Microsoft Rumors Say Big Changes Coming in Windows 8.2

R. H. Breener wrote:

My family is moving on to MACS.

Look into Linux instead, keep the same equipment, and save yourselves
thousands of $/£/€/¥ ...

--
-bts
-This space for rent, but the price is high

On Sun, 8 Dec 2013 16:28:39 -0600, "R. H. Breener"
wrote:


"Johnny" wrote in message
...

I have moved on to Linux Mint 16, and won't be using Windows again. It
does everything I need it to do, and it's fun to use.

My family is moving on to MACS. We're among the last ones hanging on to
Windows. After all these recent problems with Vista and W7, we may join them
when these computers w/Windows crash and burn for the last time. I played
with a friend's W8 for awhile and wasn't impressed.

I recently used a friend's Mac Book Pro for a couple of hours, and I played
with his wife's Iphone for a bit. I say no thanks to both. I've never been
an Apple fan, and every time I touch an Apple product I'm reminded why.

Jim wrote:


You think Macs are trouble free? My buddy phoned me and said his Mac
has S.P.O.D (Spinning pizza of death). I Googled it and it's pretty
hard to fix. I have no idea how to fix it and I used Macs for about 10
years. I wouldn't choose a mac for many reasons.

MacOSX has changed over the years. Back when I was using
it, it was a dual-personality OS. You had the GUI, for
those who didn't want to fiddle with stuff. You also had
Terminal, which is the equivalent of the MSDOS Command
Prompt in Windows.

In Terminal, you'd run

top

to see the running processes, and see if a process is using
100% of the CPU.

The pizza animation, comes from a process which is not
responding. And "top" might verify that something
is stuck or busy. ("top" is open source software,
available for many platforms. It looks similar in
all of them.)

Using Terminal, MacOSX lends itself to a lot of the same
ideas as work in Linux or Unix. MacOSX is based on the
Mach kernel, and that is where it gets the preemptive
multitasking capability.

I could issue "kill -9 pid" to kill something that
is stuck in a loop, but without knowing what it is at
the moment, it's pretty hard to say what is safe to do.
The "pid" value is the numeric process ID, which each
process is assigned when it starts up. You use the pid
value for some commands, as a means of uniquely identifying
a thing you're trying to fix or get rid of.

I had a hell of a lot of varied software running on
that box, and it's almost as flexible as my current
PC. I had Connectix Virtual PC and ran Win2K on there.
Before that, I think I had some version of SoftWindows.
I had both MacOSX and MacOS 9 running concurrently. (Some
of my software ran in the MacOS 9 machine, the rest
ran native in the host OS.) I could import projects
via Fink. A real mixed bag of software was available.

I doubt I could have nearly as much fun with a new Mac.
I wouldn't have the budget for it.

Paul

On 12/9/2013 4:14 PM, Wolf Kirchmeir wrote:
As for Ubuntu, they went to a new GUI called "Unity" which is too much a
like a Mac's for my taste.
I'm not alone. In fact, that's why Mint was developed.

Mint came out long before Unity did.

--
Alias

Per Char Jackson:
I recently used a friend's Mac Book Pro for a couple of hours, and I played
with his wife's Iphone for a bit. I say no thanks to both. I've never been
an Apple fan, and every time I touch an Apple product I'm reminded why.

A loooong time ago, I used to be a Mac chauvinist - big time.... even
developed a sales/inventory application to run on my Mac for my backyard
windsurfing business.

Then I kind of drifted away from the Mac world as I was making my living
developing Microsoft Office Suite applications.

A bunch of years later, my granddaughter graduated from design school
and she just *had* to have a Mac... so I went out an bought the biggest,
baddest Mac I could find.

I got to play with it for a few weeks before graduation and, guess what?
Yeah, I found that I much preferred Windows XP.

Part of it was probably familiarity, but part of it was little things
like there being several ways to resize a window under XP but only one
way under whatever Mac OS I was running.

And both worlds had moved on to where, although just about everything is
plug-and-play, the Mac now also required installer/setup programs to
install applications - as opposed to just copying files in the old days.

