Windows 10 Pro Insider Preview version 17692.1000 Breaks ClassicShell

On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 15:11:54 -0400, nospam wrote:

I probably don't have the skills required to have a meaningful conversation

not probably.

you don't.

Someday, nospam, you'll actually add on-topic value to a thread.

But not today.

On 24 Jun 2018 19:23:18 GMT, Stefan Ram wrote:
[i]
Notice there is absolutely no meaningful difference between the setup and
operation of the native Windows 10 cascade menu from the native Windows XP
cascade menu.

How do you open and navigate the native Windows 10 cascade menu
with the keyboard? With classic Windows, I can press:

[Win] [E] [P]

to open the menu, go to the folder "editor", the folder "pic"
and start "IrfanView".

That's a great question where the answer is that you both navigate and open
(and modify) a Windows 10 Cascade Menu using *just your mouse* the same way
you did it on Windows XP. (It's exactly the same menu.)
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_win10cascademenu01.jpg

I'm not sure about keyboard navigation only because I don't do *any*
keyboard navigation (I prefer mouse clicks for most things except control+x
and control+v and print-screen, etc.).

Also, you may likely use the "Programs" hierarchy, where, oh my God, you do
not want to hear what I have to say why one should *never* use anything
that Microsoft provides without making your own hierarchy *next* to that
"Programs" hierarchy, that only you maintain and control. (KEY POINT!)

However, since the WinXP Cascade Menu is simply a folder in a certain
location, just as the Win10 Cascade Menu is simply a folder in a certain
location, I would think appropriate key clicks, if that's what you want,
can be googled for and set but I don't do the keyclick stuff so I'd have to
look up how to reproduce the same keyboard shortcuts if you're dead set on
using only the keyboard and not the mouse in order to navigate, and edit
the Cascade Menu.

NOTE: I'm on record for decades having *never* ever ever ever NEVER NEVER
NEVER NEVER used the default "Programs" menu in *any* Microsoft-based
operating system (after learning my lesson trying to keep pollution out of
the default menus supplied by Microsoft). So if *that* is the exact menu
you want to access, we'll have huge philosophical hurdles to overcome,
since that menu is so filled with pollution that it's not worth salvaging
in any case. You'll note that even on WinXP, I never fall into the trap of
using the "Programs" menu, where we can discuss the valid reasons later.

Given that in both Windows XP and in Windows 10, my Cascade Menu is named
"menu", and it's next to the horridly polluted "Programs" menu (but never
ever inside it!!!!!)...

The location of my Win10 Cascade Menu is simply this folder tree:
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\menu\
Where, the example below shows a Cascade Menu link located at:
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\menu\editor\pic\IrfanView.lnk

A. Let's look at *mouse* navigation, first:
Just as in WinXP, you hit the menu icon (like you see in the picture):
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_my_win10_cascade_menu.jpg
Note that they're both called "menu" in both WinXP & in Win10.

You just left click on "menu", and then, say, on "editor" and then say, on
"pic" and then say on "irfanview" to start up IrfanView.

The *mouse* action of navigation is *exactly* the same on both WinXP as on
Win10 (it's the *same* folder tree - so nothing is different).
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_my_win10_cascade_menu.jpg

B. Let's look at *mouse* editing, next:
Just as in WinXP, you right click when you get to any given folder in the
cascade menu hierarchy and hit "Open". That puts you, whether you're on
WinXP or if you're on Win10, right in that menu folder hierarchy. You edit
the menu at that point *exactly* the same in Windows XP as in Windows 10.
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_win10cascademenu01.jpg

I don't see any difference with *mouse* navigation, and editing.
Do you?

As to your question about keyboard shortcuts, I don't do keyboard shortcuts
on WinXP nor on Win10, but why would they be any different on Windows XP
than Windows 10 for a custom menu named "menu" which is NOT in the
"Programs" menu (by design) but right next to it on the hard drive?
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_win10cascademenu01.jpg

On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 18:56:52 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 10:41:28 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:

Fair enough. "15+ years" falls within the definition of "three or more
years", but some of the significance is lost. And if you don't like GN,
there are many, many others.

