simple home networking

Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 1/26/2018 5:05 AM, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ* wrote:
Jason wrote:
I read that MS is going to ditch Homegroup networking so it's all going to
be via OneDrive. For years, we've had several devices networked just fine
with a Homegroup: PC's, TV's and other random experimets of mine. From
what I've read about OD, it's not clear that I can achieve that simple
sort of networking setup. I have zero interest in storing anything in the
MS cloud. Homegroup networking wasn't without problems, but it was simple
and adequate. Can OD be as simple?


The statement of ditching HomeGroup and all going to be OneDrive is not
accurate.

The deprecation of HomeGroup for networking is not related to OneDrive.
- OneDrive is a cloud based storage app not a device networking feature

The same method of device networking that is available now and also
existed prior to HomeGroup's inclusion in Windows(Windows 7) will apply
after HomeGroup functionality and support ends.

HomeGroup will be removed in the next Windows feature update, Version
1803(aka Redstone 4), which will be released later this year(current est.
March 2018).

I really needed to know that 1803 will be release later this year. I started
trying to install 1703 on my tablet when it came out while updating my other
two computers.** I just finally succeeded within the last week .** If it
goes as 1703, I should have it installed on all three computers in a year.

A few things to note.
Once 1803 is released to the general public, the Media Creation Tool
downloadable exe file will also be updated and will only create 1803 media.
- the only route to create prior media from MSFT will be use of an earlier
version of the Media Creation Tool's exe file. The exception would be
access to MSFT's Visual Studio or similar authorized subscription service
but these also are not in perpetuity guaranteed.

Once 1803 is released the CBB-SemiAnnualChannel clock starts ticking for
prior o/s. When 1803 is declared CBB-SAC, then support becomes limited to
the current(1803) and prior(1709) version, thus 1703 will fall out of
support after a short(a few months)grandfathering period.
- doesn't mean a device with 1703 won't run, it just won't be capable of
o/s and security update. The exception - unless MSFT releases 1703 updates
for those devices after support ends.

Any reason why you chose 1703 and not the latest released version 1709?

--
...w¡ñ§±¤ñ
msft mvp windows experience 2007-2016, insider mvp 2016-2018

EGK wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 22:51:46 +0800, "Mr. Man-wai Chang"
wrote:

On 26/1/2018 22:48, Char Jackson wrote:

I don't disable anything. I ignore both Homegroups and Workgroups, and
simply use IP addresses.

You really should disable unused services. Anyway....

I can't remember if you posted in that recent thread I created about Windows
10 networking being broken again? Zaghadka pointed out that every time
Windows 10 upgrades itself it re-enables all those Homegroup services which
often cause computers to disappear from the network even if you don't use
homegroups. It's a pain in the ass.

Char mentioned he doesn't care if he sees the computer names in network
settings.

Enabling HomeGroup services via Feature Update doesn't enable HomeGroup
networking in favor of standard Workgroup networking.

Homegroup will continue to appear(like it always has since Win7) in File
Explorer(aka Windows Explorer) navigation pane unless one forces its removal
via a registry tweak.


--
...w¡ñ§±¤ñ
msft mvp windows experience 2007-2016, insider mvp 2016-2018

Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 26/1/2018 23:29, EGK wrote:

I can't remember if you posted in that recent thread I created about Windows
10 networking being broken again?** Zaghadka pointed out that every time
Windows 10 upgrades itself it re-enables all those Homegroup services which
often cause computers to disappear from the network even if you don't use
homegroups.* It's a pain in the ass.

I cannot confirm nor deny this behavior, BUT I don't remember seeing
Homegroup being re-enabled after an upgrade or update. I usually disable all
Homegroup-related services right after installation of Win 10 via USB,
before applying cumulative upgrade.


There's a difference between the HomeGroup 'service' and the HomeGroup
'feature' being enabled.
- the former 'service' can be enabled but the latter not enabled('Ready to
Create but not functional).



--
...w¡ñ§±¤ñ
msft mvp windows experience 2007-2016, insider mvp 2016-2018

On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 10:29:53 -0500, EGK wrote:

On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 22:51:46 +0800, "Mr. Man-wai Chang"
wrote:

On 26/1/2018 22:48, Char Jackson wrote:

I don't disable anything. I ignore both Homegroups and Workgroups, and
simply use IP addresses.

