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Noob networking question - why does \\DESKTOP\pubshare\readthis.txt not work but \\192.168.1.5\pubshare\readthis.txt work just fine?



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 13th 18, 02:34 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
No_Name
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Posts: 38
Default Noob networking question - why does \\DESKTOP\pubshare\readthis.txt not work but \\192.168.1.5\pubshare\readthis.txt work just fine?

On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 06:45:46 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

Noob networking question - why does this command not work:
Start Run \\DESKTOP\pubshare\readthis.txt
But this command works just fine?
Start Run \\192.168.1.5\pubshare\readthis.txt

My overall goal is to set up a single password file on the LAN, but for
this question, the text file above is good enough of a test of the network.

Bear in mind I don't normally play with networking, so, the answer may be
something silly that I forgot to do.

Given two windows machines on the same LAN, here's how I set up the
network.
================================================= ===========================
1. Make sure the PC1 computer name isn't something created by Microsoft!
Start Settings System About Rename this PC (change name)
Device Name = DESKTOP
Restart
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_pubshare01.jpg
================================================= ===========================
1. Make a new folder on PC1 for public sharing:
mkdir c:\tmp\pubshare
================================================= ===========================
2. Right click on that folder on PC1:
Properties Sharing Share (select a username) Share
================================================= ===========================
3. That says "your folder is shared" to that user".
pubshare
\\DESKTOP\pubshare
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_pubshare02.jpg
================================================= ===========================
4. On PC2, as the same user, right click in "This PC" to
Add a network location Choose a custom network location
\\DESKTOP\pubshare

That didn't work for me, so I got the IP address using "ipconfig"
where the IP address worked fine:
\\192.168.1.7\pubshare

Where it asked "Type a name for this network location":
pubshare (192.168.1.7)

And it said "you have successfully created a network location:
As long as the IP address doesn't change, you're fine.
================================================= ===========================
5. It's easy to reproduce on PC2 using the Start Run dialog box:

This fails: Start Run \\DESKTOP\pubshare\readthis.txt
This works: Start Run \\192.168.1.7\pubshare\readthis.txt
================================================= ===========================
6. Maybe the domain name is the problem? (I never set one, I don't think).

On PC1: Start Settings Network & Internet
View your network properties
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_pubshare03.jpg

On PC2: It's similar
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_pubshare04.jpg
================================================= ===========================
Bearing in mind I may have made a dumb noob networking mistake, can you
point me in the right direction to getting this command to work on PC2?
Start Run \\DESKTOP\pubshare\readthis.txt
Where the eventual goal is a single location for a password file.
================================================= ===========================


Just a thought, but have you tried adding DESKTOP 192.168.107 to
your Hosts file? I add all my computers to HOSTS so that they can find
each other faster. I use the same HOSTS file on each box so they all
"know the same thing"
(I also use it to block bad web sites but that a Whole other thing)

Beamer Smith
Out on a limb, sawing Madly
Ads
  #2  
Old July 13th 18, 03:51 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 390
Default Noob networking question - why does \\DESKTOP\pubshare\readthis.txt not work but \\192.168.1.5\pubshare\readthis.txt work just fine?

On 12 Jul 2018 17:34:22 GMT, wrote:

Just a thought, but have you tried adding DESKTOP 192.168.107 to
your Hosts file?


As a debugging step, I documented that adding this to the HOSTS file
192.168.1.7 DESKTOP
works just fine - but that's a lousy workaround overall because it
should work without having to do add a static IP to the hosts file
just to get name resolution to work on Windows.

I'm sure if I add it to the LMHOSTS file, it will also work.
But that's not a "solution" - that's just an ugly workaround.

The problem is to figure out why NETBIOS isn't working on 1 computer.

Most of the people who have had this problem just threw commands at it,
which is what I've been doing up until now.

But now it's time to figure out how NETBIOS actually works.

