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Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?



 
 
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  #31  
Old August 14th 18, 07:02 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ralph Fox
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Posts: 474
Default Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?

On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 13:45:37 +0100, mechanic wrote:

On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 20:59:59 +1200, Ralph Fox wrote:

Microsoft provides free Windows VMs which only expire after 90 days.

https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/vms/

After the 90 days has expired, the Windows 7 versions can be re-armed a
couple of times. Which gives you more time before you have to start
afresh and re-install programs.


They don't go back very far;


Microsoft will only provide *supported* versions of Windows.

Inside the free VMs, help for the VMs still mentions the XP version.
But the download page no longer has it.

for an afternoon's fun try loading
Windows95 with IE3 into VirtualBox.


OTOH I had no problem installing Windows98 with IE4 into VMware Player.


--
Kind regards
Ralph
🦊
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  #32  
Old August 15th 18, 07:05 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Bill in Co
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Posts: 1,927
Default Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , VanguardLH
writes:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

I can't see why they can't be sandboxed/emulated/whatever,


Sure they can. Get a VMM (virtual machine manager), like VMWare Player
or VirtualBox, and install your OS bitwidth of choice in a VM where you
run old programs that require that particular OS.


I got the impression that the WOWs were, in effect, something like a VMM
- not exactly do, hence my "whatever".

A vendor isn't going to continue supporting a product that they
discontinued. YOU become the support team thereafter. It's up to you
to find a solution.


True. I thought the WOWs were tools I/users could use towards that end.

Looks like your solutions are, so far: Run Windows 32-bit in a VM where
you use Turnpike 6 or use the older Turnpike 5 on Windows 64-bit.


I was asking the question out of more general interest; I only mentioned
Turnpike specifically in passing, as an example of even a 32-bit
software that doesn't run under 64-bit Windows (for reasons different to
most).

(I'm actually running it in a real - not virtual - 32-bit machine; this
32-bit W7 SP1 is more than adequate for my needs. [It has well under 4G
of RAM - 3, I think. I don't think 64-bit W7 would give me any
benefit.])


Same here. Actually, I think it's a bit challenging to find a 32 bit
Windows 7 computer, (and if you're looking at the listings on eBay or
Amazon, it's not always spelled out either, for that matter).

I've got the 32 bit OS version (like you) precisely so I can still run a few
old programs at my own beckoning, although admitedly, it's not very often,
anymore. I just want - and really appreciate - having that flexibility.
(Plus I also like having just one Program Files folder to have to keep track
of, and keeping things a bit simpler, in general. I guess you could say
that also includes getting some drivers for some older stuff too, when
needed. However, I expect for most folks, the benefits of x64 will outweigh
all of this.


  #33  
Old August 15th 18, 11:52 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
mechanic
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Posts: 1,064
Default Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?

On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 10:14:41 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:

They don't go back very far; for an afternoon's fun try loading
Windows95 with IE3 into VirtualBox.


I have 98SE available in VMware, but I've only run it a few times to see
if it works. It does, but it didn't inspire me to go even farther back
to 95.


What's rather shocking is just how creaky and old fashioned these
systems are. The jump from Win95 to XP seems to be huge, as is the
jump from XP to current levels of Win10.

Getting a virtual machine running with Win95 is rather involved
because the install CDs don't boot(and you need a product ID key, no
30 days grace). After finding a boot floppy image for DOS and
getting win95 to load, the networking didn't work for me (and the
network support tools are creaky). After getting that going I'm
stuck with a 640x480 window and no way of making that larger. The
sites with installer drivers for video won't load in IE3!
  #34  
Old August 15th 18, 01:27 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?

mechanic wrote:
On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 10:14:41 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:

They don't go back very far; for an afternoon's fun try loading
Windows95 with IE3 into VirtualBox.

I have 98SE available in VMware, but I've only run it a few times to see
if it works. It does, but it didn't inspire me to go even farther back
to 95.


What's rather shocking is just how creaky and old fashioned these
systems are. The jump from Win95 to XP seems to be huge, as is the
jump from XP to current levels of Win10.

Getting a virtual machine running with Win95 is rather involved
because the install CDs don't boot(and you need a product ID key, no
30 days grace). After finding a boot floppy image for DOS and
getting win95 to load, the networking didn't work for me (and the
network support tools are creaky). After getting that going I'm
stuck with a 640x480 window and no way of making that larger. The
sites with installer drivers for video won't load in IE3!