You really should disable unused services. Anyway....

I can't remember if you posted in that recent thread I created about Windows
10 networking being broken again? Zaghadka pointed out that every time
Windows 10 upgrades itself it re-enables all those Homegroup services which
often cause computers to disappear from the network even if you don't use
homegroups. It's a pain in the ass.

Char mentioned he doesn't care if he sees the computer names in network
settings.

Correct. My goal is simply networking, so I don't need to see the names
of the computers. I know them by their respective IP addresses.

Char Jackson wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 10:29:53 -0500, EGK wrote:

On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 22:51:46 +0800, "Mr. Man-wai Chang"
wrote:

On 26/1/2018 22:48, Char Jackson wrote:
I don't disable anything. I ignore both Homegroups and Workgroups, and
simply use IP addresses.
You really should disable unused services. Anyway....
I can't remember if you posted in that recent thread I created about Windows
10 networking being broken again? Zaghadka pointed out that every time
Windows 10 upgrades itself it re-enables all those Homegroup services which
often cause computers to disappear from the network even if you don't use
homegroups. It's a pain in the ass.

Char mentioned he doesn't care if he sees the computer names in network
settings.

Correct. My goal is simply networking, so I don't need to see the names
of the computers. I know them by their respective IP addresses.


I have one home router box here, where the web interface
has a table of DHCP IP address versus host name and
that can come in handy if you have no nameserver
alternative in a dynamic IP situation. I don't know
if the hostname is volunteered as part of DHCP, or
that little router is "cheating" and using some
name service.

If you don't have that, you can assign static IPs
to all your machines. Your router doesn't care.
Just try not to have static IPs in the same range
as the pool you've assigned for DHCP. You could
shrink down your DHCP pool, to make more room
for (non-overlapping) static IP assignments.

Surely everyone here has played with this
at least once in their life - when connecting
two PCs directly to one another with the appropriate
flavor of Ethernet cable :-) Good times.

http://www.rane.com/hal/MobileHelp/A...wsStaticIP.png

Paul

On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 15:13:55 -0500, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ
wrote:

EGK wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 22:51:46 +0800, "Mr. Man-wai Chang"
wrote:

On 26/1/2018 22:48, Char Jackson wrote:

I don't disable anything. I ignore both Homegroups and Workgroups, and
simply use IP addresses.

You really should disable unused services. Anyway....

I can't remember if you posted in that recent thread I created about Windows
10 networking being broken again? Zaghadka pointed out that every time
Windows 10 upgrades itself it re-enables all those Homegroup services which
often cause computers to disappear from the network even if you don't use
homegroups. It's a pain in the ass.

Char mentioned he doesn't care if he sees the computer names in network
settings.

Enabling HomeGroup services via Feature Update doesn't enable HomeGroup
networking in favor of standard Workgroup networking.

Homegroup will continue to appear(like it always has since Win7) in File
Explorer(aka Windows Explorer) navigation pane unless one forces its removal
via a registry tweak.

I haven't done any registry tweak and Homegroup is not showing in my file
explorer since I turned off the homegroup services. When a new upgrade
turns them on again, it will appear. That's when the problems start with
computers not showing up in the network settings. Whether you use homegroup
or not.

On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 00:37:17 -0500, Paul wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 10:29:53 -0500, EGK wrote:

On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 22:51:46 +0800, "Mr. Man-wai Chang"
wrote:

On 26/1/2018 22:48, Char Jackson wrote:
I don't disable anything. I ignore both Homegroups and Workgroups, and
simply use IP addresses.
You really should disable unused services. Anyway....
I can't remember if you posted in that recent thread I created about Windows
10 networking being broken again? Zaghadka pointed out that every time
Windows 10 upgrades itself it re-enables all those Homegroup services which
often cause computers to disappear from the network even if you don't use
homegroups. It's a pain in the ass.

Char mentioned he doesn't care if he sees the computer names in network
settings.

Correct. My goal is simply networking, so I don't need to see the names
of the computers. I know them by their respective IP addresses.


I have one home router box here, where the web interface
has a table of DHCP IP address versus host name and
that can come in handy if you have no nameserver
alternative in a dynamic IP situation. I don't know
if the hostname is volunteered as part of DHCP, or
that little router is "cheating" and using some
name service.

