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#1
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Defrag
My defragmenter played up yesterday, but it worked this morning. I have
the icons for Disc Cleanup and Defragmenter on my desktop as I started with W7. I now have W10 which does not let you get at the programs. How will I get them if I get a new computer? -- Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman |
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#2
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Defrag
On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 07:38:55 +0100, Martin Edwards wrote:
My defragmenter played up yesterday, but it worked this morning. I have the icons for Disc Cleanup and Defragmenter on my desktop as I started with W7. I now have W10 which does not let you get at the programs. How will I get them if I get a new computer? Open file explorer and right click on your c: drive then click on properties at the bottom. Under the tools tab click optimize and that will bring up the defragmenter/trim gui. |
#3
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Defrag
On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 07:13:26 -0000 (UTC), wg_2002
wrote: On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 07:38:55 +0100, Martin Edwards wrote: My defragmenter played up yesterday, but it worked this morning. I have the icons for Disc Cleanup and Defragmenter on my desktop as I started with W7. I now have W10 which does not let you get at the programs. How will I get them if I get a new computer? Open file explorer and right click on your c: drive then click on properties at the bottom. Under the tools tab click optimize and that will bring up the defragmenter/trim gui. Doesn't W10 defrag in the background anyway, no need to run it manually? |
#4
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Defrag
On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 09:25:40 +0100, Davidm wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 07:13:26 -0000 (UTC), wg_2002 wrote: On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 07:38:55 +0100, Martin Edwards wrote: My defragmenter played up yesterday, but it worked this morning. I have the icons for Disc Cleanup and Defragmenter on my desktop as I started with W7. I now have W10 which does not let you get at the programs. How will I get them if I get a new computer? Open file explorer and right click on your c: drive then click on properties at the bottom. Under the tools tab click optimize and that will bring up the defragmenter/trim gui. Doesn't W10 defrag in the background anyway, no need to run it manually? Yes it does it automatically on a weekly basis when the pc is inactive. I I believe it's a feature that was introduced with Vista/7. They are so similar though that I can't remember which OS exactly. I guess some people just like the idea of clicking the optimize button and watching defrag do its work. |
#5
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Defrag
On 8/18/2017 5:39 AM, wg_2002 wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 09:25:40 +0100, Davidm wrote: On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 07:13:26 -0000 (UTC), wg_2002 wrote: On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 07:38:55 +0100, Martin Edwards wrote: My defragmenter played up yesterday, but it worked this morning. I have the icons for Disc Cleanup and Defragmenter on my desktop as I started with W7. I now have W10 which does not let you get at the programs. How will I get them if I get a new computer? Open file explorer and right click on your c: drive then click on properties at the bottom. Under the tools tab click optimize and that will bring up the defragmenter/trim gui. Doesn't W10 defrag in the background anyway, no need to run it manually? Yes it does it automatically on a weekly basis when the pc is inactive. I I believe it's a feature that was introduced with Vista/7. They are so similar though that I can't remember which OS exactly. Win7 = Vista 1.5 I guess some people just like the idea of clicking the optimize button and watching defrag do its work. There are many tasks that can quickly fragment files, particularly if those files are larger than a sector in size. Knowing how to manually run defrag is useful to those of us who do such work. -- best regards, Neil |
#6
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Defrag
On 18/8/2017 01:25, Davidm wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 07:13:26 -0000 (UTC), wg_2002 wrote: On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 07:38:55 +0100, Martin Edwards wrote: My defragmenter played up yesterday, but it worked this morning. I have the icons for Disc Cleanup and Defragmenter on my desktop as I started with W7. I now have W10 which does not let you get at the programs. How will I get them if I get a new computer? Open file explorer and right click on your c: drive then click on properties at the bottom. Under the tools tab click optimize and that will bring up the defragmenter/trim gui. Doesn't W10 defrag in the background anyway, no need to run it manually? That's the default, but if your computer is turned off when defrag is scheduled to run . . . Isn't it about time MS released a filesystem that doesn't need defragging? Other OSes have them. NTFS is a quarter of a century old for god's sake! Even with all those patches installed over the years, its foundation is still ancient technology. Time to replace it with something better. Or enable Windows so it can use other filesystems. Stef |
