Microsoft Rumors Say Big Changes Coming in Windows 8.2

Per Ken Springer:
In this case, you're using a third party piece of software. Apple's
OSes do it "in house", is my understanding. I'm not an iOS owner, not
likely to be, so can't test anything. No third party software involved.

But, if I'm guessing correctly, you have to first learn how to use
Google's To-Do list, then get it to work with your devices. With Apple,
turn it on, make sure the appropriate app is running, and done. The
only thing you set up is an Apple account.

Correct on all accounts - and it's a nice illustration of the difference
between the two systems' paradigms:
Plug-and-Play-At-The-Expense-Of-Control vs
More-Control-But-Expertise-Needed.

Both totally valid - and each well-suited to different users.
--
Pete Cresswell

On 12/10/2013 7:55 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 12/10/13 11:15 AM, Alias wrote:
On 12/10/2013 6:33 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 12/9/13 5:07 PM, Jim wrote:
I wonder why people have a problem using Google for Windows 8 info,
but looking for info on how to set up the Mac or Linux is perfectly
fine.

Comments like this, and I mean nothing personal, just dismay/disappoint
me any more. Underneath these comments is the assumption that every
user knows how to use a computer, do searches, properly store their
data, anything and everything.

They don't, unfortunately. And to assume they do reflects badly on
those making these comments. AFAIK, humans have not evolved genetically
to have this knowledge built into the DNA of the species.

But you assume they know how to find a free news server, set it up and
post on Usenet?

Why on earth would I assume that??? Did you read and understand the
first sentence of my next paragraph? I'm not assuming you did.


Rather than assume someone knows something, I ask. "Do you know how to
do X?" "Do you know what X does?" Etc. If the answer is "No", then I
take the time to reply to the "No" response before moving back to their
original question.






Oh, thought you were talking about helping on Usenet.

--
Alias

On 12/10/13 11:59 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Ken Springer:
In this case, you're using a third party piece of software. Apple's
OSes do it "in house", is my understanding. I'm not an iOS owner, not
likely to be, so can't test anything. No third party software involved.

But, if I'm guessing correctly, you have to first learn how to use
Google's To-Do list, then get it to work with your devices. With Apple,
turn it on, make sure the appropriate app is running, and done. The
only thing you set up is an Apple account.

Correct on all accounts - and it's a nice illustration of the difference
between the two systems' paradigms:
Plug-and-Play-At-The-Expense-Of-Control vs
More-Control-But-Expertise-Needed.

Both totally valid - and each well-suited to different users.

Which rather succinctly points out the differences between OS X and
Windows, and why no single OS will ever fit everyone.

I know a lot of people who have Windows, and get frustrated that it just
doesn't work. I get frustrated with OS X because I have limited
control. But I still like the "it just works" over the lack of control
anymore. I've got Windows to futz with for fun. LOL


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8

On 12/10/13 12:12 PM, Alias wrote:
On 12/10/2013 7:55 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 12/10/13 11:15 AM, Alias wrote:
On 12/10/2013 6:33 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 12/9/13 5:07 PM, Jim wrote:
I wonder why people have a problem using Google for Windows 8 info,
but looking for info on how to set up the Mac or Linux is perfectly
fine.

Comments like this, and I mean nothing personal, just dismay/disappoint
me any more. Underneath these comments is the assumption that every
user knows how to use a computer, do searches, properly store their
data, anything and everything.

They don't, unfortunately. And to assume they do reflects badly on
those making these comments. AFAIK, humans have not evolved genetically
to have this knowledge built into the DNA of the species.

But you assume they know how to find a free news server, set it up and
post on Usenet?

Why on earth would I assume that??? Did you read and understand the
first sentence of my next paragraph? I'm not assuming you did.


Rather than assume someone knows something, I ask. "Do you know how to
do X?" "Do you know what X does?" Etc. If the answer is "No", then I
take the time to reply to the "No" response before moving back to their
original question.






Oh, thought you were talking about helping on Usenet.

No, this ultimately is a response to PeteCresswell's post,
,
about which system to recommend to someone.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8

Jim wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:33:37 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

On 12/9/13 5:07 PM, Jim wrote:
I wonder why people have a problem using Google for Windows 8 info,
but looking for info on how to set up the Mac or Linux is perfectly
fine.
Comments like this, and I mean nothing personal, just dismay/disappoint
me any more. Underneath these comments is the assumption that every
user knows how to use a computer, do searches, properly store their
data, anything and everything.