If you don't have that, you can assign static IPs
to all your machines. Your router doesn't care.
Just try not to have static IPs in the same range
as the pool you've assigned for DHCP. You could
shrink down your DHCP pool, to make more room
for (non-overlapping) static IP assignments.

Surely everyone here has played with this
at least once in their life - when connecting
two PCs directly to one another with the appropriate
flavor of Ethernet cable :-) Good times.

These days, nearly every computer comes with a Gigabit NIC, making every
flavor of cable the right flavor. The GigE standard specifies that
Ethernet ports need to be able to figure out on their own, without user
intervention, whether the cable is straight or crossover. Cool stuff.

On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 10:32:15 -0500, EGK wrote:

On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 15:13:55 -0500, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ
wrote:

EGK wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 22:51:46 +0800, "Mr. Man-wai Chang"
wrote:

On 26/1/2018 22:48, Char Jackson wrote:

I don't disable anything. I ignore both Homegroups and Workgroups, and
simply use IP addresses.

You really should disable unused services. Anyway....

I can't remember if you posted in that recent thread I created about Windows
10 networking being broken again? Zaghadka pointed out that every time
Windows 10 upgrades itself it re-enables all those Homegroup services which
often cause computers to disappear from the network even if you don't use
homegroups. It's a pain in the ass.

Char mentioned he doesn't care if he sees the computer names in network
settings.

Enabling HomeGroup services via Feature Update doesn't enable HomeGroup
networking in favor of standard Workgroup networking.

Homegroup will continue to appear(like it always has since Win7) in File
Explorer(aka Windows Explorer) navigation pane unless one forces its removal
via a registry tweak.

I haven't done any registry tweak and Homegroup is not showing in my file
explorer since I turned off the homegroup services. When a new upgrade
turns them on again, it will appear. That's when the problems start with
computers not showing up in the network settings. Whether you use homegroup
or not.

If you switch to using IP addresses to connect to other LAN computers,
you'll be able to stop caring whether those computers "show up" or not.
They're always available, regardless of Homegroup/Workgroup settings or
status.

On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 11:48:44 -0500, Wolf K wrote:

On 2018-01-27 11:34, Char Jackson wrote:
[...]
If you switch to using IP addresses to connect to other LAN computers,
you'll be able to stop caring whether those computers "show up" or not.
They're always available, regardless of Homegroup/Workgroup settings or
status.

Could we have a brief tutorial, please?

See Paul's contribution to the "Ping Char Jackson" thread and let me
know if you still have questions.

On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 10:34:46 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:

On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 10:32:15 -0500, EGK wrote:

On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 15:13:55 -0500, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ
wrote:

EGK wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 22:51:46 +0800, "Mr. Man-wai Chang"
wrote:

On 26/1/2018 22:48, Char Jackson wrote:

I don't disable anything. I ignore both Homegroups and Workgroups, and
simply use IP addresses.

You really should disable unused services. Anyway....

I can't remember if you posted in that recent thread I created about Windows
10 networking being broken again? Zaghadka pointed out that every time
Windows 10 upgrades itself it re-enables all those Homegroup services which
often cause computers to disappear from the network even if you don't use
homegroups. It's a pain in the ass.

Char mentioned he doesn't care if he sees the computer names in network
settings.

Enabling HomeGroup services via Feature Update doesn't enable HomeGroup
networking in favor of standard Workgroup networking.

Homegroup will continue to appear(like it always has since Win7) in File
Explorer(aka Windows Explorer) navigation pane unless one forces its removal
via a registry tweak.

I haven't done any registry tweak and Homegroup is not showing in my file
explorer since I turned off the homegroup services. When a new upgrade
turns them on again, it will appear. That's when the problems start with
computers not showing up in the network settings. Whether you use homegroup
or not.

If you switch to using IP addresses to connect to other LAN computers,
you'll be able to stop caring whether those computers "show up" or not.
They're always available, regardless of Homegroup/Workgroup settings or
status.

You said that. I've used IP addresses to connect before. I just prefer
being able to see what computers are turned on. Different family members
have their own computers and I often copy files to them so like being able
to see them at a glance.

