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O.T. HD, PSU review:



 
 
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  #61  
Old December 15th 18, 08:21 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

Hmmmmm I hadn't thought of it like that,....

I was actually buying this as a backup because
the computers etc still come up but from what
you've said they're vulnerable right now.

I think I'll do just that and replace the APC
and see if the light goes out or green.

In passing the number (2) Green Protection Circuitry
indicator in the center is green on mine.

I'll let you know what happens after I switch them.

Thanks,
Robert


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  #62  
Old December 16th 18, 05:20 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

The PSU's arrived; I opened one up to
check the contents, it had a thick foam
cover over the HD and is in a textured bag
which I didn't remove.

It also included another bag and straps.

http://i66.tinypic.com/ilbt4x.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/1zf07f6.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/283y9.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/o0w4tt.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/zof9cn.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/2gxpwkw.jpg

Robert
  #63  
Old December 16th 18, 06:37 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

Mark Twain wrote:
The PSU's arrived; I opened one up to
check the contents, it had a thick foam
cover over the HD and is in a textured bag
which I didn't remove.

It also included another bag and straps.

http://i66.tinypic.com/ilbt4x.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/1zf07f6.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/283y9.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/o0w4tt.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/zof9cn.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/2gxpwkw.jpg

Robert


Looks nice.

The only thing I don't like (and I have some supplies
here with it), is the black ribbon power leads. I like
the traditional separate wires with the proper colors
on them. I'm not a fan of "all black" wiring.

It's a semi-modular, so you only have to plug
in the cables as needed. There might be a couple
holes spare when you're finished.

Your video card might not need the PCI Express 2x3 or 2x4,
and it's possible those are captive cables on this PSU.
You can keep those folded up so they don't droop.

I pop my new PSUs onto my home-made PSU load tester.
Which only draws around 100W. I use that to check
that no smoke comes out when it first arrives :-)
It's not a proper functional test. Machines that
check parametrics on a power supply like that, cost a
lot of money. They can do stuff like present a "step load"
and check for overshoot. Or, check whether the ATX
cross-loading spec is being met.

They do make cheap PSU testers, but unless you can
take it apart and see how "evil" it is inside, I
don't know whether I'd trust one of these or not.

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/40...ly_Tester.html

There are PSU testers cheaper than that, but they only
load one rail, and that's not much of a test. The cheapest
don't even provide feedback, except you get to listen
to the ATX fan spinning. The Coolmax one has LEDs,
so likely has window comparators per channel. It's hard
to tell what load resistors they use (not documented).

These companies could do themselves a lot of favors,
by providing better documentation.

http://www.coolmaxusa.com/download/u...ual/PS-124.pdf

My tester, I didn't make a nice box for it. Probably would
have doubled project cost, to box it up and make it look nice.
Mine just kinda lays on the bench. I use a multimeter to measure,
and mine doesn't measure anything. It's just some resistors
and an on/off switch.

I got the power resistors for mine, at about a buck a piece.
The store also happened to have the minifit jr shrouds
and pins for making a mating cable for test.

Paul
  #64  
Old December 16th 18, 07:51 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

I agree with you about the cables,. it's the
first thing I noticed and will make things
that much harder.

I'm not that advanced to get testor's etc but
it makes sense that you would and cool that you
could make your own.

I took more pics because I wanted to see if
the screws lined up etc.

http://i64.tinypic.com/30u4f8o.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/2hcztqv.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/23gzloi.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/2hwcmep.jpg

Robert
  #65  
Old December 16th 18, 09:52 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

Mark Twain wrote:
I agree with you about the cables,. it's the
first thing I noticed and will make things
that much harder.

I'm not that advanced to get testor's etc but
it makes sense that you would and cool that you
could make your own.

I took more pics because I wanted to see if
the screws lined up etc.

http://i64.tinypic.com/30u4f8o.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/2hcztqv.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/23gzloi.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/2hwcmep.jpg

Robert


Now that you have the product in hand, you should be
able to compare the faceplate end with the existing
computer cases and check for conflicts.

The biggest screwups I've seen on some supply purchases,
is the ones that were up-side-down, and when installed
into the computer, that fan points to the top of the
computer case. The ones you've got there look conventional
to me, so the fan in the face of the supply will be
facing downward when installed. The screw pattern isn't
square, so you should be able to tell which way it needs
to install so the screw holes line up. (It only fits
properly, one way.)

You can also compare the side view of the PSU, against
the existing install, and get some idea how the cables
will fit, whether the PSU would bump into the optical
drive, and so on. You can do your fitment checks,
double check cable length and so on.

