Can Adobe Illustrator read in a Microsoft PowerPoint & with fonts?

Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 13:15:03 +0100, schrieb J. P. Gilliver (John):

There's another question you need to be asking, and you need to be
asking the shop - unless you already have: regardless of whether
Illustrator _can_ accept input in any format you supply them, are they
_going_ to do a (possibly unnecessary) "manual layout" stage anyway (and
charge you for it)? If they're going to do it anyway, there's no point
in your continuing to go round in circles here. Another way to rephrase
the question: "What format can I give you that will avoid the manual
layout charge?"

Under normal "commercial" circumstances, this would be a fine question, so
I certainly understand that you're making a relevant suggestion.

The problem is personalities are involved, in that this is a community
effort (hence the use of PowerPoint), and the people doing the printing are
actually one of the families of the residents where that question has been
asked and they keep saying "just give it to us in any format".

So, in actuality, the starting and stopping points are out of my control:
1. Start point is PowerPoint
2. Stopping point is Adobe Illustrator

My only question is what format is *most easily* read directly into Adobe
Illustrator given those are the fixed rigid start and stop points.


Depending on what sort of relationship you have with the shop, such as
will they let you see them working, I'd be taking just the first sign to
them in a variety of formats - I'd suggest PowerPoint, GIF, and
PDF-with-embedded-font - and asking to see them working with them.
Probably PDF first. as I think that's the _most_ likely to be usable
automatically, followed by GIF.

I may need to tell you more than you'll want to know, once you figure out
that this whole situation is a "personality mess", in that the "shop" is
essentially the kids of one of the neighbors on this project.

They're not the most responsive of human beings. I would be killed if they
saw me even asking this question on the net but I doubt any of them have
ever heard of the word Usenet.

It's a community project, with personalized signs, on a specific roadway,
where the signs must look "similar" for decor reasons, but they all say
something different at each property, where what they say is up to the
property owners.

So that explains, in more detail than you need to know, why we used
PowerPoint, because we have a group of non-technical property owners who
were all given the same PowerPoint template, and told to simply modify
their one page to their liking.

I was only given the task of assembling the powerpoint slides from each
neighbor into a single document, and then I was told whom to hand it to.

Those people I hand it to are one of the neighbors on the project, so I
don't get to choose what I call the "shop". I just don't.

I did ask them the question, and they did tell me to just give it to them
in any format that I can, where I'm sure they'd take hand-written pieces of
paper given that they don't seem to care what format it's in.

Having explained that, it's really only *me* who is utterly flabbergasted
that they can't just load a file into Adobe Illustrator to minimize the
setup work.

Nobody else is even noticing that it's extremely wasteful to have them do
that, and, for all they care, it doesn't matter.

So, this wasteful manual setup doesn't matter to the shop. It doesn't
matter to the neighbors. It only matters to me.

I can't understand why I can't just give the shop a file that doesn't need
any setup in Adobe Illustrator.

So that's why I'm asking the question of you.

If you have never sucked in a file from PowerPoint into Adobe Illustrator,
you'll never be able to answer the question, because the question is
clearly specific to Adobe Illustrator and Powerpoint.

I realize that's more than you want to know ... but the fact is that this
*is* really a simple question.

Q: What slide format can Powerpoint output that can be sucked directly into
Adobe Illustrator such that there is the least amount of setup required?

I can see several possibilities, which are more negotiational than
technical:

I hope my explanation above shows why "negotiation" isn't the problem here
since there will be no negotiation. It's just not possible under the
circumstances of keeping a friendly neighborhood friendly.

It's just *me* who has the problem.
Nobody else even *cares* about the problem.

Not the neighbors.
Not the shop.

It's just me who is flabbergasted that we can't technically hand the shop a
file that they can just use.

That technical concept boggles my mind.
Hence my question.

1. The shop base their business model on _always_ doing - and charging
for - the layout stage.
2. They _could_ avoid the layout stage and use what you supply, but only
_know_ how to use one particular format (and are ashamed to admit that).
3. There _is_ some minor tweak you could do that would help.

I actually suspect the shop is incompetent, but that's again completely out
of my control. I don't get to choose the shop.

The only thing I get to choose is what format file I give to the shop.

I can't tell the shop what to do unless I know myself that there is a file
format that powerpoint can output that can *directly* be used by Adobe
Illustrator without any need for manual setup.

I just can't.
I need to be armed with that information *before* I tell the shop anything
of how they should do their business.

There are two dilemmas here, only one of which I can solve.
1. There is a personality dilemma, which I can not solve and I'm not
attempting to solve and which is outside the scope of this newsgroup.
2. There is a simple technical dilemma here, which nobody can solve unless
they've actually done it - because it requires proof of concept, which is
what format can PowerPoint output that Adobe Illustrator can directly use
to print a typical "no parking" style sign.

All the discussion here has been based on variations of option 3., but
it sounds to _me_ as if you aren't talking to the shop enough, to
establish whether 2. or 1. is the case. I may be completely wrong in
this, of course.

You are astute in that the real personal problem is our relationship with
the shop, but that's *not* at all the question here.

The question here is simply a technical question, which is outside the
scope of *any* particular shop.