EGK wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 15:13:55 -0500, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ
wrote:

EGK wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 22:51:46 +0800, "Mr. Man-wai Chang"
wrote:

On 26/1/2018 22:48, Char Jackson wrote:

I don't disable anything. I ignore both Homegroups and Workgroups, and
simply use IP addresses.

You really should disable unused services. Anyway....

I can't remember if you posted in that recent thread I created about Windows
10 networking being broken again? Zaghadka pointed out that every time
Windows 10 upgrades itself it re-enables all those Homegroup services which
often cause computers to disappear from the network even if you don't use
homegroups. It's a pain in the ass.

Char mentioned he doesn't care if he sees the computer names in network
settings.

Enabling HomeGroup services via Feature Update doesn't enable HomeGroup
networking in favor of standard Workgroup networking.

Homegroup will continue to appear(like it always has since Win7) in File
Explorer(aka Windows Explorer) navigation pane unless one forces its removal
via a registry tweak.

I haven't done any registry tweak and Homegroup is not showing in my file
explorer since I turned off the homegroup services. When a new upgrade
turns them on again, it will appear. That's when the problems start with
computers not showing up in the network settings. Whether you use homegroup
or not.

Can't duplicate with 1709 or 1703. 1607 did have a networking issue not
seeing devices in Navigatino pane/Network and corrected by KB3194798 in Oct.
2016
Earlier today
-4 total devices on the network using 'Workgroup' method, 2 Win10(1 Pro,1
Home), 2 Win7 Pro, not important but of note router and isp support ipv6
-Homegroup service running on all
-All networked devices, ComputerName and shared folders present in
File/Windows Explorer in Navigation pan under Network
-Disabled Homegroup service on Win10 devices
-Restored 1703 via Acronis Image on both Win10 devices.
-All networked devices, ComputerName and shared folders present in
File/Windows Explorer in Navigation pan under Network
-Installed 1709 on both Win10 devices using Win10 1709 USB media
-Restarted each Win10 device and logged on using MSA(different MSA on each
Win10 device)
-Homegroup services enabled on both Win10 devicesm Homegroup not configured
- All devices and shares still present under File Explorer Network
navigation pane

I've repeated this same test multiple times with each feature
update(install, roll back, reinstall feature, check Networking and shares) -
Can't duplicate


--
...w¡ñ§±¤ñ
msft mvp windows experience 2007-2016, insider mvp 2016-2018

On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 15:04:31 -0500, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ
wrote:

EGK wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 15:13:55 -0500, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ
wrote:

EGK wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 22:51:46 +0800, "Mr. Man-wai Chang"
wrote:

On 26/1/2018 22:48, Char Jackson wrote:

I don't disable anything. I ignore both Homegroups and Workgroups, and
simply use IP addresses.

You really should disable unused services. Anyway....

I can't remember if you posted in that recent thread I created about Windows
10 networking being broken again? Zaghadka pointed out that every time
Windows 10 upgrades itself it re-enables all those Homegroup services which
often cause computers to disappear from the network even if you don't use
homegroups. It's a pain in the ass.

Char mentioned he doesn't care if he sees the computer names in network
settings.

Enabling HomeGroup services via Feature Update doesn't enable HomeGroup
networking in favor of standard Workgroup networking.

Homegroup will continue to appear(like it always has since Win7) in File
Explorer(aka Windows Explorer) navigation pane unless one forces its removal
via a registry tweak.

I haven't done any registry tweak and Homegroup is not showing in my file
explorer since I turned off the homegroup services. When a new upgrade
turns them on again, it will appear. That's when the problems start with
computers not showing up in the network settings. Whether you use homegroup
or not.

Can't duplicate with 1709 or 1703. 1607 did have a networking issue not
seeing devices in Navigatino pane/Network and corrected by KB3194798 in Oct.
2016
Earlier today
-4 total devices on the network using 'Workgroup' method, 2 Win10(1 Pro,1
Home), 2 Win7 Pro, not important but of note router and isp support ipv6
-Homegroup service running on all
-All networked devices, ComputerName and shared folders present in
File/Windows Explorer in Navigation pan under Network
-Disabled Homegroup service on Win10 devices
-Restored 1703 via Acronis Image on both Win10 devices.
-All networked devices, ComputerName and shared folders present in
File/Windows Explorer in Navigation pan under Network
-Installed 1709 on both Win10 devices using Win10 1709 USB media
-Restarted each Win10 device and logged on using MSA(different MSA on each
Win10 device)
-Homegroup services enabled on both Win10 devicesm Homegroup not configured
- All devices and shares still present under File Explorer Network
navigation pane

I've repeated this same test multiple times with each feature
update(install, roll back, reinstall feature, check Networking and shares) -
Can't duplicate

If you google "computers disappear from network in windows 10" or something
similar, you will find many, many forum posts with the same problem. That
is computers disappearing from the network.