They don't, unfortunately. And to assume they do reflects badly on
those making these comments. AFAIK, humans have not evolved genetically
to have this knowledge built into the DNA of the species.

Rather than assume someone knows something, I ask. "Do you know how to
do X?" "Do you know what X does?" Etc. If the answer is "No", then I
take the time to reply to the "No" response before moving back to their
original question.


Underneath these comments is the assumption that every
user knows how to use a computer, do searches, properly store their
data, anything and everything.


If a person knows 'nothing' about computers, they need to take a night
school course, seek help from a friend or just fiqure it out on their
own. What did you do when you got your first computer?

It really depends what environment you were brought up in.
I got exposure to all sorts of crap along the way, and
didn't really take any courses on what buttons to push,
how to use a mouse. In such an environment, everyone
around you is a teacher.

In high school, as a group we made that process even more
explicit. In our math class, students who had some exposure
to a computer language, would give a one hour lecture to the
other students. No teachers at all involved, no assignments.
It wasn't organized by the teachers. Just people teaching
other people. When we started playing with APL at school,
we bootstrapped ourselves. The teachers didn't have to do
anything (except hand out the account and password details).

Later in school, one of the students was even a part
time computer consultant, with his own business. In such
an environment, you have plenty of resources you can tap.

It's harder for older people, who are in isolation (rural),
or they're surrounded by people who also have no computer
experience. Even the night school course is not going to
be much good, because there's no encouragement to go with it.
When you're surrounded by people all playing with the same
stuff, it's a lot easier.

And some people were never meant to use computers :-)
I spent two years trying to teach someone at work.
It was a hard slog. The situation changed, when
that individual got a home computer for his son.
Soon his son was teaching him, and I was off the hook :-)

Paul

Jim has written on 12/10/2013 4:11 PM:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:33:37 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

Underneath these comments is the assumption that every
user knows how to use a computer, do searches, properly store their
data, anything and everything.


If a person knows 'nothing' about computers, they need to take a night
school course, seek help from a friend or just fiqure it out on their
own. What did you do when you got your first computer?

In my over-55 community, most people were given computers by their
children who showed them how to open IE, surf and how to get email via
their ISP's webmail site.

Why would they take a course????

I know which is the best operating system - it is the operating system you
like. No need to continue explaining why you think (feel) a particular
operating system is best. Nothing will ever change the fact that the best
operating system you like is the best.

-Alamoman
Como Tejas, no hay otro

"Ken Springer" wrote in message ...

On 12/10/13 11:59 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Ken Springer:
In this case, you're using a third party piece of software. Apple's
OSes do it "in house", is my understanding. I'm not an iOS owner, not
likely to be, so can't test anything. No third party software involved.

But, if I'm guessing correctly, you have to first learn how to use
Google's To-Do list, then get it to work with your devices. With Apple,
turn it on, make sure the appropriate app is running, and done. The
only thing you set up is an Apple account.

Correct on all accounts - and it's a nice illustration of the difference
between the two systems' paradigms:
Plug-and-Play-At-The-Expense-Of-Control vs
More-Control-But-Expertise-Needed.

Both totally valid - and each well-suited to different users.

Which rather succinctly points out the differences between OS X and
Windows, and why no single OS will ever fit everyone.

I know a lot of people who have Windows, and get frustrated that it just
doesn't work. I get frustrated with OS X because I have limited
control. But I still like the "it just works" over the lack of control
anymore. I've got Windows to futz with for fun. LOL


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 17:34:29 -0500, Juan Wei
wrote:

Jim has written on 12/10/2013 4:11 PM:

If a person knows 'nothing' about computers, they need to take a night
school course, seek help from a friend or just fiqure it out on their
own. What did you do when you got your first computer?

In my over-55 community, most people were given computers by their
children who showed them how to open IE, surf and how to get email via
their ISP's webmail site.

Why would they take a course?


My first personal commuter was in 1987, when I was 49. I bought it
myself, but my 26 year old son showed my how to use it (no IE,
surfing, or e-mail back in those days; he showed me how to use DOS).