The technical question is actually pretty simple, but it can only be
answered by someone who has done it, since we all know that file format
conversions suck for the most part, since we're all in our 60s, 70s, and
80s, and we've seen the simplest things fail many times.

The answer to the technical question is all that I seek here.
I do not seek any solution to the personality problem at the shop.
I just can't solve that problem anyway.

The best I can do is tell the shop to suck in format X, and to *directly*
print that format X to the vinyl sheet.

If that technical solution doesn't work - I'm dead.

So I don't want to tell the shop to use it until I know that it actually
works.

Really ... this is just a simple technical question where all your concerns
are perfectly valid if I was making the decisions. But I'm not.

My only role in this endeavor is to assemble the individual signs and then
provide them to the shop.

I just can't fathom why they have to do manual work, so I'd like to know
what to *tell* them to do - but if I'm not right - they'll kill me.

Have they - e. g. in their published price lists (paper or website) -
provided any indication that they ever _don't_ do the manual layout
stage? Them saying "we accept any format" makes me think they treat all
formats the same as they would a paper copy.

I don't think the shop cares about anything, and neither do the neighbors
who are footing the bill together.

It's not really a bill thing, in the end, to me ... but more of a shameful
waste.

The engineer in me *hates* to see people doing anything *manual* when all
we're doing is printing signs to vinyl sheets.

Nobody else on this project even cares about the manual layout.
So of course, the simplest social answer is to just give up.
And I did just give up (on the original set of signs).

But the technical engineer in me is just appalled that any *manual* setup
is required. It's just appalling. What the heck does Adobe Illustrator do
if it can't suck in a file and print it?

Anyway, that's really far more than you want to know, but I have to stop
dancing around the social issue so I said it bluntly (and if any of them
ever get on the Usenet, they'll kill me for telling you all that).

*In the end, there is only one simple technical question being asked:*

Q: What format can PPT output that AI can suck in directly to print
no-parking-style signs to vinyl with the *least* amount of manual setup
required?

Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 08:44:24 -0400, schrieb Neil:

From what you've written before, it sounds like the signs are rather
simple rectangular objects.

Warning...

I'm going to give you far more information than you need, to answer that
question, which I appreciate, since it's a logical question for you to ask.

Here is a screenshot of the original sample PowerPoint file, named
"signs.pptx", that was provided to the neighbors with the instructions to
modify anything they wanted to modify at will except the lowest line, which
is the town ordinance.
http://i.cubeupload.com/pK8NQE.gif

Does the shop have to modify them in some
way? If not, there's no benefit to involving Illustrator, and if so,
they can place the file in Illustrator just as you, and it takes almost
no time to do so.

The shop is supposed to simply print the signs to the right size, bearing
in mind that the holes are already accounted for in the layout of the
original sign.

To show you what the input is, here is the actual powerpoint file, named
signs.pptx, that was handed to all the neighbors as the original template
for them to modify:
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/H5GDdHA1/file.html

It seems to me that there is a lack of familiarity with Illustrator.
That they use Illustrator to create original graphics only underscores
the fact that they rely on PostScript devices, like almost every print
shop in the world at this point in time. Valid PDF files can be sent
directly to output, since the file format is PostScript. Nothing will be
more efficient or save more time and effort than that.

My suggestion would be, once again, to concentrate on creating valid PDF
file of your artwork. Your shop can verify this.

The only question here is what format requires the least amount of manual
effort.

Given that is the question, I agree with your technical assessment that the
only format that seems to make sense is the PDF format, where here is an
actual PDF file of that powerpoint document, named signs.pdf:
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/abXkQMAN/file.html

If someone here has Adobe Illustrator, and if they can suck in that file,
maybe they can tell us what they would need to do by way of manual layout
to print a 12x18 inch sign on a vinyl printer.

Am 30 Mar 2018 17:45:34 GMT, schrieb Frank Slootweg:

[N.B. J. P. Gilliver rightly brought up the vector (PDF) versus raster
(GIF/TIFF) aspect, but the OP confirmed that for his roadsigns that's
not an issue.]

Here is a screenshot of the template handed to the neighbors with the
instructions to modify as needed, where the holes are already accounted
for, and the only caveat is that they can't modify the bottom line because
that will contain the legal ordinance information that must be consistent
on all the signs.
http://i.cubeupload.com/pK8NQE.gif

Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 08:26:29 -0400, schrieb Wolf K:

A careful reading of previous threads

A careful reading of /all/ my threads shows an attention to detail so that
the questions can be answered with sufficient detail to work in the real
world.

I have even provided the actual powerpoint file, which you, yourself, can
load, if you need to satisfy yourself that the technical problem is a valid
technical question to ask of this newsgroup.

Here it is, where it's a Windows 10 Office 2007 file named "signs.pptx":
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/H5GDdHA1/file.html

Am 30 Mar 2018 17:43:06 GMT, schrieb Frank Slootweg:

He only likes 'problems' which he can stretch out forever. What N.
dislikes even more than answers/solutions, is people showing him the
errors of his ways. Then he can become real nasty and will lie, cheat,
belittle, insult, etc.. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

Hi Frank,

I've been on Usenet for decades so I am familiar with your rants.
And, I've interacted with you where you know I only speak verifiable fact.