#7
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Defrag
On 8/18/2017 10:42 AM, KenW wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 09:30:49 -0400, Neil wrote: On 8/18/2017 5:39 AM, wg_2002 wrote: On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 09:25:40 +0100, Davidm wrote: On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 07:13:26 -0000 (UTC), wg_2002 wrote: On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 07:38:55 +0100, Martin Edwards wrote: My defragmenter played up yesterday, but it worked this morning. I have the icons for Disc Cleanup and Defragmenter on my desktop as I started with W7. I now have W10 which does not let you get at the programs. How will I get them if I get a new computer? Open file explorer and right click on your c: drive then click on properties at the bottom. Under the tools tab click optimize and that will bring up the defragmenter/trim gui. Doesn't W10 defrag in the background anyway, no need to run it manually? Yes it does it automatically on a weekly basis when the pc is inactive. I I believe it's a feature that was introduced with Vista/7. They are so similar though that I can't remember which OS exactly. Win7 = Vista 1.5 I guess some people just like the idea of clicking the optimize button and watching defrag do its work. There are many tasks that can quickly fragment files, particularly if those files are larger than a sector in size. Knowing how to manually run defrag is useful to those of us who do such work. There is a manual way. Get an ssd and forget defrag. If you analyze a ssd it really looks very bad. Confused me the first time ! Yes, one can forget defrag with an SSD, but then one should learn about trim. SSDs are OK for the work that typical users do, but for those whose work involves a high volume of extensive writes, they have their issues that need to be understood. -- best regards, Neil |
#8
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Defrag
KenW wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 09:30:49 -0400, Neil wrote: On 8/18/2017 5:39 AM, wg_2002 wrote: On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 09:25:40 +0100, Davidm wrote: On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 07:13:26 -0000 (UTC), wg_2002 wrote: On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 07:38:55 +0100, Martin Edwards wrote: My defragmenter played up yesterday, but it worked this morning. I have the icons for Disc Cleanup and Defragmenter on my desktop as I started with W7. I now have W10 which does not let you get at the programs. How will I get them if I get a new computer? Open file explorer and right click on your c: drive then click on properties at the bottom. Under the tools tab click optimize and that will bring up the defragmenter/trim gui. Doesn't W10 defrag in the background anyway, no need to run it manually? Yes it does it automatically on a weekly basis when the pc is inactive. I I believe it's a feature that was introduced with Vista/7. They are so similar though that I can't remember which OS exactly. Win7 = Vista 1.5 I guess some people just like the idea of clicking the optimize button and watching defrag do its work. There are many tasks that can quickly fragment files, particularly if those files are larger than a sector in size. Knowing how to manually run defrag is useful to those of us who do such work. There is a manual way. Get an ssd and forget defrag. If you analyze a ssd it really looks very bad. Confused me the first time ! KenW Contrary to popular opinion, there are still reasons for defragmenting an SSD. https://www.hanselman.com/blog/TheRe...YourSS D.aspx "Windows does sometimes defragment SSDs, yes" "necessary due to slow volsnap copy-on-write" "If an SSD gets too fragmented you can hit maximum file fragmentation (when the metadata can’t represent any more file fragments) which will result in errors when you try to write/extend a file." It's not the "seek time of zero" property. It's more the side effects of the file system design that require it. But it isn't done all that often, or to all the files. ******* For example, I noticed early on, that when the Search Indexer was indexing, it was writing to Windows.edb (the search database). Great, except, other things are also writing the file system at the same time. This means writes to Windows.edb are interleaved with other activity, and the space it gets is not contiguous. If you use NFI.exe, it lists the LBAs used. This sample I just dug up out of an NFI output, shows a Search Indexer file which isn't actually fragmented. File 1023 \ProgramData\Microsoft\Search\Data\Applications\Wi ndows\Windows.edb $STANDARD_INFORMATION (resident) $FILE_NAME (resident) $DATA (nonresident) logical sectors 11006368-11088415 (0xa7f1a0-0xa9321f) For example, a file further down in that same volume, looks like this. File 228076 \Windows\Prefetch\ReadyBoot\Trace3.fx $STANDARD_INFORMATION (resident) $FILE_NAME (resident) $DATA (nonresident) logical sectors 39431808-39431871 (0x259ae80-0x259aebf) logical sectors 39435776-39435839 (0x259be00-0x259be3f) logical sectors 39443104-39443167 (0x259daa0-0x259dadf) ... 