EVEN understand the original question.
You know basically nothing about the subject, yet you continue to prattle on
like you are some kind on expert on the subject.
Yes, I can use Google too. and that is where I will most likely find my
answer.
Sorry for wasting your and anyone elses time.

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 08:50:37 -0700, "Buffalo" wrote:

My sole purpose was to see if I could possibly use a bigger battery than the
one that came in my UPS. It is time to replace its battery and I wanted the
UPS to supply power longer (perhaps 7-10 min) during a power outage without
spending too many extra dollars. The main difference in a lower output rated
UPS and a somewhat larger one, just seems to be the size of the battery
(physical and rating).

The answer is that you can, *IF* you know what you are doing and know something
about the charging and battery specifications on the UPS you will be using.

People have used the inverter in a UPS, along with a larger than original
battery, in various types of off-grid applications.

The usual type of car battery is not really safe to use inside a dwelling. But
there are various types of sealed lead-acid batteries which could be used (gel
cell or AGM). You might be able to pick up something used at a reasonable
price.

Try using Google to search some of the renewable energy news groups for more
information.
--ron

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 08:50:37 -0700, "Buffalo"
wrote:

My sole purpose was to see if I could possibly use a bigger battery
than the one that came in my UPS. It is time to replace its battery
and I wanted the UPS to supply power longer (perhaps 7-10 min)
during a power outage without spending too many extra dollars. The
main difference in a lower output rated UPS and a somewhat larger
one, just seems to be the size of the battery (physical and rating).

The answer is that you can, *IF* you know what you are doing and know
something about the charging and battery specifications on the UPS
you will be using.

People have used the inverter in a UPS, along with a larger than
original battery, in various types of off-grid applications.

The usual type of car battery is not really safe to use inside a
dwelling. But there are various types of sealed lead-acid batteries
which could be used (gel cell or AGM). You might be able to pick up
something used at a reasonable price.

Try using Google to search some of the renewable energy news groups
for more information.
ron

Thank you for the only common sense reply I have received.
Yes, sealed lead-acid batteries are the much perferred choice.