For example, I remember you from the iOS newsgroup, where you thought that
megabits were the same as decibels. Remember that one? Since I only speak
valid facts, here's a link to your own post to refresh your memory.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/PZuec56EWB0/VGtq9RzpBgAJ

I also remember you on the Android newsgroup where you very recently
errantly repeatedly argued senselessly that certain well-known
easily-modified nntp headers weren't actually modifiable. Remember that
one? Since I only speak verifiable facts, here's a link to the first of
your own posts in your long senseless diatribe to refresh your memory.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/sgzGVamjKU0/LK9yTmciAQAJ

As anyone can see, I only speak valid verifiable facts.

Nonetheless, I see you are now on the Windows newsgroups, where, if you're
concerned that you feel I don't speak facts, you can just load this PDF
file into your Adobe Illustrator app to tell us all how much technical
effort it would take to modify it in order to print it to the 12x18 inch
vinyl sign.

If you don't know the answer to that simple technical question, that's ok -
but if you don't know the answer, then your post is just adding to the
noise level, is it not?

That is, if you won't or can't help answer the question, ,then you won't or
can't help us get the answer - and you'll just be adding to the noise level
since I am forced to respond to your rants by their very nature.

In short, please only respond if you have additional technical information
that helps everyone.

Thanks!

Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 11:52:31 -0700, schrieb Ragnusen Ultred:

Nonetheless, I see you are now on the Windows newsgroups, where, if you're
concerned that you feel I don't speak facts, you can just load this PDF
file into your Adobe Illustrator app to tell us all how much technical
effort it would take to modify it in order to print it to the 12x18 inch
vinyl sign.

OOps. I forgot to include the PDF file for Frank to validate since he seems
to be always questioning the veracity of facts in the iOS and Android, and
now in the Windows newsgroup (but he has not yet once added any technical
value).
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/abXkQMAN/file.html

Here's Frank's chance to add technical value.

Frank.

If you want to add technical value, just load that PDF file, named
"signs.pdf" into your Adobe Illustrator app, and let us know how much
manual effort you'd require to print it to a 12x18" vinyl printer.

Thanks!

On 3/30/2018 2:31 PM, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 08:44:24 -0400, schrieb Neil:

From what you've written before, it sounds like the signs are rather
simple rectangular objects.

Warning...

I'm going to give you far more information than you need, to answer that
question, which I appreciate, since it's a logical question for you to ask.

Here is a screenshot of the original sample PowerPoint file, named
"signs.pptx", that was provided to the neighbors with the instructions to
modify anything they wanted to modify at will except the lowest line, which
is the town ordinance.
http://i.cubeupload.com/pK8NQE.gif

As I thought, these are simple signs that would require no modification
from your print shop if you didn't insist on making them work by trying
to supply an Illustrator file. Here's a clue: you will be charged for
manual layout whenever the source material that you deliver is in
Illustrator format. If you knew what Illustrator is, you'd know why.

--
best regards,

Neil

To the audience: You'd better skip this.

My apologies, but I've had enough of his lying, cheating, belittleing,
insulting, etc..

Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
Am 30 Mar 2018 17:43:06 GMT, schrieb Frank Slootweg:

He only likes 'problems' which he can stretch out forever. What N.
dislikes even more than answers/solutions, is people showing him the
errors of his ways. Then he can become real nasty and will lie, cheat,
belittle, insult, etc.. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

Hi Frank,

I've been on Usenet for decades so I am familiar with your rants.
And, I've interacted with you where you know I only speak verifiable fact.

s/speak verifiable fact/lie through my teeth/

See below.

For example, I remember you from the iOS newsgroup, where you thought that
megabits were the same as decibels. Remember that one? Since I only speak
valid facts, here's a link to your own post to refresh your memory.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/PZuec56EWB0/VGtq9RzpBgAJ

quote
I'm anything but a 'harry' supporter, but exactly *what* in your video
do you think cannot be done on Android?
/quote

That's lie number 1! In this post, I am supporting 'harry', i.e.
*you*. Your beef was with Snit, not me. (BTW, you can't "remember you
from the iOS newsgroup", because I don't subscribe to that group. The
above example was crossposted.)

I also remember you on the Android newsgroup where you very recently
errantly repeatedly argued senselessly that certain well-known
easily-modified nntp headers weren't actually modifiable. Remember that
one? Since I only speak verifiable facts, here's a link to the first of
your own posts in your long senseless diatribe to refresh your memory.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/sgzGVamjKU0/LK9yTmciAQAJ

And that's lie number 2! Again, just read what *I* *wrote*, not *your*
*misrepresentation/falsification* of it.

quote
That you say "as can the news server" and "as can any of the headers"
(note: any) shows that you do *not* (fully) know what you're talking
about.
/quote

Fact: You [1] can *not* modify *all* NetNews headers, hence my comment
on your claim that you can modify "any" - i.e. *all* - headers.

[1] 'You' is generic you, i.e. no (non-newsadmin) user can modify all
headers.

But you're right about the "long senseless" bit, but that was all
yours.

Anyway, after your umpteenth lie, I demanded proof, but of course you
didn't deliver.

It's all in news
And now, you lie again and again.

