Router

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:02:10 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 07:55:06 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Apr 2018 17:48:12 -0700, "David E. Ross"
wrote:

How long should a router last? Mine is over two years old. Twice
today, I had to reboot it in order to access any Web pages.



The answer is "it depends." My current router is a Netgear, and it's
been working here for 13 years.


Sorry, my mistake. My router is a D-Link, not a Netgear--a DIR-655.



Another error on my part. Sorry again. I bought it on March 20, 2010,
only eight years ago.

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:11:25 -0400, Art Todesco
wrote:

On 4/16/2018 8:48 PM, David E. Ross wrote:
How long should a router last? Mine is over two years old. Twice
today, I had to reboot it in order to access any Web pages.

When you say router, do you mean DSL or Cable / router? My DSL / router
had to be rebooted several time yesterday and the day before ... not
because of the router itself, but because something upstream went down.
If I would have waited, it would have recovered itself, but a reboot
gets service back much faster.

Also, and most importantly, my
DSL/router will not route when DSL goes down. So, you can't even get
from one computer to another during a DSL hiccup or outage. What a
great design! And my guess is that others suffer similar problems.

That's not routing, that's switching. You can overcome that poor design
quite easily. Buy your own switch* and connect each of your PCs to it,
then connect a single Ethernet cable from your new switch to a LAN port
on your modem/router. The next time your DSL goes down, your LAN will
still hum away as if nothing happened.

*Just a switch, not a router, not an access point, not a modem. Pay
attention to speed capabilities, if that matters to you. Gigabit-capable
switches don't cost much more than their slower brothers, the
100-megabit units.

--

Char Jackson

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 07:49:49 -0700, "David E. Ross"
wrote:

On 4/17/2018 5:11 AM, Art Todesco wrote:
On 4/16/2018 8:48 PM, David E. Ross wrote:
How long should a router last? Mine is over two years old. Twice
today, I had to reboot it in order to access any Web pages.

When you say router, do you mean DSL or Cable / router? My DSL / router
had to be rebooted several time yesterday and the day before ... not
because of the router itself, but because something upstream went down.
If I would have waited, it would have recovered itself, but a reboot
gets service back much faster. Also, and most importantly, my
DSL/router will not route when DSL goes down. So, you can't even get
from one computer to another during a DSL hiccup or outage. What a
great design! And my guess is that others suffer similar problems.


All that seems to describe a modem, not a router. Once you get a
connection to the Internet via a modem, a LAN's router should not care
how that connection was obtained.

See my http://www.rossde.com/computer/LAN.html.

"Our PCs form a LAN by communicating through a router."

I know what you mean by that, but it's not technically correct. Within
your LAN, the PCs communicate through a switch. The switch is probably
included in the device commonly referred to as a router, but intraLAN
communications don't touch the router section of the router. ;-)


--

Char Jackson

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 10:47:07 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 07:49:49 -0700, "David E. Ross"
wrote:


"Our PCs form a LAN by communicating through a router."

I know what you mean by that, but it's not technically correct. Within
your LAN, the PCs communicate through a switch. The switch is probably
included in the device commonly referred to as a router, but intraLAN
communications don't touch the router section of the router. ;-)



Thanks for that clarification, which I also didn't know.

I've long known that there are three different kinds of devices:
switches, hubs, and routers, but if it's ever been clear to me what
the differences are, I had forgotten.

And I don't think I ever knew that a switch was part of a router.

Can you point me to a web site that clearly explains the differences
between these devices?

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 09:10:21 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 10:47:07 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 07:49:49 -0700, "David E. Ross"
wrote:


"Our PCs form a LAN by communicating through a router."

I know what you mean by that, but it's not technically correct. Within
your LAN, the PCs communicate through a switch. The switch is probably
included in the device commonly referred to as a router, but intraLAN
communications don't touch the router section of the router. ;-)



Thanks for that clarification, which I also didn't know.

I've long known that there are three different kinds of devices:
switches, hubs, and routers, but if it's ever been clear to me what
the differences are, I had forgotten.

