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Problems caused by Windows Update



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 7th 15, 06:49 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Keith Nuttle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,844
Default Problems caused by Windows Update

While I have not had this problem in a month or so, I started the
computer this afternoon and find it is back.

I have a Toshiba Satelite with Windows 8.1 4gb ram i-3CPU. 500gb disk

This afternoon when I cam home and turned the computer on both
Thunderbird 31.5.0 and Firefox 36.0.1 would not come up with out the
warning they had to be reset. Without doing any thing to any thing, I
closed the warning windows.

Based on previous experience, I checked to see if there was a Windows
8.1 update. The Windows Malicioius Software remove tool wanted to be
updated.

WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING TO THE MOZILLA PRODUCTS, I down loaded the
Malicious Software Update, and allowed it to install. I rebooted the
computer. I then went on to do what I had turned the computer to do
with Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird. Both open normally with out
changing any thing in the program.

This has been a common occurance for the past year. I don't know if the
Malicious Software Removal Tool was involved with every update but this
morning it was the only program updated.

As I said this has been going on for many months through several
revision of the Mozilla products.

Why does Windows think it necessary to interfer with other product, just
because they have an update to install?
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  #2  
Old March 7th 15, 07:28 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Ed Cryer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,621
Default Problems caused by Windows Update

Keith Nuttle wrote:
While I have not had this problem in a month or so, I started the
computer this afternoon and find it is back.

I have a Toshiba Satelite with Windows 8.1 4gb ram i-3CPU. 500gb disk

This afternoon when I cam home and turned the computer on both
Thunderbird 31.5.0 and Firefox 36.0.1 would not come up with out the
warning they had to be reset. Without doing any thing to any thing, I
closed the warning windows.

Based on previous experience, I checked to see if there was a Windows
8.1 update. The Windows Malicioius Software remove tool wanted to be
updated.

WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING TO THE MOZILLA PRODUCTS, I down loaded the
Malicious Software Update, and allowed it to install. I rebooted the
computer. I then went on to do what I had turned the computer to do
with Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird. Both open normally with out
changing any thing in the program.

This has been a common occurance for the past year. I don't know if the
Malicious Software Removal Tool was involved with every update but this
morning it was the only program updated.

As I said this has been going on for many months through several
revision of the Mozilla products.

Why does Windows think it necessary to interfer with other product, just
because they have an update to install?


I have and use all the software you mention. But I've never had this
problem.
I suspect that the cause may lie elsewhere; and that you cured it
temporarily not by running the Windows update, but by the subsequent
reboot. This can be tested for in future by simply trying a reboot when
it recurs.

Ed

  #3  
Old March 7th 15, 08:44 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Gene E. Bloch[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,485
Default Problems caused by Windows Update

On Sat, 07 Mar 2015 18:28:50 +0000, Ed Cryer wrote:

Keith Nuttle wrote:
While I have not had this problem in a month or so, I started the
computer this afternoon and find it is back.

I have a Toshiba Satelite with Windows 8.1 4gb ram i-3CPU. 500gb disk

This afternoon when I cam home and turned the computer on both
Thunderbird 31.5.0 and Firefox 36.0.1 would not come up with out the
warning they had to be reset. Without doing any thing to any thing, I
closed the warning windows.

Based on previous experience, I checked to see if there was a Windows
8.1 update. The Windows Malicioius Software remove tool wanted to be
updated.

WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING TO THE MOZILLA PRODUCTS, I down loaded the
Malicious Software Update, and allowed it to install. I rebooted the
computer. I then went on to do what I had turned the computer to do
with Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird. Both open normally with out
changing any thing in the program.

This has been a common occurance for the past year. I don't know if the
Malicious Software Removal Tool was involved with every update but this
morning it was the only program updated.

As I said this has been going on for many months through several
revision of the Mozilla products.

Why does Windows think it necessary to interfer with other product, just
because they have an update to install?


I have and use all the software you mention. But I've never had this
problem.
I suspect that the cause may lie elsewhere; and that you cured it
temporarily not by running the Windows update, but by the subsequent
reboot. This can be tested for in future by simply trying a reboot when
it recurs.

Ed


+1

The accusation of Windows software causing it is a textbook example of
post hoc, propter hoc.

Actually, rereading the post, it's possibly an example of non hoc,
propter hoc.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)
  #4  
Old March 7th 15, 10:07 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Ken Blake, MVP[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,699
Default Problems caused by Windows Update

On Sat, 7 Mar 2015 11:44:02 -0800, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:


Actually, rereading the post, it's possibly an example of non hoc,
propter hoc.