Although I knew nothing about personal computer before then, I had 25
years of professional experience on mainframes.

I've never taken a personal computer course; I've since learned what
I know from reading books, from doing internet searches, from
newsgroups and web forums, and by experimentation on my own. And I've
taught several computer courses.

On 12/10/2013, Leo posted:
I know which is the best operating system - it is the operating system you
like. No need to continue explaining why you think (feel) a particular
operating system is best. Nothing will ever change the fact that the best
operating system you like is the best.

That is true, but I might not yet know which operating system I like,
so other people's opinions could help me think of things to try.

I of course would prefer the opinions to be given without missionaryism
:-)

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On 12/10/13 2:11 PM, Jim wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:33:37 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

On 12/9/13 5:07 PM, Jim wrote:
I wonder why people have a problem using Google for Windows 8 info,
but looking for info on how to set up the Mac or Linux is perfectly
fine.

Comments like this, and I mean nothing personal, just dismay/disappoint
me any more. Underneath these comments is the assumption that every
user knows how to use a computer, do searches, properly store their
data, anything and everything.

They don't, unfortunately. And to assume they do reflects badly on
those making these comments. AFAIK, humans have not evolved genetically
to have this knowledge built into the DNA of the species.

Rather than assume someone knows something, I ask. "Do you know how to
do X?" "Do you know what X does?" Etc. If the answer is "No", then I
take the time to reply to the "No" response before moving back to their
original question.


Underneath these comments is the assumption that every
user knows how to use a computer, do searches, properly store their
data, anything and everything.


If a person knows 'nothing' about computers, they need to take a night
school course, seek help from a friend or just fiqure it out on their
own.

1. If they know nothing about computers:
a. Why would they automatically think of taking a night course?
b. What if there's no place to take a night school course? I recently
took an MS Publisher course at the local library. For curiosity
and to get a friend to take the course. Total disappointment.
They taught nothing about the fact that Publisher is a DTP program,
and what DTP software is for. Just how to use a built in template
to make a flier.

I did learn one thing... A bug that existed with fonts in the version
that was a companion to MS Office Professional 4.3 still exists.
c. And if they have no computer knowledgeable friends as Paul
said in ?
Then what?
d. If they know nothing about computers, then online courses are out.
I've
taken a couple, and they are worth the time and effort. Not even the
two college courses I took. Money down the drain for the little I
learned. :-)
e. The newer the OS, the more sophisticated it is. Thus, the hard it
is to "figure
it out on their own". That's why people need decent manuals that both
MS and Apple fail to provide anymore. So people have to have access to
a brick and mortar bookstore to look at manuals such as the Pogue series
for OS X to find something that helps them. And, they need to be given
the information to go to the bookstore. Don't assume they know that.

The type of information/education needed by people of all ages just
isn't taught, from what I can discern. There are no more magazines like
Creative Computing that take you through learning about the very basics
of computers. And the courses I've looked at to recommend to friends
are all like the Publisher course I mentioned. You learn nothing about
the subject, just a few monkey see monkey do steps in the program.

I haven't read all the appropriate help files in Windows 7, but MS seems
to have made a very good start in giving users the kind of basic
computer knowledge I'd bet everyone reading this newsgroup has. But MS
and the manufacturers did a lousy job of helping people find out the
information was there, and how to access it.

1. Find a Windows 7 computer
2. Open the Help and Support home screen.
a. For my 7 install, under the subtitle "Not sure where to start?"
the 2nd link
is "Learn about Windows Basics". Click on that.

I had access to an HP Win 7 computer for a short time, and HP had
modified
the help files a bit, so your machine may be different. My Win 7 is
a retail
copy.
3. The first link available to me is "Introduction to computers".
Click on that.

This is where the person who knows nothing about computers needs to
start. Regardless of age. And... Regardless of OS too, I think. And
some people who manage to use computers also need to read this article.
And every other article in the "Learn about Windows Basics" list. If
this had been part of XP's Help Files, my friend may not have written
data to the System Recovery partition.

I've got a couple very small issues with the information, but they
aren't big enough to whine about since finding this information anywhere
seems to be difficult.