I probably don't have the skills required to have a meaningful conversation
with you on this topic snip

*Nod* Understood. Thanks for recognizing that.

On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 20:06:49 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:

I probably don't have the skills required to have a meaningful conversation
with you on this topic snip

*Nod* Understood. Thanks for recognizing that.

What is obvious about you chit-chat experts, such as nospam, Wolf K, Nil,
Diesel, and you in some regards, is that you have no real value to add, so,
all you *can* do is your idle chit chat.

Each of you, in order to say *something* (anything), tries to be childishly
"clever' with your repartee, playing on words, with your incessant silly
semantic games (where both nospam and Frank Slootweg have far more
experience than you have).

Since you all lack any technical value - all you *can* do, is chit chat.

Hence, I acceded to you, Char Jackson, and to the chit-chat experts nospam,
Wolf K., Frank Slootweg, Nil, Diesel, Chris, and even Mayayana (based on
his recent useless chit-chat posts), that your gleefully self-described
clever ability to play silly semantic games is *far superior* to my
technical contribution indeed!

*You are a childishly clever chit chatter indeed, Char Jackson!*

On 24 Jun 2018 20:56:24 GMT, Stefan Ram wrote:

I don't know. That's why I was asking.

I think you bring up a good question, which is, apparently, that you
navigate (and modify) the WinXP Cascade Menu using keyboard clicks, whereas
I navigate (and modify) it using mouse clicks.

You probably also use the *default* "Programs" menu on WinXP, where I never
do (for reasons that you don't want to hear because I will talk your ear
off if you ask.

So our use model on WinXP isn't the same even when we're on XP:
a. You use "Programs" (most likely); I use "menu" (next to "Programs")
b. You use keyboard shortcuts; I use mouse clicks.

On Win10, I use the *same* strategy for the Win10 Cascade Menu as on XP:
a. I use "menu" (next to "Programs")
b. I use mouse clicks.

I can't answer your question on the keyboard shortcuts though.
Maybe someone who knows keyboard shortcuts better than we do, can help.

The amazing thing about traditional menus is that they
support both a mouse-oriented and a keyboard-oriented
user style.

Until you mentioned the keyboard-oriented user style, I wasn't considering
it (I think, oh, many many many years ago I tried it, and didn't like it),
but it's a perfectly valid style.

I'm on record for saying two things about your suggested style:
1. It's perfectly valid - so I hope someone answers the question, and,
2. I don't see why it wouldn't work on Win10 just like WinXP since the
menus are exactly the same and both the WinXP and Win10 "menu" is right
next to the WinXP & Win10 "Programs" menu.

I don't see any difference whatsoever - but I still can't answer your
keyboard question because I don't have experience with the keyboard
shortcuts.

It's a good question though.
I hope someone has the answer for you.

But I already got my personal solution: Autohotkey.
It allows one to build menus that can be opened with hotkeys
and be operated using the keyboard (or the mouse). One could
use it to create something like the classical start menu.
But the definition of keys and menus with Authotkey is more
accessible to "advanced" users, because one configures it by
writing a kind of a script (a program).

Good for you to find a 3rd party solution that works well for you.

I used to use the Classic Shell but I've had so many problems with
Microsoft breaking things that I recently decided (back in February) to try
to just wrestle Microsoft native software into doing what I want it to do.

That idea of microsoft to copy a touch interface for their
desktop OS because touch devices are very successful today
seems to be a kind of cargo-cult management.

I agree with your sentiment, especially as I don't have touch screens.

I recently started wrestling the orthodox Start Menu and the heterodox
Start Menu, and the Cascade Menu into consistent groups where here are my
current works in progress...

1. Win10 Cascade Menu
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_menu1.png
2. Win10 Orthodox Start Menu:
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_menu2.png
3. Win10 Heterodox Start Menu:
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_menu3.png

Tutorial:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/eWU-jOkFRtU