You must have let ergo.

  #5  
Old March 7th 15, 11:44 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Gene E. Bloch[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,485
Default Problems caused by Windows Update

On Sat, 07 Mar 2015 19:55:46 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote:

On Sat, 7 Mar 2015 11:44:02 -0800, "Gene E. Bloch" wrote:

On Sat, 07 Mar 2015 18:28:50 +0000, Ed Cryer wrote:

Keith Nuttle wrote:
While I have not had this problem in a month or so, I started the
computer this afternoon and find it is back.

I have a Toshiba Satelite with Windows 8.1 4gb ram i-3CPU. 500gb disk

This afternoon when I cam home and turned the computer on both
Thunderbird 31.5.0 and Firefox 36.0.1 would not come up with out the
warning they had to be reset. Without doing any thing to any thing, I
closed the warning windows.

Based on previous experience, I checked to see if there was a Windows
8.1 update. The Windows Malicioius Software remove tool wanted to be
updated.

WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING TO THE MOZILLA PRODUCTS, I down loaded the
Malicious Software Update, and allowed it to install. I rebooted the
computer. I then went on to do what I had turned the computer to do
with Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird. Both open normally with out
changing any thing in the program.

This has been a common occurance for the past year. I don't know if the
Malicious Software Removal Tool was involved with every update but this
morning it was the only program updated.

As I said this has been going on for many months through several
revision of the Mozilla products.

Why does Windows think it necessary to interfer with other product, just
because they have an update to install?

I have and use all the software you mention. But I've never had this
problem.
I suspect that the cause may lie elsewhere; and that you cured it
temporarily not by running the Windows update, but by the subsequent
reboot. This can be tested for in future by simply trying a reboot when
it recurs.

Ed


+1

The accusation of Windows software causing it is a textbook example of
post hoc, propter hoc.

Actually, rereading the post, it's possibly an example of non hoc,
propter hoc.


There is nothing quite as impressive as using a dead language to illustrate a
point....... ;-)

Good afternoon Gene......


It's my only way to not be yelled at by native speakers. And I also
avoid being accused of murdering the language, come to think of it.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)
  #6  
Old March 8th 15, 12:25 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,881
Default Problems caused by Windows Update

Keith Nuttle wrote:

While I have not had this problem in a month or so, I started the
computer this afternoon and find it is back.

I have a Toshiba Satelite with Windows 8.1 4gb ram i-3CPU. 500gb disk

This afternoon when I cam home and turned the computer on both
Thunderbird 31.5.0 and Firefox 36.0.1 would not come up with out the
warning they had to be reset. Without doing any thing to any thing, I
closed the warning windows.


How is the Automatic Updates (Windows Updates) service configured? Do
you allow it to automatically download and automatically install
updates? If so, a reboot may be required (even if not stated) to
complete installation of all updates.

Does "turned the computer on" mean you did a cold boot or you resumed
from standby or hibernate power modes? A cold boot is required to allow
updates to install during Windows startup.

Did you try starting Thunderbird and Firefox in their safe modes to
eliminate them also loading any add-ons that you installed for them?

Based on previous experience, I checked to see if there was a Windows
8.1 update. The Windows Malicioius Software remove tool wanted to be
updated.


That is what got proffered to you *after* the above mentioned failure to
load Mozilla programs. You will need to look at the history of updates
to see what got installed *before* the problem arose.

In Windows 7 (might be the same in Windows 8), run:

C:\Windows\System32\control.exe /name Microsoft.WindowsUpdate

to get into the Windows Updates wizard. In the left pane, click on
"View update history". If not sorted (descending) by date, click on the
Date column header. That might clue you in as to what updates got
applied just before the Mozilla load problem started.

Have you looked in Event Viewer to check for errors at the time you trid
to load the Mozilla programs?

WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING TO THE MOZILLA PRODUCTS, I down loaded the
Malicious Software Update, and allowed it to install.


That does not "install". You download, it runs just once, and only
shows you a dialog after its scan if it finds nothing untoward. The
mrt.exe file remains on your computer but it is not used again. Next
month you get a new version with an updated malware catalog.

I rebooted the computer. I then went on to do what I had turned the
computer to do with Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird.


Okay, whatever that 2nd sentence was supposed to mean. My guess is that
the Mozilla products load okay after a cold reboot.

Both open normally with out changing any thing in the program.


Does that eliminate the problem completely or only for that Windows
session?

This has been a common occurance for the past year. I don't know if the
Malicious Software Removal Tool was involved with every update but this
morning it was the only program updated.