You can slave up the disk from the Win95 machine to
another more capable VM, and "inject" the downloaded
EXE into the container from there. Then shut down
that machine, go back and boot the Win95 one.

*******

For the really tough cases, you can always switch on
the emulated serial port in the VM and transfer
files across over the serial port.

Paul
  #35  
Old August 15th 18, 04:33 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Char Jackson
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Posts: 10,449
Default Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?

On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:52:57 +0100, mechanic
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 10:14:41 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:

They don't go back very far; for an afternoon's fun try loading
Windows95 with IE3 into VirtualBox.


I have 98SE available in VMware, but I've only run it a few times to see
if it works. It does, but it didn't inspire me to go even farther back
to 95.


What's rather shocking is just how creaky and old fashioned these
systems are. The jump from Win95 to XP seems to be huge, as is the
jump from XP to current levels of Win10.


VMs make it very easy to quickly switch between any or all of the
various Windows versions since they can all literally be running at the
same time, so while it's easy to see that the changes from 95/98 to XP
are huge, in a good way, the changes from XP to 10 are also huge, but in
a bad way. It's easy to see that Windows hit its peak, from the user
perspective, in the XP/7 era, and the declines happened sharply after
that.

That's from a user perspective. I'm sure that Microsoft's perspective is
that each successive version only added to the user experience, giving
people more of what they want. They would be wrong, of course.

--

Char Jackson
  #36  
Old August 15th 18, 08:47 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
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Posts: 2,679
Default Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?

In message , Char Jackson
writes:
[]
VMs make it very easy to quickly switch between any or all of the
various Windows versions since they can all literally be running at the
same time, so while it's easy to see that the changes from 95/98 to XP
are huge, in a good way, the changes from XP to 10 are also huge, but in
a bad way. It's easy to see that Windows hit its peak, from the user
perspective, in the XP/7 era, and the declines happened sharply after
that.


I felt very at home with 98SElite. I accepted XP (and NTFS - and I know
you don't _have_ to run it under NTFS), despite some reservations, for
some genuine benefits (of which the only one I can remember now is
better handling of USB, at least of memory sticks). I've found 7 about
an equal balance (compared to XP) - I'd say I've gained about as much as
I lost; I'm using 7 mainly because it's supported (by users, not
Microsoft), in much the same way XP was a few years ago. I really don't
like the thinking behind 10, so don't know where I'll go when 7 support
fades, if it does.

That's from a user perspective. I'm sure that Microsoft's perspective is
that each successive version only added to the user experience, giving
people more of what they want. They would be wrong, of course.

I could believe there are people inside MS that genuinely think that
people want the changes they've made; the cynic in me does _not_ believe
that, but knows they'll continue pretending that [rather than admitting
the changes are more and more for MS's benefit, not the users']. This
(cynicism) may be a function of increasing age (on my part, not
Microsoft's).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

This space unintentionally left blank.
  #37  
Old August 15th 18, 09:18 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Bill in Co
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Posts: 1,927
Default Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Char Jackson
writes:
[]
VMs make it very easy to quickly switch between any or all of the
various Windows versions since they can all literally be running at the
same time, so while it's easy to see that the changes from 95/98 to XP
are huge, in a good way, the changes from XP to 10 are also huge, but in
a bad way. It's easy to see that Windows hit its peak, from the user
perspective, in the XP/7 era, and the declines happened sharply after
that.


I felt very at home with 98SElite. I accepted XP (and NTFS - and I know
you don't _have_ to run it under NTFS), despite some reservations, for
some genuine benefits (of which the only one I can remember now is
better handling of USB, at least of memory sticks). I've found 7 about
an equal balance (compared to XP) - I'd say I've gained about as much as
I lost; I'm using 7 mainly because it's supported (by users, not
Microsoft), in much the same way XP was a few years ago. I really don't
like the thinking behind 10, so don't know where I'll go when 7 support
fades, if it does.

That's from a user perspective. I'm sure that Microsoft's perspective is
that each successive version only added to the user experience, giving
people more of what they want. They would be wrong, of course.

I could believe there are people inside MS that genuinely think that
people want the changes they've made; the cynic in me does _not_ believe
that, but knows they'll continue pretending that [rather than admitting
the changes are more and more for MS's benefit, not the users']. This
(cynicism) may be a function of increasing age (on my part, not
Microsoft's).


Of course, why else would we now have the "subscription models", like Office
365?