When people ask me which system they should get, I ask them which system
is being used by the most people that they know well enough to ask for
help from.
--
Pete Cresswell

Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

R. H. Breener wrote:

My family is moving on to MACS.

Look into Linux instead, keep the same equipment, and save yourselves
thousands of $/£/¤/¥ ...


Unfortunately, Linux doesn't always meet everyone's requirements. Had a
friend who switched to a Mac after a couple years of frustration with
Vista . He HAD to run Photoshop. We tried Linux and WINE and Crossover,
but Photoshop wouldn't work. Mac was his only choice.

Stef

On 2013-12-09, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Char Jackson:
I recently used a friend's Mac Book Pro for a couple of hours, and I played
with his wife's Iphone for a bit. I say no thanks to both. I've never been
an Apple fan, and every time I touch an Apple product I'm reminded why.

A loooong time ago, I used to be a Mac chauvinist - big time.... even
developed a sales/inventory application to run on my Mac for my backyard
windsurfing business.

Then I kind of drifted away from the Mac world as I was making my living
developing Microsoft Office Suite applications.

A bunch of years later, my granddaughter graduated from design school
and she just *had* to have a Mac... so I went out an bought the biggest,
baddest Mac I could find.

I got to play with it for a few weeks before graduation and, guess what?
Yeah, I found that I much preferred Windows XP.

Part of it was probably familiarity, but part of it was little things
like there being several ways to resize a window under XP but only one
way under whatever Mac OS I was running.

And both worlds had moved on to where, although just about everything is
plug-and-play, the Mac now also required installer/setup programs to
install applications - as opposed to just copying files in the old days.

When people ask me which system they should get, I ask them which system
is being used by the most people that they know well enough to ask for
help from.

The biggest problem with the Mac is the inability to change the system
font size; I've read complaints that was dated back to 1998 & still
apple refuses to allow it. Using a hi-resolution monitor like a 27"
2560x1440 monitor emphaizes it without downgrading the resolution
to "retina" resolutions.

Did read some comments that the system is around 7 points.

On my mid-20-11 MacMini, I've installed "fink" which is a derivative
of debian to "play" with; some have installed macports to do the
same which is more like bsd. Anyway, I've compiled slrn for use as
a news reader & mc as a file manager.

It's also very irritating that itunes is considered part of the os &
I was unable to remove it or disable it.

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 10:36:34 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

When people ask me which system they should get, I ask them which system
is being used by the most people that they know well enough to ask for
help from.

I think that's good advice, partly because it's the same advice I give.

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 10:36:34 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Char Jackson:
I recently used a friend's Mac Book Pro for a couple of hours, and I played
with his wife's Iphone for a bit. I say no thanks to both. I've never been
an Apple fan, and every time I touch an Apple product I'm reminded why.

A loooong time ago, I used to be a Mac chauvinist - big time.... even
developed a sales/inventory application to run on my Mac for my backyard
windsurfing business.

Then I kind of drifted away from the Mac world as I was making my living
developing Microsoft Office Suite applications.

A bunch of years later, my granddaughter graduated from design school
and she just *had* to have a Mac... so I went out an bought the biggest,
baddest Mac I could find.

I got to play with it for a few weeks before graduation and, guess what?
Yeah, I found that I much preferred Windows XP.

Part of it was probably familiarity, but part of it was little things
like there being several ways to resize a window under XP but only one
way under whatever Mac OS I was running.

And both worlds had moved on to where, although just about everything is
plug-and-play, the Mac now also required installer/setup programs to
install applications - as opposed to just copying files in the old days.

When people ask me which system they should get, I ask them which system
is being used by the most people that they know well enough to ask for
help from.


Leaving aside my personal preferences (which are much like yours and
Char's) what I tell those who ask me is that almost everyone should
get a Windows machine. That's for the following reasons:

1. A Windows machine is much less expensive than a Macintosh.

2. Buying components to upgrade or repair a Windows machine is much
less expensive than a Macintosh.

3. There is a much greater range of available software for Windows.
And it's often better than what's available for the Macintosh.