To that end, this article seems useful:
How NetBIOS name resolution really works
"When NetBIOS problems occur they can be difficult to detect.
Understanding how NetBIOS works is the key"
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-netbios-name-resolution-really-works/

Apparently NETBIOS has four resolution steps:
1. The first resolution is to check the existing cache
2. The second resolution is to check the LMHOSTS file
%SYSTEMROOT%\SYSTEM32\DRIVERS\ETC\lmhosts
3. The third resolution is to contact a WINS server
4. The fourth resolution is a broadcast for the NETBIOS name

In this fourth step the TOPDESK PC will send a broadcast packet seeking the
DESKTOP PC which will respond *if* the DESKTOP PC gets that broadcast
packet - but - some routers may block that broadcast packet - so - I have
to find out if my transceiver is blocking the NETBIOS broadcast packet.

The first test of netbios name resolution is apparently this command:
From TOPDESK (giving the IP for DESKTOP below):
admin nbtstat -a 192.168.1.7
Node IpAddress: [192.168.1.7] Scope Id: []
NetBIOS Remote Machine Name Table
Name Type Status
---------------------------------------------
DESKTOP 00 UNIQUE Registered
WORKGROUP 00 GROUP Registered
DESKTOP 20 UNIQUE Registered
MAC Address = 00-23-58-E4-A6-F3
From DESKTOP (giving the IP for TOPDESK below)
admin nbstat -a 192.168.1.6
This works similarly to the above.

Note that the "00" means the "Workstation, Domain Name" resolved it.
And the "20" means the "File Server" resolved it.

Running that same command, but with the NETBIOS name instead, we get:
From DESKTOP:
admin nbtstat -a TOPDESK
Reports a successful resolution similar to the above.
From TOPDESK:
admin nbstat -a DESKTOP
This fails, reporting "Host not found."

On DESKTOP, I can display the cache using:
admin nbtstat -c
(which reported that TOPDESK was in the cache)
And I can clear the cache using:
admin nbtstat -R

When I tried the same on TOPDESK, there were "No names in cache",
which makes sense since it has never connected via NETBIOS to DESKTOP.

I'm pretty sure that the problem may very well be that the transceiver
attached to DESKTOP is "blocking" the NETBIOS broadcast requests.

One way to test that is to plug DESKTOP via Ethernet into the router
directly, thereby completely bypassing the WiFi transceiver, so that's what
I'll try next as a debugging step.

If that all of a sudden enables NETBIOS resolution, then my problem is in
the setup of the 2.4GH transceiver attached to the Ethernet which is
attached to the desktop (which doesn't have a WiFi card).

That transceiver is set to "Bridge" mode - and it may be blocking the
NETBIOS broadcast packets (I don't know that for a fact yet though).
  #3  
Old July 13th 18, 05:01 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 390
Default Noob networking question - why does \\DESKTOP\pubshare\readthis.txt not work but \\192.168.1.5\pubshare\readthis.txt work just fine?

On 13 Jul 2018 02:51:42 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

That transceiver is set to "Bridge" mode - and it may be blocking the
NETBIOS broadcast packets (I don't know that for a fact yet though).


BINGO!

That is the problem!
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_pubshare07.jpg
The *cause* of the NETBIOS name-resolution issue has been *identified*!

*The transceiver is apparently blocking the NETBIOS broadcast packets!*

The proof is that simply lugging the computer a few floors down to the
router, and plugging the computer directly into the router, instantly
solved all the SMB NETBIOS name-resolution problems.

Woo hoo! I love figuring out what the problem is!
*Thanks to all your purposefully helpful advice*

NOTE: I usually mark a thread SOLVED but this isn't solved so much as it is
IDENTIFIED as to why one Win10 computer wasn't recognized on the LAN by
other WIN10 computers using SMB NETBIOS name resolution.

It bothered me that almost never on the net did I find anyone who actually
identified the problem where everyone threw commands at the problem until
one of them worked - which I did too - but none of them worked!
(Well, the HOSTS & LMHOSTS will work - but those are hacks.)

NOTE: Yes I could figure out how to use tcpdump & wireshark to sniff out
the packets, but it's crystal clear now what is happening since simply
eliminating the outdoor transceiver temporarily solved the problem
instantly.

The outdoor transceiver is blocking the SMB NETBIOS broadcast packets!