Don't forget bridges.

And I don't think I ever knew that a switch was part of a router.

The thing we call a router is actually a 2-port router connected to a
5-port switch via a bridge. The WAN interface of the router is brought
out and presented as an Ethernet jack, while the LAN side of the router
is internally connected to one side of the bridge. The other side of the
bridge is internally connected to one of the switch ports, and the rest
of the switch ports are brought out as LAN Ethernet jacks. If there's a
WiFi radio, it's also connected on the LAN side of the bridge.

In the old days, you could buy a Linksys BEFSR11, which was *only* the
2-port router section, so externally all you had were a WAN port, a LAN
port, and a power port. You were probably expected to supply your own
switch, which is what I did.

Pretty early on, someone decided it would be good to add a switch to the
router, connected to the LAN side of the router by a bridge, and they
didn't stop there. Now we have router packages with WiFi radio(s), print
servers, one or more USB ports, file servers, DHCP server, and of course
why not throw in a cable modem, too. It's vegetable stew.

Can you point me to a web site that clearly explains the differences
between these devices?

Besides Wikipedia, www.practicallynetworked.com has been solid over the
years. This link might be just what you want to get started:
http://www.practicallynetworked.com/...idge_types.htm


--

Char Jackson

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 11:32:40 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

Besides Wikipedia, www.practicallynetworked.com has been solid over the
years. This link might be just what you want to get started:
http://www.practicallynetworked.com/...idge_types.htm

Now that I'm actually reading that last link, it sounds like it was
written ~20+ years ago. It could stand to be updated.

--

Char Jackson

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 01:31:22 -0400, Paul
wrote:

Sjouke Burry wrote:
On 17-4-2018 2:48, David E. Ross wrote:
How long should a router last? Mine is over two years old. Twice
today, I had to reboot it in order to access any Web pages.

My first router lasted 12 years. A Speed Touch it was called.

Some examples here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpeedTouch

In the picture of the opened up one, you can see some electrolytic
caps. You can see five big ones and two small ones. Those are the
kinds of things you inspect for leaking or orange stains on top.

That particular one is weird, in that the wall adapter creates
a voltage that is higher than the thing needs, then it goes to
all the trouble of having those internal power circuits on the
left. In effect, it's doubly regulated.

And if it lasted 12 years - that is a pretty good justification for
the "over" engineering......

Paul

--
Stephen

On Mon, 16 Apr 2018 17:48:12 -0700, "David E. Ross"
wrote:

How long should a router last? Mine is over two years old. Twice
today, I had to reboot it in order to access any Web pages.

They shouldnt break that easily as the biggest market is the ISPs and
the last thing they want is boxes that need to be swapped out and
replacements paid for.

Most of my upgrades jave been down to service changes.

My router comes with the cable service, so only a problem if you start
to get issues.

The cable co has updated the service from 128 Kbps originally to 150
Mbps now over ~ 20 years in 4 or 5 steps

started with Ethernet off the settop box and a separate router, then a
separate modem (went thru 3 or 4 SOHO routers on the service) and
eventually a combined badged Netgear with cable modem + router.
- 1 router upgrade was for a flaked route & anothers to keep up with
the service speed increases

Biggest reason for swapout has been wireless issues
- standards changes
- wireless builds that didnt do handoff between boxes well.

I have given up on WiFi off the routers as I need other access points
because of the cable entry point and now use a separate access point.

--
Stephen

On Mon, 16 Apr 2018 17:48:12 -0700, David E. Ross wrote:

How long should a router last? Mine is over two years old. Twice
today, I had to reboot it in order to access any Web pages.

It depends. Is your router running Windows 7?

--
s|b

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 11:32:40 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 09:10:21 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 10:47:07 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 07:49:49 -0700, "David E. Ross"
wrote:


"Our PCs form a LAN by communicating through a router."

I know what you mean by that, but it's not technically correct. Within
your LAN, the PCs communicate through a switch. The switch is probably
included in the device commonly referred to as a router, but intraLAN
communications don't touch the router section of the router. ;-)



Thanks for that clarification, which I also didn't know.