I have kept this out until now, but I can't anymo

Why do you intentionally antagonize people with this kind of rubbish,
when you are - as you (at least) once said - aware of the problems which
stem from your disorder?

[...]

Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 07:38:51 -0400, schrieb Paul:

The PDF seems to work.

Hi Paul,
I think you solved the technical question with that test where I don't have
Adobe Illustrator so I can't prove it out, so I have to use your proof
below!

Q: What's the best format to output from PowerPoint such that the result
can be printed to a 12x18" vinyl sheet from Adobe Illustrator with no
manual re-layout? http://i.cubeupload.com/pK8NQE.gif
A: PDF with embedded TrueType fonts.

BTW, here is the sign.pptx original from Windows 10 MS Office 2007:
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/H5GDdHA1/file.html

And this is the PDF with the whole font embedded:
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/abXkQMAN/file.html

Here is a simulation.

1) Sample file made in LibreOffice Impress (the equivalent of PowerPoint).
I selected a paper size of 17"x11" and I don't know if I could
have selected a paper size that you wanted. In any case,
this is the PDF exported from LibreOffice. The fonts are embedded.

You bring up a good point, Paul, in that the "paper size" is probably
critical in that it must be, I would think, the same 'aspect ratio' as the
sign.

The sign is 12x18".
Looking at the signs.pptx file, I'm not sure where the "paper size" is set.

Oh, ok. That was easy. The paper size in that original PPTX is 12x18 inches
as shown here from the Office 2007 command sequence:
Ribbon Design Page Setup Width=12 inches, Height=18 inches
http://i.cubeupload.com/mALZ03.gif

Thank you for bringing up that paper-size issue, where we just confirmed
that the paper size is the same as the sign size!

I didn't want to put the word "squirrel" at the top of the drawing,
and LibreOffice tries to embed LiberationSerif font for nothing.
I added the title "squirrel" and applied LibrationSerif font, so
it would have something to embed. This stopped one warning from
Acrobat Reader when I verified the document exported.

https://s17.postimg.org/hne85qcbj/ex...uirrel_pdf.gif

I see the "squirrel" file name, where, luckily, Powerpoint doesn't do that.


2) This is Illustrator CS2 pulling in the PDF.

https://s17.postimg.org/4yjxm1qrj/illus_CS2.gif

Illustrator CS2? I'm not familiar with that term. Googling, it seems to be
just the name of the suite of tools, namely "creative suite".

I'll just call that Adobe Illustrator, or AI.

Illustrator complains about both fonts in this case, even
though they're embedded. But it proceeds anyway to convert
the font to outlines and it shows the control points as
being selected.

Hmmmm... why would it complain about fonts?
Are you on Mac? Or Linux? Or Windows?

The Mac can't read embedded fonts in MS Word documents.
Windows can. I don't know about Linux or even if AI runs on Linux.
[Note: I see later you're likely on Windows based on the techspot URL.]

The road-sign font "pack" for free public use is he
http://www.fontspace.com/michael-d-adams/roadgeek-2005

The specific free road-sign font we chose is this:
Roadgeek Series B Regular

I wonder if Adobe Illustrator can just load that font "pack" directly?

The operator would then have to create a CutContour where the
red box I put around the outside is located. That's still going
to cost you a "layout" charge, simply because the machine
cannot start the printing process, unless a CutContour is
defined. Illustrator has at least two kinds of data stored
inside it, while PDF has only one. The Illustrator in a way,
is a "dual representation".

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm... so this "cut contour" is a "manual" step that is required.
Is it a fast step? Or a time-consuming step?

There's no point in me saving out the Illustrator .ai file,
as it really wouldn't have any meaning (i.e. I don't have
any more steps that I can realistically simulate).

I agree. The only output from Adobe Illustrator that matters is the vinyl
printout.

If you remember the CS2 incident, this is what I used for
the simulation, in a VM. You need four files from this page,
a copy of QuickTime 6.0.0 from oldversions, your squirrel4.pdf,
to do the very quick Illustrator test.

https://www.techspot.com/downloads/4...uite-free.html

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.... free?
Adobe Creative Suite 2 for Windows
https://www.techspot.com/downloads/4...uite-free.html
Windows Serial number: 1130-1414-7569-4457-6613-5551

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm... is there a catch?
Let me download that, as until this very moment, I didn't know that Adobe
Illustrator was free.

This test doesn't prove much of anything, except that the PDF
does pull into Illustrator.

I think all that matters is you proved the design sucks in nicely, but the
fonts "may" be an issue.

The Roadgeek Series B Regular font set may need to be loaded separately
from the site: http://www.fontspace.com/michael-d-adams/roadgeek-2005


If you needed to "re-purpose" the
artwork while it was inside Illustrator, it might be quite
a challenge to do anything with it.

Agreed. But nobody should be re-purposing inside of AI.
All they need to do from AI is print to the vinyl sheet.

It doesn't look like the
importation is "seamless", at least, it doesn't give that
impression so far. But for your purposes, it might not matter.