Paul
  #66  
Old December 16th 18, 11:15 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

I checked and the screw pattern is the same but
to check the side view with the existing install
won't I have to open up the computers again?

I'd rather not do that but I guess it's better I
check to see if there are issues.

Robert




  #67  
Old December 16th 18, 12:20 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

Mark Twain wrote:
I checked and the screw pattern is the same but
to check the side view with the existing install
won't I have to open up the computers again?

I'd rather not do that but I guess it's better I
check to see if there are issues.

Robert


At this point, you want to do enough to convince
yourself the supply is ready to use, when the
current one fails.

If your memory is good, of what the innards look
like, then you don't have to open it up again. You
do have some good digital camera shots of the layout
for reference.

The worst thing, would be keeping a supply (past the
15-day or 30-day return) that doesn't fit.

Paul
  #68  
Old December 16th 18, 06:31 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

I took your good advice:

Here's the 8500:

http://i63.tinypic.com/rhn4tx.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/2nv5p3n.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/1zntqw4.jpg

and the 780:

http://i66.tinypic.com/2zea1oy.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/df7pmo.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/15qyydx.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/2znv0vl.jpg


Both seem to fit and have the right
screw patterns and the cables seem
long enough.

Robert
  #69  
Old December 16th 18, 08:21 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

Mark Twain wrote:
I took your good advice:

Here's the 8500:

http://i63.tinypic.com/rhn4tx.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/2nv5p3n.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/1zntqw4.jpg Verified matches for all power cables ?
Page 21 of 8500 "Owner's Manual"
and the 780: PWR1 (24 pin) PWR2 (4 pin) are standard items

http://i66.tinypic.com/2zea1oy.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/df7pmo.jpg 780 Rear case curvature ?

http://i65.tinypic.com/15qyydx.jpg Differences on cable exits, OK
780 has BTX layout
http://i63.tinypic.com/2znv0vl.jpg SATA4 cable to dual drive HDD bay at bottom
SATA2 cable to optical bay ?
Could be right-angle or left-angle connectors
Both seem to fit and have the right
screw patterns and the cables seem
long enough.

Robert


On the 780, you might want to look at your modular
cabling, and see whether the SATA peripherals need right-angle
or left-angle connectors.

I checked my (spare) Seasonic S12 and it appears to drape
the right way, for the angled connectors to fit the drives OK.
That doesn't mean necessarily that yours go the same way,
but since Seasonic makes their own supplies and doesn't
tend to buy contract supplies, there should be consistency from
one design to the next.

S12 cable + (for want of a name, I call this the
| SATA4 cable, with the four connectors)
|
+-X
|
+-X HDD \
| \__ use these two for bottom HDD bay
+-X HDD /
|
X --- straight connector is less convenient

You could check your SATA2 cable, to see whether there is
a straight one on the end. The straight end is OK, except
the wire will have to loop out into space, before the second
connector fits flush against the second optical bay (if you
have one).

It's too hard for me to plan a cable route for the 780 using
just my minds eye.

One thing missing from the 780, is a structural bar running
across the top part of the chassis. Sometimes, for "excess"
cable, like folding the main cable, you need a place to
tie-wrap the main cable to the bar, so it doesn't fall
down into the computer. I don't see a lot of tie points
to work with in the 780, to do a decent job of it.

But that's always a problem with computer cases, is not
enough "conveniences" for tying off things that need to
hang down.

That is part of planning, having a look to see how
everything will be kept in place. When there is a wad
of cables behind the PSU, something has to hold the
excess cables up.

On my newer machine, I made a custom adapter for a fan
to be mounted next to the (hot) Vcore regulator. And one
of the features of the custom adapter (a piece of board!),
is a sawn out area, where the folded excess cable from
the PSU, gets some support. It means I can't use all
the 5.25" bays, but the top bay has an optical drive,
while excess cable lays in the second 5.25" bay. So that's
how I solved that issue in the Antec Sonata casing.

This has always been a problem with my computer builds.
Some machines have the metal bar, it's riveted and cannot
be removed and always seems to get in the way. But it does
give a tie point, if there's no other way to hold up the
"cable wad". That structural bar gives the computer case
stiffness, but it gets in the way when you're trying
to maneuver the hard drive into its mount point. Modern
case designs have dispensed with it (a plus and minus
at the same time).

xps-8500_owner's manual_en-us.pdf
optiplex-780_service manual_en-us.pdf

Paul
  #70  
Old December 17th 18, 04:51 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

Boy, you throw allot at me *L*

Um, are you saying to open the computers again and
pull the cables and check to see if the PSU cables
fit? I not following you and don't know what you
mean by straight even with your diagram?