4. Being compatible with most of the hardware and software that the
world runs is a big advantage.

5. There is a much wider range of assistance, both from professionals
and friends, on Windows machines than on a Macintosh. (similar to your
point)

On 12/9/2013 1:34 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 10:36:34 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Char Jackson:
I recently used a friend's Mac Book Pro for a couple of hours, and I played
with his wife's Iphone for a bit. I say no thanks to both. I've never been
an Apple fan, and every time I touch an Apple product I'm reminded why.

A loooong time ago, I used to be a Mac chauvinist - big time.... even
developed a sales/inventory application to run on my Mac for my backyard
windsurfing business.

Then I kind of drifted away from the Mac world as I was making my living
developing Microsoft Office Suite applications.

A bunch of years later, my granddaughter graduated from design school
and she just *had* to have a Mac... so I went out an bought the biggest,
baddest Mac I could find.

I got to play with it for a few weeks before graduation and, guess what?
Yeah, I found that I much preferred Windows XP.

Part of it was probably familiarity, but part of it was little things
like there being several ways to resize a window under XP but only one
way under whatever Mac OS I was running.

And both worlds had moved on to where, although just about everything is
plug-and-play, the Mac now also required installer/setup programs to
install applications - as opposed to just copying files in the old days.

When people ask me which system they should get, I ask them which system
is being used by the most people that they know well enough to ask for
help from.


Leaving aside my personal preferences (which are much like yours and
Char's) what I tell those who ask me is that almost everyone should
get a Windows machine. That's for the following reasons:

1. A Windows machine is much less expensive than a Macintosh.

2. Buying components to upgrade or repair a Windows machine is much
less expensive than a Macintosh.

3. There is a much greater range of available software for Windows.
And it's often better than what's available for the Macintosh.

4. Being compatible with most of the hardware and software that the
world runs is a big advantage.

5. There is a much wider range of assistance, both from professionals
and friends, on Windows machines than on a Macintosh. (similar to your
point)



Back in the dark ages of dialup and the Apple]['s, I was a MAUG member,
and C'serve even gave me a "free" account for supporting first Apple,
and then P/C's running MSDos.

Apple was less than really user friendly. That became even worse when
they came out with the Mac's. The Mac's "closed" ops system convinced me
that I wanted nothing to do with it. Eventually, with industry using
386 P/C's I had to go to the IBM compatible route.

(Old Worn Out MVP)

Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 10:36:34 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Char Jackson:
I recently used a friend's Mac Book Pro for a couple of hours, and I played
with his wife's Iphone for a bit. I say no thanks to both. I've never been
an Apple fan, and every time I touch an Apple product I'm reminded why.
A loooong time ago, I used to be a Mac chauvinist - big time.... even
developed a sales/inventory application to run on my Mac for my backyard
windsurfing business.

Then I kind of drifted away from the Mac world as I was making my living
developing Microsoft Office Suite applications.

A bunch of years later, my granddaughter graduated from design school
and she just *had* to have a Mac... so I went out an bought the biggest,
baddest Mac I could find.

I got to play with it for a few weeks before graduation and, guess what?
Yeah, I found that I much preferred Windows XP.

Part of it was probably familiarity, but part of it was little things
like there being several ways to resize a window under XP but only one
way under whatever Mac OS I was running.

And both worlds had moved on to where, although just about everything is
plug-and-play, the Mac now also required installer/setup programs to
install applications - as opposed to just copying files in the old days.

When people ask me which system they should get, I ask them which system
is being used by the most people that they know well enough to ask for
help from.


Leaving aside my personal preferences (which are much like yours and
Char's) what I tell those who ask me is that almost everyone should
get a Windows machine. That's for the following reasons:

1. A Windows machine is much less expensive than a Macintosh.

2. Buying components to upgrade or repair a Windows machine is much
less expensive than a Macintosh.

3. There is a much greater range of available software for Windows.
And it's often better than what's available for the Macintosh.

4. Being compatible with most of the hardware and software that the
world runs is a big advantage.

5. There is a much wider range of assistance, both from professionals
and friends, on Windows machines than on a Macintosh. (similar to your
point)


Rather than refute this point by point,
I'll make the observation that the extent of these
points, has changed with time. A person making the
points, is advised to do the analysis again, to see
if the points are still true.