As I said this has been going on for many months through several
revision of the Mozilla products.

Why does Windows think it necessary to interfer with other product, just
because they have an update to install?


MSRT doesn't install. It runs. It runs just once to do a scan for
malware. Each month a new version of MSRT is available via the WU site
(because obviously the catalog of malware will change during that time).
So the problem may have been going on for months because each month
there is a new version of MSRT to run. There is nothing shown to you
after MSRT completes its scan?

More info at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malicio...e_Removal_Tool
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/890830/

The wikipedia article mentions some software that MSRT may delete or
interfere. It may also make unannounced changes to settings it
considers malicious. Do you have pristine installs of Thunderbird and
Firefox or have you added a bunch of add-ons to them?

What anti-malware do you have running resident?

Other than the MSRT that runs (not installs), do you usually reboot
after applying updates from the WU site? Although you may not be
informed to reboot after some updates, I've found some will interfere
with the OS or apps until a reboot is done. Some updates also require a
reboot because they have to change files that are inuse or locked, so
those have to get replaced early in the Windows startup. So perhaps you
had updates applied but had not done a reboot so they were still pending
a reboot to complete them. You might've only seen the MSRT update for
today but past updates were still waiting for a reboot to complete their
installation. I leave my computer running 24x7 but always reboot after
a Windows update whether they mention it or not.
  #7  
Old March 8th 15, 03:27 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Keith Nuttle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,844
Default Problems caused by Windows Update

On 3/7/2015 6:25 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:


How is the Automatic Updates (Windows Updates) service configured? Do
you allow it to automatically download and automatically install
updates? If so, a reboot may be required (even if not stated) to
complete installation of all updates.

The Updates are set to automatically check and notify me of the update.
I then manually intiate the update. It is a laptop and not always
available for update.

Does "turned the computer on" mean you did a cold boot or you resumed
from standby or hibernate power modes? A cold boot is required to allow
updates to install during Windows startup.


I always turn the computer off and do cold boots.


Did you try starting Thunderbird and Firefox in their safe modes to
eliminate them also loading any add-ons that you installed for them?


The warning is give, before Firefox or Thunderbird is loaded, so the
safe mode does not come into play.


That is what got proffered to you *after* the above mentioned failure to
load Mozilla programs. You will need to look at the history of updates
to see what got installed *before* the problem arose.


The computer had been loading and running Firefox and Thunderbird for
weeks with no problem after the previous update.


In Windows 7 (might be the same in Windows 8), run:
C:\Windows\System32\control.exe /name Microsoft.WindowsUpdate

to get into the Windows Updates wizard. In the left pane, click on
"View update history". If not sorted (descending) by date, click on the
Date column header. That might clue you in as to what updates got
applied just before the Mozilla load problem started.

Have you looked in Event Viewer to check for errors at the time you trid
to load the Mozilla programs?

The recent Windows Updates is available by right clicking the MS Icon
and selecting System in the menu, . (Winodows 8.1) In this case I
watched the Malicious removal tool download and install and then System,
Windows Updates, and View Update History, to confirm the complete name.


WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING TO THE MOZILLA PRODUCTS, I down loaded the
Malicious Software Update, and allowed it to install.


That does not "install". You download, it runs just once, and only
shows you a dialog after its scan if it finds nothing untoward. The
mrt.exe file remains on your computer but it is not used again. Next
month you get a new version with an updated malware catalog.

I rebooted the computer. I then went on to do what I had turned the
computer to do with Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird.


Okay, whatever that 2nd sentence was supposed to mean. My guess is that
the Mozilla products load okay after a cold reboot.

It means that after the cold reboot.

After the reboot, I could use Firefox and Thunderbird with out any
warning messages, the same as I could be for the problem occured.


Both open normally with out changing any thing in the program.


Does that eliminate the problem completely or only for that Windows
session?


Once the Malicious Removal tools runs and the reboot occurs, Firefox and
Thunderbird run the same as they did before the problem occured.


The wikipedia article mentions some software that MSRT may delete or
interfere. It may also make unannounced changes to settings it
considers malicious. Do you have pristine installs of Thunderbird and
Firefox or have you added a bunch of add-ons to them?

Each has addons installed. The addons do not change the basic functions
of either program. An Example is Quicknote a note taking program.

Note the problem occured when the update was available not when the
update ran.

What anti-malware do you have running resident?


I use McAfee Total Protection which runs on start up and manually run
Malwarebytes periodically

Other than the MSRT that runs (not installs), do you usually reboot
after applying updates from the WU site?