You forgot another big advantage of NTFS - you don't have to worry about
reaching the maximum file size limit of 2 GB or 4 GB (depending) in FAT32.
That's easily reached by image backup programs, and many videos, etc. (Plus
I haven't had to worry about all those chkdisk fragments (001, 002, etc)
either :-)

I once tried a Virtual Machine, but find it a lot simpler to not have to use
it (or dual booting either, for that matter). Thus my sticking to 32 bit
OS's for the near future, so as to be able to run some current and older
programs effortlessly. (And of course, there is only one Programs Files
folder to keep track of, which is nice). For me, like you I think, I just
don't have any need for any 64 bit programs, or even that much memory (
4GB) capability.


  #38  
Old August 16th 18, 11:41 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ralph Fox
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Posts: 474
Default Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?

On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:52:57 +0100, mechanic wrote:

Getting a virtual machine running with Win95 is rather involved
because the install CDs don't boot(and you need a product ID key, no
30 days grace). After finding a boot floppy image for DOS and
getting win95 to load, the networking didn't work for me (and the
network support tools are creaky). After getting that going I'm
stuck with a 640x480 window and no way of making that larger.



The window size problem is a problem of VirtualBox, not a problem
of virtual machines in general. Unlike VMware, VirtualBox does not
have guest additions for Win9x.

In VMware Player, Windows 98 (First Edition) uses the full size of my
1920 x 1080 monitor.


The
sites with installer drivers for video won't load in IE3!


For the browser problem, try installing K-Meleon 1.5.4 from
http://kmeleonbrowser.org/download.php.

K-Meleon is based on Mozilla Firefox's rendering engine but uses less
system resources. I ran K-Meleon 1.5.4 in Windows 98.

K-Meleon 1.5.4 is a few years old but still much newer than IE3.
K-Meleon 1.6.0-Beta2 was a not stable enough for me.
Later versions of K-Meleon do not run on Win9x.


--
Kind regards
Ralph
  #39  
Old August 17th 18, 10:43 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
mechanic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,064
Default Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?

On Thu, 16 Aug 2018 22:41:53 +1200, Ralph Fox wrote:

On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:52:57 +0100, mechanic wrote:

Getting a virtual machine running with Win95 is rather involved
because the install CDs don't boot(and you need a product ID
key, no 30 days grace). After finding a boot floppy image for
DOS and getting win95 to load, the networking didn't work for me
(and the network support tools are creaky). After getting that
going I'm stuck with a 640x480 window and no way of making that
larger.


The window size problem is a problem of VirtualBox, not a problem
of virtual machines in general. Unlike VMware, VirtualBox does
not have guest additions for Win9x.


True there are no guest additions available to Win9x virtualbox
machines, but the recommended video driver from SciTech solves the
window size issue and comes on a convenient .iso file that can be
loaded simply into the virtual machine.

Still working on the browser, thanks!

Amazing that there are available files of lots of win9x install
..iso's on't interweb, also that the product keys are also easy to
find, although some trial and error was necessary (on my part).
  #40  
Old August 17th 18, 12:10 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ralph Fox
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Posts: 474
Default Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?

On Fri, 17 Aug 2018 10:43:38 +0100, mechanic wrote:

True there are no guest additions available to Win9x virtualbox
machines, but the recommended video driver from SciTech solves the
window size issue and comes on a convenient .iso file that can be
loaded simply into the virtual machine.


That's good to hear.

Still working on the browser, thanks!



--
Kind regards
Ralph

  #41  
Old August 17th 18, 12:41 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
mechanic
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Posts: 1,064
Default Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?

On Fri, 17 Aug 2018 23:10:18 +1200, Ralph Fox wrote:

On Fri, 17 Aug 2018 10:43:38 +0100, mechanic wrote:

True there are no guest additions available to Win9x virtualbox
machines, but the recommended video driver from SciTech solves the
window size issue and comes on a convenient .iso file that can be
loaded simply into the virtual machine.


That's good to hear.

Still working on the browser, thanks!


With a more up to date browser things look better (installable by
including the browser install file in an iso which can be loaded
into the virtual machine). Now the limiting factor in browsing seems
to be lack of the right certificates, I can't see a way of bypassing
those checks even temporarily!
  #42  
Old August 17th 18, 06:16 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Mark Lloyd[_2_]
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Posts: 1,756
Default Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?

On 08/17/2018 04:43 AM, mechanic wrote:

[snip]

True there are no guest additions available to Win9x virtualbox
machines, but the recommended video driver from SciTech solves the
window size issue and comes on a convenient .iso file that can be
loaded simply into the virtual machine.