42 lines deleted logical sectors 46455456-46455471 (0x2c4daa0-0x2c4daaf) There's a limit as to how many logical sector lines, one entry in the $MFT can hold. So if the file has more fragments than that, you find a new file number, with the *same* file name. So if Windows.edb was too fragmented, the file system would open a second filenum to hold the LBA numbers File 5678 \ProgramData\Microsoft\Search\Data\Applications\Wi ndows\Windows.edb and that provides an extension to the file. The Windows.edb I was looking at, had been extended around 30 times. It might have had more than a thousand fragments. There must be some limit as to how many extensions are sensible to do. I don't expect the file system has "limits", but seeking to all those filenum entries takes time. What I notice on recent Windows 10 versions, is this file is getting defragmented (somehow), and probably not by a regular, full, defrag.exe run. All it might take, is the equivalent of Sysinternals "contig.exe" program. But of course, with better logic than "contig.exe" uses. Contig.exe is not a defragmenter either. It just looks for a decently large white space, and re-copies the file. Sometimes, the copy has fragments, and the command must be issued a second time. So whatever the Microsoft developers decided on, works better than that :-) Using the above article, will give you a better idea of how Microsoft treats your SSD. I actually learned how the "severely fragmented" file thing works, while looking for Windows.edb. And that's why I noticed it was a pretty dumb idea on 10240, and it seems to work a lot better now. Maybe they just defragment it at shutdown or something, just that single file. If there is a VSS Volsnap issue, then that might take more writes to correct. The defrag.exe on the machine, really doesn't defragment everything. It's selective about what it works on. And very selective about SSDs... If you need to "coax" the best performance out of Windows defrag.exe, you can use JKDefrag 3.36 from the command line, to push data around. For example, when I had a partition with "100% fragmentation", and there was only 3GB of white space, the Win10 defrag.exe refused to consolidate the space and fix it. Using JKDefrag, I "pushed all the data down" on the partition. It doesn't matter how much of a "fragmentation mess" this makes, because if the defragmenter can get out of its rut, it's going to fix all of it. jkdefrag -a 5 -d 2 F: Then, after that, let the Windows defragmenter run. And it was then able to defragment the partition. Normally, defragmentation tools insist on a certain minimum of white space, so they can move stuff around. But if you're really tight for space, it's possible to "manually assist" the process. And making a single chunk of white space can help. Paul |
#9
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Defrag
Stef wrote:
On 18/8/2017 01:25, Davidm wrote: On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 07:13:26 -0000 (UTC), wg_2002 wrote: On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 07:38:55 +0100, Martin Edwards wrote: My defragmenter played up yesterday, but it worked this morning. I have the icons for Disc Cleanup and Defragmenter on my desktop as I started with W7. I now have W10 which does not let you get at the programs. How will I get them if I get a new computer? Open file explorer and right click on your c: drive then click on properties at the bottom. Under the tools tab click optimize and that will bring up the defragmenter/trim gui. Doesn't W10 defrag in the background anyway, no need to run it manually? That's the default, but if your computer is turned off when defrag is scheduled to run . . . Isn't it about time MS released a filesystem that doesn't need defragging? Other OSes have them. NTFS is a quarter of a century old for god's sake! Even with all those patches installed over the years, its foundation is still ancient technology. Time to replace it with something better. Or enable Windows so it can use other filesystems. Stef I think the current design of Windows 10, handles the situation with intelligence. Regularly scheduled defrags keep the "percentage" number low. They have also added something (special handling) for certain problem files. And this seems to have been added on the later versions of Win10. But I have ways of creating a mess. My "100% fragmented" volume, a small volume by the way, was the result of doing a chromium build. And just for fun, I had the defrag.exe take a crack at that. Well, it needed a little help, because I wasn't meeting the minimum white space requirement. There was no place to move the files. In average usage, stuff like this doesn't happen. If I'd done the software build on a regular hard drive, with lots of slack, there would have been no issue at all. But I did the build on a RAMdisk which was barely big enough for the job. The fragmentation makes no difference to a RAMDisk, but I thought it would be fun to see whether the defragmenter utility could handle a pretty severe mess. Once I'd helped it out, it worked fine. But it couldn't get past the first bit. Its heuristic wasn't good enough. Microsoft has another file system. This is newer than NTFS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refs "In addition, Windows cannot be booted from a ReFS volume." So apparently, that's not what it is for. And I cannot tell from that article, whether fragmentation remains an issue or not. Paul |
#10
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Defrag