The situation was rather extreme at one time. When I
wanted a decent video card for my Quadra (50MHz), it cost
a thousand dollars. When I wanted an upgrade for
my G4 (1.2GHz), the video card was only slightly more expensive
than the PC equivalent. You could even mod a PC video card
and flash upgrade it, if the EEPROM was big enough. The Mac
card I did buy, was eventually reversed for usage in a PC,
and sat in my P4 machine and provided video services, for
years.

On some of the machines (my G4 included, which is quite
old now), you could stick bog standard PCI cards in them.
The big endian/little endian thing wasn't an issue.
The only issue was the Mac "sleep" function, which was
harder to get right than on Windows. You had to select
the right product, to solve that. It meant
visiting a Mac web forum and asking for the latest
recommendation.

All the cards that have run in my G4, have Windows drivers.

The third bullet wasn't true at one time, which is
why certain populations of users were hooked on Macs.
As to whether Mac professionals are still happy with
their software choices now, I haven't a clue.

That's why all of the above must be evaluated frequently,
to be validated. Like, all it would take, is Adobe changing
course, to radically affect how useful a Mac might be.

The price spread on Macs, may also vary depending on
whether you're looking at low end Macs or high end Macs.
A high end Mac is likely to come closer to the Windows
price. There could be a larger spread on the low end
Macs (percentage wise). (The dual Xeon, with the processor
you couldn't buy at retail, was relatively close to a
Windows build.)

The latest Mac that diverges from common packaging
practice, that's probably a mistake. It appears
to be an attempt to prevent upgrading, not make it
easy. I've not read any comments or reviews on this
thing. Apparently it ships Dec 2013, so we may see
some reviews soon.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/22/4...pro-2013-price

"The bigger question is whether pros will
embrace the new, less-upgradable design."

This is not really a topic that deserves a
"shoot from the hip" response. The picture
changes with time, and not even in a consistent
direction. I view that cylindrical thing as a mistake.
A strategic mistake. About as bad as that Cube they made.

Paul

On 12/9/13 8:36 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Char Jackson:
I recently used a friend's Mac Book Pro for a couple of hours, and I played
with his wife's Iphone for a bit. I say no thanks to both. I've never been
an Apple fan, and every time I touch an Apple product I'm reminded why.

A loooong time ago, I used to be a Mac chauvinist - big time.... even
developed a sales/inventory application to run on my Mac for my backyard
windsurfing business.

Then I kind of drifted away from the Mac world as I was making my living
developing Microsoft Office Suite applications.

A bunch of years later, my granddaughter graduated from design school
and she just *had* to have a Mac... so I went out an bought the biggest,
baddest Mac I could find.

I got to play with it for a few weeks before graduation and, guess what?
Yeah, I found that I much preferred Windows XP.

Just curious, was XP current when you did this? Visually, I like the XP
UI over any later windows, as well as this Mac. But now, for various
reasons, wouldn't go back to Windows as my primary computer, and I have
XP. Vista, 7, & 8 here.

No one should read that as a fanboi comment, as there are things about
the Mac I wish were different, notably the Finder. (Finder=Windows
Explorer) And I like Libraries, if used differently than as set up by MS.

Part of it was probably familiarity, but part of it was little things
like there being several ways to resize a window under XP but only one
way under whatever Mac OS I was running.

Just FYI, but that's no longer the case. But when you get down to the
nitty gritty, having 8 handles instead of 1 to resize a window is just
eye candy. It does nothing in the way of increasing the capabilities,
features, functions, ET. AL. to the OS, but does add more lines of code.

And both worlds had moved on to where, although just about everything is
plug-and-play, the Mac now also required installer/setup programs to
install applications - as opposed to just copying files in the old days.

To which I have to ask... So? G You can't just copy files in
Windows either. A plus, IMO, for OS X is there's no registry to deal
with, and no uninstall routines are needed. Just drag the program from
the Applications folder(s) (equivalent to Programs and Programs X86
folders) to the trash and you're done.

From a technical view, this won't remove some personal settings for the
software, but that just ends up being garbage on the hard drive, it
can't affect the system's operation as left over registry entries
sometimes can.