It worked for me, larger screen and (more important for what I wanted)
more colors. The .iso was easy to load, although I have now set up
Samba. However, I still wish for mouse integration.

As to internet access, it would have been easier if I had remembered
what I did in 1995. Install TCP/IP. Apparently, you were expected to
have no use for a web browser unless you had a modem.

Still working on the browser, thanks!


Mine (Win95 CD) came with MSIE4, and I wanted to see how my website did
with that. Most JavaScript will not work, but CSS does.

Amazing that there are available files of lots of win9x install
.iso's on't interweb, also that the product keys are also easy to
find, although some trial and error was necessary (on my part).


While I still have the CD I bought, it's nice to have an alternative.

There is Win 3.1, but I don't really want it, and internet access is
even harder to set up with that. Maybe NT4 someday.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider
ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority
behind it." -- Albert Einstein
  #43  
Old August 17th 18, 06:27 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Mark Lloyd[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,756
Default Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?

On 08/17/2018 06:41 AM, mechanic wrote:

[snip]

With a more up to date browser things look better (installable by
including the browser install file in an iso which can be loaded
into the virtual machine). Now the limiting factor in browsing seems
to be lack of the right certificates, I can't see a way of bypassing
those checks even temporarily!


I have noticed that old browsers will often come up with aan error
message, since the "home page" nor points to a site with modern SSL.
Changing the home page to something else fixes that.

I have the newer browsers in other systems: 5 (non-updated 2000), 5.5
(ME), 6 (updated 2000). I wanted to see how MSIE4 did.

Strangely, I do have a clock page that works in MSIE4, at
http://notstupid.us/clox/clockie.html . Unexpectedly, this works in
modern browsers too.

BTW, yes, I forgot a 'var'. It still works.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider
ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority
behind it." -- Albert Einstein
  #44  
Old August 17th 18, 09:47 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ant[_2_]
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Posts: 554
Default Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 08/17/2018 04:43 AM, mechanic wrote:


[snip]


True there are no guest additions available to Win9x virtualbox
machines, but the recommended video driver from SciTech solves the
window size issue and comes on a convenient .iso file that can be
loaded simply into the virtual machine.


It worked for me, larger screen and (more important for what I wanted)
more colors. The .iso was easy to load, although I have now set up
Samba. However, I still wish for mouse integration.


As to internet access, it would have been easier if I had remembered
what I did in 1995. Install TCP/IP. Apparently, you were expected to
have no use for a web browser unless you had a modem.


In Windows 95? IIRC, it came with its own Internet stuff compared to
Windows 3.x. I remember using Trumpet Winsock for dial-up Internet
services with shell accounts (SLIP and PPP). UNIX shell accounts were
using non-free TIA and free open source SLiRP binaries.


Still working on the browser, thanks!


Mine (Win95 CD) came with MSIE4, and I wanted to see how my website did
with that. Most JavaScript will not work, but CSS does.


Amazing that there are available files of lots of win9x install
.iso's on't interweb, also that the product keys are also easy to
find, although some trial and error was necessary (on my part).


While I still have the CD I bought, it's nice to have an alternative.


There is Win 3.1, but I don't really want it, and internet access is
even harder to set up with that. Maybe NT4 someday.


Augh. Yeah, not Internet friendly back then.
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  #45  
Old August 17th 18, 11:41 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Mark Lloyd[_2_]
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Posts: 1,756
Default Why is WOW not recursive (and 16, 8 bit)?

On 08/17/2018 03:47 PM, Ant wrote:

[snip]

As to internet access, it would have been easier if I had remembered
what I did in 1995. Install TCP/IP. Apparently, you were expected to
have no use for a web browser unless you had a modem.


In Windows 95? IIRC, it came with its own Internet stuff compared to
Windows 3.x.


Win 95 does provide TCP/IP, but it it not enabled by default. You have
to make the proper settings. Easy, now I remember when 95 was he current
version.

[snip]


There is Win 3.1, but I don't really want it, and internet access is
even harder to set up with that. Maybe NT4 someday.


Augh. Yeah, not Internet friendly back then.


I didn't have internet access until 1995, because then the phone company
started treating some nearby cities as local.

I avoided using Windows until I had to to use the web*. At first, it was
Compuserve on Windows 3.1. At that time I had a lot of trouble with the
28.8K modem disconnecting itself. It turned out that that modem (which
worked fine on BBSes) didn't work right on Windows.

* also one add-on card called PC Tele-Vision

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider
ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority
behind it." -- Albert Einstein
 




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