There are a bunch of possible solutions:
1. Figure out how to set the transceiver to pass NETBIOS packets
2. Figure out how to set up a WINS server (which seems like overkill)
3. Or, add a WiFi card to the desktop (I don't have a spare though)
4. Or, just put the static IP address in the LMHOSTS or HOSTS file

I'll first read up on the transceiver software, to see if it's easy to get
the transceiver to pass SMB Netbios broadcast packets, and then, if that
doesn't pan out, I'll do one of the other three solutions.

Since none of those solutions involved Windows 10, per se, this thread is
pretty much over with from a Windows 10 standpoint.

Thanks everyone for your purposefully helpful advice!
(I won't need to post back unless a new solution comes to mind.)
  #4  
Old July 13th 18, 05:53 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
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Posts: 9,368
Default Noob networking question - why does \\DESKTOP\pubshare\readthis.txt not work but \\192.168.1.5\pubshare\readthis.txt work just fine?

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 04:01:40 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

NOTE: Yes I could figure out how to use tcpdump & wireshark to sniff out
the packets, but it's crystal clear now what is happening since simply
eliminating the outdoor transceiver temporarily solved the problem
instantly.

The outdoor transceiver is blocking the SMB NETBIOS broadcast packets!


Meanwhile, sane people are left wondering what manner of
misconfiguration led to you having an outdoor transceiver *inside* your
LAN. Not connecting your LAN to the Internet, but connecting one part of
your LAN to another part of your LAN.

I'm always amazed at what people come up with when they don't really
understand how to do something. I'm being serious. Sometimes the
creativity is just something to behold.

  #5  
Old July 13th 18, 09:49 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 390
Default Noob networking question - why does \\DESKTOP\pubshare\readthis.txt not work but \\192.168.1.5\pubshare\readthis.txt work just fine?

On 12 Jul 2018 20:53:48 GMT, Char Jackson wrote:

Meanwhile, sane people are left wondering what manner of
misconfiguration led to you having an outdoor transceiver *inside* your
LAN. Not connecting your LAN to the Internet, but connecting one part of
your LAN to another part of your LAN.

I'm always amazed at what people come up with when they don't really
understand how to do something. I'm being serious. Sometimes the
creativity is just something to behold.


I didn't provide enough detail for you to know that there isn't a single
device on my network outside the network (i.e., they're all on
192.168.1.x).

You can tell, actually, if you look at the screenshot, which proves that
the static IP address of the transceiver is on the same 192.168.1.x subnet:
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_pubshare07.jpg

To be a bit more precise, there is one of the many rooftop antennas that
picks up my Internet feed from a half-dozen miles away over the air from a
visible mountaintop, which is, of necessity, configured by the WISP and
which connects to the WISP's internal network of a 10.something address
where it bounces among the WISP mountaintop towers until it finally gets to
a fiber-optic cable in the ground).

But you would have no way of knowing that I happen to have about a dozen
transceivers scattered about my rather large house and property, which has
buildings that are a thousand feet from the house, all of which have
Internet access, and where here is a photo of just a handful of my radios,
for example:
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_wifi.jpg

Everyone in my area (which has no "cable") gets their Internet over the
air, and we all have cellular repeaters or towers inside our homes (I have
both a femtotower and a cellular repeater for example).

So while I don't know Windows networking, you can't survive in these hills
without some knowledge of transceivers (and water pumps, septic systems,
poison oak removal, chain saws, etc.).

As for this particular Windows PC setup, it's a desktop that doesn't have a
WiFi card, but it has an Ethernet RJ45 port, and I have plenty of spare
transceivers, so, I simply tied an Ethernet cable from the computer to an
outdoor transceiver which is pointed back at the house, only a couple
floors down.

The transceiver acts no differently than a WiFi card with an external
antenna would act, only if you look at the decibels in that screenshot,
you'll see that the WiFi signal can go for miles.

While this radio is set up as a bridge, almost all the other radios are set
up as powerful access points, where they easily send and receive to the
barn, for example, which is about a thousand feet away from the house.