Always, and I shut the computer down, so it does a cold boot when I use
in the next time.

The frustrating thing about this problem is that it happens after the
notification, and the update programs have not run.

Unfortunately I did not check the event viewer, and don't remember
exactly time when the problem occured.

Although you may not be
informed to reboot after some updates, I've found some will interfere
with the OS or apps until a reboot is done. Some updates also require a
reboot because they have to change files that are inuse or locked, so
those have to get replaced early in the Windows startup. So perhaps you
had updates applied but had not done a reboot so they were still pending
a reboot to complete them. You might've only seen the MSRT update for
today but past updates were still waiting for a reboot to complete their
installation. I leave my computer running 24x7 but always reboot after
a Windows update whether they mention it or not.


  #8  
Old March 8th 15, 07:00 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,881
Default Problems caused by Windows Update

Keith Nuttle wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

Did you try starting Thunderbird and Firefox in their safe modes to
eliminate them also loading any add-ons that you installed for them?


The warning is give, before Firefox or Thunderbird is loaded, so the
safe mode does not come into play.


"Thunderbird 31.5.0 and Firefox 36.0.1 would not come up with out the
warning they had to be reset. Without doing any thing to any thing, I
closed the warning windows."

You cannot get a warning from a program unless it is running. Modifying
your statement to eliminate the double negatives gives "[they] warn they
have to be reset when they come up (are loaded)." The reset warning you
mention would need a program to display it and it seems that would be
one of these programs.

Oh, by the way, have you configured these programs to auto-update,
including any add-ons, too?

The computer had been loading and running Firefox and Thunderbird for
weeks with no problem after the previous update.


So MSRT was the only offering in the very last update afterwhich the
problems start in the Mozilla programs?

Once the Malicious Removal tools runs and the reboot occurs, Firefox and
Thunderbird run the same as they did before the problem occured.


You said nothing is running during and upon completion of the Windows
Updates (which is just offering MSRT). Have you checked the Processes
tab in Task Manager (and elected to see all processes) to be sure?

Have you tried downloading the MSRT program yourself (instead of via the
WU site), disabled your anti-virus, anti-malware, and other security
software and then run MSRT (and reenable your security stuff afterward)?

Each has addons installed. The addons do not change the basic functions
of either program. An Example is Quicknote a note taking program.


You still need to disable all add-ons by starting the apps in their safe
mode as a troubleshooting step to ensure they aren't causing the
problem. If an add-on hangs or crashes on startup then the same happens
to the parent program (web browser). If an add-on hangs or crashes on
exit request to the parent program then the same happens to the parent
program.

Note the problem occured when the update was available not when the
update ran.


Huh? You're now saying that just getting notification about the update
causes problems with loading Thunderbird and Firefox?

What anti-malware do you have running resident?


I use McAfee Total Protection which runs on start up and manually run
Malwarebytes periodically


It can be temporarily disabled or disabled until a reboot as choices,
correct? Anti-virus and other security software can both interfere with
installations and can also conflict with other security software. While
they try to make their programs compatible with each other, they don't
guarantee that.

The frustrating thing about this problem is that it happens after the
notification, and the update programs have not run.


Did you configure WU to "notify only" or to "download and notify"? I've
found some updates from Microsoft get installed although you told it
only to download the update (and not install it). Usually this is
evidenced when you did not elect to install the updates that did get
updates but on a subsequent reboot Windows tells you it is installing
updates as it loads. Microsoft plays loose with their definition of
"download". Make sure WU is configured to "notify only". Do not
download until you are ready, like after saving a backup image.

Unfortunately I did not check the event viewer, and don't remember
exactly time when the problem occured.


Then the BootScreenView utility is probably a better choice. It will
show a chain of dependent processes and often indicate which one was the
culprit in a crash. It isn't always the process first listed. That's
the one that got corrupted by another process.

I forgot what Windows was claiming in Event Viewer as the cause of a
crash but that wasn't it. It did show some info about an ATI driver
file. BlueScreenView showed me the chain of processes and, yep, I could
see an ATI driver file (not the main driver but one for ancilliary
features) was crashing. A new version of a driver doesn't mean a better
version, just different code with different bugs. Some old video games
couldn't use the newest ATI/AMD video drivers so I had to repeatedly
install different versions to find out which version(s) were best
between my games and apps and Windows.

In Event Viewer, once you pick a log (Application, System, etc), you can
search those events. You could search (Action - Find) on "bugcheck"
and "shutdown". You can skip the "Information" only events. However,
often an info event occurs before a critical error event, so look for
those within a minute after the info event. By default the event logs
are shown in descending order so the error event would precede the info
event that is tied to the error event.