Another plus for OS X, IMO, is the lack of malware. Not that you can't
infect a Mac, but there just aren't that many out there. I do know
there's a piece of malware out there that first checks which type of OS
is installed (Windows, OS X, or Linux) and installs appropriate code.

I do run AV software, but not because I'm worried about the Mac. I do
it to catch Windows malware. Early on, I would get one here and there,
but it's been a long time since any has been found on something
delivered to my computer.

When people ask me which system they should get, I ask them which system
is being used by the most people that they know well enough to ask for
help from.

So, what do you do when you finally get tired of being asked how to fix
something because the user doesn't understand? And no matter how many
times you try to explain it, it just doesn't "click"?

I have a friend who had to use Windows at work before she retired.
Never understood how things worked, she was just one that could fool
around get something done and mess her own system up pretty good. When
her 3 month old Win laptop was stolen I talked her into buying a Mac.
Her workplace used to use them and she loved it. And she's a happy
camper again.

The point is, arguing over which OS is better is... well... pointless.
LOL No OS will ever be perfect, usable, or whatever for everyone.
Just look at all the complaining about Win8's interface. And the number
of people here who change it to look like XP or Win7, or ????????

If someone asks me, I tell them to go to a store, spend some time with
the system, pick the one that makes sense to you. Not to me, the
salesperson, or anyone else.

If you want categorize users, I think those with the more creative
minds, such as musicians, artists, teachers, etc. will generally like
the Mac better. Those that are logical thinkers, mathematicians,
scientists, etc. will generally like Windows better.

And look at the many users in this group that twiddle and fiddle with
the UI to make 8 look and fell like 7 or XP. That is not something the
average user is going to do.

Part of any "average" user's problem with computers is an almost
complete lack of basic computer knowledge. I'm talking the hardware and
OS knowledge, not office suites, photo editing programs, etc. AKA
similar to knowing what's under the hood of the car, but not knowing how
to overhaul that engine. And that makes it tougher on them to make an
educated decision about which OS fits them better.

I have another friend who falls into this category, and he actually
stored data in the System Recovery partition! Gateway didn't bother to
hide the partition from the user.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8

On 12/9/13 11:34 AM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 10:36:34 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Char Jackson:
I recently used a friend's Mac Book Pro for a couple of hours, and I played
with his wife's Iphone for a bit. I say no thanks to both. I've never been
an Apple fan, and every time I touch an Apple product I'm reminded why.

A loooong time ago, I used to be a Mac chauvinist - big time.... even
developed a sales/inventory application to run on my Mac for my backyard
windsurfing business.

Then I kind of drifted away from the Mac world as I was making my living
developing Microsoft Office Suite applications.

A bunch of years later, my granddaughter graduated from design school
and she just *had* to have a Mac... so I went out an bought the biggest,
baddest Mac I could find.

I got to play with it for a few weeks before graduation and, guess what?
Yeah, I found that I much preferred Windows XP.

Part of it was probably familiarity, but part of it was little things
like there being several ways to resize a window under XP but only one
way under whatever Mac OS I was running.

And both worlds had moved on to where, although just about everything is
plug-and-play, the Mac now also required installer/setup programs to
install applications - as opposed to just copying files in the old days.

When people ask me which system they should get, I ask them which system
is being used by the most people that they know well enough to ask for
help from.



Hi, Ken,

I think Paul is pretty much on the mark in
with his observations.

Leaving aside my personal preferences (which are much like yours and
Char's) what I tell those who ask me is that almost everyone should
get a Windows machine. That's for the following reasons:

1. A Windows machine is much less expensive than a Macintosh.

Well, maybe. You have to be sure you're actually comparing apples to
apples. (Sorry for the bad pun! LOL)

It's not just the price based on specifications, I.E. amount of RAM,
speed of the CPU, etc., but the specification of the individual
components. How long will that HD last before it fails? Or the DVD
burner? And so on.

I used to see the price fight when someone would say I can buy computer
from XXXXXXXX for a third of what the Apple equivalent cost. But when
someone did the research for equivalent individual components, that
price difference dwindled fast.