In short, I have a *lot* of WiFi radios set up as access points and one as
a bridge, but all but the incoming Internet signal are on the same subnet,
where this particular bridge must be set up with a static IP address
because otherwise I wouldn't be able to easily log into it.
  #6  
Old July 13th 18, 10:19 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 390
Default Noob networking question - why does \\DESKTOP\pubshare\readthis.txt not work but \\192.168.1.5\pubshare\readthis.txt work just fine?

On 13 Jul 2018 08:49:09 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

I'm always amazed at what people come up with when they don't really
understand how to do something.


BTW, do you have a *better* idea?

How would you connect a desktop that has only an Ethernet RJ45 to the
router, which is a bunch of floors away if you don't use WiFi (and if you
don't snake more than a hundred feet of Cat5 cable through the walls)?

And if you do use WiFi, bear in mind that you need to match or exceed my
signal strength, where a dinky USB dongle or puny WiFi card wouldn't have
even close to an order of magnitude the power of the solution I use now.

Besides the fact that the dinky little USB dongles don't have the decibels
needed, they are a pain anyway, because they break off as you walk by the
case (ask me how I know) - and they're omni besides, which is a supreme
waste of power when power is what you need and when they don't have much
power to start with.

A puny WiFi card plugged into the motherboard with a good external
directional antenna attached would work, but the solution I'm using is,
essentially, that anyway - and - it is far more powerful - hence fewer
dropped packets.

While a good WiFi card would likely work, the difference is that I already
have plenty of spare radios, which can all transmit at (or even over) the
legal limit if I wanted them to, so I have all the power I need to reach
anywhere with a strong signal (which means better bandwidth).

As you must be aware, the fewer dropped packets, the better the bandwidth,
where those of you who have access to cable ISPs don't need to care about
such things, but we who get our Internet out of the sky care about SNR,
CCQ, and dBm/dBi ERP.

*However, I'm always open to better, more powerful, free solutions.*

If you think you have a *better* idea, let me know, but your "better" idea
better have better signal strength and fewer dropped packets than mine does
in order to qualify as "better". And I get all that power for free besides.

The *only* drawback of my method, which I've been using for years, is that
I just noticed that the transceiver doesn't seem to be passing SMB Netbios
broadcasts.

I'm certainly not going to buy a puny WiFi card to get worse bandwidth just
to pass SMB broadcasts, since a single line in the LMHOSTS or HOSTS file
will solve the netbios issues.

In summary, if you have a *better* idea, then I'm all ears as I love good
ideas from people who are purposefully helpful.
  #7  
Old July 13th 18, 04:34 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
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Posts: 9,368
Default Noob networking question - why does \\DESKTOP\pubshare\readthis.txt not work but \\192.168.1.5\pubshare\readthis.txt work just fine?

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 09:19:09 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 13 Jul 2018 08:49:09 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

I'm always amazed at what people come up with when they don't really
understand how to do something.


BTW, do you have a *better* idea?


Such a discussion would have to start with a site visit, and neither of
us wants that. I think you're using the tools that you have available to
cobble something together that 'works' for you. Is it a reference
network design that others should emulate? I would say no, but it's
yours and you get the final say. :-)

I know you've discussed some of that wireless architecture and
infrastructure with Jeff L, so you're aware of 2.4GHz channel
limitations, Fresnel zones, transmit power versus receive sensitivity,
interference sources, etc. I don't need to add anything there.

Without a site visit, the only 'better idea' I can suggest is to replace
as many of your intraLAN wireless links with Ethernet cable as possible,
especially inside the house. It's a one-time pain that pays off every
day afterwards. If your house is wired with TV coax, MoCA adapters will
let you use the coax to distribute Ethernet, albeit with a reduction in
throughput capability. On mine, instead of the 900+ Mbps that you'd
expect over GigE, the MoCA adapters max out at around 660 Mbps. That
works for me since I only use that link for streaming.

  #8  
Old July 13th 18, 07:02 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 390
Default Noob networking question - why does \\DESKTOP\pubshare\readthis.txt not work but \\192.168.1.5\pubshare\readthis.txt work just fine?

On 13 Jul 2018 07:34:29 GMT, Char Jackson wrote:

Such a discussion would have to start with a site visit, and neither of
us wants that.