I think I understand what you mean by right or
left but do you want me to disconnect the HD and
optical drive cables as well and try to connect
the new ones or what?

I'm not clear on what or how you want me to check?
It sounds as if you want me to do a mock PSU exhange
by hooking it all up.

I know what you mean about trying to keep it clean
and you'd think that they would design cases with
that in mind, with a sort of built in wiring harness
to keep everything clean.

Robert
  #71  
Old December 17th 18, 05:43 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

Mark Twain wrote:
Boy, you throw allot at me *L*

Um, are you saying to open the computers again and
pull the cables and check to see if the PSU cables
fit? I not following you and don't know what you
mean by straight even with your diagram?

I think I understand what you mean by right or
left but do you want me to disconnect the HD and
optical drive cables as well and try to connect
the new ones or what?

I'm not clear on what or how you want me to check?
It sounds as if you want me to do a mock PSU exhange
by hooking it all up.

I know what you mean about trying to keep it clean
and you'd think that they would design cases with
that in mind, with a sort of built in wiring harness
to keep everything clean.

Robert


You can simulate this without opening the computer.

Hold a hard drive, in the normal horizontal position.

Grab the SATA4 module cable, and pretend it's draping
down from the modular connectors on the back of the PSU.

The angled connectors on the cable, should fit directly
onto the drive.

And you might notice the last connector on the cable
is different than the angled ones. And the straight one
might not fit, without bending the cable a bit (bend
radius). Using the straight connector on the end,
maximizes the amount of cable you have to work with.

So what you're checking, is two things.

1) angled connector is the right-way-round to plug
into the hard drive, without having to turn the
hard drive up-side-down.

2) Cable is long enough, to stretch from the top of the
case (where the modular output on the FM is located),
all the way down to the two hard drive bays.

FM cable +
|
|
+-X
|
+-X HDD \
| \__ use these two for bottom HDD bay
+-X HDD /
|
X --- straight connector is less convenient

You can do a rough check of the fit, without
cracking the computer case open again.

Paul
  #72  
Old December 17th 18, 12:56 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

I didn't really understand what you were asking me
although I think I understand the concept. I'm
assumed all connections are standard etc. and I
don't think they're be a problem about fitting.

Here's all the additional wiring that isn't attached to
the PSU and the power cord.

http://i66.tinypic.com/rtgojm.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/j9o58o.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/f3s0g6.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/33wqo04.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/9vaale.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/2wem540.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/2uha3bq.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/359bvgw.jpg

I did open the 780 and I test fitted the PWR1 cable
but I have no idea what the other two square connectors
go to? I looked for anything like them on the motherboard
and the HD and optical drive and couldn't find anything
close to them.

I realized later I had the PSU backwards but I don't think
it matters much.

http://i65.tinypic.com/2vsmdyo.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/rk5474.jpg

Robert
  #73  
Old December 17th 18, 03:05 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

Mark Twain wrote:
I didn't really understand what you were asking me
although I think I understand the concept. I'm
assumed all connections are standard etc. and I
don't think they're be a problem about fitting.

Here's all the additional wiring that isn't attached to
the PSU and the power cord.

http://i66.tinypic.com/rtgojm.jpg Are these cables really long enough ?

http://i63.tinypic.com/j9o58o.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/f3s0g6.jpg Floppy adapter

http://i63.tinypic.com/33wqo04.jpg Molex

http://i65.tinypic.com/9vaale.jpg PCI Express with 2x3 or 2x4 option

http://i67.tinypic.com/2wem540.jpg SATA2 ?

http://i67.tinypic.com/2uha3bq.jpg SATA4 cable

http://i64.tinypic.com/359bvgw.jpg "Modular end" of cable

I did open the 780 and I test fitted the PWR1 cable
but I have no idea what the other two square connectors
go to? I looked for anything like them on the motherboard
and the HD and optical drive and couldn't find anything
close to them.

I realized later I had the PSU backwards but I don't think
it matters much.

http://i65.tinypic.com/2vsmdyo.jpg 780 custom cable outlet hole
Not same as new supply...
http://i63.tinypic.com/rk5474.jpg 2x2 and 2x4 ATX12V cable

Robert


The cables you show in rk5474 could be the two halves
of a 2x4 cable. The two pieces should "align on a small rib"
when inserted into a 2x4 connector.