I think you showed there are two manual steps:
1. CutContour
2. Fonts

How much time would you say these two steps would take for your sign?
http://i.cubeupload.com/pK8NQE.gif

I got the idea to do the test, from here. I didn't need to
tick any boxes like "Convert All Text" or "Convert All Strokes"
and the tool seemed to do more or less what you wanted automatically.

http://blog.globalizationpartners.co...-are-lost.aspx

Paul ... that is a fantastic find!
How to edit PDF files in Adobe Illustrator
http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/using-pdf-in-illustrator-when-source-files-are-lost.aspx

There's a critically important sentence in that page that nobody mentioned,
although it was alluded to, which is this:
"The native Adobe Illustrator file format (*.AI) is PDF, and as such,
AI is one of the best applications supporting direct import/export
to PDF."

That's it.
*There's our technical answer, in a single sentence.*
You can't beat the native format of Adobe Illustrator!

The edge of the font looks pretty weird, and I don't
know exactly how to describe how the font has been
converted. It doesn't look exactly like Bezier.
https://s17.postimg.org/ekijzkbf3/font_edges.gif

The fonts still confuse me a bit, because 'embedding' the font in the PDF
'should' be enough for AI to use the right font, shouldn't it?

The document you found talks a lot about how to change the font but there's
nothing in that document about embedded fonts (the document seems to assume
the fonts are not embedded).

So the main question I will try to get the answer to is the following:
1. CutContour [How much work is this step?]
2. Fonts [Why is this step even needed if the fonts are embedded?]

Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 15:31:27 -0400, schrieb Neil:

As I thought, these are simple signs that would require no modification
from your print shop if you didn't insist on making them work by trying
to supply an Illustrator file. Here's a clue: you will be charged for
manual layout whenever the source material that you deliver is in
Illustrator format. If you knew what Illustrator is, you'd know why.

I apologize if I didn't mention yet that I know absolutely nothing about
Adobe Illustrator.

So, I agree with you that I have no idea what it even means when you say
that I'm creating work for them by trying to supply them with an
Illustrator file. I really don't understand that, because I don't have the
technical experience with Adobe Illustrator to understand that.

But I did just moments ago read Paul's post, where he pointed us all to
this web page, which says, or at least I think it says, that PDF is the
native format of Adobe Illustrator.
How to edit PDF files in Adobe Illustrator
http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/using-pdf-in-illustrator-when-source-files-are-lost.aspx

As for the manual effort involved, Paul tried it himself, where he found
two steps needed to be performed manually (if I understood him correctly)
before the layout could be printed to the vinyl sheets.
1. CutContour [How much work is this step?]
2. Fonts [Why is this step even needed if the fonts are embedded?]

Would you concur with Paul's observations?

On 30/03/2018 21:14, Frank Slootweg wrote:
To the audience: You'd better skip this.

My apologies, but I've had enough of his lying, cheating, belittleing,
insulting, etc..


It took you a very long time to know him; He is a known pedophile who
uses open VPN and using various nyms as you have just realised. The
authorities here in UK have been informed about him so it is just a
matter of time before he is caught. His other nyms we Lionel Muller,
Harry something; Mother ****er; and others. He is in my DB but I can't
access it now as it is offline doing the backups.

He has polluted these newsgroups with his OT cross posting to any
newsgroups he could find. To make things worse, idiots are responding
to him and I only see when the responder is not in my filter list. The
best thing is to not to respond to him but idiots here needs something
to do so they reply to anything posted by him/her.

/--- This email has been checked for viruses by
Windows Defender software.
//https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/comprehensive-security/


--
With over 600 million devices now running Windows 10, customer
satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.

Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 07:38:51 -0400, schrieb Paul:

The PDF seems to work.

Hi Paul,
I think you solved the technical question with that test where I don't
have Adobe Illustrator so I can't prove it out, so I have to use your
proof below!

Q: What's the best format to output from PowerPoint such that the result
can be printed to a 12x18" vinyl sheet from Adobe Illustrator with no
manual re-layout? http://i.cubeupload.com/pK8NQE.gif
A: PDF with embedded TrueType fonts.

BTW, here is the sign.pptx original from Windows 10 MS Office 2007:
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/H5GDdHA1/file.html

And this is the PDF with the whole font embedded:
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/abXkQMAN/file.html

Here is a simulation.

1) Sample file made in LibreOffice Impress (the equivalent of
PowerPoint).
I selected a paper size of 17"x11" and I don't know if I could
have selected a paper size that you wanted. In any case,
this is the PDF exported from LibreOffice. The fonts are embedded.

You bring up a good point, Paul, in that the "paper size" is probably
critical in that it must be, I would think, the same 'aspect ratio' as
the sign.
The sign is 12x18".
Looking at the signs.pptx file, I'm not sure where the "paper size" is set.

Oh, ok. That was easy. The paper size in that original PPTX is 12x18
inches as shown here from the Office 2007 command sequence:
Ribbon Design Page Setup Width=12 inches, Height=18 inches
http://i.cubeupload.com/mALZ03.gif

Thank you for bringing up that paper-size issue, where we just confirmed
that the paper size is the same as the sign size!

I didn't want to put the word "squirrel" at the top of the drawing,
and LibreOffice tries to embed LiberationSerif font for nothing.
I added the title "squirrel" and applied LibrationSerif font, so
it would have something to embed. This stopped one warning from
Acrobat Reader when I verified the document exported.

https://s17.postimg.org/hne85qcbj/ex...uirrel_pdf.gif

I see the "squirrel" file name, where, luckily, Powerpoint doesn't do that.