There's no way you can come up with a better idea that wasn't already
considered, since the only other options a
a. Snake a cable through the walls, or,
b. Add WiFi directly to the PC, or,
c. Bring the APs closer (e.g., using repeaters and/or extenders)

In my house, I have *all* those options set up on various computers:
A. I have cables snaked in the basement to a wired repeater
B. I have some PCs with WiFi dongles & others with internal WiFi cards
C. I have *plenty* of APs scattered about

The only solution I haven't already implemented is a wireless repeater,
mainly because the old WRT54G that is the wired repeater in the basement
doesn't have the RAM to easily make it a wireless repeater, so I snaked a
wire to it to make it into a wired repeater for the grandkid's gaming
setup.

I think you're using the tools that you have available to
cobble something together that 'works' for you. Is it a reference
network design that others should emulate? I would say no, but it's
yours and you get the final say. :-)


I'm glad you understand that I love reuse of what I have available.

What's great "for me" about my setup, is not only that I already had the
antenna outside, and not only was there already a cable through the wall
running to that antenna (since it was an old, unused, previous WISP
antenna), but it took zero effort other than the effort to learn how to set
up the transceiver as a bridge (normally I set them up as access points).

Here's the cost/benefit breakdown:
a. It was free & easy since everything was already there
b. It took effort to figure out how to set the radio as a bridge

I know you've discussed some of that wireless architecture and
infrastructure with Jeff L, so you're aware of 2.4GHz channel
limitations, Fresnel zones, transmit power versus receive sensitivity,
interference sources, etc. I don't need to add anything there.


Yup. I'm impressed that you know that Jeff Liebermann and I have discussed
WiFi architecture countless times on s.e.r and a.i.w over the years, where
he is always helpful and probably one of the most knowledgeable guys on
both those newsgroups when it comes to the inevitable pros and cons (they
always both exist) of any WiFi setup.

Jeff is like I am, where he backs up everything he says, because his
credibility is worth something (unlike, for example, the nospam troll).

For the benefit of the readers here, what you mention are the following,
summarized succinctly to fit on a single line for each topic:
a. 2.4GHz suffers from noise in crowded areas due to channel limitations
b. 5GHz suffers from lack of penetration inside buildings
c. Fresnel zones are, essentially, obstructions "near" the beam pattern
d. The worst radio wins when a disparity in Tx/Rx power/sensitivity exists
e. A powerful radio "interferes" with "things" in nearby houses

Without a site visit, the only 'better idea' I can suggest is to replace
as many of your intraLAN wireless links with Ethernet cable as possible,
especially inside the house.


Yup. As noted above, there are only so many options that we all have.

Since I have tons of spare WiFi transceivers, I have one more option that
most of you don't have, but bear in mind each of these radios originally
cost a hundred to two hundred bucks and they're huge, compared to a WiFi
dongle.

It's a one-time pain that pays off every
day afterwards. If your house is wired with TV coax, MoCA adapters will
let you use the coax to distribute Ethernet, albeit with a reduction in
throughput capability.


Actually, mine "is" wired for coax, but I don't use it.
So that's a good idea to consider.

On mine, instead of the 900+ Mbps that you'd
expect over GigE, the MoCA adapters max out at around 660 Mbps. That
works for me since I only use that link for streaming.


For me, my speeds are lower, due to the fact that my connection to the
Internet is miles away on another mountain top.

BTW, one of the advantages of my radio setup is that I get, for free, an
extremely powerful spectrum analyzer out of the Ubiquiti radios, which
gives fantastic noise analysis via lovely real-time waterfall charts, which
is something you won't get with any solution that people on this newsgroup
are likely aware of.
https://ubnt.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/202812440/spectrum_analyzer_1.png

So I know exactly what "things" in the 2.4GHz and 5GHz spectrum exist,
e.g., baby monitors, microwave ovens, etc.

You don't get that spectrum analysis with "normal" WiFi channel analyzers.
https://help.ubnt.com/hc/en-us/articles/204950584-airMAX-How-to-Use-airView-to-Find-the-Best-Channel
 




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