I even kept losing my own computer from the Network settings until Zaghadka
gave me the tips on how to solve it by disabling the homegroup services. I
posted a question in here a week or so ago under "Network broken in win10
again?" There ended up being a fairly long thread about it.

EGK wrote:
On Sat, 27 Jan 2018 15:04:31 -0500, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ
wrote:

EGK wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 15:13:55 -0500, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ
wrote:

EGK wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 22:51:46 +0800, "Mr. Man-wai Chang"
wrote:

On 26/1/2018 22:48, Char Jackson wrote:

I don't disable anything. I ignore both Homegroups and Workgroups, and
simply use IP addresses.

You really should disable unused services. Anyway....

I can't remember if you posted in that recent thread I created about Windows
10 networking being broken again? Zaghadka pointed out that every time
Windows 10 upgrades itself it re-enables all those Homegroup services which
often cause computers to disappear from the network even if you don't use
homegroups. It's a pain in the ass.

Char mentioned he doesn't care if he sees the computer names in network
settings.

Enabling HomeGroup services via Feature Update doesn't enable HomeGroup
networking in favor of standard Workgroup networking.

Homegroup will continue to appear(like it always has since Win7) in File
Explorer(aka Windows Explorer) navigation pane unless one forces its removal
via a registry tweak.

I haven't done any registry tweak and Homegroup is not showing in my file
explorer since I turned off the homegroup services. When a new upgrade
turns them on again, it will appear. That's when the problems start with
computers not showing up in the network settings. Whether you use homegroup
or not.

Can't duplicate with 1709 or 1703. 1607 did have a networking issue not
seeing devices in Navigatino pane/Network and corrected by KB3194798 in Oct.
2016
Earlier today
-4 total devices on the network using 'Workgroup' method, 2 Win10(1 Pro,1
Home), 2 Win7 Pro, not important but of note router and isp support ipv6
-Homegroup service running on all
-All networked devices, ComputerName and shared folders present in
File/Windows Explorer in Navigation pan under Network
-Disabled Homegroup service on Win10 devices
-Restored 1703 via Acronis Image on both Win10 devices.
-All networked devices, ComputerName and shared folders present in
File/Windows Explorer in Navigation pan under Network
-Installed 1709 on both Win10 devices using Win10 1709 USB media
-Restarted each Win10 device and logged on using MSA(different MSA on each
Win10 device)
-Homegroup services enabled on both Win10 devicesm Homegroup not configured
- All devices and shares still present under File Explorer Network
navigation pane

I've repeated this same test multiple times with each feature
update(install, roll back, reinstall feature, check Networking and shares) -
Can't duplicate

If you google "computers disappear from network in windows 10" or something
similar, you will find many, many forum posts with the same problem. That
is computers disappearing from the network.

I even kept losing my own computer from the Network settings until Zaghadka
gave me the tips on how to solve it by disabling the homegroup services. I
posted a question in here a week or so ago under "Network broken in win10
again?" There ended up being a fairly long thread about it.

Btdt...
- HomeGroup services is nowhere near the cause of the 'googled' noted
problems - many of which predate 1709 and 1703 and the 2016 1607 network
patch update noted previously.

Disabling HG services may work for you but falls short of being a fix-all
solution and rarely mentioned as a solution or needed.
i.e. presence of past issues with different causes remains insufficient to
support a generic claim that one thing(e.g. HomeGroup services) is a
solution for 'googled' data. But glad to hear it worked in your case, but
imo something else is in play.

The solutions and causes recommended most are previously covered in this and
another thread. Just a few noted below
- map by computer
- use ip addresses
- setup networking properly common Workgroup name
- SMB1.0 deprecation
- user caused
- 3rd party AV Client and/or Firewall
- etc.


--
...w¡ñ§±¤ñ
msft mvp windows experience 2007-2016, insider mvp 2016-2018