Now... Try to find that information in Windows 8.0. I haven't been
able to. I don't have 8.1, so I don't know if it's there but I'd bet it
isn't.

My 8.0 installation is the default setup from the introductory upgrade
package for $40. The only change I've made to the tiled desktop that I
remember is to move the desktop tile to the upper left corner to make it
easier to click on.

And guess what? There is no Help and Support tile anywhere. How does
the new user access Help and Support to learn the new system when
there's no obvious place to click? If you go to the All Apps screen,
there's a tile for Help and Support. But how do you get to the All Apps
screen? There's no tile for that on the default start screen.

It looks like MS just "assumed" everyone would know how to do it. And
I'm sure everyone here knows the old joke about the word "assume".

What did you do when you got your first computer?

After I learned of the existence of computers, I bought a decked out
Atari 800, 48k RAM, printer, two 5.25" floppies, 10" Panasonic color TV,
and a selection of software. I still have it. I knew 3 things about
computers when I started: 1) how to spell computer, 2) it looked like a
typewriter, and 3) there was a TV attached.

I subscribed to Creative Computing and a similar mag I can't remember
the name of. And I became a "figure it out on my own" type. I did take
the Basic Programming Language course at the local community college
when it was added. And learned I didn't want to be a programmer! LOL

And I bought books, too. Some got read, some didn't. Most I still have.

Many was the night I would be dog tired at 8:30. But I turned the
computer on, and was wide awake at 1 AM!

Atari had a wonderful set of owner's manuals that explained many of
those "basic building blocks" of a computer system. I took those
building blocks and built upon them based on using the computer.

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8

On 12/10/13 3:37 PM, Leo wrote:
I know which is the best operating system - it is the operating system you
like. No need to continue explaining why you think (feel) a particular
operating system is best. Nothing will ever change the fact that the best
operating system you like is the best.

I don't have a system, at least a contemporary system, I think is the
best, just one that I prefer.

snip


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8

Jim has written on 12/10/2013 7:46 PM:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 15:49:41 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP"
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 17:34:29 -0500, Juan Wei
wrote:

Jim has written on 12/10/2013 4:11 PM:

If a person knows 'nothing' about computers, they need to take a night
school course, seek help from a friend or just fiqure it out on their
own. What did you do when you got your first computer?

In my over-55 community, most people were given computers by their
children who showed them how to open IE, surf and how to get email via
their ISP's webmail site.

Why would they take a course?

I said take a course or seek help from a friend. Those people you talk
about were TAUGHT how to do those things by their children. They did
seek help from a relative who may or may not be their friend. Where
would they have gotten those basic skills if their children didn't
teach them? There is nothing wrong with taking a course.

They didn't seek it; it was foist on them.

Didn't say there was. Meant to imply that after sonny set them up, they
figured they didn't need to know any more.

I have to say that it is no fun helping someone with their computer
problems when they don't know the basic stuff like how to move files
around, copy&paste etc., etc. There is nothing wrong with taking a
course to learn the basics.

No one said it was wrong.

Jim has written on 12/10/2013 8:48 PM:

I was brought up in an environment where nobody I knew could use a
computer. I think not much has changed for me. The only geeks I get to
talk to are here. I mostly learn things myself through trial and
error. One of the first and most important things I learned was to
make a backup image. Once I had that under control I felt that I could
try anything and if I screwed up badly, which was often the case, I
could restore the computer in a short time. I learned that when I was
a Mac user so I knew the importance of a backup image before I started
with Windows.

How do *you* make *your* backup image? Where do you put it? How often do
you do it?

On 2013-12-11, Juan Wei wrote:
Jim has written on 12/10/2013 7:46 PM:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 15:49:41 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP"
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 17:34:29 -0500, Juan Wei
wrote:

Jim has written on 12/10/2013 4:11 PM:

If a person knows 'nothing' about computers, they need to take a night
school course, seek help from a friend or just fiqure it out on their
own. What did you do when you got your first computer?

In my over-55 community, most people were given computers by their
children who showed them how to open IE, surf and how to get email via
their ISP's webmail site.

Why would they take a course?

I said take a course or seek help from a friend. Those people you talk
about were TAUGHT how to do those things by their children. They did
seek help from a relative who may or may not be their friend. Where
would they have gotten those basic skills if their children didn't
teach them? There is nothing wrong with taking a course.