I've long known that there are three different kinds of devices:
switches, hubs, and routers, but if it's ever been clear to me what
the differences are, I had forgotten.

Don't forget bridges.


Yep. Although I knew that name too, I had forgotten to mention it.


And I don't think I ever knew that a switch was part of a router.

The thing we call a router is actually a 2-port router connected to a
5-port switch via a bridge. The WAN interface of the router is brought
out and presented as an Ethernet jack, while the LAN side of the router
is internally connected to one side of the bridge. The other side of the
bridge is internally connected to one of the switch ports, and the rest
of the switch ports are brought out as LAN Ethernet jacks. If there's a
WiFi radio, it's also connected on the LAN side of the bridge.

In the old days, you could buy a Linksys BEFSR11, which was *only* the
2-port router section, so externally all you had were a WAN port, a LAN
port, and a power port. You were probably expected to supply your own
switch, which is what I did.

Pretty early on, someone decided it would be good to add a switch to the
router, connected to the LAN side of the router by a bridge, and they
didn't stop there. Now we have router packages with WiFi radio(s), print
servers, one or more USB ports, file servers, DHCP server, and of course
why not throw in a cable modem, too. It's vegetable stew.

Can you point me to a web site that clearly explains the differences
between these devices?

Besides Wikipedia, www.practicallynetworked.com has been solid over the
years. This link might be just what you want to get started:
http://www.practicallynetworked.com/...idge_types.htm


Thanks very much. No time now, but I'll read it when I get a chance.

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 21:36:23 +0200, "s|b" wrote:

On Mon, 16 Apr 2018 17:48:12 -0700, David E. Ross wrote:

How long should a router last? Mine is over two years old. Twice
today, I had to reboot it in order to access any Web pages.

It depends. Is your router running Windows 7?




??? Is this some kind of joke I don't understand?

In message , Ken Blake
writes:
[]
Personally I use separate devices: a router and a modem. Whether
router/modem, printer/scanner, or anything else, I always prefer to
avoid combination devices, since if one part fails, you need to
replace both.

On the whole I agree with you, but we accept some combinations these
days: video monitors with inbuilt tuner/decoder/audio-amp (we call that
a TV set), microwave oven with integrated timer ... in computing,
motherboard with IDE/SATA controller, sound, in many cases graphics. The
cost saving - not to mention reduction in number of boxes - sometimes
outweighs the inconvenience of only part failing. Here in UK at least,
what most people refer to as a "router" is a combination ADSL MoDem,
ethernet hub/switch/router/whatever, and wifi interface (these days the
wifi part is tending to be two band).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"The right to be heard does not include the right to be taken seriously."
- Hubert H. Humphrey

On 04/17/2018 09:59 AM, Ken Blake wrote:

[snip]

Personally I use separate devices: a router and a modem. Whether
router/modem, printer/scanner, or anything else, I always prefer to
avoid combination devices, since if one part fails, you need to
replace both.
I would use separate devices, especially a (cable/DSL) modem and router.
The modem is essentially a part of the ISPs network and the router is a
part of MY network, and I should be in control of what happens with it.
Also, I don't want the ISP messing with my custom settings.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Experience is not what happens to you; its what you do with what
happens to you." - NW

On 04/17/2018 01:45 PM, Stephen wrote:

[snip]

And if it lasted 12 years - that is a pretty good justification for
the "over" engineering......

Paul

The router I used to have (Linksys WRT54G) might have lasted 12 years. I
had to get a new one because of a higher internet speed (50M, when that
old router was limited to about 15M).

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Experience is not what happens to you; its what you do with what
happens to you." - NW

On 04/17/2018 01:54 PM, Stephen wrote:

[snip]

I have given up on WiFi off the routers as I need other access points
because of the cable entry point and now use a separate access point.

Is this another router used as just an access point (no WAN connection)?
That's what I would do if I needed another AP (with no cable modem).

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Experience is not what happens to you; its what you do with what
happens to you." - NW