KenW wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 12:10:11 -0400, Paul wrote: KenW wrote: On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 09:30:49 -0400, Neil wrote: On 8/18/2017 5:39 AM, wg_2002 wrote: On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 09:25:40 +0100, Davidm wrote: On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 07:13:26 -0000 (UTC), wg_2002 wrote: On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 07:38:55 +0100, Martin Edwards wrote: My defragmenter played up yesterday, but it worked this morning. I have the icons for Disc Cleanup and Defragmenter on my desktop as I started with W7. I now have W10 which does not let you get at the programs. How will I get them if I get a new computer? Open file explorer and right click on your c: drive then click on properties at the bottom. Under the tools tab click optimize and that will bring up the defragmenter/trim gui. Doesn't W10 defrag in the background anyway, no need to run it manually? Yes it does it automatically on a weekly basis when the pc is inactive. I I believe it's a feature that was introduced with Vista/7. They are so similar though that I can't remember which OS exactly. Win7 = Vista 1.5 I guess some people just like the idea of clicking the optimize button and watching defrag do its work. There are many tasks that can quickly fragment files, particularly if those files are larger than a sector in size. Knowing how to manually run defrag is useful to those of us who do such work. There is a manual way. Get an ssd and forget defrag. If you analyze a ssd it really looks very bad. Confused me the first time ! KenW Contrary to popular opinion, there are still reasons for defragmenting an SSD. https://www.hanselman.com/blog/TheRe...YourSS D.aspx "Windows does sometimes defragment SSDs, yes" "necessary due to slow volsnap copy-on-write" "If an SSD gets too fragmented you can hit maximum file fragmentation (when the metadata can’t represent any more file fragments) which will result in errors when you try to write/extend a file." It's not the "seek time of zero" property. It's more the side effects of the file system design that require it. But it isn't done all that often, or to all the files. ******* Like politics today, everyone and idiots have their own opinion. Right or wrong. I will not form an opinion and not defrag. I will depend on the ssd and trim to do it's thing. I will wait for the manufactures to decide what is best if I can find the information. KenW I was explaining there, why the *Windows* defragmenter can schedule a defrag operation for your SSD. We were told, some time back, that Windows would not defragment an SSD and was smart enough to turn that feature off. But that's actually not true (after all). There are situations where Windows will take care of it for you, and you might not notice what the hell is going on. Hanselman answers the question, of whether they ever consider doing it or not at Microsoft. And the answer is Yes, the automation thinks about it. Paul |
#11
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Defrag
KenW wrote on 8/18/2017 10:42 AM:
Get an ssd and forget defrag. However, W10 will defrag that SSD (by default) unless you turn it off! |
#12
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Defrag
Alek wrote:
KenW wrote: Get an ssd and forget defrag. However, W10 will defrag that SSD (by default) unless you turn it off! It should detect the media type as solid state, and then for that drive the scheduled "optimisation" will consist of trimming, rather than defragging. |
#13
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Defrag
Andy Burns wrote on 8/18/2017 3:08 PM:
Alek wrote: KenW wrote: Get an ssd and forget defrag. However, W10 will defrag that SSD (by default) unless you turn it off! It should detect the media type as solid state, and then for that drive the scheduled "optimisation" will consist of trimming, rather than defragging. How would I know that it has done that? |
#14
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Defrag
Alek wrote:
Andy Burns wrote: It should detect the media type as solid state, and then for that drive the scheduled "optimisation" will consist of trimming, rather than defragging. How would I know that it has done that? Right click the drive in question, properties, tools, optimise and it will tell you the media type ... https://www.tenforums.com/attachments/tutorials/25842d1485953034-optimize-defrag-drives-windows-10-a-optimize_drive-3.png |
#15
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Defrag
On 8/18/2017 9:25 AM, Davidm wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 07:13:26 -0000 (UTC), wg_2002 wrote: On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 07:38:55 +0100, Martin Edwards wrote: My defragmenter played up yesterday, but it worked this morning. I have the icons for Disc Cleanup and Defragmenter on my desktop as I started with W7. I now have W10 which does not let you get at the programs. How will I get them if I get a new computer? Open file explorer and right click on your c: drive then click on properties at the bottom. Under the tools tab click optimize and that will bring up the defragmenter/trim gui. Doesn't W10 defrag in the background anyway, no need to run it manually? I don't think so: the drive was quite badly fragged. -- Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman |
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