And don't forget the cost of OS upgrades. When I bought this Mac, it
came with Leopard, and Windows was Vista. If I had purchased every OS
upgrade from Apple, the total cost to get me to the current Mavericks
would have been $90. What would the total cost be to go from Vista to 7
to 8, discounting that special introductory upgrade price when 8 was
released. AFAIK, speculation is Mac OS upgrades will be $0 from now on.

2. Buying components to upgrade or repair a Windows machine is much
less expensive than a Macintosh.

The average user of either system is not likely to upgrade a component,
IMO. And today, how many computers, percentage wise of a give model,
have hardware failures?

3. There is a much greater range of available software for Windows.
And it's often better than what's available for the Macintosh.

Something of a bogus argument, IMO. Just how many average users
actually need the plethora of features of MS Word, Photoshop, AutoCAD,
or other expensive packages. For the average user, there's plenty of
software out there that's free that will work for most users.

And if MS and others would support open source file formats more
extensively, it would be the user that would benefit from having an even
wider selection of software to choose from. With many of those programs
being cross-platform.

4. Being compatible with most of the hardware and software that the
world runs is a big advantage.

As Paul mentioned, most of the hardware is the same these days. And as
I said, all you need is a common file format, then the actual program
won't matter to the users. He/she can use the one they like, and not be
forced to use a particular product. I figured that out in my Atari 8
bit days, you don't need the same program, you just need to be able to
read the same file format. IIRC, the French government has now mandated
the use of open source file formats internally.

5. There is a much wider range of assistance, both from professionals
and friends, on Windows machines than on a Macintosh. (similar to your
point)

I suspect an Apple fanboi would argue that since Macs are easier to use,
less help is needed. But that's a smokescreen, and means nothing.
There's going to be more assistance for Windows simply due to the
numbers of units out there.

What you need to know is the # of questions asked per computer. If
there's 100 Windows and 100 Macs, and there's 50 questions for each
Windows unit, and 25 questions for each Mac unit, you can make the
argument less user assistance is needed for Mac. But I doubt there's
any way to get any kind of accurate data here.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8

Ken Springer wrote:


I have another friend who falls into this category, and he actually
stored data in the System Recovery partition! Gateway didn't bother to
hide the partition from the user.

I bet he was complaining he was out of storage space or something.

If he'd assigned it a drive letter, then he'd really be in trouble.
(As that can switch on System Restore, and waste more space on there.)

Paul

On 12/9/13 9:51 AM, generic name wrote:
On 2013-12-09, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Char Jackson:
I recently used a friend's Mac Book Pro for a couple of hours, and I played
with his wife's Iphone for a bit. I say no thanks to both. I've never been
an Apple fan, and every time I touch an Apple product I'm reminded why.

A loooong time ago, I used to be a Mac chauvinist - big time.... even
developed a sales/inventory application to run on my Mac for my backyard
windsurfing business.

Then I kind of drifted away from the Mac world as I was making my living
developing Microsoft Office Suite applications.

A bunch of years later, my granddaughter graduated from design school
and she just *had* to have a Mac... so I went out an bought the biggest,
baddest Mac I could find.

I got to play with it for a few weeks before graduation and, guess what?
Yeah, I found that I much preferred Windows XP.

Part of it was probably familiarity, but part of it was little things
like there being several ways to resize a window under XP but only one
way under whatever Mac OS I was running.

And both worlds had moved on to where, although just about everything is
plug-and-play, the Mac now also required installer/setup programs to
install applications - as opposed to just copying files in the old days.

When people ask me which system they should get, I ask them which system
is being used by the most people that they know well enough to ask for
help from.

The biggest problem with the Mac is the inability to change the system
font size; I've read complaints that was dated back to 1998 & still
apple refuses to allow it. Using a hi-resolution monitor like a 27"
2560x1440 monitor emphaizes it without downgrading the resolution
to "retina" resolutions.

The flip side of this is, no problems with the screen display. How many
times have you chosen a font, font size, effect, and found it didn't
work? :-)

Did read some comments that the system is around 7 points.

On my mid-20-11 MacMini, I've installed "fink" which is a derivative
of debian to "play" with; some have installed macports to do the
same which is more like bsd. Anyway, I've compiled slrn for use as
a news reader & mc as a file manager.

It's also very irritating that itunes is considered part of the os &
I was unable to remove it or disable it.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8