2) This is Illustrator CS2 pulling in the PDF.

https://s17.postimg.org/4yjxm1qrj/illus_CS2.gif

Illustrator CS2? I'm not familiar with that term. Googling, it seems to
be just the name of the suite of tools, namely "creative suite".

I'll just call that Adobe Illustrator, or AI.

Illustrator complains about both fonts in this case, even
though they're embedded. But it proceeds anyway to convert
the font to outlines and it shows the control points as
being selected.

Hmmmm... why would it complain about fonts?
Are you on Mac? Or Linux? Or Windows?

The Mac can't read embedded fonts in MS Word documents.
Windows can. I don't know about Linux or even if AI runs on Linux.
[Note: I see later you're likely on Windows based on the techspot URL.]

The road-sign font "pack" for free public use is he
http://www.fontspace.com/michael-d-adams/roadgeek-2005

The specific free road-sign font we chose is this:
Roadgeek Series B Regular

I wonder if Adobe Illustrator can just load that font "pack" directly?

The operator would then have to create a CutContour where the
red box I put around the outside is located. That's still going
to cost you a "layout" charge, simply because the machine
cannot start the printing process, unless a CutContour is
defined. Illustrator has at least two kinds of data stored
inside it, while PDF has only one. The Illustrator in a way,
is a "dual representation".

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm... so this "cut contour" is a "manual" step that is
required. Is it a fast step? Or a time-consuming step?

There's no point in me saving out the Illustrator .ai file,
as it really wouldn't have any meaning (i.e. I don't have
any more steps that I can realistically simulate).

I agree. The only output from Adobe Illustrator that matters is the
vinyl printout.

If you remember the CS2 incident, this is what I used for
the simulation, in a VM. You need four files from this page,
a copy of QuickTime 6.0.0 from oldversions, your squirrel4.pdf,
to do the very quick Illustrator test.

https://www.techspot.com/downloads/4...uite-free.html

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.... free? Adobe Creative Suite 2 for Windows
https://www.techspot.com/downloads/4...uite-free.html
Windows Serial number: 1130-1414-7569-4457-6613-5551

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm... is there a catch?
Let me download that, as until this very moment, I didn't know that
Adobe Illustrator was free.

This test doesn't prove much of anything, except that the PDF
does pull into Illustrator.

I think all that matters is you proved the design sucks in nicely, but
the fonts "may" be an issue.

The Roadgeek Series B Regular font set may need to be loaded separately
from the site: http://www.fontspace.com/michael-d-adams/roadgeek-2005


If you needed to "re-purpose" the
artwork while it was inside Illustrator, it might be quite
a challenge to do anything with it.

Agreed. But nobody should be re-purposing inside of AI. All they need to
do from AI is print to the vinyl sheet.

It doesn't look like the
importation is "seamless", at least, it doesn't give that
impression so far. But for your purposes, it might not matter.

I think you showed there are two manual steps:
1. CutContour
2. Fonts

How much time would you say these two steps would take for your sign?
http://i.cubeupload.com/pK8NQE.gif

I got the idea to do the test, from here. I didn't need to
tick any boxes like "Convert All Text" or "Convert All Strokes"
and the tool seemed to do more or less what you wanted automatically.

http://blog.globalizationpartners.co...-are-lost.aspx


Paul ... that is a fantastic find!
How to edit PDF files in Adobe Illustrator
http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/using-pdf-in-illustrator-when-source-files-are-lost.aspx


There's a critically important sentence in that page that nobody
mentioned, although it was alluded to, which is this:
"The native Adobe Illustrator file format (*.AI) is PDF, and as such,
AI is one of the best applications supporting direct import/export to
PDF."

That's it. *There's our technical answer, in a single sentence.*
You can't beat the native format of Adobe Illustrator!

The edge of the font looks pretty weird, and I don't
know exactly how to describe how the font has been
converted. It doesn't look exactly like Bezier.
https://s17.postimg.org/ekijzkbf3/font_edges.gif

The fonts still confuse me a bit, because 'embedding' the font in the
PDF 'should' be enough for AI to use the right font, shouldn't it?

The document you found talks a lot about how to change the font but
there's nothing in that document about embedded fonts (the document
seems to assume the fonts are not embedded).

So the main question I will try to get the answer to is the following:
1. CutContour [How much work is this step?]
2. Fonts [Why is this step even needed if the fonts are embedded?]

In the CS2 incident, Adobe pulled the plug on their Activation Server.
This would have left legitimate customers with no means to re-install
the software when they wanted. This was still "buy to own" software
back in those days, and not rental software.

You would think that most customers would have registered their
purchase, and Adobe could mail some sort of details to each
customer, with a means of resolving the issue.

Instead, Adobe put up copies of the executable installers,
along with some sort of "generic" keys for each tool. People
started downloading both the license keys, and the executables,
who had not purchased the product originally. (Like this is a surprise.)

After a while, Adobe sent out a press release indicating this
wasn't some hidden intent. This wasn't "trial" software. And at that
point, the software wasn't their current version. It was an older version.