They didn't seek it; it was foist on them.

Didn't say there was. Meant to imply that after sonny set them up, they
figured they didn't need to know any more.

I have to say that it is no fun helping someone with their computer
problems when they don't know the basic stuff like how to move files
around, copy&paste etc., etc. There is nothing wrong with taking a
course to learn the basics.

No one said it was wrong.

My 1st computer was an Atari 800 in 1980/81, for games & possible
"programming" & cataloging my record collection. Quickly found that
the checkbook app wasn't any good for my needs (very simple) nor
the dBase app for the record collection (too much trouble/work). No
backups needed but able to "dup" the tape software on casette tapes
quite easily. I did eventually get a disk drive when they became
available; then modified it for "better" operations.
When the Atari ST came out, got one of those as well.

BUT the biggest thing that haven't been mentioned was the existence
of computer clubs where people got together for info, help & advice.
Don't know if computer clubs are still active as they may still be a
source of valuable info/help. There used to be a plentiful number
of the clubs.

Next was a pclone, Olivettie (Corona) transportable where I blew it
up eventually. Cheap, ran well with the installed 512K; able to get
it up to 640K for use with a color graphics card; and that was the
trouble of not reading the manual 1st. After the sound of "puff"
& smoke died down, looked to find the trouble but couldn't find
any replacement part (Olivetti got sued for copying the ibm bios).
Then discover/read that the max the Olivetti can do was 512K!
And that's where the "computer swap meets" were vaulable to
get a desktop.

Did try to use a Mac 512 at work which really turned me off on
Apple besides their expensive additional costings of necessary
items. I stuck a 3 1/2 diskette, Atari format, & expected to get
the Mac 512 to reformat in its own format for use. Instead the
Mac just greyed out the disk drive, saying there is an error & NOT
ejecting the diskette. Finally I just unplugged the Mac & the
offending diskette got ejected! Later on, was informed I "should
have used a paper clip" to insert into the hole to eject the diskette.
Reinforced that Apple lied about being "user friendly" or easy to
use; I've alwas felt if Apple's claim of icons is better, then
everything should have been in Chinese/Japanese.

On 12/10/13 5:57 PM, Jim wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:57:03 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

On 12/10/13 2:11 PM, Jim wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:33:37 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

On 12/9/13 5:07 PM, Jim wrote:

snip

TMI.

I've sat here and stared and stared... I know I'll feel stupid, but
TMI=??????? LOL

Stick with your Mac.

I will as long as the pluses outweigh the minuses for me. I wasn't a
Mac user until early 2009, when my eMachines with XP Pro
self-destructed. Power supply failure took the motherboard, keyboard,
and mouse. I was so-o-o-o-o-o-o tired of having to do updates every
couple of weeks, viruses, and who knows what else at the time I went to
the new Apple store because I knew Macs were less susceptible to
malware. As soon as I saw the display on this Mac, I was hooked. At
the time, I'd never seen anything on a Windows machine that looked
nearly as good.

And to be honest, I still haven't from something right out of the box.
I think part of it then and now is the average Windows widescreen
monitor is 16:9 aspect ratio. Back then, Macs were 16:10 aspect ratio.
I built a Win7/Win8 computer with a Dell monitor of the same size and
resolution as this Mac over the last summer, and 16:10 aspect ratio.
1920 x 1200, 24". The Dell is damned close to this older Apple.
Really, really close for jpgs. I haven't compared quality of things
like text display inside an application such as a word processor,
spreadsheet, etc. If I had a video card and/or 3rd party software on
the computer, I could probably match it. But the difference is not
enough to make me want to mess with it.

The Windows box is far faster than this Mac. Same RAM, BTW. I built it
that way. But it mainly comes down to having to deal with malware,
which I mostly don't have to do, very few updates are needed, free
upgrade to Mavericks if I want to go there, and it just works.

When the time comes to move on from this Mac, everyone including Linux
will get a good look. I'll get what I like and want at that time. I
won't care which is cheapest, most popular, whatever. I want something
that I'm happy with, and works or can be made to work the way I want.
Currently, I don't care for the trend I see from both MS and Apple. But
who knows what the future may bring.

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8