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psucon...tors.html#eps8

This shows a 2x2 going into an enthusiast motherboard 2x4 connector.

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/4pinin8.jpg

The deal with the connectors is this:

1) Each yellow wire carries 6 amps.
2) The ATX spec defined a 2x2 connector, suited to 12A total.
12V * 12A = 144W of power. With VCore efficiency taken
into account, this can probably handle a 130W processor,
with 14W of waste heat coming from the VCore components.
3) Enthusiasts want to "overclock" their motherboards.
The power drawn through ATX12V in that case, could be
200-300W depending on situation (Pentium Dual D805 4GHz).
4) Motherboard makers started including a 2x4 on the board,
capable of carrying 288W no problem at all. There are four
yellow wires and four black wires on the 2x4.

With the accursed all-black wiring though, it's harder
to gain the visual cues, the yellow wire helping the
user align the two halves of the 2x4 to prepare them for
insertion into a 2x4 socket.

If the motherboard has a 2x4 socket

Plug in a 2x2 PSU, get up to 144W of power (non-overclocking user)
Plug in a 2x4 PSU, get up to 288W of power (overclocker user)

Your motherboards *should not* have a 2x4 on the motherboard
surface. Unless a Dell is an "Alienware" branding machine,
regular Dells are not really intended as overclocker material.

Thus, yours looks like this case.

You will be plugging at 2x2 into a 2x2 like this.
You need *one half* of your two-headed cable. The snap-tab
aligns with the tab on the motherboard.

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/12v4pin.jpg

Note that the connector has a cable lock. It snaps
over the tab on the motherboard. The cable lock
prevents "thermal pushout" of the connector and keeps
it seated. When removing the 2x2, you need to "depress"
the top part of the tab, to release it, while at the
same time, pulling up on the connector. On some computers,
if you have big hands, there's practically no clearance
for you to depress the tab.

The two heads, viewed end on, on the Seasonic, look like this.
You can use one head, with the tab "T" snapping onto the
mating tab on the motherboard end. The tab "T" functions
as an optical cue for orientation too. In addition, the nylon
shroud around each pin is shaped, to control insertion.
If you're having trouble fitting it, verify the "shapes"
on the section you selected, mate with the "shapes" on the
motherboard side. Two of the shroud pin enclosures are
four-sided, two are six-sided

T T TTT
X X X X == X X X X
X X X X X X X X


TTTTT End view of connector
___ ___ showing shapes which help
| | | | control mating only one way.
| | | |
\_/ ---
___ ___
| | | |
| | | |
--- \_/

If they'd stuck with the yellow wire, you would also be
able to make a note of which side was yellow when
disassembling the old PSU, and double-check yellow
was on the same side once the new connector was seated.
But with the all-black wire, one very valuable visual
cue is missing.

*******

Here is a picture of me mocking up cable insertion
on your machine with the two drive bays at the bottom
of the computer. My Seasonic cable seems to have the
correct orientation of cables, and I expect yours does too.

You can see in the picture, that really both the angled
and the straight connector on SATA4, some wire "sticks out"
between drives. Which is different than the "perfectly flat"
and nice layout, of the Dell implementation. For the
angled connectors, it depends on how much "slack" is
between connectors, as to how far it sticks out.

https://i.postimg.cc/xTBF9R0S/SATA4-fit-test.jpg

I don't think this is a big deal, but you know how
these things bolt together better than I do.

Paul
  #74  
Old December 17th 18, 08:31 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

You're not going to believe this,....

The new APC Surge Arrest arrived,. so first thing
I did was exchange the old APC for the new one and
I still have the red light!

I see what you were talking about now,. fitting
and connecting the cables and tying them off and
depending if it has enough clearance and give etc.
I see the cable bulging your referring to.

I know what you mean about the clips,.. to get the
PWR1 cable out I had to hold down on the upper part
of the clip to release it and your right there wasn't
much room. It was harder than hell to get it out
and just as hard to get the PSU one out as well.

I assumed the cables are long enough? I should
be OK with the PWR1 cable and I think maybe the
orange connector is one of the ones you spoke about?

What about the blue and black connectors? and
the multiple color ones on the edge that control
my card reader? It makes it so much more difficult
with all black wiring. I don't know if I can do this.

Here's another shot of the 8500

http://i63.tinypic.com/72t069.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/ffddok.jpg

and the 780

http://i64.tinypic.com/fypw8.jpg


What do you think?
Robert



The second picture was the PWR1 connector



  #75  
Old December 17th 18, 11:28 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

Mark Twain wrote:
You're not going to believe this,....