At this point, you might as well as clear each log (right-click on each
log type - App, System, etc and choose to clear its log). Rather than
have to sift through thousands of event entries, you'll have a much
short list.
  #9  
Old March 8th 15, 06:22 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Ed Cryer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,621
Default Problems caused by Windows Update

Keith Nuttle wrote:
While I have not had this problem in a month or so, I started the
computer this afternoon and find it is back.

I have a Toshiba Satelite with Windows 8.1 4gb ram i-3CPU. 500gb disk

This afternoon when I cam home and turned the computer on both
Thunderbird 31.5.0 and Firefox 36.0.1 would not come up with out the
warning they had to be reset. Without doing any thing to any thing, I
closed the warning windows.

Based on previous experience, I checked to see if there was a Windows
8.1 update. The Windows Malicioius Software remove tool wanted to be
updated.

WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING TO THE MOZILLA PRODUCTS, I down loaded the
Malicious Software Update, and allowed it to install. I rebooted the
computer. I then went on to do what I had turned the computer to do
with Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird. Both open normally with out
changing any thing in the program.

This has been a common occurance for the past year. I don't know if the
Malicious Software Removal Tool was involved with every update but this
morning it was the only program updated.

As I said this has been going on for many months through several
revision of the Mozilla products.

Why does Windows think it necessary to interfer with other product, just
because they have an update to install?


I've googled for "Firefox reset" with "Windows Update" and not found
anything useful. "Reset Firefox" seems to mean go back to all default
settings.
To help me google further I'd need to know some more;
The wording of the message. Is it a Windows message? How is it framed?

Ed

  #10  
Old March 8th 15, 07:39 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
knuttle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 262
Default Problems caused by Windows Update

On 3/8/2015 1:22 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:
While I have not had this problem in a month or so, I started the
computer this afternoon and find it is back.

I have a Toshiba Satelite with Windows 8.1 4gb ram i-3CPU. 500gb disk

This afternoon when I cam home and turned the computer on both
Thunderbird 31.5.0 and Firefox 36.0.1 would not come up with out the
warning they had to be reset. Without doing any thing to any thing, I
closed the warning windows.

Based on previous experience, I checked to see if there was a Windows
8.1 update. The Windows Malicioius Software remove tool wanted to be
updated.

WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING TO THE MOZILLA PRODUCTS, I down loaded the
Malicious Software Update, and allowed it to install. I rebooted the
computer. I then went on to do what I had turned the computer to do
with Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird. Both open normally with out
changing any thing in the program.

This has been a common occurance for the past year. I don't know if the
Malicious Software Removal Tool was involved with every update but this
morning it was the only program updated.

As I said this has been going on for many months through several
revision of the Mozilla products.

Why does Windows think it necessary to interfer with other product, just
because they have an update to install?


I've googled for "Firefox reset" with "Windows Update" and not found
anything useful. "Reset Firefox" seems to mean go back to all default
settings.
To help me google further I'd need to know some more;
The wording of the message. Is it a Windows message? How is it framed?

Ed

Right now both Firefox and Thunderbird are working as expected, no
warnings. I will do a screen copy at the next Windows Update when I
get the error window.
  #11  
Old March 9th 15, 06:44 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
...winston‫
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,128
Default Problems caused by Windows Update

Keith Nuttle wrote:
While I have not had this problem in a month or so, I started the
computer this afternoon and find it is back.

I have a Toshiba Satelite with Windows 8.1 4gb ram i-3CPU. 500gb disk

This afternoon when I cam home and turned the computer on both
Thunderbird 31.5.0 and Firefox 36.0.1 would not come up with out the
warning they had to be reset. Without doing any thing to any thing, I
closed the warning windows.

Based on previous experience, I checked to see if there was a Windows
8.1 update. The Windows Malicioius Software remove tool wanted to be
updated.

WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING TO THE MOZILLA PRODUCTS, I down loaded the
Malicious Software Update, and allowed it to install. I rebooted the
computer. I then went on to do what I had turned the computer to do
with Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird. Both open normally with out
changing any thing in the program.

This has been a common occurance for the past year. I don't know if the
Malicious Software Removal Tool was involved with every update but this
morning it was the only program updated.

As I said this has been going on for many months through several
revision of the Mozilla products.

Why does Windows think it necessary to interfer with other product, just
because they have an update to install?


The last MSRT update was released Feb 10.

--
....winston
msft mvp consumer apps
 




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