The presumption at the time was, the keys were cracked, and the
Activation Server really wasn't achieving anything. People who might
have been pirating the stuff, were probably getting hacked executables
and so on. But there isn't any additional information or background
story, as to why Adobe chose this route to solve the "legit customer"
problem with having an Activation Server turned off. The whole
episode was... pretty weird.

Sites continue, to this day, to present links to copies of that software.
Adobe might have required a user to set up an Adobe Account (just like
when you used to do a Trial with Adobe), to "gate" the download of those.
People who present copies today like TechSpot, do it so users don't have
to get an Adobe Account just to get the files.

There is a trick to installing it. Each EXE has an unpacker. The
first CD also includes an installer that starts right away.

You can unpack the software, anywhere you want. I put the unpacked
materials on C:\CS2 for example. When "1" unpacks, it creates
a folder "Adobe Creative CS2" or similar, and underneath that,
you might see one tool folder.

When you unpack 2,3,4 EXEs, you can copy the two or one or four
folders, and put them under C:\CS2\Adobe Creative CS2\ in parallel
with the tools on 1. This builds a folder with everything in it,
and the installer "stops asking for CD 2".

You might want to practice in a VM first, until you get the hang of
it.

*******

Anyway, the purpose of the post, was to show that *some* representation
does open in Adobe Illustrator, if you pass a PDF.

The steps to post-process the work, to you or me don't seem onerous,
but the person actually doing the workflow will have their own
rules and methods of conducting business.

Generally, for embedded fonts, the intention is not to "carry" embedded
versions through multiple tools in a workflow. Any time a font needs
to be processed, the tool expects the full font to be available.
This "proves" the font is licensed for one thing, or that the
owner actually has a full copy of the font. The font itself may have
licensing bits, which indicate whether copies or embeds can be done

Full Font
|
Tool 1 Full Font
| |
+---- (embed font for ---- import --- Tool 2
print purposes) |
+--- embed subset...

That could be why the operator feels the need to "load" the
font for your "job". In the case of my LibreOffice experiment,
it was two fonts, because one font seems to be erroneously
referenced in the PDF.

Anyone who does a print job, can always request a
"layout" fee. Only if you sit in front of the printer itself
and orchestrate the print operation, would you expect there
to be no layout fee. And in modern times, fees are not charged
for "hours of work". They're book rates. And operator who
finishes quickly, simply pockets the excess income (more jobs
an hour means higher income). Your car mechanic works this
way. While the operator for your job, may choose to bill you
for hours, they could also apply a book rate for the work.

People who do that sort of work, use "Font Managers". A Font
Manager may have folders with 10,000 fonts in it, and the
Font Manager loads only a subset into the system. This covers
situations where the system doesn't actually behave well if
there are 10,000 fonts in the system folder. I think I did a
test like that once, and the OS was borked well before getting
to a high number like that. So they might not "load" your
font in a conventional sense, but make it an entry in
the Font Manager which is loaded as a subset for the job.

Paul

Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 15:31:27 -0400, schrieb Neil:

As I thought, these are simple signs that would require no
modification from your print shop if you didn't insist on making them
work by trying to supply an Illustrator file. Here's a clue: you will
be charged for manual layout whenever the source material that you
deliver is in Illustrator format. If you knew what Illustrator is,
you'd know why.

I apologize if I didn't mention yet that I know absolutely nothing about
Adobe Illustrator.
So, I agree with you that I have no idea what it even means when you say
that I'm creating work for them by trying to supply them with an
Illustrator file. I really don't understand that, because I don't have the
technical experience with Adobe Illustrator to understand that.

But I did just moments ago read Paul's post, where he pointed us all to
this web page, which says, or at least I think it says, that PDF is the
native format of Adobe Illustrator.
How to edit PDF files in Adobe Illustrator
http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/using-pdf-in-illustrator-when-source-files-are-lost.aspx


As for the manual effort involved, Paul tried it himself, where he found
two steps needed to be performed manually (if I understood him correctly)
before the layout could be printed to the vinyl sheets.
1. CutContour [How much work is this step?]
2. Fonts [Why is this step even needed if the fonts are embedded?]

Would you concur with Paul's observations?

Illustrator uses a dual representation for internal usage.

So when we say it "imported" the PDF, it's like it is receiving
"half" of a .ai file. And the way Illustrator behaves suggests
it doesn't do quite the same parsing. But I can tell you it
does a better job than LibreOffice does of "importing" PDF.

It's also possible that the content of .ai has changed
over the years. The Wikipedia article may have more
details, if that's important.

In other words, we have to be a little wary about using the
word "native". Yes, there might be some PDF constructs inside
the file, but you'd need a pretty detailed book on the topic to
understand just what is inside a modern .ai file.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Illustrator_Artwork

Paul

Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 18:41:40 -0400, schrieb Paul:

In the CS2 incident, Adobe pulled the plug on their Activation Server.
This would have left legitimate customers with no means to re-install
the software when they wanted. This was still "buy to own" software
back in those days, and not rental software.

Hi Paul,
Thanks for explaining that the link to the Adobe Illustrator Windows
software and license is legitimate, since I needed to verify that before
downloading it.

I thank you for being purposefully helpful and on topic and technically
competent, which is a joy to be able to converse with you. I snipped below
the rest of that history, but it was fascinating, so thanks for that.