The new APC Surge Arrest arrived,. so first thing
I did was exchange the old APC for the new one and
I still have the red light!


Does the APC Surge Arrestor have a one-page user manual ?

What does it say for "conditions that turn on red light" ?

They make outlet testers for three-prong wiring. You
want one which doesn't jack up the price by including
all sorts of "plastic accessories" in the package. An
outlet tester, you should be able to buy it as a separate
item.

The three lights on the outlet tester, there is a list
of "conditions" on the side of the tester, like "no ground",
"hot and neutral reversed" and so on. The device is typically
constructed with 220K resistors and neon bulbs as a visual
indicator. Those can work directly with line voltage.

You plug the tester into an outlet (in place of plugging in
the surge arrestor), and check that the "all good" pattern
lights up.

https://www.amazon.com/ELECTRICAL-RE.../dp/B002Q3R7HI

You can find these at $5.00 for just the plug tester,
and $20.00 for a package filled with other, useless crap.

I keep one in my toolbox, when visiting relatives.
Like, if I were to get a shock off a TV set maybe,
I'd pull out the $5 outlet tester and see if I get
the "two success light" pattern on the end of it.

I think to get one of those the last time, I had to go to
a small in-town hardware store. The Home Depot might not
have had it (or at least I couldn't find it at the time).


I see what you were talking about now,. fitting
and connecting the cables and tying them off and
depending if it has enough clearance and give etc.
I see the cable bulging your referring to.


You don't have to simulate a replacement operation entirely.

The objective of this exercise is to determine if the
Seasonic FM is a "bust" or not.

That's why I asked you to inspect the faceplate area,
to make sure nothing "custom" about the computer case
gets in the way.


I know what you mean about the clips,.. to get the
PWR1 cable out I had to hold down on the upper part
of the clip to release it and your right there wasn't
much room. It was harder than hell to get it out
and just as hard to get the PSU one out as well.


Some computer stuff will give you sore fingers for the effort.


I assumed the cables are long enough? I should
be OK with the PWR1 cable and I think maybe the
orange connector is one of the ones you spoke about?


The orange and blue are SATA data cables. That's a
"private" connection between motherboard and disk drive.

The black weird one, I'm not sure of. The 8500 manual
probably will tell me. Page 21 of the manual shows
"connector item #15", while page 22 says the black
cable is "Front Panel USB". There are enough pins
on the connector, for two USB3 or four USB2, so your
front panel has either of those.

Again, the black cable is "private" between motherboard
and front panel of computer case.


What about the blue and black connectors? and
the multiple color ones on the edge that control
my card reader? It makes it so much more difficult
with all black wiring. I don't know if I can do this.

Here's another shot of the 8500

http://i63.tinypic.com/72t069.jpg


The power cables for PWR1 and PWR2 should be long
enough on the Seasonic. I can tell because they didn't
use "stupid" locations for PWR1 and PWR2. They're
"normal" locations. The ATX12V one plugs into the
area where the VCore regulator is situated. The
main connector is mid-board on the right edge.


http://i65.tinypic.com/ffddok.jpg


I think most of the other wires I'm seeing are
accessory wires of one sort and another.


and the 780

http://i64.tinypic.com/fypw8.jpg


It looks like your 780 doesn't have a floppy drive installed
that I can see. What could be the floppy data cable seems
to be resting on top of the main fan shroud.

For the 780, your SATA4 cable will be covering the
lower two drives. Your SATA2 cable will be covering
the optical drive. Your second optical drive bay might
be a location to "stuff" unused captive cables.

The 780 is relatively clean, and my concern there will
be the placing of a cable tie around the excess cabling.
I can't really predict what issues will pop up then.

As I indicated in other answers, you face the excess
cable issue as it comes, and look for places to store
or strap them.

When replacing the 780 PSU, you won't be using the SATA
cable guide any more, but I doubt that will be more
than an aesthetic issue. The data cables don't
look excessively long. And it doesn't look like they
used the cable guides underneath the floppy drive, so
that could be one less thing to fight with there.


What do you think?
Robert


Everything looks under control.

Between your picture taking skills (for documentation
purposes) and the 780 and 8500 service manuals, I think
you will figure all this stuff out.

Obviously, only change power supplies on *one* computer
at a time, so the second one can be used for Googling
if the need arises.

The wire gauge and style of the PSU wiring, should hint
at what bits are about to be changed out. Cables which
don't look like PSU, are likely "private" wires running
between two other components (mobo and drives, mobo
and card reader etc).

Paul
 




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