It will take me some time to download, install, and test, so I might not
report back immediately, where you provided a way for me, for the first
time, to check out the answers to the questions myself, with the Windows
Adobe Illustrator software!

Anyway, the purpose of the post, was to show that *some* representation
does open in Adobe Illustrator, if you pass a PDF.

Thanks for confirming the most reasonable process, which is to save from
Powerpoint a PDF (with embedded fonts, I would presume) and then suck
/that/ into Adobe Illustrator.

The steps to post-process the work, to you or me don't seem onerous,
but the person actually doing the workflow will have their own
rules and methods of conducting business.

I can't get a straight answer out of the people doing the work, but once I
do it myself, I can tell them what they need to do, so having the tool will
make a huge difference in efficiency.

Generally, for embedded fonts, the intention is not to "carry" embedded
versions through multiple tools in a workflow.

I read that with a bit of wonderment, Paul, as I would think, without
knowing much more than the little I know, that I would want to carry an
"embedded" font through the tool, which is why I selected to embed the
entire font set and not just the characters used in the document.

Any time a font needs
to be processed, the tool expects the full font to be available.

Yes. This is why I selected to embed the full font set, because, as an
example, if I never used a pound sign, but if someone wanted a pound sign,
that font would be available only if I embedded the entire font set, where
file size is not an issue.

This "proves" the font is licensed for one thing, or that the
owner actually has a full copy of the font. The font itself may have
licensing bits, which indicate whether copies or embeds can be done.

Yes, licensing "might" matter, but, as you may note, I'm using the Roadgeek
freely available road-sign fonts, which is what anyone would use if they
are making their own road signs.

Anyone who does a print job, can always request a
"layout" fee. Only if you sit in front of the printer itself
and orchestrate the print operation, would you expect there
to be no layout fee.

The real issue is more "personal" than the layout fee, since nobody is
actually objecting to the manual work but me.

I can't fathom why /any/ manual work is needed if I do my job right, which
is to feed Adobe Illustrator with a PDF that has the entire font set
embedded, where you showed they still need to do a "cut" thing, which I
don't understand yet what it is - but which may make sense when I download
and install the free Adobe Illustrator tool suite.

People who do that sort of work, use "Font Managers". A Font
Manager may have folders with 10,000 fonts in it, and the
Font Manager loads only a subset into the system.

I don't think the loading of fonts was ever the problem in this situation,
since that happens only once, and, as I mentioned, the fonts are freely
available on the net.

What I was objecting to was the claim of "manual layout" which seems
ridiculous since we already did /all/ the manual layout already!



*For the tribal record, here are some files that we're using:*
Can Adobe Illustrator read in a Microsoft PowerPoint & with fonts?
http://www.pcbanter.net/showthread.php?t=1103517

1. A screenshot of the template, where the users are instructed they can
change anything but the last line (the ordinance legalities) and the
outside border. For example, if they want to draw a picture, they can, but
nobody bothered. They all just changed the text, which is why PowerPoint is
the right tool for that job.
http://i.cubeupload.com/pK8NQE.gif

2. The powerpoint 2007 file with the entire font set embedded.
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/H5GDdHA1/file.html

3. The PDF output from PowerPoint, with the entire font set embedded.
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/abXkQMAN/file.html

4. The entire "Roadgeek Series B Regular" font set, where distribution
requires only that the copyright notice be kept intact.
http://www.fontspace.com/michael-d-adams/roadgeek-2005

5. Free licensed copy of Adobe Illustrator:
https://www.techspot.com/downloads/4948-adobe-creative-suite-free.html

6. Instructions for importing PDF into Adobe Illustrator:
How to edit PDF files in Adobe Illustrator
http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/using-pdf-in-illustrator-when-source-files-are-lost.aspx

Search archived for leverage at:
http://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-os-windows-10

On 3/30/2018 4:32 PM, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 15:31:27 -0400, schrieb Neil:

As I thought, these are simple signs that would require no
modification from your print shop if you didn't insist on making them
work by trying to supply an Illustrator file. Here's a clue: you will
be charged for manual layout whenever the source material that you
deliver is in Illustrator format. If you knew what Illustrator is,
you'd know why.

I apologize if I didn't mention yet that I know absolutely nothing about
Adobe Illustrator.
So, I agree with you that I have no idea what it even means when you say
that I'm creating work for them by trying to supply them with an
Illustrator file. I really don't understand that, because I don't have the
technical experience with Adobe Illustrator to understand that.

But I did just moments ago read Paul's post, where he pointed us all to
this web page, which says, or at least I think it says, that PDF is the
native format of Adobe Illustrator.

Well, PDF is NOT the native format of Illustrator. Both formats are
rooted in PostScript, but an AI file is not equivalent to a PDF file.

As for the manual effort involved, Paul tried it himself, where he found
two steps needed to be performed manually (if I understood him correctly)
before the layout could be printed to the vinyl sheets.
1. CutContour [How much work is this step?]
2. Fonts [Why is this step even needed if the fonts are embedded?]

Would you concur with Paul's observations?

No.

Bottom line is this: hand them an Illustrator file and pay the print
shop for doing manual layout.

--
best regards,

Neil